AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Ellis Audio => Topic started by: BrianM on 8 Dec 2007, 09:53 pm
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I've always preferred letting the sound travel a bit (as the room allows) before it hits my ears, and toeing in for better imaging. Or so I thought, until today I was romping with my 9 month old on the floor about 4 feet from the speakers, with a cellist sawing away, and thought, huh, gee... Moved my chair up to only about 7-8 feet away, speakers are just over a foot from the front wall, and now with the toe-in pointing well behind me. And I was shocked -- shocked! -- at how good the stage + imaging still was. Plus I felt delightfully closer to the stage (go figure), but without feeling too close. So one glass of red into it and I'm growing more intrigued. Even big orchestral works work great this way.
Just wondering how many people enjoy their 1801s in this reach-out-and-touch way, and wondering if I'll ever go back...
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My speakers are at about 5 1/2 feet for most of my listening, but they have to be for my work which involves critical listening 1/2 the time.
Have you tried the same with the axes crossing just in front of you? I match the angles by moving my head straight back from my listening position until I can see the same amount of the outside surfaces of each speaker.
Call me weird, but I really like to hear what is on the recording, and the less of your room you hear the more of the recording space (if there is one) you hear.
I really like the sound of good speakers outdoors, even though there is no room "help".
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My drivers are about six feet from my ears.
Mike
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I've got my main Lorelei's 3.3' away from the front wall so in my 17' long room, I'm a little over 6' away from my main Lorelei's and 4' away from my rear Lorelei's,,,,,,,,,,,, just right. :drool: :lol: I would only like to be another foot or so if I had a longer room but I know I wouldn't want to be any closer. I have very little toe-in and when I've tried moving up to 4' away, I lose the whole soundstage depth and in my system, that's it's strongest feature.
Cheers,
Robin
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Russell-
I have tried crossing axes but not yet at so close a listening position. That'll be tomorrow's experiment, I'm on glass #3 (Saturday night baby) by now and I hate screwing and unscrewing floor spikes. Well. I guess if it's just toeing them I don't have to. Heh. :wine: Btw I use the same method for checking the angle (I thought I invented that!)
Robin-
I agree that the depth seems better this way, more the sense of people playing behind the speakers. Don't know if that's more the distance from the front wall or the listener proximity. I'd like to hear the Lorelei's some time, heard only good things about them. (That's a Scanspeak 8545 right?)
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I used to have my Ellis' in a largeish 18x30 room. I think they like the breathing room but need power as well. I have moved them to small 11x12 room where I do my listening these days. The bonus is I can drive them plenty loud with a little 16 watt dared integrated. I actually have mine about 3 or 4 feet out into the room (They seem to like to be away from walls in both rooms) and have been playing them with no toe in until I read this. They are about 7 or 8 feet from my ears so definately nearfield equal sided triangle. So I am as I type trying them crossing in front of me to see what I think. Got Kurt Elling's latest warming up on the cd player and the imaging does seem to be a little better.
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Al I ever do is near-field listening. It's tough to go back any other way.
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with very small two ways on stands, or any other speaker that can be listened to very close, you should try ultra nearfield listening sometime.
I had a set up where the speakers were about 2 feet from my ears on either side of a comfortable armchair, axes crossing about at my nose. The experience was very immersive.
These were custom made for the purpose (I made them) and were two ways with KEF B110s and T27s. They were very narrow floor standing transmission lines.
They were designed to fill a gap in the market which I think still exists - namely a wide range small speaker with low output capability but with serious bass extension for the size and price. They were aimed squarely at apartment dwellers.
I shocked more than one visitor with them - the more aware of things sonic they were, the more shocked. You just did not expect that sort of bass extension from a 4 incher.
This was in '81. The amp was variously the small NAD 3020, the Advent receiver and finally a Haffler kit (101?). You can tell I was on a budget!
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Russell-
I have tried crossing axes but not yet at so close a listening position. That'll be tomorrow's experiment, I'm on glass #3 (Saturday night baby) by now and I hate screwing and unscrewing floor spikes. Well. I guess if it's just toeing them I don't have to. Heh. :wine: Btw I use the same method for checking the angle (I thought I invented that!)
Robin-
I agree that the depth seems better this way, more the sense of people playing behind the speakers. Don't know if that's more the distance from the front wall or the listener proximity. I'd like to hear the Lorelei's some time, heard only good things about them. (That's a Scanspeak 8545 right?)
