[FullRangeMan]

37cm is good for soudstage. When I was setting my Carver Amazing just moving the panels 3-4cm made a big improvement in the sound.

When the panels was properly adjusted the soundstage was bigger than the room (330 x 375cm);

[seikosha]

A few quick thoughts to improve the soundstaging

1) The height of your omega driver seems pretty high.  I think it'd be best if it were pointing approximately at ear level when you are sitting.

2) Definitely get rid of the table between you and the speakers.

3) How far away are your ears from the drivers vs each driver from itself?  I've found that a good starting point for me when setting up speakers is that you'll get good sound if the distance from the driver to your ears is about 10% longer than the distance between each driver.

4) Is there open space behind your sitting position?  For me, imaging and soundstage suffer if there isn't open space behind my seating position.

5) Experiment with toe in position.  Sometimes one can get really good results with extreme toe in where the speakers are pointing in front of the listening position.

Good luck.

[FullRangeMan]

A few quick thoughts to improve the soundstaging

1) The height of your omega driver seems pretty high.  I think it'd be best if it were pointing approximately at ear level when you are sitting.

2) Definitely get rid of the table between you and the speakers.

3) How far away are your ears from the drivers vs each driver from itself?  I've found that a good starting point for me when setting up speakers is that you'll get good sound if the distance from the driver to your ears is about 10% longer than the distance between each driver.

4) Is there open space behind your sitting position?  For me, imaging and soundstage suffer if there isn't open space behind my seating position.

5) Experiment with toe in position.  Sometimes one can get really good results with extreme toe in where the speakers are pointing in front of the listening position.

Good luck.

Item 1 depend on the personal taste.

Item 2: I dont wished to be so assertive before because Guy had a also assertive wife, but I definitely agree this item.

Item 3 would be a good test.

Item 4 are very true.

Item 5: maybe I would like toe in this speaker.

[Guy 13]

A few quick thoughts to improve the soundstaging

1) The height of your omega driver seems pretty high.  I think it'd be best if it were pointing approximately at ear level when you are sitting.

2) Definitely get rid of the table between you and the speakers.

3) How far away are your ears from the drivers vs each driver from itself?  I've found that a good starting point for me when setting up speakers is that you'll get good sound if the distance from the driver to your ears is about 10% longer than the distance between each driver.

4) Is there open space behind your sitting position?  For me, imaging and soundstage suffer if there isn't open space behind my seating position.

5) Experiment with toe in position.  Sometimes one can get really good results with extreme toe in where the speakers are pointing in front of the listening position.

Good luck.

Hi seikosha and FULLRANGMAN.
(My wife had a dog called Seiko...
I know: So what ? ? ?)
O.K. back to the main topic.
Thanks both of you for your advice.
1) The height of the Omega 7F driver are at exactly 1 meter/39"
and when I am sitting, that's exactly in line with my ears.
2) I will temporally displace the red table, but even before it was there, I had the same problem and that's a fact.
3) Driver to ear is 5 feet, between the L & R drover 3 feet
and behind the speakers there's 6 feet.
4) See pictures below.
    I can push back by 12" the curtains and that's about it.
5) I will move around the speaker and change the angle (Toe).
I will do that this week and get back toward the end of the week
with some results.
Thanks.

Guy 13

[Canada Rob]

Hello Guy,

FULLRANGEMAN  and seikosha give some good advise here, so I won't repeat what they have said.  Allow me to add my two cents worth.  Try toeing in your speakers so you can just see the inside side surface of the red cabinets from your listening position.  Move your speakers apart a little to get closer to an equilateral triangle between you and them.  General rule of thumb is to have the center of the 7F at the height of your ears whether by having them the same height as your ears, tilted up to them, or tilted down to them, when in your listening position.

Another thing that can effect imaging is the tonal balance of the system.  Too much top end can make the system sound forward, too little top end can deepen the soundstage but at the expense of detail and air.  Of course all these things can be effected not only by the speakers themselves, but also the upline equipment.  Does the soundstage depth change with different sources, different tubes etc.?

[Canada Rob]

Hello Guy,

General rule of thumb is to have the center of the 7F at the height of your ears whether by having them the same height as your ears, tilted up to them, or tilted down to them, when in your listening position.

I made a change in the wording here, as I was not as clear as I could have been.  My apologies.  CR

[Guy 13]

Hello Guy,

FULLRANGEMAN  and seikosha give some good advise here, so I won't repeat what they have said.  Allow me to add my two cents worth.  Try toeing in your speakers so you can just see the inside side surface of the red cabinets from your listening position.  Move your speakers apart a little to get closer to an equilateral triangle between you and them.  General rule of thumb is to have the center of the 7F at the height of your ears whether by having them the same height as your ears, tilted up to them, or tilted down to them, when in your listening position.

