AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vapor Audio => Topic started by: Blackmore on 11 Apr 2013, 12:18 am
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Since ejfud has received the Breeze, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new topic called Breeze Tour Impressions. Here we go:
Vapor Audio Breeze
Nicely finished cabinet and an attractive speaker. Finish on my sample was excellent and the new front baffle with CNC adds some time alignment giving the Breeze an updated appearance. And since ejfud brought it up; a lot of the weight of these speakers comes from what they call "Acoustic Inversion Layer"; whatever magic goo Ryan mixes up made the cabinets very dead and VERY heavy for a small speaker.
Placement
Give the rear port enough (a lot) room. Anything too close gave the bass a swimmy sound in my room. There’s enough bass to let you move them out into the room a bit and I think you’ll like what the Breeze do when they are out away from the walls. I found slightly closer together gave me a much better center fill and plumped up voices. Nice! Ribbons have plenty of dispersion to still give that narrower placement a wrap around soundstage. They also did pretty well in near-field placement but I ended up listening at a more traditional distance of around 8 feet.
Tweeters and Foam bumpers
Ryan has included precise directions on how to place these foam bumpers on the front of the Raal. They’re held in place with an imbedded metal strip, so just let the ribbon magnet hold them in place. Start with Ryan’s and Raal’s suggestion, but feel free to experiment. I found they had pretty significant effect on the sound. I experimented quite a bit with those bumpers and even tried some unorthodox placements. Ryan just laughed when he heard what I was playing around with. Nonetheless, I was able to dial in the right amount of treble for my living room using the bumpers. Oh, and by the way, the Raal is a very detailed tweeter that Ryan has done a killer job integrating it with the woofer. This struck me right away.
Woofers
This is a nice, punchy woofer. I didn’t lack for bass weight for upright bass in my jazz combo recordings. With my final placement, they were particularly good on female vocals and piano. We had the Stiff Breeze in the front room for a while and their double 6 inch woofers really energized the room, but I find the Breeze plenty enough for most recordings. Add subs as needed but I was happy and impressed with the bass response of such a small speaker. Bass response is a strength in all the Vapor Audio speakers with the Aurora being my guilty pleasure favorite. (it’s nice to live close to the manufacturer)
Soundstage and depth
A real strength of the Breeze. I got some good depth in recordings and the Raal made some low level sounds more clear in the mix. I believe Ryan is sensitive to depth in recordings and the Breeze were very good. Soundstage width is not as expansive as I’m used to, but I use the large Innersound Eros as my main speakers and they do throw a larger, taller soundstage. No surprise that a small stand mount doesn’t sound the same as a 6’ panel. Feel free to argue which is correct but I think you will like the Raal’s dispersion in your listening room and will search out chestnuts like “Pop, Pop” or “Caverna Magica” to listen details way down in the mix. I could easily see someone listing imaging as their favorite Breeze attribute.
Compatibility
I used a variety of amps and found the most fun with a Sophia Electric Baby and the new TBI Millennium II amp (nice) The Baby is a 10 watt p-p amp using an EL84 variant and was plenty loud for me (although it wasn’t enough for the Stiff Breeze) and the TBI is a 20 watt battery powered integrated. A vintage Musical Concepts modded Hafler 200 was also used and the Breeze had no problem soaking up its 150 watts. Didn’t listen to any NIN, but I did rock the front room with some Tenacious D. The little woofers just kept pumping. The only amp that didn’t work was my BAT VK60 because I was forced to run it single-ended instead of balanced and lost too much sensitivity with my preamp. The sound became uninteresting. No fault of the Breeze or BAT, just an operational issue. Due to the Breeze sensitivity ratings, my SET amps were not used.
Comparisons
None. I don’t own anything similar to the Breeze and I’ll leave that to others on the tour that have something closer in concept. I would only add that in my fading aural memory, the Breeze have many of the good attributes of the Cirrus Black with a reduction in midrange transparency. Considering the price differences, this is a reasonable outcome.
Summary
Ryan and Pete are doing a great thing by sending the Breeze out on tour. It lets you get some first hand experience with the Raal and you get to enjoy a lively little monitor that can fill your room, responding well to a variety of amps. Get them out in the room and placed just right and you'll have a good time....until you have to haul that freakin' heavy box down to UPS and send them to the next guy. Thanks for the tour and hope everyone has a great time.
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Very well said Blackmore...
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Thanks for posting your thoughts Mark! And sorry for making them so heavy :lol:
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Aside from shipping costs, I will state on the record that I have no problem with heavy speakers or amps.
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Very nice write up Blackmore!!
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it would be nice if ejfud could give us a little something - it has been 6 days since you have had them - anything?
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I got the impression that you had already dismissed whatever it is that he might want to say.
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Mark,
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful write-up. Could you share your impressions of Ryan's Stiff Breeze speakers that you mentioned were set up in the other room? I am interested and as they are newer I haven't seen much written on them so far. Thanks.
Steve
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Mark,
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful write-up. Could you share your impressions of Ryan's Stiff Breeze speakers that you mentioned were set up in the other room? I am interested and as they are newer I haven't seen much written on them so far. Thanks.
Steve
Actually, the Stiff Breeze were set up in the same room, just earlier on delivery day.
The Stiff Breeze this week were sent to Terry London at Home Theater Review. http://hometheaterreview.com/ (http://hometheaterreview.com/)
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Stiff Breeze were first up in the listening session. I don't know if my impressions will be much help because I was in the "host" mode and let Ryan and Pete listen from the sweet spot. I moved amps around and did the DJ work. So I didn't have a ton of time to do serious listening before they set up the Breeze for my tour listening.