Yep,,,, 8545 carbon fiber Scan Speak and 9700 soft dome Scan Speak tweeter. In my system, that's what I'm all about,,, that being having the sense of the soundfield coming from beyond the speakers,,, up there between the front wall and the ceiling. It may not be accurate but it's entertaining as hell. :lol:
Cheers,
Robin
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Unfortunately with the Thiels I cannot listen nearfield as Jim Thiel recommends at least 12 ft distance. When I had the AudioNOte AN-E speakers one of the things I relished was to sit up close to the speakers (probably as close as 5 ft) and the musical experience made me feel I was in a jazz club or within spitting range of the singer, orchestra.
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I've always preferred letting the sound travel a bit (as the room allows) before it hits my ears, and toeing in for better imaging. Or so I thought, until today I was romping with my 9 month old on the floor about 4 feet from the speakers, with a cellist sawing away, and thought, huh, gee... Moved my chair up to only about 7-8 feet away, speakers are just over a foot from the front wall, and now with the toe-in pointing well behind me. And I was shocked -- shocked! -- at how good the stage + imaging still was. Plus I felt delightfully closer to the stage (go figure), but without feeling too close. So one glass of red into it and I'm growing more intrigued. Even big orchestral works work great this way.
Just wondering how many people enjoy their 1801s in this reach-out-and-touch way, and wondering if I'll ever go back...
Brian,
I think that you will find that the best setup for your speakers is to have them close, about a foot out from the back of the speaker, to the wall, toed in to the top of the equilateral triangle of the equal distance between them, provided that they are 2-3 feet away from a side wall. Then it doesn't really matter where you sit to listen and enjoy.
Near field will always get you the best listening in most any setup. But it's not always the most comfortable listening position. The setup described above should let you be flexible with listening position. Most setups do have a "best" position at the top of the equilateral triangle of the equal distance between the speakers, irregardless of position in the room. But the "sweet spot" is smallish.
Steve
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My experience on near field listening is just as eye-opening as my discovery of room treatment. It sounded a little weird at first, but once you're accustom to it, you will appreciate what it does - it brings you so much closer to the singer, it's as if she/he is singing right on your nose.
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Hi,
I sit 9 feet from my speakers. Is this considered near field?
Regards
Rod
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Hi,
I sit 9 feet from my speakers. Is this considered near field?
Regards
Rod
Rod....
Here's a little rundown on nearfield listening.... :thumb:
1. Bring your speakers into the room, two or three feet away from the back wall, as a start.
2. Set them well apart, a minimum of six feet, I would say.
3. Set your initial listening position at the same distance away from the center as the speakers are apart. For example, if the speakers are seven feet apart, start your listening tests by sitting seven feet from the center.
4. Move gradually closer and, using well recorded music selections, listen carefully for improvement in width, depth and imaging.
5. With each move forward, toe in your speakers so that each one aims at the side of your face nearest it. Don't overdo it. You must still be able to see the inner side of each speaker.
6. Wait for that magic moment when you get maximum width and optimum depth.
If you find that sounds are coming almost exclusively from each speaker and there is a vast empty space where the stage used to be, you're definitely too close.
(Listening in the Nearfield by Albert Simon)
(http://www.sweetwater.com/NearField/graphics/diagram6.gif)
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Hi,
I sit 9 feet from my speakers. Is this considered near field?
Regards
Rod
Only in Texas.
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(http://user.txcyber.com/~wd5iqr/tcl/texas.gif) (http://user.txcyber.com/~wd5iqr/tcl/texas.gif)
(http://user.txcyber.com/~wd5iqr/tcl/texas.gif)
............. :lol:
Only in Texas
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I do both nearfield and "farfield".
While at the computer I'm about 11 feet back (but still "in-line").
In "the" chair I'm in a 68 inch equilateral triangle ala Cardias (speakers 68 inches from front wall and 40 inches from side walls).
Speakers are toed in to cross behind my head in "the" chair for imaging and to tweak the highs from my 8 inch tweeter (I use single driver speakers).
BTW you ain't never heard nearfield done right until you've tried it with a single driver speaker.
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I run 3 set of speakers in the near field position. All are toed-in about 5 degrees. You can tell when the toe-in angle is right because the sound stage blooms.
There are advantages in listening to near field....detail, detail, detail.
There are disadvantages in listening to near field.....detail, detail, detail.
Therefore, you can hear the the base noise of your amplification system and if you listen to vinyl, the LPs have to be ultra clean.
I love the set up.
Surround sound with 2 speakers.