Another thing that can effect imaging is the tonal balance of the system.  Too much top end can make the system sound forward, too little top end can deepen the soundstage but at the expense of detail and air.  Of course all these things can be effected not only by the speakers themselves, but also the upline equipment.  Does the soundstage depth change with different sources, different tubes etc.?

HI CR
Thanks for the info.
I have to choose day that I am in good physical shape and start moving things around as per all the suggestions.
I think the sound stage depth did increase a little (Not too sure about it) with my cheap Sony SS receiver.
Anyway, I will get back here when I have exhausted all the suggestion of all the AC members.
It's gona be a long and tiring day.
Thanks all.

Guy 13 

[Guy 13]

Hi all.
A follow up on what I did to improve the size of the soundstage
of my system.
First I pushed back by about 6"/15cm the audio rack.
Second, I've put more space between the speakers.
Now it's 5'/150cm center to center.
I've toed in the drivers so they fire right in front of my face.
The drivers are still at my ear level.
I've remove the small red table, but did not make any change.
I could not push back the big shelving in the back of the sofa, so it staed the same.
Now after doing all that, guess what ?
I will nt sue the word deeper sound stage, but let me put it with my own words.
I hope it will make sense to you.
The sound stage is now bigger, more impressive, a little more realistic, ]
it's still not as deep as I would like, but I have enough improvement to stop now all that furniture and heavy stuff moving around.
To me, now the sound is good enough to keep me happy and enjoy the music.
Thanks to all for your suggestion.
Here some pictures of my new set up, if you don't agree and/or want to suggest more changes, well forget it, I am not moving anything, that's it and that's all.

Guy 13






 

[Guy 13]

Hi all.
For my new set up or my re-arranged set up,
the word that describe best the sound is:
Ambiance,
I have a bigger more impressive than before ambiance effect.
I have used the Chesky Binaural CD to test my re-arranged system.

Guy 13

[FullRangeMan]

OK, this inprovements are expected. My additional suggestions are remove that red table to maybe behind the sofa you seat, and also remove the black chair Iam seeing at just right of the loudspeaker.

This will do some more free space to the soundstage stretch his legs.
Dipole and bipolar loudspeakers must sit is a surrounding free space.

[Guy 13]

OK, this inprovements are expected. My additional suggestions are remove that red table to maybe behind the sofa you seat, and also remove the black chair Iam seeing at just right of the loudspeaker.

This will do some more free space to the soundstage stretch his legs.
Dipole and bipolar loudspeakers must sit is a surrounding free space.

Hi FULLRANGEMAN.
I already removed the small red table and it did not make any difference.
For the black Chinese chair, I don't it makes any difference being there or not, but what do I have to loose?
I will do that right now and get back to you in about 20 minutes.
See you later alligator.

Guy 13

[seikosha]

.
I have used the Chesky Binaural CD to test my re-arranged system.

Guy 13

Guy, you might want to try some other CD's.  Binaural recordings can sound kind of funny sometimes with speaker systems.  They are miked specifically to give the best results with headphones.  I know Chesky states that their binaural methods work better than traditional binaural for conventional speaker setups but I've got a Chesky binaural CD that at times can sound really odd (soundstaging characteristics) on my system and I wouldn't use it for reference purposes.

[Guy 13]

Guy, you might want to try some other CD's.  Binaural recordings can sound kind of funny sometimes with speaker systems.  They are miked specifically to give the best results with headphones.  I know Chesky states that their binaural methods work better than traditional binaural for conventional speaker setups but I've got a Chesky binaural CD that at times can sound really odd (soundstaging characteristics) on my system and I wouldn't use it for reference purposes.

Hi FULLRANGMAN and seikosha.
Sorry about getting back to you so late,
I know I said I would be back in 20 minutes,
but some many things to try at the same time.
I've removed (Again) the small red table,
put it back, remove it again, put it back gain.
No change.
I've remove the black Chinese chair.
Again, no change.
I've tried three different CDs.
Chesky binaural,
Stereophile at the concert or something like that.
Diana Krall.
Another well recorded CD which I don't recall the name.
The sound stage varies a lot depending on the recording and even on the same CD from track to track the soundstage can be quite different, depending on how it was recorded and you was the sound engineer.
The sound seams thin in between the speakers.
I mean that it looks like the sound comes more from the speakers than from the middle, the middle sounds a little empty.
So, what I did is to get the speakers a few inches closer to each other
and it did improve the imaging, minds you, the soundstage don't sound deeper, but maybe yes...
So for now that's enough.
Don't suggest any furniture moving I am out of breath
and I am not Hulk Holgan, therefore I have to regain my strenght...
If I do more adjustments to my system, I am sure it will only bring minor improvement.
No, I am not pessemistic.