Here's some thoughts from listening. When we fired them up Ryan immediately asked if I had a subwoofer on in the room. I didn't. We had a tremendous amount of bass in the front room and I had fun firing up some Brian Bromberg and Tenacious D to use that bass. I think it was caused by the necessity of placement and by my old modded Hafler amp that seemed to lift bass unlike the other amp choices. My small tube amps were not ideal although Ryan will point out that the Stiff is more efficient. The Stiff Breeze really like more juice to get up and play and the 150 watts out of the old Hafler made the room jump. Only downside to the sound was that the Raal betrayed the 30 year old amp in the treble. Not awfully gritty, but still in the mix.
Since Ryan confirmed we had a bit too much bass compared to his listening room, my comments about tone, timbre, voicing, etc. will all be influenced by the elevated bass level. Basically the Stiff truly is a Breeze with more bass, a greater ease when playing loud and the same smooth crossover. I did think the Stiff was slightly duller in the crossover region, but that would be expected given the bass rise in my room. By the way, the finish was piano black and the Stiffys looked great in the front room on some stands the Ryan brought over. You would think they were $$$ if you sat down for a listen. Gorgeous.
Conclusion? I probably liked the Stiff Breeze better than the Breeze just for the WOW factor and greater ease when playing at "GAS" approved volumes. Overall sound was so similar that any differences would be related to the second woofer loading the room better. Hope this helps, but I really didn't get too much time with them and I didn't get to play with placement and better amplifier choices. I bet my big Innersound ESL amp would have been a great match.
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And I will concur with Blackmore, that the Aurora has some killer bass. My main concern with the Aurora would in fact be that its bass would be too much for my smallish listening space. Those speakers can really load a room. Very very impressive. And the pair I heard didn't even have the newer upgraded tweeter.
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I had the Aurora in my smallish room for like a month or two while I was having the cross overs upgraded on my Cirrus, 13x13x8ft and they didn't over power the space, I was running them off a 30 Watt tube set up. I actually really liked them in the small room, you really got the tactile feel of the bass without it being overpowering, better than any tower I have put up in that room. I was listening to the Demo model with a downward firing port which also made placement a breeze, (no pun intended) The biggest thing about placement with them is they just liked quite a bit of toe-in to really get the most out of them imaging wise, the tweeters pointed right at the edges of my eyes in the sweet-spot, even so the image was still very precise in the seats to the left and right of the sweet spot. I had them cranking quite a few times with classic rock, dub step, rap even and there was never any sort of overload or break-up in the room very well behaved and fast bass. These speakers, as most of vapor's stuff also had remarkable resolution, not to the level of the Cirrus but I was very impressed, that ceramic inverted dome is one of very few domes I have heard that wasn't somewhat dull and boring. Please PM me if you have any questions about the Aurora as I don't want to de-rail this topic.
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I got the impression that you had already dismissed whatever it is that he might want to say.
your right - i mean if everyone has the right toe in - and the cd player is up to date and the speakers are the right distance from the wall - and the room is not so small - and the tube amp has recently been retubed - no old tubes please - and god forbid no solid state amps - and the speaker cable is at least $1000 dollars and above and the interconnects are at least $500 and the room doesnt have a tv in it - and there is proper damping in the room and you just use killer demo music and you sit in the sweet spot - and you have no equipment that is not broken in yet
i cant imagine ejfud will like these speakers - all of his equipment and his room and his cd player of course is not right for this speaker!
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it would be nice if ejfud could give us a little something - it has been 6 days since you have had them - anything?
still nothing from ejfud - am i the only one that thinks this is a little weird - maybe he is sick or there was some sort of emergency
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still nothing from ejfud - am i the only one that thinks this is a little weird - maybe he is sick or there was some sort of emergency
i think lateapex has the speakers now - maybe he will say something in the next week - it would be nice to keep this thread going - it has been awfully quiet
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Looking forward to hearing these babies! I'm just now re-entering the hobby and am certainly not a professional reviewer, but happy to share my impressions. I should have them in my system mid-week.
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The Vapors left the house today and I wanted to share few of my thoughts on the time I spent with them. Starting with the room and equipment details.
I'm lucky enough to have a room just for listening. It's small, but enjoyable, approximately 9' x 13'. The system is placed on the on a 9' wall with the electronis in the middle of the wall. As stated earlier, I used a highly modified Pass B1 buffer and Slagle autoformers as my preamps (volume controls really). The amps were a Ghent IcePower and some DIY F5 monoblocks made with some nice parts. The source was the much talked about Ah! The last two pairs of speakers and the ones I use the most are a pair of Mark Audio Alpair 12P's in a bookshelf configuration and a pair of MLTL Jordan's with the Aurum Cantus G2 ribbons in a two way configuration.
The Vapors started on the Ice/B1 combo. In my small room the bass was all I'd need for my listening habits. I had just been listening to the Aurum tweetered speakers and was blown away by the level of detail and "breath" I heard with the Raal's. They were just in another league from the Aurums. There was a depth of soundstage that just drew me in. Soundstage was as wide as I've heard in my small room. A very enjoyable week was spent with this setup.
Next up was the Slagle/F5 combo. The F5's had been sitting for a month or so, so I wanted to let them get good and warm before I had a listen. Of course that did not happen and I had a listen. The bass was more defined and solid to it's lower limits with this combo, but the highs were very pronounced. I figured the amps need a little longer to warm up and walked away for the day. Came back and had a listen again. Bass was still better than the Ice/B1 setup, but the top end was still a little to in my face for my liking. I swapped in the B1 to see if there was and difference in the sound and it was slight. Still a little aggressive for my room and tastes. I switched back to the Ice now with the Slagle and all was right in my world. System synergy strikes again.
