AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Kreepin on 20 Dec 2023, 12:22 pm
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1st off
Hello everyone :D
I've been waiting a long time to get my system setup, my house is almost done with the renovations.
I've been trying to dial in the speaker position for about 3 days now and I can get vocals to hang nicely dead center but instruments still are loose. In the dark, you can still locate the speakers. I've been from 3ft to 5ft from the rear wall and 4ft to 5.5ft from side wall, shooting straight to almost 6.5 inches of toe in (pointing directly at seating position). Equilateral triangle and sometimes pushing seating further out. No matter what I've done, I just cannot get the speakers to disappear and get the music to float out into there space.
I hope my explanation makes sense. I've tried cardas setup guidelines and I just read the thread about extreme toe in and will try that today but what are the general rules for open baffle positioning? My room is 21ft across and 8ft ceilings.
Thanks in advance
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259844)
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We need more info. You said your room is 21' wide, but what is the depth? How far are you sitting from the speakers? No rugs? Any windows? Can you provide more pics of the room? Also, you'll need to optimize the positioning of your subs with the speakers and the room.
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Hello,
It looks like you have many room reflections which are 100% affecting the sound quality. You need at a minimum a rug for the floor and room treatments at the front refleciton points.
Good luck.
Cheers Rod
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Thanks for the replies.
Much of what you guys are pointing out are on my to do list, rugs and some furniture will help with reflections but that stuff is still packed up while we get the last few things taken care of by the contractor. I'm playing the music pretty low to minimize some of the negatives. The space is pretty wide open, leading into the dining and kitchen area
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259847)
Panoramic photos aren't the best but it's the best view I can think of
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Yeah, is that tile flooring :roll: I can't tell how far back your listening position is. The open floor plan could be a problem as well. What type of amp do you run?
I don't know, I would try more of a near field listening. Remember that OB speakers act the opposite of regular speakers in that the closer to the corners, the LESS bass you have.
Have you tried 6 or more feet from the side walls and then try the equilateral triangle?
Mine are toed in, but just so they cross in front of the listening position by a foot or two.
Good Luck!
Here's an old set up guide:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/4544/files/Hologram_M4_User_Manual_R2.pdf
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Your room is beautiful to live in and enjoy but for Audio it is a reverb, echo chamber with all the hard walls, floor, and glass windows. Clap your hands in the middle of your room and see what you hear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qVu02N2vg&t=12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qVu02N2vg&t=12s
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Your room is beautiful to live in and enjoy but for Audio it is a reverb, echo chamber with all the hard walls, floor, and glass windows.
Yeah, that room won't work well for audio. If this room is your only option, then make friends with Mr. Nearfield.
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It is going to tough but it is all the space I have to work with. I moved the subs closer to the wall and pulled them out a bit more to give the M3's more open space behind them, seating position can be anywhere from 18ft to 24ft from the rear wall. I usually try and get the speakers positioned before I drag in the sofa, it's way easier to move a chair 20-50 times than a sofa. Apparently I'm going have to wait a couple more weeks to get the contractor out of the house so I can setup furniture and whatever else the misses has, that stuff will kill a lot of the reflections
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Yeah, is that tile flooring :roll: I can't tell how far back your listening position is. The open floor plan could be a problem as well. What type of amp do you run?
I don't know, I would try more of a near field listening. Remember that OB speakers act the opposite of regular speakers in that the closer to the corners, the LESS bass you have.
Have you tried 6 or more feet from the side walls and then try the equilateral triangle?
Mine are toed in, but just so they cross in front of the listening position by a foot or two.
Good Luck!
Here's an old set up guide:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/4544/files/Hologram_M4_User_Manual_R2.pdf
Thank you for that setup guide, that's exactly what I needed. I'm getting closer to perfect
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Thank you for that setup guide, that's exactly what I needed. I'm getting closer to perfect
Consider yourself fortunate you have such a big space to work with. While I understand the desire to get the system running and dialed in, there is absolutely no point (honestly, zero) in trying to set up your speakers until you have dealt with the reflections. I know I'm just saying the same thing as others but the tile, wall of windows, and glass coffee table are but three of the things I can see that you need to fix if you want to get the most out of your speakers. Just having lots of air around them isn't enough.
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My opinion is that you have one of the better speakers to have in a challenging room. I not saying not to get at least a rug, I think you should at least get that.
Since your speakers have Control Directivity you should try the Extreme Toe-in approach that you mentioned in your top post. It eliminates most of the side wall reflection issues and broadens the sweet spot.
It takes some experimenting but once you got the positioning dialed in, its an amazing setup and also allows others to enjoy the broad sweet spot that Extreme Toe-in brings to the table.
I sit about 7.5 feet away and my speakers are about 8 feet apart. Good Luck!
Video Link > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1NP-s2p_pw
Good write up on the subject > https://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf
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ric gave me exactly what I needed. This is my first time with open baffle speakers, the owners manual provided plenty of useful information, it's a completely different approach than traditional speakers. I can deal with the room issues, this really is not as bad as the last 2 houses I lived in and I got those to work.
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I sit about 7.5 feet away and my speakers are about 8 feet apart.