Guy 13

[rollo]

  Hey Guy. When you catch your breath realize you have a nearfield set up. With nearfield a triangular set up with equal distance between listener and speakers. I would suggest trying aiming the tweeters just outside your shoulders. If you feel energetic enough try the tweeters on the outside again aiming at shoulders.
   As far as the drape behind you that is OK. Can you slide the drape to open room ? You may also consider adding some absorption panels at front wall. Depth should improve with the panels. To experiment use a blanket or similar material. Some like diffusion on front wall however the open baffle may not oblige. Experiment.
   With toe in stop when the speakers totally disappear. The 6Ft behind the speaker is VG, leave that be. An after market tweak Herbie's carpet sliders are highly recommended they will open up the sound stage even more when speakers are decoupled from floor, any floor.
    Guy if you find a copy of the Sheffield/XLO set up and break in CD it allows you to fine tune your set up. Tracks with depth, width and in and out of phase signals are very helpfull.
    Have fun take your time and enjoy the results. BTW please consider using compressed wool felt in lieu of the foam and stuff. It will eliminate the reflections from the tweeter off the woofer box as well as the tweeter panel.  Nice speakers there Kido.


charles

[Guy 13]

  Hey Guy. When you catch your breath realize you have a nearfield set up. With nearfield a triangular set up with equal distance between listener and speakers. I would suggest trying aiming the tweeters just outside your shoulders. If you feel energetic enough try the tweeters on the outside again aiming at shoulders.
   As far as the drape behind you that is OK. Can you slide the drape to open room ? You may also consider adding some absorption panels at front wall. Depth should improve with the panels. To experiment use a blanket or similar material. Some like diffusion on front wall however the open baffle may not oblige. Experiment.
   With toe in stop when the speakers totally disappear. The 6Ft behind the speaker is VG, leave that be. An after market tweak Herbie's carpet sliders are highly recommended they will open up the sound stage even more when speakers are decoupled from floor, any floor.
    Guy if you find a copy of the Sheffield/XLO set up and break in CD it allows you to fine tune your set up. Tracks with depth, width and in and out of phase signals are very helpfull.
    Have fun take your time and enjoy the results. BTW please consider using compressed wool felt in lieu of the foam and stuff. It will eliminate the reflections from the tweeter off the woofer box as well as the tweeter panel.  Nice speakers there Kido.


charles

Hi Charles.
Before shutting down the computer for the night,
I made a last check to see if I have received more messages
from my friends at AC
and sure enough I got a message from you.
Wow, that's interesting stuff you posted.
Let me recharge my human batteries
and I will re-read your suggestions
and get back to you with some (Fresh) comments.
Thanks.

Guy 13
Now I am really shutting down my computer, see you tomorrow,
that is if God does not want me in heaven.

[rollo]

  Good night pleasant dreams. Hopefully God will wait awhile for you.


charles

[Guy 13]

  Hey Guy. When you catch your breath realize you have a nearfield set up. With nearfield a triangular set up with equal distance between listener and speakers. I would suggest trying aiming the tweeters just outside your shoulders. If you feel energetic enough try the tweeters on the outside again aiming at shoulders.
   As far as the drape behind you that is OK. Can you slide the drape to open room ? You may also consider adding some absorption panels at front wall. Depth should improve with the panels. To experiment use a blanket or similar material. Some like diffusion on front wall however the open baffle may not oblige. Experiment.
   With toe in stop when the speakers totally disappear. The 6Ft behind the speaker is VG, leave that be. An after market tweak Herbie's carpet sliders are highly recommended they will open up the sound stage even more when speakers are decoupled from floor, any floor.
    Guy if you find a copy of the Sheffield/XLO set up and break in CD it allows you to fine tune your set up. Tracks with depth, width and in and out of phase signals are very helpfull.
    Have fun take your time and enjoy the results. BTW please consider using compressed wool felt in lieu of the foam and stuff. It will eliminate the reflections from the tweeter off the woofer box as well as the tweeter panel.  Nice speakers there Kido.


charles

Hi Charles.
I just did some speaker moving, inch by inch and for now that's
the best I can do. I will do some positioning according to your suggestions
each time I do some listening.
For the drape/curtain I did open them up manually.
Not easy, I have to do it by hand climbing like a monkey at the tip of my toes
on a shaky chair.
But, it's done.
I think it did a noticeable improvement to the sound.
Look as if the sound stage is a little deeper and more room filling.
I said I think, I will have to do more listening with the drape open,
then close and open again, then close again...
Until I can be 100% of the improvement.
Herbie's carpet sliders, humm mmm...
Sorry to say I don't believe in that type of gadget.
How do I know it's not working or it has little effect on the sound.
Well, honestly, I don't know, so if I don't know, then,
I should shut-up and try them, but Herbie's stuff is not within my budget.
Sorry about that, I don't want to insult no one with my (Ignorant) comments.
{{copy of the Sheffield/XLO }} interesting, but where should I look ?
As for the top of the woofer box I will try to find some compressed wool, but maybe you don't know, here it's planet Vietnam, any audio stuff that you guys take for granted, here it's as rare as martian rock.
If I could import some fiberglass or the same, I would do it and acoustlcally treat my listening room and I am sure it would improve the sound, but like they say:
No money, no candy and in my case:
No money/microscopic budget = no audio stuff.
Thanks for the advises, you did not loose you time, I will follow your recommendations, slowly, but surely.