Final thoughts. The fit and finish of the Breeze is outstanding. The PE cabinets are nice in cherry and the front baffle is finished excellently. I'm not sure what they have going on in the cabinets, but these little things weigh a lot. The shipping weight is over 75 pounds. As for the sound, The Raal is an amazing driver that blends very well with the woofer. With the right system behind it, it was an amazing little bookshelf speaker.
I want to thank everyone involved for letting me have a chance to listen to them and can't wait to read others thoughts on the Breeze.
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Thanks for posting your thoughts! Posting about what worked in your system will be helpful for others. I've had a few ICE based amps over the years, and always found them to have a very "center focused" soundstage. Did you find that to be true? Did the width and overall size of the soundstage grow with the F5's? Also, did you experiment with placement of the foam pads?
We're glad you enjoyed them, and it was our pleasure getting them into your hands.
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I would tend to agree with you as far as the Ice amps go. Yes, the F5 cast a massive soundstage with the Breeze.
As far as the pads, yep moved them all over the place with the F5 setup. Thought maybe people would think I was nuts if I said I liked them with about 4/5 peaks and more of the tops covered than the bottom of the tweeters.
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Okay guys, I've had the Breeze in house and set-up for a couple hours. What a great opportunity to hear a true high-end product in your native environment. Thanks Ryan, Pete, and team!
System:
Peachtree Decco
Samsung Blu-ray jacked into the Peachtree dac (mass produced big box grade, but hey, it's from 2013)
Rega P1 Turntable
Sanus stands - Too tall @ 29 inches
Synergistic speaker wire
Mapleshade interconnects
Room:
Brick walls, hardwood floors w/rug, 13+ foot ceiling, modest room treatments, pretty big volume for the Breeze to fill. Traditionally difficult to tame "vibrant & lively" room.
Initial Impressions:
As I feared - I AM NOT WORTHY!!! Clearly the rest of my gear is not in the same league as the Vapor Sound, but the taste I am getting is enough to push me down the slippery slope of acquiring electronics worthy of these speakers. I am just now re-entering the hobby after a 10 year absence.
Buzzwords leaping to mind:
- Decay - Now this is what a well integrated RAAL sounds like! Fantastic "decay" on the highs as they just fade in a way that is so natural, with an air of ease and delicacy.
- Holographic - Air & Ambience combine with a wide soundstage that punches well beyond the lateral edge of the speakers add up to a holographic sound I have not experienced in my room.
- Naturalness - These things just sound "right". A drum sounds like a drum. The resonance is right on wood instruments. Vocals are well defined and have an ease to them.
- Resolution - Related to "naturalness" in that they do not strike me as a "hi-fi" speaker that is overly detailed and etched but there is a fresh window into my collection that allows me to peer into the music with at least one layer of cloudiness removed allowing the natural recording to come through in a way that does not feel over-extracted (to steal a wine term).
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:D
Well, if all goes well and the Tour stays on schedule, I'll get to hear them next winter! :violin:
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:D
Well, if all goes well and the Tour stays on schedule, I'll get to hear them next winter! :violin:
I do see the possibility of building a 2nd pair and splitting the tour up ... so maybe sooner.
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:D
Well, if all goes well and the Tour stays on schedule, I'll get to hear them next winter! :violin:
I personally think it is amazing that someone is willing to send a pair of great sounding (from the listener impressions) to all who asked, including the newbies on the AC. If it takes 2 years even, so be it. It is great that Vapor Audio is allowing each enough time to really audition them instead of here they are, okay pass them on to the next person on the list.
Jim
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I personally think it is amazing that someone is willing to send a pair of great sounding (from the listener impressions) to all who asked, including the newbies on the AC. If it takes 2 years even, so be it. It is great that Vapor Audio is allowing each enough time to really audition them instead of here they are, okay pass them on to the next person on the list.
Jim
We know that the biggest hurdle to overcome for an internet direct manufacturer is the trepidation of buying a speaker without listening first. Tours like this help bridge that gap, even though we know some on the tour are only on it out of curiosity, but their feedback will certainly help others down the road. And I love that some newbies are on the list, hopefully being part of the tour will help bring them into the fold.
Those on the list, make sure and thank Pete for handling all the logistics! It's a big job on top of everything else we're doing, which is why I dumped it in his lap 8)
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We know that the biggest hurdle to overcome for an internet direct manufacturer is the trepidation of buying a speaker without listening first. Tours like this help bridge that gap, even though we know some on the tour are only on it out of curiosity, but their feedback will certainly help others down the road. And I love that some newbies are on the list, hopefully being part of the tour will help bring them into the fold.
Those on the list, make sure and thank Pete for handling all the logistics! It's a big job on top of everything else we're doing, which is why I dumped it in his lap 8)
I agree and give you and Pete kudos for the tour.
Jim
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Okay guys, I've had the Breeze in house and set-up for a couple hours. What a great opportunity to hear a true high-end product in your native environment. Thanks Ryan, Pete, and team!
System:
Peachtree Decco
Samsung Blu-ray jacked into the Peachtree dac (mass produced big box grade, but hey, it's from 2013)
Rega P1 Turntable
Sanus stands - Too tall @ 29 inches
Synergistic speaker wire
Mapleshade interconnects
Room:
Brick walls, hardwood floors w/rug, 13+ foot ceiling, modest room treatments, pretty big volume for the Breeze to fill. Traditionally difficult to tame "vibrant & lively" room.