Wayner
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My previous speakers had metal tweeters that tended to draw attention to themselves. I'd tried nearfield with them but it didn't really work. They were also big speakers that needed room I guess. Perhaps I've been biased against nearfield listening since that time. My initial impression of the 1801s was that they needed a bit of room, too. I think there's a psychological element to sitting "too close" i.e. you're secretly afraid your eardrums might start to bleed.
Anyways, with my recent monkeying around I've concluded these speakers sound good all kinds of ways, but that it's really no "louder" when sitting closer, and there are actually fewer room reflections (I think) which would of course convey unwanted loudness.
Don't know if I have it perfect yet but right now speakers are about 8' apart and I'm about 8' from the center, toe-in is aimed at both cheeks...and it sounds frigging amazing. My best audiophile tracks have gone from sounding just kick-ass, to laugh-out-loud good. :duh: Definitely more of an enveloping effect. Ray Charles' "Genius Loves Company" isn't my favorite album but Ray is in the room in a scary way. I can tell what kind of toothpaste Alison Krauss used before she left for the studio. Dyno-mite! Also feels like I'm listening to the orchestra from just behind the conductor's podium.
Thanks for all the input people..
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With my VR4JRs I am about 8-9 feet away , about a foot shy of equilateral. But the toe-in is weird - I hardly use any at all. I don't seem to lose image focus, the tonal balance is better and the stage is w i d e.
I hear other JR owners say they do the same thing - point-em straight out.
Not sure what property of the speaker allows for this - May be some kind of flaw that is reduced by listening off-angle?
As we say around here - "DKDC" (don't know don't care)
But it works for me.
-Mike
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A couple more things from me:
In my not so great 11x12x8 room nearfield definately takes away some of cube room nasties - solves most of the boomy bass - guess less chance for sound to bounce around.
I'm curious about what makes for a great nearfield speaker. Saw above that single driver works well. Any other attributes? Does size of speaker matter - always think of small monitors for nearfield but not sure this is true. Anyone have a speaker with a large bass driver that they have used effectively in nearfield (Ellis woofer is a 5 incher) or even sub that they integrate in nearfield setup.
David
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Near field to me isn't merely just a matter of how close you are to the speakers, but how wide apart they are in relation to the distance you sit back.
When I go to a live performance, I want to get up close near the action. Sitting in the back isn't nearly as enjoyable. By having my speakers spread some what wider apart, about 15% - 20% more than the distance I sit back, the illusion of being there is much more believable than having the speakers close together and sitting back at a greater distance.
If you prize a realistic a soundstage and imaging, I think this is pretty important to spread your speakers as wide apart as possible and not sit any further back than the distance between your speakers.
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Wind Chaser brings up a good point. If you see pictures of recording studios, their near field monitors have a fairly wide berth. I think the wider, the better, until you destroy the sound stage. Also, some smaller bookshelf type speakers may benifit from closer proximity to the corners of a room to boost a saging lower end.
Wayner
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With my VR4JRs I am about 8-9 feet away , about a foot shy of equilateral. But the toe-in is weird - I hardly use any at all. I don't seem to lose image focus, the tonal balance is better and the stage is w i d e.
I hear other JR owners say they do the same thing - point-em straight out.
Not sure what property of the speaker allows for this
I think has a lot to do with your RTs. From my experience when it comes to ribbons, listening off axis works much better than on axis. Most HF drivers have a narrow dispersion and thus benefit from being towed in especially under near field conditions.
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With my VR4JRs I am about 8-9 feet away , about a foot shy of equilateral. But the toe-in is weird - I hardly use any at all. I don't seem to lose image focus, the tonal balance is better and the stage is w i d e.
I hear other JR owners say they do the same thing - point-em straight out.
Not sure what property of the speaker allows for this
I think has a lot to do with your RTs. From my experience when it comes to ribbons, listening off axis works much better than on axis. Most HF drivers have a narrow dispersion and thus benefit from being towed in especially under near field conditions.
That's all fine n' dandy but this thread was about nearfield listening with the 1801 which if i'm not mistaken has a soft dome tweeter. Soft dome tweeters much prefer to breath and as such should be brought out into a room 2-3' minimum with simular spacing from the side walls in order to achieve a deep wide soundfield, especially for nearfield. Just my opinion, yrmv. :D
Cheers,
Robin
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Anyone have a speaker with a large bass driver that they have used effectively in nearfield (Ellis woofer is a 5 incher) or even sub that they integrate in nearfield setup.