Guy 13
Thanks for the compliment.
I need some grills, but that can wait, I have more urgent priorities.

 

[rollo]

Good Morning Guy. You can Google for compressed wool products. Maybe Jim Gouldring here can help you. Herbie's products are very affective and they have a 30 day money back guarantee. If and when you can try them you will hear the difference. No ignorant comments at all just no experience with them that's all. The key is to decouple the speakers from the floor. They will open up even more. You can make your own with some research about decoupling.  Maybe I can make or get a copy for you as it is out of print. PM me your mailing address.  A very useful tool for getting position and final toe in.
     No need to spend big bucks you have what you need just some fine tuning to tie it all together. BTW how many hours do you have on the new drivers ? maybe they are not fully broken in yet ??
     Simple and inexpensive stuff like tightening the ground on your electric service and receptacle feeding system. Wire management. Cleaning contacts periodically, demagnetising system once a month. Decoupling of components to stand especially CDP. All these tweaks pay off when the basics are correct. Meaning speaker set up and room treatment. One the speakers and room is right then the tweaks will be more evident and easy to discern. tweaks will NOT improve a bad combo of gear or poor room. They will only enhance what you have.
    BTW never do I feel I wasted time here. It is fun and rewarding to help out.


charles
   

[Guy 13]

Good Morning Guy. You can Google for compressed wool products. Maybe Jim Gouldring here can help you. Herbie's products are very affective and they have a 30 day money back guarantee. If and when you can try them you will hear the difference. No ignorant comments at all just no experience with them that's all. The key is to decouple the speakers from the floor. They will open up even more. You can make your own with some research about decoupling.  Maybe I can make or get a copy for you as it is out of print. PM me your mailing address.  A very useful tool for getting position and final toe in.
     No need to spend big bucks you have what you need just some fine tuning to tie it all together. BTW how many hours do you have on the new drivers ? maybe they are not fully broken in yet ??
     Simple and inexpensive stuff like tightening the ground on your electric service and receptacle feeding system. Wire management. Cleaning contacts periodically, demagnetising system once a month. Decoupling of components to stand especially CDP. All these tweaks pay off when the basics are correct. Meaning speaker set up and room treatment. One the speakers and room is right then the tweaks will be more evident and easy to discern. tweaks will NOT improve a bad combo of gear or poor room. They will only enhance what you have.
    BTW never do I feel I wasted time here. It is fun and rewarding to help out.


charles
   

Hi Charles.
Thanks for all your suggestions, but my problem is that I am living on planet Vietnam.
Everything heading this way is always expensive due to transport and custom and it's not always convenient
to ask relatives to bring stuff for me to Vietnam and returning stuff takes time and again it's expensive.
The cost of living here is cheap but all other things are expensive, especially when you are living on your monthly retirement checks.
Right now I have between 50 to 100 hours on my Omega 7F.
I often take a piece of paper and write down ideas and what to do, etc...
Soon I will do that.
Thanks for your time.
I will keep all AC members aware of what I did and what improvements in sound showed up.

Guy 13
I would say that right now I am 90% satisfied with my system.
Not bad !

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi all.
A follow up on what I did to improve the size of the soundstage
of my system.
First I pushed back by about 6"/15cm the audio rack.
Second, I've put more space between the speakers.
Now it's 5'/150cm center to center.
I've toed in the drivers so they fire right in front of my face.
The drivers are still at my ear level.
I've remove the small red table, but did not make any change.
I could not push back the big shelving in the back of the sofa, so it staed the same.
Now after doing all that, guess what ?
I will nt sue the word deeper sound stage, but let me put it with my own words.
I hope it will make sense to you.
The sound stage is now bigger, more impressive, a little more realistic, ]
it's still not as deep as I would like, but I have enough improvement to stop now all that furniture and heavy stuff moving around.
To me, now the sound is good enough to keep me happy and enjoy the music.
Thanks to all for your suggestion.
Here some pictures of my new set up, if you don't agree and/or want to suggest more changes, well forget it, I am not moving anything, that's it and that's all.

Guy 13

Hi guy13

Nice speakers!!!
Are they a mix of ob and closed box?
I dont see a tweeter there?

cheers