Initial Impressions:
As I feared - I AM NOT WORTHY!!! Clearly the rest of my gear is not in the same league as the Vapor Sound, but the taste I am getting is enough to push me down the slippery slope of acquiring electronics worthy of these speakers. I am just now re-entering the hobby after a 10 year absence.
Buzzwords leaping to mind:
- Decay - Now this is what a well integrated RAAL sounds like! Fantastic "decay" on the highs as they just fade in a way that is so natural, with an air of ease and delicacy.
- Holographic - Air & Ambience combine with a wide soundstage that punches well beyond the lateral edge of the speakers add up to a holographic sound I have not experienced in my room.
- Naturalness - These things just sound "right". A drum sounds like a drum. The resonance is right on wood instruments. Vocals are well defined and have an ease to them.
- Resolution - Related to "naturalness" in that they do not strike me as a "hi-fi" speaker that is overly detailed and etched but there is a fresh window into my collection that allows me to peer into the music with at least one layer of cloudiness removed allowing the natural recording to come through in a way that does not feel over-extracted (to steal a wine term).
Hey man, good little writeup, thanks. I too have a Decco, although it's not hooked up right now. Good sounding piece of kit. What speakers do you have in your system normally?
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Thanks neekomax. I normally have Monitor Audio RS6's hooked-up to the Decco.
Really enjoyed my time with the Breeze. Kudo's again to Ryan and Pete.
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I do see the possibility of building a 2nd pair and splitting the tour up ... so maybe sooner.
Now that would be amazing, Ryan. :green:
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Breezes finally got hooked up this weekend, and I am still getting used to them. But first impressions: these ribbon tweeters are amazing. Like highs? Check these out.
Comparisons and other details to come.
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Looking forward to your impressions ! How do they compare to the Kefs, sp techs?
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Earth to Roscoe!! :o
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It is coming. It is coming.
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To start with, my impressions of the Breeze are very much in accord with what LateApex stated above. And he put it so well that I will just cut-and-paste:
Buzzwords leaping to mind:
- Decay - Now this is what a well integrated RAAL sounds like! Fantastic "decay" on the highs as they just fade in a way that is so natural, with an air of ease and delicacy.
- Holographic - Air & Ambience combine with a wide soundstage that punches well beyond the lateral edge of the speakers add up to a holographic sound I have not experienced in my room.
- Naturalness - These things just sound "right". A drum sounds like a drum. The resonance is right on wood instruments. Vocals are well defined and have an ease to them.
- Resolution - Related to "naturalness" in that they do not strike me as a "hi-fi" speaker that is overly detailed and etched but there is a fresh window into my collection that allows me to peer into the music with at least one layer of cloudiness removed allowing the natural recording to come through in a way that does not feel over-extracted (to steal a wine term).
As for what I can add to the above impressions:
The treble on these RAAL tweeters is excellent. Really first class. A great sense of air, and superb upper freq detail. Lovely decay of notes, and excellent leading edge transients as well.
The bass is nice for what it there. As has been said about other quality monitors: They are very suggestive of what you are missing. I think that the quality of the bass on these monitors contributes to that. The big kettle drum in the Fleet Foxes' first album is nicely resolved and not MIA, though (no surprises here) the visceral impact it has with my full range Von Schweikerts is not there. Likewise notes on the bass guitar, but less is missing there.
They are a bit forward compared to my Von Schweikerts. I might worry a bit about listener fatique though, which is how I feel about many very detailed speakers. A price one may have to pay for so much detail. BUT, and this is a very important caveat: My main complaint about my Von Schweikerts is that they are just a touch laid back for my taste (just a touch, and by a small enough amount that it can be addressed by an appropriate choice of upstream components and cables). So in order to bring the Von Schweikerts a bit more forward, I may have created a chain of equipment and cables that would lead to the Breezes being a touch fatiguing in my set-up. I'd like to hear stlrman's experience on this, as he has lived with Breezes for a while, and I imagine has worked on matching upstream gear with these speakers.
Next up, a comparison with my SP Tech Minis (waveguide monitors that are a good deal larger than the Breezes).
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OK, Breeze vs. the SP Minis.
Yup, the Breeze and that RAAL win on air, high frequency detail and treble in general. The breeze is also less forward than the SP Minis, though the SP Minis less detailed treble may make it a less potentially fatiguing speaker in my system (again, see my note above that I think this forwardness and potential fatigue is likely very much related to my efforts to make my Von Schweikerts a bit more forward. VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE how my system has been voiced for those speakers which differ from the Breezes significantly in their presentation. And as you can ascertain, of late I have been zeroing in on getting what I find to be the sweet spot of forward vs. laid back).
With the diminished treble, the SP Minis have a bit more midrange emphasis. As a much bigger monitor (that goes down to 35Hz!), not surprisingly the bass is more impactful on the SP Mini. Although, as I mentioned above, the bass detail on the Breeze is quite impressive.
And let us not forget that we are talking about comparing the Breeze to Von Schweikerts and SP Tech speakers that retailed for 2-3 times the price of the Breezes.
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I should also say that the SP Minis (no longer made) much more resemble what I heard from the beautiful (to look at and to hear) Vapor Aurora (which I heard prior to the new and improved ceramic tweeter). And the bass and impact of the Aurora blew me away in comparison to my SP Minis (so much so that my main concern with the Auroras would be them potentially overpowering my smaller listening room, though this doesn't seem to keep me from dreaming of the much larger Vapor Nimbus).
Great stuff from Vapor!
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I should also add that for those of you who are big fans of female vocals or acoustic guitars, these speakers really shine in these areas. Loretta Lynn's Van Lear Rose (produced by Jack White) sounds fabulous on these.
