[Chops]

So I'm planning on building some OB's again, full range OB's with 15" bass drivers in a W-Frame. I'm going to reinstate my old but proven Pyle Pro PPA15's drivers for bass duty, two per channel, since I have them and all.

For the top end, from say 100-200Hz on up, I would like to run a 15" wide range driver, either the Audio Nirvana Super 15 or Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris 15. I like having extended, crisp treble detail and full bodied, uncolored and natural midrange. I'm guessing I could probably just run them full range and cross the PPA15's over by ear where the bass rolls off with the wide rangers.

I prefer the Super 15 because it is truly a single driver, but am concerned about its treble performance (or possible lack thereof). I also prefer it simply based on its looks. It's a good looking driver.

However, the Silver Iris 15 will most likely have better treble performance due to it actually having a tweeter. The two things I don't care for about it is that it's not a true "single driver", and it uses a crossover with possible phase-shift anomalies at the x-over point. This may or may not be an issue though.

I've even considered the Super 12's as well as a pair of 8" PAudio coaxial drivers from Dannie Richie, though I think I would rather stay with larger drivers in the 12" and 15" category.

Power isn't an issue with either of these very efficient drivers, though I will be powering them with my Monarchy amp which puts out a healthy 25 watts of Class A juice. I'll be powering the PPA15's with an AudioSource AMP 100 for the time being, probably upgrading to a couple of plate amps later down the road. And being that we live in an apartment, it's not like I'll be blasting them anyway.

Just as reference, my current speakers are a pair of NHT 2.9's powered by the Monarchy amp. A great combo.

I would like to hear your thoughts, ideas and/or suggestions. I have never heard either of the drivers in question, so am going only on what I have read online.

Many thanks in advance! 

[JohnR]

For the top end, from say 100-200Hz on up, I would like to run a 15" wide range driver, either the Audio Nirvana Super 15 or Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris 15.

As you've pointed out, the Hawthorne is not a wide range driver at all. So my question is, do you want to run a wide-range driver, or would you prefer a tweeter? It just seems to me that the design decisions pan out quite differently depending on this.

[Chops]

As you've pointed out, the Hawthorne is not a wide range driver at all. So my question is, do you want to run a wide-range driver, or would you prefer a tweeter? It just seems to me that the design decisions pan out quite differently depending on this.

It's more of a matter of top-end performance. Yes, I'd rather use the Super 15 IF it has great treble extension and for its simplicity. If it doesn't, I'll have to go with the Hawthorne. Even though it isn't a single driver, it has the appearance and point-source sound of one.

[MJK]

Why are you focused on such a large driver to cover everything above 200 Hz?

Why not think smaller, no larger then 8 inches, where the top end extension will not be an issue?

The heavy lifting is done by the bass drivers, use a smaller full range to give you the full range sound and the top end extension you are after. By restricting yourself to the AN 15, you are not getting much additional help in the low end and are compromising at the high end of the audio spectrum.

One other piece of advice, use a crossover on each driver. Do not run the full range without a filter and allow it to overlap the bass drivers, the system will have an artificial lift which at first will sound appealing but later will sound off (I have done it both ways back to back with my active crossover and it is no contest). By removing the low frequency signal from the full range driver you will improve the midrange and high frequency performance of the driver.

[Chops]

Why are you focused on such a large driver to cover everything above 200 Hz?

Why not think smaller, no larger then 8 inches, where the top end extension will not be an issue?

The heavy lifting is done by the bass drivers, use a smaller full range to give you the full range sound and the top end extension you are after. By restricting yourself to the AN 15, you are not getting much additional help in the low end and are compromising at the high end of the audio spectrum.

One other piece of advice, use a crossover on each driver. Do not run the full range without a filter and allow it to overlap the bass drivers, the system will have an artificial lift which at first will sound appealing but later will sound off (I have done it both ways back to back with my active crossover and it is no contest). By removing the low frequency signal form the full range driver you will improve the high frequency performance from the driver.

Good points.

The reason I want to go with a large driver is for efficiency and dynamics, macro and micro as well as louder dynamics. Efficient drivers always have a sense of ease and naturalness about them, at any volume level. And I will use a crossover on both drivers.

When going through middle school, in the music room, they had Altec VOT's hanging off the walls with the 511B horns hanging underneath. I remember those things sounding so good simply because of their efficiency and sheer size (compared to the Klipsch Cornwall's and smaller speakers at home). I used to bring in my own tapes to play on that system (old Marantz receiver and cassette deck) and was always amazed at the level of detail those speakers pulled out of the recordings.

That's why I want to go with big ole' efficient drivers. I know I'll suffer some on imaging and sound stage, but I can deal with that. Plus, I don't plan to stay in apartments the rest of my life. 