My room is about 12x9x8. I got the horn based speakers with JBL D131 12' woofers. The distance between two speakers is 6-8' and my seat is nearly 8' and no space in the back. Actually I do not have enough room for the system. But I can turn up the volume from 9-3 o'clock it does not heard my ears. You should also consider the room treatments which is very important for a small room.
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n.b. The Ellis woofer is 6 1/2 inches, not 5.
And Robin's correct, it's a soft-dome (3/4 inch) tweeter.
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Wind Chaser brings up a good point. If you see pictures of recording studios, their near field monitors have a fairly wide berth. I think the wider, the better, until you destroy the sound stage. Also, some smaller bookshelf type speakers may benifit from closer proximity to the corners of a room to boost a saging lower end.
Wayner
The convention for mixing and mastering in stereo and surround is a 60 degree included angle between the L and R speakers. This forms an equilateral triangle with you as the third point.
Presumably, if your set up resembles that, you have a little greater chance of hearing what the engineer heard (and intended).
Having said that, this is a form of entertainment and individual taste comes into it, also if you have your speakers extra wide, they will be ideal for Blumlein recordings, which are meant to be heard on speakers spread 90 degrees apart.
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If I were to put my Dynaco A25XL's at 60 (total) toe-in, I would destroy my sound field completely. I think they would have to be about 20 feet apart for that angle. I'm only about 5 degrees inward (10 total).
Wayner
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I'm not talking about 60 degrees of toe in - 60 total included angle, that is the number of degrees off the center line between the speakers. In these terms 180 degrees included angle would put the speakers directly to your left and right.
Each speaker would be toed in about 33 degrees so as to point just in front of you. The idea is that as you move left and right off axis you are getting further off the axis of the speaker you are getting nearer to which is intended to roughly compensate for the arrival time being earlier. We determine apparent position of a phantom image partly by loudness (this is why the balance control works) and partly by arrival time.
When you toe the speakers out so that the axes are pointing at you or behind your head (let alone no toe in), as you move off center to the right, for example, the right speaker not only gets louder, but the arrival time is earlier. Both conspire to shift the image to the right. The effect is clearly audible.
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About 0.3" from each speaker (Stax electrostatic) :lol:
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Well, I think I'm in agreement with Russell Dawkins that the equilateral triangle with slightly crossed axes in front of the listener is giving the best sound. I haven't done any scientific measurements but think I've got it pretty close angle- and distance-wise. I might experiment some more with distance from the front wall, but am getting very nice depth with them about 1 foot 4 inches out. Best of all imaging, staging and balance are the best I've heard them; I could even hear the difference two rooms away (stereo room opens into dining room opens into living room). It is ... breathtakingly real. :D
What's an ideal recording to test this out? This one from Reference Recordings:
http://www.amazon.com/Medinah-Sessions-Paul-Bowles/dp/B00005NGYR/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1197301624&sr=8-1
Treasure trove of jazzy chamber music, following the individual voices is very immersing. Recorded in the 80s on analog tape (he knew digital wasn't up to scratch yet, I take it) and remastered at 24 bits; 2 CD set, get it if you don't have it. Medinah Temple Chicago is a great acoustic. The players are all tops.
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I've had a pair of Selah SSR in a nice Cardas arrangement
wonderful sounding & staging set up.
So I moved things around and crossed the axes just in front
of my nose. 9' equilateral trinangle. Well away from walls,
still a semi cardas setup. Very nice as well!
And Amongst the cds & LPs were some RR stuff
Star of Wonder
Rutters Requiem
many of thiei Fanfares CDS.
the Pro-musica CD choice is great.
Folk singer...Muddy Waters
Alone & Acoustic Blues giant Buddy Guy from the 60's
Audioquest Recordings are killer
as are some Chesky.
I did the same sorta thing with a Basszilla set up
as well.....nice, very nice. If I had the knowledge
I'd love to convert the Monopole bass in the basszilla
to Dipolar. This one took longer to get sounding good.
Still futzing around with it. AT211 amps here.