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...and then it hit me: My Rogue Stereo 90 has an Ultralinear/Triode switch. On my Von Schweikerts I keep it in Ultralinear to bring things a bit more forward. But flipping the switch to Triode on the Breezes really hits a sweet spot for those speakers. Yup, said it before and I will say it again: all about synergy.
Wow, great detail, and a nice body to the sound. With the concern about listening fatigue dissolved in listening so far.
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Good stuff Roscoeiii, thanks for posting impressions ... finally :lol:
If I can though, allow me to share my thoughts on the issue of fatigue and detail. The standard paradigm is that more detail retrieval means more fatigue. Assuming the same drivers are being used, that would be a fair assumption, because the only way to resolve more details would be through a frequency response imbalance. However, with the RAAL it's inherent ability to resolve details is far greater than with other tweeters. The reason why is energy storage, and the RAAL's lack thereof. It's beyond this thread to post measurements, but suffice to say it's very clear in measurements like Burst/Decay and Etc that the RAAL is far superior in the time domain. I believe that lack of energy storage allows the RAAL to more closely follow a complex waveform known as music.
So that's why I refer to the detail from a RAAL as resolution, not detail. Because the detail from a RAAL is more akin to the extra resolution in a high res recording. Think about that, Redbook vs 24/192, which is more detailed and which is more fatiguing. I think clearly the 24/192 is more detailed and LESS fatiguing. Why? Because the extra bit depth allows it to more closely follow and re-create the complex original waveform ... just like a RAAL.
So at least in my experience and opinion, the RAAL breaks the paradigm of detail and musicality being diametrically opposed. I actually think the RAAL is more detailed and less fatiguing than dome tweeters.
Again, that's my opinion. I don't presume it to be accepted as universal fact. How would you respond to that Roscoe?
Oh, and good idea on the Triode :thumb:
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Yeah, I wouldn't disagree on any of that. This is my first experience with a RAAL, and I don't have a great grip on the ways in which it differs from other tweeters technically and what those technical differences may lead to in the listening experience.
And I should have put more emphasis on " I might worry a bit about listener fatigue though." I haven't been able to play music on these for long stretches at a time unfortunately (had to watch a 3 OT hockey game last night!). So I wasn't able to determine if the detail and forwardness I reported would in fact lead to listener fatigue. But some fatigue has been my experience with other speakers which have been forward and detailed that I have listened to for long stretches. So probably best to defer the question of fatigue to those who have lived longer with the Breezes, such as stlrman.
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(http://pic100.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1125/3938942/24319314/407072757.jpg)
On to the next stop.
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Let me fix that link for you
(http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL1125/3938942/24319314/407072757.jpg)
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Wow. That doesn't look like fun at all. :icon_twisted:
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I got it! A little late though, you're good!
It was a fun week. 8)
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I got it! A little late though, you're good!
It was a fun week. 8)
Impressions! We'd love to hear them :thumb:
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Hey Ryan,
Any more thoughts on getting a second Breeze pair on the tour?
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Hey Ryan,
Any more thoughts on getting a second Breeze pair on the tour?
It's just money :wink:
We have generated some sales from the tour so far. I'd say if that continues, sending another pair out for listening is exactly what we'll do. When money is concerned, I just like to take it slow.
Now come on bigbang, let's hear some listening impressions!
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Not really a review, but here's my take on the Breeze.
In order of impression -
They are HEAVY for a small speaker!
They are not a very sensitive speaker. Don't let that scare you, just an observation that hit me right off the bat, although published numbers would show otherwise. Disclaimer, all measurements were done with my ears.
The transition from the mid/woofer to the RAAL is excellent. I don't know squat about the technical aspects of a cross over, but I'd say this is a fine example by the sound of it. I've had/have two other sets of speakers with RAAL's here, and this speaker implements them as well as any of the others.
What I call "soundstage" was also very good. I did not get much time with them, so position experimentation was minimal. But the little time I spent with them showed promise.
If I had to describe these in one word, I would call them "polite". Your mileage and ears may vary.
There you have it. I'd love to hear their other offerings sometime!
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If I had to describe these in one word, I would call them "polite". Your mileage and ears may vary.
There you have it. I'd love to hear their other offerings sometime!
To help me better understand things, what are you comparing them to, what is your current set up?
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Not really a review, but here's my take on the Breeze.
In order of impression -
They are HEAVY for a small speaker!
They are not a very sensitive speaker. Don't let that scare you, just an observation that hit me right off the bat, although published numbers would show otherwise. Disclaimer, all measurements were done with my ears.
The transition from the mid/woofer to the RAAL is excellent. I don't know squat about the technical aspects of a cross over, but I'd say this is a fine example by the sound of it. I've had/have two other sets of speakers with RAAL's here, and this speaker implements them as well as any of the others.
What I call "soundstage" was also very good. I did not get much time with them, so position experimentation was minimal. But the little time I spent with them showed promise.
If I had to describe these in one word, I would call them "polite". Your mileage and ears may vary.
There you have it. I'd love to hear their other offerings sometime!
thanks for posting bigbang.
Published sensitivity of the Breeze is 86.5dB/2.83V. That's pretty low sensitivity. Not sure why you think the published specs don't reflect the low sensitivity impression. Stiff Breeze on the other hand is about 91dB/2.83V, but it's a 4 Ohm speaker.
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Sorry, I meant that they do not seem as efficient as some with lower numbers than the Breeze.