[Chops]

I just noticed that Pyle still makes those PPA15 drivers. At their going price and how well I know these drivers sound and perform, I may just get two more pair and use four of them per channel for maximum bass oomph and efficiency in those small W-frame baffles.

[JohnR]

I just noticed that Pyle still makes those PPA15 drivers. At their going price and how well I know these drivers sound and perform, I may just get two more pair and use four of them per channel for maximum bass oomph and efficiency in those small W-frame baffles.

I'm a bit confused about your goals, the 12" Eminence you have are speced at 95 dB/W/m while the Pyles are 90 dB/w/m?

[Chops]

I'm a bit confused about your goals, the 12" Eminence you have are speced at 95 dB/W/m while the Pyles are 90 dB/w/m?

The efficiency I'm looking for is in the top drivers more so than the bass drivers. Yes, the Eminence drivers are more efficient, but with four Pyle's per channel vs only two of the Eminence, it somewhat evens out. Plus, the Pyle's have a much lower Fs and a higher Qts, both of which will help out greatly on the bottom end.

[MJK]

The AN 15" full range drivers are not any more efficient, maybe even a little less due to the high moving mass, than some of the 8 inch full range drivers. I think your system is becoming large and more complex without addressing the goals of high efficiency and treble extension. Two 15"woofers in H or U frames for below 200 Hz and an 8" full range driver on an OB for above 200 Hz is really all you need. More is not necessarily better.

[Chops]

The AN 15" full range drivers are not any more efficient, maybe even a little less due to the high moving mass, than some of the 8 inch full range drivers. I think your system is becoming large and more complex without addressing the goals of high efficiency and treble extension. Two 15"woofers in H or U frames for below 200 Hz and an 8" full range driver on an OB for above 200 Hz is really all you need. More is not necessarily better.

I see what you're saying, but then why do others go with 10's, 12's and 15's for the full range drivers?

I would think for the higher micro/macro detail retrieval and overall larger scale of the reproduced sound. That was one of the thing I loved about my Maggies. They weren't the best ones available, but because of the much larger driver surface area over standard cones and domes, it just painted a bigger picture with that 1' wide by 5' tall driver.

I have to say though, the one thing I keep thinking about is chamber resonances with W, H, U-frames. I really do prefer simple, flat baffles, especially considering probably a much cleaner sound with the cone facing directly at me and not into another driver. So I might just consider not using the Pyle's (because of the cheesy logo's on the dust caps) and get a couple pairs of Eminence Alpha 15's instead.

I listen to a lot of classical (orchestra and pipe organ), jazz (classic and modern), blues, folk, 60's through 90's pop, rock. Most of this is on vinyl and cassette, though also on CD.

So with keeping within $200 per driver, what would you suggest for a full range driver?

I did forget to mention that I still have my MarkAudio Alpair 10.2's, but they are rated at 87dB 1w/1m. They also sound pretty darn good considering the temp, small baffles I have them on.

[MJK]

If I had $200 to spend per driver, I would seriously look at one of the Tangband W8 full range drivers (models 1772 or 1882 if I rememeber correctly).

[Chops]

If I had $200 to spend per driver, I would seriously look at one of the Tangband W8 full range drivers (models 1772 or 1882 if I rememeber correctly).

I was looking at those. However, I might not be doing this project at all for two reasons.

1) I just swapped out the NHT 2.9's for the X-Statik's and am totally amazed at the difference/improvement in sound.

And...

2) I think my Simaudio Moon Stellar just took a dump on me. Not good.

[MJK]

My result for a similar speaker design.

[Chops]

My result for a similar speaker design.

Very huge, yet very nice. 

[JohnR]

I see what you're saying, but then why do others go with 10's, 12's and 15's for the full range drivers?

I would think for the higher micro/macro detail retrieval and overall larger scale of the reproduced sound. That was one of the thing I loved about my Maggies. They weren't the best ones available, but because of the much larger driver surface area over standard cones and domes, it just painted a bigger picture with that 1' wide by 5' tall driver.

Oh I agree with you at the lower end (a few hundreds of Hz) but things change a lot as you go higher up to several kHz and above.

I don't think there are very many full range drivers available/deployed at those sizes (10, 12, 15"). I know of the PHYs, I guess we should add the AN drivers... others?

[studiotech]

My result for a similar speaker design.

Oh boy, the end is near....Lambda drivers rather than Eminence?   

[MJK]

For now .... the H frames will also take my old reliable Alpha 15A woofers.

I had to use a different crossover approach with the Dipole 15 woofers and ended up needing a lot of boost. It was not as straight forward as the Alpha 15A woofers and a simple 2nd order filter. The Dipole 15s definitely go deeper. Nice drivers but at a much higher cost compared to the Alpha 15As.