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About 6 feet with my Legacy Studio monitors,,it sounds very good
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Well, I think I'm in agreement with Russell Dawkins that the equilateral triangle with slightly crossed axes in front of the listener is giving the best sound. I haven't done any scientific measurements but think I've got it pretty close angle- and distance-wise. I might experiment some more with distance from the front wall, but am getting very nice depth with them about 1 foot 4 inches out. Best of all imaging, staging and balance are the best I've heard them; I could even hear the difference two rooms away (stereo room opens into dining room opens into living room). It is ... breathtakingly real. :D
What's an ideal recording to test this out? This one from Reference Recordings:
http://www.amazon.com/Medinah-Sessions-Paul-Bowles/dp/B00005NGYR/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1197301624&sr=8-1
Treasure trove of jazzy chamber music, following the individual voices is very immersing. Recorded in the 80s on analog tape (he knew digital wasn't up to scratch yet, I take it) and remastered at 24 bits; 2 CD set, get it if you don't have it. Medinah Temple Chicago is a great acoustic. The players are all tops.
Thanks for the recording suggestion and glad this worked for you.
What I did to make speaker angle adjustment easier was to take a protractor and draw an angle of 60 degrees on a piece of paper, bisected with a line down the middle, and cut it out - about 6 inches on a side. then I just move this around until the edges are pointing at the speakers and ideally my head should be where the near point is, if you follow (you can see why I'm not a technical writer!).
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60 degrees is a good place to start, but it never hurts to try a wider girth. You might be surprised with the result! :green:
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60 degrees is a good place to start, but it never hurts to try a wider girth. You might be surprised with the result! :green:
I agree wholeheartly when it comes to my Lorelei's. With me sitting 6' in front, I have my Lorelei's crossing a good 6' behind me and they're still able to disappear while creating a soundfield up & behind them, especially now that I'm using Jim Goulding's wool surrounds. Gotta love them Scan Speak 9700 soft dome tweeters for their dispersion. :D
Cheers,
Robin
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I generally share this sentiment:
My experience on near field listening is just as eye-opening as my discovery of room treatment. It sounded a little weird at first, but once you're accustom to it, you will appreciate what it does - it brings you so much closer to the singer, it's as if she/he is singing right on your nose.
However, this arrangement is totally unacceptable in my wife's living room :nono: . This is probably true for most folks.
I believe there are a few 1801 listeners using a near field arrangement, but the number is very small.
Dave
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As an owner of Dave's phenomenal 1801b's, I use the nearfield arrangement for most of my listening. I keep each speaker positioned with the needed toe-in, and place my (light enough to carry) listening chair at the equilateral triangle listening point, about 7 feet from each speaker. The soundstage is incredibly real and three dimensional (with the right recordings, of course). Sometimes, when changing a record or CD, I linger between the speakers and can't believe the center image is so real.
When I am done listening I move the chair back to a nearby spouse-approved location. :roll: This set-up also works well with company visiting, when my listening chair position is impossible. The nearfield setup also works especially well when the family asks that I keep the loudness down. :nono:
Bill C
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I find that, realistically, in the average home no more than one person wants to listen closely to something. For everyone else involved in other things the quieter the better, although "background levels" are usually acceptable.
With the set up I described on page 1 of this thread there was a relatively extreme difference between levels in the chair and the rest of the house, which was part of the plan. It was nice to be able to enjoy decent loudness without bothering anyone.
Most of the time the speakers would be swiveled out for casual listening. Of course with this arrangement they were too close together for "proper" stereo placed just each side of a chair, but I don't listen for imaging when I'm walking around the house!
It did help that they were small, light and floor standing. This wouldn't work for a spiked setup unless the stand top was big enough to allow the speaker to be turned around on it and the speaker itself was not on spikes.
All that is needed is a speaker whose sound comes together at those close distances. Do the 1801s? I haven't heard them.
cheers
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Toe in/out should be a "season to taste" matter. With my speakers/room/taste I preferred crossing over just behind my head to just in front of my head and preferred either to directly at me.
What makes a good speaker for nearfield listening? Coherence (drivers must be physically close and should have very similar voicing around the crossover frequency with no phase inverting between drivers) and a non-forward/hot/agressive presentation (deep soundstage).
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I believe there are a few 1801 listeners using a near field arrangement, but the number is very small.
Well, I don't want to say I'm now hearing these speakers for the first time...but I do feel I'm now getting more out of them than ever. Anyone should try this if possible I think. It could be as simple as moving a chair back and forth; the speakers don't have to be all that far into the room (mine are less than 2 feet).
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I find that, realistically, in the average home no more than one person wants to listen closely to something. For everyone else involved in other things the quieter the better, although "background levels" are usually acceptable.
With the set up I described on page 1 of this thread there was a relatively extreme difference between levels in the chair and the rest of the house, which was part of the plan. It was nice to be able to enjoy decent loudness without bothering anyone.