Current set up is a couple different low/mid fi sources feeding digital to an Onkyo 886 where it turns it to 2.1 or 5.1 depending on the source material. L/R (and surround when applicable) signals are fed to a Sunfire Cinema Grand II AC that was brought back up to spec a couple years ago.
The only processing done to the signal is the x-over to the subs @ 80hz which is done in the 886, then the subs are eq'd with a Velodyne SMS-1. Subs are two SVS SB12 NSD's.
All interconnects are decent quality but nothing exotic.
Room is pretty dead with minor treatments.
Current speakers in house are Selah Tempestas and a couple GR Research 2 way models.
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Current speakers in house are Selah Tempestas and a couple GR Research 2 way models.
Any comparisons to your other speakers?
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Apples, bananas, and oranges!
Temepsta - all there, top to bottom, for better or worse. Good off axis dispersion.
Breeze - more of an "airy" feel to me. It's all there, just in a different presentation. Reminds me of the Salk HT2 TL without the weird off axis anomalies. If you like the voicing of the HT2TL or SS ST's, you need to give these a listen.
GRN2x - forward up top. Punchy mids (in a good way). Not quite as detailed as any of the above.
AV123 X-LS - VERY similar to the N2X but a little more laid back on top.
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My impressions.
Raal tweeter: Best tweeter I ever heard. It makes you notice the brightness and veiling of your current tweeters. It gives musical instruments a realism( piano, particularly) often obscured in typical speakers and is even better than several hard domes I have some experience with( JBL Titanium 035Tia and Infinity CMMD used in Perfect and Cascade series).
Nice spectral balance even when you listen in another room!
Nice organic bass: It has the warmth and definition of my Infinity Perfect 10.1(34 mm p-p) woofer, directly driven from amp and in sealed cabinet. You really don’t need subwoofer with these monitors.
No listening fatigue at all. I attribute this to low coloration (same as even response and low distortion?)
Overall, they really bring out the best in female vocals. I could not stop playing “A Woman’s Heart. A Decade On Blix Street Records” Eve Cassidy, Alison Krauss and Emmylou Harris each sounds beautiful and distinctly different. Yes, the rendition of “Where Have All the Flowers Gone” is just exquisite.
I always like the sound of electrostatic speakers. I wish someone could develop a midrange ribbon to handle the all important 300-3000 Hz band (Bohlender Graebener has several planar drivers). This will bring the sound reproduction to the next level and add a little more realism and transparency to the range covered by the cone midwoofer.
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Knock Knock, who's got em and what do you think about em
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Knock Knock, who's got em and what do you think about em
Steve Clay from Audiogon has them currently but he left on a business trip and didn't send them out before he left. Neekomax was supposed to get them next, but he had to bow out due to a move. So the next on the list is coverto, and he should be getting them on his scheduled date. We'll see if we can get Steve to post his impressions once he gets back.
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10 days later "crickets"
Please consider a Sundog tour - sealed version. :D :D :D
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10 days later "crickets"
Please consider a Sundog tour - sealed version. :D :D :D
I doubt the Sundog would ever be on tour, though I'm sure you'd like that!!!
kbuzz3 (Doug) told me they just arrived today. I'm sure he'll be setting them up very soon.
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I wanted to post a few thoughts on the breeze after giving it a whirl. Please note that my reference is a very unconventional system so all comments must be seen/heard through that prism. I also listen to all equipment with music I like, not audiophile approved stuff for the sake of it. So if you want comments on what jazz at the pawnshop, or what Patricia barber sounds like, this will not help you.
First thought is although I hate to admit it and would like to give some dramatic and mind blowing observation, I must say that my overall impression (what I hear) is pretty much the same from that made in the prior posts. So I wont comment on weight, build quality, aesthetics etc. All of which are exemplary. A very well made product from the cabinet to the speaker posts
My first comment that the general sound of the breezes was the polar opposite of what I expected. I thought I would be attacked by a new fangled hyper “audiophile” tweeter , which would love the sibilance and remind me of the modern “sound” of many of the so called high end brands. No! The Breeze presents a very smooth upper range with super detail but WITHOUTH harshness. IMO a very difficult tight rope to walk. Cudos to the designer here, really well done.
Second, I was impressed with the bass impact. Granted my room is very very small but the bass pressure, and physical presence was really really unexpected. Note I am not talking about bass depth but this standmount conveys the feeling , weight and presence of bass not often found in smaller speakers. I have no idea of measurements but id say to about 40 +- these things give up nothing. This is also surprising to me because my front ceiling is sloped, and generally my room reacts much better to sealed rather then ported speakers.
I cant same the treble bass blend is “seamless” but I don’t get the feeling that the music is disjointed as in some other products ive heard at many price points. With that said the remarkable tweeter will let constantly remind you of how good it is. This not a real negative just a subjective thought.
I am not an imaging or sound staging freak but I must note that the breeze gives this great sense of the recording room and physical placement of players/instruments(where the recording lets it). A great example of this is the hd download of Zeppelin’s celebration day, where the drum kit is literally presented as if right in front of you and you hear the minute differences in sound which gives you spatial cues to let you know where each drum is –left to right. OUTSATNDING –a great showing here, and really makes listening to something like this fun.
So overall this is a really nice speaker which I would wholeheartedly recommend. I cant tell you how it performs on solid state equipment and I don’t listen for depth of stage but this is remarkable tweeter and shows how technology really does help if utilized right.
Now a word of my system.
SOURCE:
Vinyl: Restored empire turntable with Soundsmith Zephyr cartridge/soundsmith phono pre amp. Digital: Sony PS 1 and or MAcbook>audiovarna>schidt modi dac with Audioquest usb
Power- restored vintage -“modded” Sherwood S5000 integrated
Speaker cabling Hudson Audio hybrid silver copper.
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We've been waiting with bated breath for your impressions kbuzz, thank you for taking the time to share them! And we're glad that you enjoyed the Breeze. By any chance did you take pictures of them in your room?
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I thought I would be attacked by a new fangled hyper “audiophile” tweeter , which would love the sibilance and remind me of the modern “sound” of many of the so called high end brands. No! The Breeze presents a very smooth upper range with super detail but WITHOUTH harshness. IMO a very difficult tight rope to walk. Cudos to the designer here, really well done.
+1. Well put.
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Pete-sorry forgot to take pics. I was concentrating on getting them packed up safely and out before all the back to school/coaching takes over all of my time.
I want to add a few minor things here for context. My reference speakers are vintage LS3/5a's with clear day silver cables or Omega Super three narrows with the aforesaid hudson audio cables. With and without a TBI Magellan sub. With this i have both varied impedance and high and low sensitivity references coming from really different design styles.
The breeze is a thoroughly modern design does not fall into that audiophile show style sound. This is a great thing, imho. I also want to add that they make you want to play music and hear things rather then analyze. I dont want to fall into that musicality chesnut as that damns with faint praise but am really impressed with the way they unearth sound without attacking. A great example of this is the new HD Track download of WAR's world is a ghetto. This is an very old recording but a band light yhears ahead of their time, but with the breeze there are so many things going on its like a windex like cleaning on the music. Yet with the beat and drive timing remain strong.
I generally think that many of the HD downloads are iffy at best and may represent more of the repacking the old, but this record is one to spend the bucks on.
Someone above commented that they are polite. I would not use that term. Polite is harbeth, spendor --generally speaking. This tweeter does not sound like those wonderful british designs. A different presentation which can be beguiling.
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Knock Knock, who's got em and what do you think about them
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I received the Breeze monitors about 2 1/2 weeks ago, and between travel have had a chance to give them a good listen. For reference, my standard equipment consists of Lipinski 707 monitors, Lipinski Sub, DEQX HDP3 (not used with Breeze), Sony 5400es player, Lyngdorf amps, Analysis Plus cables throughout.
The speakers arrived well packed and in good condition, except that one binding post had broken off and was laying loose in the box. Other than that the fit and finish of the Vapors was very nice, certainly as nice as other mid-level monitors I've owned including Lipinski, Merlin, Dynaudio, etc. After corresponding with Pete, I resolved the speaker post issue by using a bare wire connection held in place with tape, not audiophile approved, but a good enough temporary fix. Pete sent out a new post that will be in place for members later in the tour.
Cutting to the chase, I was impressed with the Vapor Breeze and consider them among the best of the monitors I've heard in their price range. The Breeze threw a nice sound stage and instruments were well delineated. While the woofer obviously doesn't reach to the lowest frequencies, bass notes were musical and well defined, not muddy even on recordings I think can challenge some speakers (e.g., some Medeski, Martin, Wood). Attack and decay of guitar and piano was also very good (Beethoven, Dominic Miller, John Scofield), and horns had a nice brassiness/burnished quality (Mozart). On somewhat more complex/busy pieces (Wilco, Dan Deacon) different lines in the music were easy to follow and came together nicely.
A few people have thought the Raal tweeter somewhat forward, but I did not find this to be the case for my taste and in my room. Rather I noted airy qualities and spatial cues, detail without harshness. Rooms, recordings, and tastes are different, but I enjoyed the Breeze's mids and highs.
I didn't have a chance to listen to the Vapors in my standard listening room with acoustic treatments and the DEQX unit (my wife and I were between houses and house sitting), and I hesitate to compare the Breeze directly with my Lipinskis (several times as expensive and used with the DEQX in a well treated room) and spendy favorites like Raidho (only heard in diff rooms and with diff equipment), but only because my audio memory is short. It was clear that for my tastes, though, the Breeze compares well to what I've heard at its price and many significantly higher priced speakers, and motivates me to check out the Cirrus (and to definitely consider the Breeze for a system in a smaller room).
Thanks to the folks at Vapor for putting together the tour!
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Thanks to the folks at Vapor for putting together the tour!
It's our pleasure, and thank you for taking the time to share your impressions!
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Any updates on the Breeze tour? It's going on three months since the last update/impressions.
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Don,t know how I missed this :o. Dang dang dang, is there room for another stop (Dallas) on the tour?
Kind regards,
Guy
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Any updates on the Breeze tour? It's going on three months since the last update/impressions.
I think they come to me next.
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For those of you on the Breeze Tour thinking about moving up the Vapor line, I got to visit Ryan and hear Aurora and Nimbus this weekend.
For now, I will just say wow! Both incredibly impressive speakers. I will try to find some time to write up more detailed impressions but they were both fantastic. That Aurora is an amazing standmount, with prodigious bass. Far more than you'd expect from looking at it (internal volume is larger than it appears from looking at them, much like the Nimbus in that respect). And the newer tweeter in the Aurora since I saw an earlier version a few years back sounds great. As impressive a speaker as I remembered.
And the Numbus, just wow. Sounded fabulous on everything I threw at it.
Well worth checking out. Thanks Ryan for your hospitality.
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Good stuff Roscoeiii, thanks for posting impressions ... finally :lol:
If I can though, allow me to share my thoughts on the issue of fatigue and detail. The standard paradigm is that more detail retrieval means more fatigue. Assuming the same drivers are being used, that would be a fair assumption, because the only way to resolve more details would be through a frequency response imbalance. However, with the RAAL it's inherent ability to resolve details is far greater than with other tweeters. The reason why is energy storage, and the RAAL's lack thereof. It's beyond this thread to post measurements, but suffice to say it's very clear in measurements like Burst/Decay and Etc that the RAAL is far superior in the time domain. I believe that lack of energy storage allows the RAAL to more closely follow a complex waveform known as music.