Most of the time the speakers would be swiveled out for casual listening. Of course with this arrangement they were too close together for "proper" stereo placed just each side of a chair, but I don't listen for imaging when I'm walking around the house!
It did help that they were small, light and floor standing. This wouldn't work for a spiked setup unless the stand top was big enough to allow the speaker to be turned around on it and the speaker itself was not on spikes.
All that is needed is a speaker whose sound comes together at those close distances. Do the 1801s? I haven't heard them.
cheers
I'm not seeing the need to swivel the speakers out ever. I feel they're now integrating better with the room they're in and consequently sound better in the rest of the house, too.
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What makes a good speaker for nearfield listening? Coherence (drivers must be physically close and should have very similar voicing around the crossover frequency with no phase inverting between drivers) and a non-forward/hot/agressive presentation (deep soundstage).
I certainly would not describe the 1801s as aggressive but they aren't non-forward either. They're like studio monitors: "unforgiving" if you're putting the negative spin on it; very accurate if you're putting the positive spin on it. Toeing them away from the side walls does reduce HF reflections and makes closer listening better. And of course the drivers are closely spaced and crossed over well.
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What makes a good speaker for nearfield listening? Coherence (drivers must be physically close and should have very similar voicing around the crossover frequency with no phase inverting between drivers) and a non-forward/hot/aggressive presentation (deep soundstage).
I have a few thoughts on the matter and will try to convey them without referencing any specific product.
I find that sins of omission are more forgiveable than sins of admission. This is manifested in many ways. First, small valleys in the response are okay, but peaks are painful. Second, tweeters with poor dampening generally have a harsh overshoot that creates noise and, hence, poor imaging. Third, cheap capacitors purvey a pseudo detail that is also grit & grain that helps the ear localize the tweeter. Fourth, given the same $$, tube amps generally seem to have less edge and image better than SS amps. Fifth, a caveat, not all tube amps sound lush/smooth. Not all SS amps sound harsh/gritty.
What do you mean by phase inverting? Are you referring to loudspeakers that use reverse polarity to obtain the correct phase relationship? Or are you referring to speakers that are sold with a phase cancellation at the crossover point?
Dave
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There is an excellent article in TAS No. 127, from several years ago, on room treatment and speaker placement, citing 8 easy ways to improve sound. It's an excellent article and well worth reading if you have access to this issue of TAS and the article by Robert E. Greene.
Of the 8 ways, one is to listen close to your speakers sometimes, as an experiment. You get mostly just direct sound from the speakers, and no room reflections.
I'll summarize some of the other 7 points:
1. Cover the floor with thick carpet - eliminate floor reflections
2. Cover windows with curtains
3. Break up reflections off parallel walls, if you have echoing.
4. Don't over damp the room
The above seem to be in the obvious category of room treatment, but since many of us don't have that dedicated listening room, compromises have to be made. It's usually quite helpful to eliminate as many reflections as possible for optimum listening and enjoyment. Just moving the listening chair up close for a nearfield listen can help a lot.
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Here is that article from avguide.com, the online respository of reviews and articles for The Absolute Sound and The Perfect Vision magazines.
http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=800
Nice article, Thanks Steven!
Rich
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Here is that article from avguide.com, the online respository of reviews and articles for The Absolute Sound and The Perfect Vision magazines.
http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=800
Nice article, Thanks Steven!
Rich
At this year's RMAF a local Denver dealer, Soundings had 2 rooms with speakers set up according to a method called M.A.S.T.E.R. SET, which was developed by the speaker guys at Sumiko Importers. The long and short of this method is to have the speakers along the long wall in a room, close to the back wall - 8 to 14", and toed in. The overall object is to have the speakers tuned to each other acting as a left and right sound source equally pressurizong each half of the room. When fully tuned in, and these rooms were at about 90-95% according to the room hosts, the sound was simply amazing. It didn't matter where in the room you sat, the sound was the same as there was no sweet spot. It was as if someone in the room was playing a guitar and you just sat in and listened.
I'm giving short shrift here, you simply had to have visited the room and listened for a spell.
However, as always, it may not be possible to set up a room in this manner. It's always a lot of work to balance all the compromises in room set up to get the best sound possible. But between information in the article and the above, it's possible to get something decent.
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wow - the above is nearly *exactly* how I have my room configured. :thumb:
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wow - the above is nearly *exactly* how I have my room configured. :thumb:
Yes, you are fairly close.