So that's why I refer to the detail from a RAAL as resolution, not detail. Because the detail from a RAAL is more akin to the extra resolution in a high res recording. Think about that, Redbook vs 24/192, which is more detailed and which is more fatiguing. I think clearly the 24/192 is more detailed and LESS fatiguing. Why? Because the extra bit depth allows it to more closely follow and re-create the complex original waveform ... just like a RAAL.
So at least in my experience and opinion, the RAAL breaks the paradigm of detail and musicality being diametrically opposed. I actually think the RAAL is more detailed and less fatiguing than dome tweeters.
Again, that's my opinion. I don't presume it to be accepted as universal fact. How would you respond to that Roscoe?
Oh, and good idea on the Triode :thumb:
I'm curious what your opinion is regarding the Oskar Heil AMT vs. Raal?
Those drivers are now available to the public from PE under the Dayton stencil.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amt2-4-air-motion-transformer-tweeter-4-ohm--275-092
This one looks like it could be used as a mid substitute for a BG neo ribbon in a design like Dennis's Phils.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amtpro-4-air-motion-transformer-tweeter-4-ohm--275-094
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To those in the tour please read this ...
We need to get better communication and follow-through from those on the tour. Pete has been handling things, but he's let me know of some issues getting them to move promptly from one stop to the next. If you hold onto them a week or two longer than expected, it effects dozens of people after you. And the result is cumulative so that now we're way behind the schedule we had hoped for. Please, if you feel like you're not ready to give them the time required to form an opinion in 2-weeks, no more, then let us know so we can remove you from the list.
Also if you get them, we need you to post your thoughts in this thread. MANY people thus far have not done that. It's not for us here at Vapor, it's for all the other people around the country and World who do not have the opportunity to hear them. As long as they've been on tour, anybody should be able to read this thread and know exactly what they offer. But the reviews have been spotty and some no very thorough, so we're still getting a lot of questions for people unsure of what to expect.
A few other vendors told me that we were wasting our time with this tour, that people wouldn't follow through and that it wouldn't give any value in the end. Please don't prove them right!
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I'm curious what your opinion is regarding the Oskar Heil AMT vs. Raal?
Those drivers are now available to the public from PE under the Dayton stencil.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amt2-4-air-motion-transformer-tweeter-4-ohm--275-092
This one looks like it could be used as a mid substitute for a BG neo ribbon in a design like Dennis's Phils.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amtpro-4-air-motion-transformer-tweeter-4-ohm--275-094
This thread isn't the right spot for this discussion, but I'll answer quickly. If you would like more follow up info, please start a new thread.
We've used quite a few AMT's. They are good, better than the vast vast majority of dome tweeters, but still not in the same league as the RAAL. The one thing that the bigger ones can do that the RAAL can't is offer a low crossover point, which can be a valuable tool to a designer. But the RAAL gives more low-level detail retrieval, more refinement and a smoother presentation, and more accurate tone top to bottom.
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Old thread.....but how many here purchased the speaker after testing it?
Thanks,
UL
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Old thread.....but how many here purchased the speaker after testing it?
Thanks,
UL
Saving my pennies for a Vapor higher up I the line. Just need to wait to find a new place to figure out which would be the best fit. But wow, that RAAL tweeter and their implementation of it with the crossover and cabinet are fabulous. Proof of concept and ability. Then I got to hear the Aurora and Nimbus and wow! What a great line of speakers.
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This is not meant to derail the intention of this thread and the need for tour participants to send their thoughts on the Breeze and to stick to the scedule ... but I was planning to sign-up for the tour but the list was too long. Short story: I decided to go one up and I now have the Stiff Breeze on order. If anyone in the Rochester NY area would like to visit for an audition, you're welcome to do so. Also, I spend some of my year in Emerald Isle, NC and so the offer is open to the NC audiophiles as well.
Cheers,
KP
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This is not meant to derail the intention of this thread and the need for tour participants to send their thoughts on the Breeze and to stick to the scedule ... but I was planning to sign-up for the tour but the list was too long. Short story: I decided to go one up and I now have the Stiff Breeze on order. If anyone in the Rochester NY area would like to visit for an audition, you're welcome to do so. Also, I spend some of my year in Emerald Isle, NC and so the offer is open to the NC audiophiles as well.
Cheers,
KP
Please provide review once you've gotten comfortable with them
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The Breeze tour schedule shows they will be coming to me next, is that right :bounce: :scratch: :?:
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The Breeze tour schedule shows they will be coming to me next, is that right :bounce: :scratch: :?:
that is correct. And from you, to us. We want to finally give them a quick inspection before they head out west.
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I guess I can request to add my name for this i am zip code 92618
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This thread isn't the right spot for this discussion, but I'll answer quickly. If you would like more follow up info, please start a new thread.
We've used quite a few AMT's. They are good, better than the vast vast majority of dome tweeters, but still not in the same league as the RAAL. The one thing that the bigger ones can do that the RAAL can't is offer a low crossover point, which can be a valuable tool to a designer. But the RAAL gives more low-level detail retrieval, more refinement and a smoother presentation, and more accurate tone top to bottom.
The big Heil Driver on my IOskar heil Kithara speaker (Swiss) crosses over at 650hz with significant energy down to 450hz even!
Not your Granddaddy heils! LoL