The 8-14" area is from the back, middle back I suppose, of the speaker cabinet to the rear wall. This is the area where bass nodes are present and also couples the speaker to the wall for bass reinforcement. Out further and there is a noticeable change.
From your gallery photo, you have a big stack of gear in between the speakers, and it's best if that can be either elsewhere, or lowered if possible as it can affect imaging.
One thing I didn't mention is that toe in is determined as follows:
Speakers as far apart as practical, but not too close, 2-3', to a side wall, and still maintain a centered mono image.
Toe in is to the point of the equilateral triangle from the speakers to setup listening position, with toe in to a point behind the listener, so that the inner side of the speaker is still just visible.
Listener must be out from rear wall a couple feet, to avoid rear wall reflection which is very noticeable.
You don't really need a tape measure, you can just estimate distances to fit the room as above and be okay.
It's the fine tuning of the M.A.S.T.E.R. SET setup that is tricky as it's all done by ear and knowledge of what to listen for. Hopefully Rod @Soundings will come up with a dvd to illustrate the setup procedure as he has learned it from the Sumiko seminars. When properly done, this method works with any speaker in any room and with little or no room treatment.
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Strange enough...I'm glad that I'm not the only one. My previous room is about 10x15, conventional wisdom said I should place the speaker along the short wall so I can sit farther from the speakers. I tried that and didn't like the sound - too much room interaction which pollute the sound, and the speakers are too close together so the soundtage was rather congested.
So I turned 90 degee and place the speakers along the long wall, about 8ft apart, and I sat only 6ft away. This near-field listening is truely an eye-opening experience. I'm hearing nothing but the purest signals from my speakers. There's nothing between me and the singer (vocal), as if she is just inches away, if I close my eye I felt like I can just extend my hand and touch her. When I first started it, I still had that little "inner guilt" that I was being stupid to defy conventional wisdom. But over-time I have grown to trust my ears, and I have come to learn that there are people out there who did the same and enjoy it. :thumb:
See my previous room layout below:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=7010)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=7010)
So I turned 90 degee and place the speakers along the long wall, about 8ft apart, and I sat only 6ft away. This near-field listening is truely an eye-opening experience.
It would be nice if that room was another foot or two deeper, but that's the way to do it. :thumb: I've been preaching that for years. Electronics upstream, especially amplifiers make a big difference in terms of how close the sound is. Most people if not all when they go to a live performance want the best seats possible. If sitting in the back row at a concert doesn't cut it, why set up your system as such?
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My speakers are at about 5 1/2 feet for most of my listening, but they have to be for my work which involves critical listening 1/2 the time.
Call me weird, but I really like to hear what is on the recording, and the less of your room you hear the more of the recording space (if there is one) you hear.
I really like the sound of good speakers outdoors, even though there is no room "help".
This is sound thinking, the closer you sit to your speakers, the less interaction from your room. I sit four feet from mine, with the speakers pulled at least 6' off the wall. In my 24ft' room that puts me and my speakers as far away from the walls as possible. Taking your speakers outside is also a very good idea, lets you totally eliminate the room.
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Nothing like taking a good pair of speakers outside to fully realize just how much your room is influencing the sound of your system.
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Assuming the weather is nice, everything (food, drink, sex, etc) is better outside. When I was 12 I took my stereo outside almost every day after school. Some neighbors didn't like and others retailiated. Stereo Wars! It was more than sheer volume and clean sound, but who played the best tunes. I could always count on one neighbor to turn it up outside when my parents prevented me from disturbing the peace as they called it. It also gave everyone exposure to music they didn't have in their collection.
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I take it the effect is ruined if your room is open on one side, i.e. having the speakers against the long wall would result in open space to the right of the right speaker and a wall to the left of the left speaker.
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I take it the effect is ruined if your room is open on one side, i.e. having the speakers against the long wall would result in open space to the right of the right speaker and a wall to the left of the left speaker.
Brian,
The open wall should be of no consequence as the other speaker should be far enough from the side wall for it to have little to no effect. In the setup method I tried to describe, it's all done by ear, no tape measure really necessary.
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I take it the effect is ruined if your room is open on one side, i.e. having the speakers against the long wall would result in open space to the right of the right speaker and a wall to the left of the left speaker.
I have my own suspicions based on experience, but I think it's worth the effort it takes trying. Go for it and tell us what you think compared to your existing arrangement.
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So there are obviously various opinions floating around on the best arrangement. Here are my results...
Room: 13 x 16, with 2 openings in one of the short walls (the original back wall)
Before arrangement: Speakers on the short wall, 8 feet apart, pointing toward the back wall with the openings, about 2 feet out from front wall and around 2 feet in from the sides, toed in for near field listening, with axes crossing just in front of the listener about 8 feet from the base of the triangle. This arrangement sounded very very good...
After arrangement:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t59/magg32/1801s.jpg)
Wall with openings is now to the right. Speakers are still around 8 feet apart, now a little less than a foot from the front wall, listener still about 8 feet away, but the axes are now crossing behind the listener, who is a little over a foot from the back wall, which are mostly taken up by large windows. (Blinds can be pulled.)
This arrangement sounds...better! See, I had tried this kind of thing with my previous speakers, which were Revel F30s, in a different room of the same width, and it just didn't work. Maybe I didn't do it right, maybe those speakers were too big.
It's hard to describe the difference between the before and after setups. Kinda like the difference between listening to players on a stage and actually being on the stage with them. This setup has really taken the room out of the equation. I had been worried that I'd be sitting too near the back wall (reflections). Even with minimal absorption behind me this does not appear to be an issue. I had been worried that I would sacrifice some imaging with my equipment rack in between the speakers (before I could keep it in a closet out of the way behind). The imaging is in fact even better the new way. I was worried the proximity to the front wall would mean sacrificing some stage depth. Nope. I'm just sitting on the stage and kinda surrounded by sound. And the bass is, of course, pleasingly reinforced this way. A subwoofer might theoretically improve things, with difficulty, but it definitely is not necessary. You don't believe me come over and hear for yourself! :) The bass really does fill the room quite well. :o
So it sounds...like you might expect it to sound with more air on either side of the speakers. High frequencies are given more room to breathe, there is more a sense of space (which was not exactly lacking before), and everything just gels. The bit about "pressurizing both halves of the room equally" must be accurate. As for the center image...I just don't understand how good speakers do this!!! I can't hear a centrally placed soloist emanating from the speakers themselves no matter how hard I concentrate. It just sounds like my rack is producing the sound. PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE LITTLE BOXES ON EITHER SIDE OF THE STEREO RACK. Spoooky.
In short, this is the arrangement I will be sticking with. I recommend anyone try it who hasn't and can. (It also makes things look nicer having everything out in the room...I also can't believe I recently contemplated, in a moment of weakness, trying out a different speaker, "for fun." Well, also because a floorstander would be more child proof...But when you get your room basically out of the way, these 1801s are keepers. The system just sounds complete as is, thank you Dave Ellis.)
And thanks again for all the input people!
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Wall with openings is now to the right. Speakers are still around 8 feet apart, now a little less than a foot from the front wall, listener still about 8 feet away, but the axes are now crossing behind the listener, who is a little over a foot from the back wall, which are mostly taken up by large windows. (Blinds can be pulled.)
This arrangement sounds...better! See, I had tried this kind of thing with my previous speakers, which were Revel F30s, in a different room of the same width, and it just didn't work. Maybe I didn't do it right, maybe those speakers were too big.
Brian,
That's great, but don't stop there. Try pulling them out @ 6" increments further into the room, even if it's not practical, try it anyhow. Those speakers seem easy enough to move quickly in and out of position. Also experiment with more tow so the axis cross in front of you. Try less tow and listen carefully to the difference. Think of your speakers as fine quality lens that allows for precise focus. Patient experimentation pays off. And as you suggested, doing these kind of things can be quite a revelation - to the point where you say, upgrade? Why upgrade? :green:
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Try pulling them out @ 6" increments further into the room, even if it's not practical, try it anyhow. Those speakers seem easy enough to move quickly in and out of position. Also experiment with more tow so the axis cross in front of you. Try less tow and listen carefully to the difference.
Knowing me I'm sure I'll be monkeying around with it some more (to my wife's continued perplexity - she heard it this morning and said why didn't you do this earlier? it sounds perfect!). The above was just the quick and dirty. I'm still afraid to touch anything though, 'cause it's sounding soo awesome.
Think of your speakers as fine quality lens that allows for precise focus. Patient experimentation pays off. And as you suggested, doing these kind of things can be quite a revelation - to the point where you say, upgrade? Why upgrade? :green:
Well, I'd already decided that the Van Alstine gear stays. I don't think it gets too much better (and for how many thousands more). Since I'm hearing everything I want now, the last thing would be to get back on the merry-go-round crap shoot. Not a whole lot lacking. And the speakers! Readers take note, these things only cost around $1600, and half that if you build them yourself. Remarkable.