OP -- this configuration will likely work best for you. At one point, I bought a desk chair with wheels and moved it into the proper position whenever I was doing any critical listening.
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I've moved them and the subs quite a few times over the last 2 days, at the moment I have them 29" out from the wall and 13ft apart with the seating position still kinda playing with between 10ft and 15ft. Not sure what the wife will be ok with but I'm sure she will let me know :lol: At least she is patient to a degree and lets me be with the electronics, I don't know another woman that would allow there husbands drag in 2 monster 18" subs
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A few listening observations
(that doesn't sound right :green:)
Someone described these as a giant wall of sound, I think that really describes it well.
Soundstage is broad and tall, extends well beyond the speakers but lacks depth (front to back) but I can't say that's a bad thing.
The edges are soft and allows for room ambience, if that makes sense.
I wish I had another amp in house to see how they would react to a different presentation, meridian has a sound that pushes everything further back vs the Cary I'm using which puts everything a bit forward.
I have to settle in for a few days and then start switching out some cables and see what happens. I threw down a few moving blankets to kill that reflection, removed the glass table and need something to warm up the space
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I've owned a pair of M3TM's for over 6 years and they are in a Family Room also when in use. Thirteen feet apart sound like a bit to much. Try moving them into 9 feet apart or 10 at the most. Moving them together a bit will eliminate any "whole" in the center and also get that left hand speaker a bit further away from that wall of windows. As for seating position, Early B is correct if you have an "office" chair on wheels use it to determine the best listening position and then mark the spot temporarily on the floor with blue painters tape. I would start at 120% of the distance between the tweeter and work from there. In my room they were 9 feet a part and the listening position was about eleven feet. But every room is different which is why the need to experiment.
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I've owned a pair of M3TM's for over 6 years and they are in a Family Room also when in use. Thirteen feet apart sound like a bit to much. Try moving them into 9 feet apart or 10 at the most. Moving them together a bit will eliminate any "whole" in the center and also get that left hand speaker a bit further away from that wall of windows. As for seating position, Early B is correct if you have an "office" chair on wheels use it to determine the best listening position and then mark the spot temporarily on the floor with blue painters tape. I would start at 120% of the distance between the tweeter and work from there. In my room they were 9 feet a part and the listening position was about eleven feet. But every room is different which is why the need to experiment.
Looking at this beautiful "modern" open floor plan with hard surfaces from floor to ceiling it will be tough for any speakers to sound correct in a room like this UNLESS THEY go for the accoutic panels and rugs etc. This of course will not be possible most likely so if I were in his shoes I find another room to set up a pure audio system where I could make the room proper for audio.
Open floor plans are hard to set up furniture properly no less an audio system.
I sold new home construction and some floor plans to me were almost unworkable for a proper setup in the living areas. Windows on one wall, the other wall the fireplace with bookshelves, which left you with one side wall, the other areas ran into the kitchen or open dining area and then the kitchen. Hard to work in one huge room with no defining walls. Give me the classic dining room, family room, kitchen, and nook area with an loft area open to the family room below.
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Looking at this beautiful "modern" open floor plan with hard surfaces from floor to ceiling it will be tough for any speakers to sound correct in a room like this UNLESS THEY go for the accoutic panels and rugs etc. This of course will not be possible most likely so if I were in his shoes I find another room to set up a pure audio system where I could make the room proper for audio.
Open floor plans are hard to set up furniture properly no less an audio system.
I sold new home construction and some floor plans to me were almost unworkable for a proper setup in the living areas. Windows on one wall, the other wall the fireplace with bookshelves, which left you with one side wall, the other areas ran into the kitchen or open dining area and then the kitchen. Hard to work in one huge room with no defining walls. Give me the classic dining room, family room, kitchen, and nook area with an loft area open to the family room below.
A vast majority of people live in homes that are not ideal for a simple stereo setup, architects don't care about furniture let alone electronics. I'm in Florida, we don't have basements and this house doesn't have a garage either, the house is barely 1500 sqft 2/2 with tile floors throughout, again this is Florida and tile flooring is the go to here. Is it ideal? No. Is it impossible? No. We work with what we got and I'll take a setup that is 80 or 90% of the way there vs throwing a crappy 20 speaker atmos system or soundbar in the room. My open floor plan is a very nice and spacious living area for 2 adults and a little dog, I'm grateful that I was able to demo the fireplace, knock out 2 exterior walls, enclose the L shaped patio and create the living room you now see in the pics. This is 100% better than what it was and I would rather try and make it work instead of saying it isn't.
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Hi,
I share your issue relating to poor rooms. As I suggested why not try a floor rug in front of the speakers and some acoustic panels behind your speakers. My room is worse then your's though :(
Cheers Rod
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Hi,
I share your issue relating to poor rooms. As I suggested why not try a floor rug in front of the speakers and some acoustic panels behind your speakers. My room is worse then your's though :(
Cheers Rod
Well I didn't really want to get into it all but here it goes. 3 years trying to get this house done and I've brought and sold multiple amps, speakers and cables. All the while I really couldn't enjoy any of it, just test to make sure it works. Now that the house is maybe a few months away from being completed, we are considering selling it. I have a lawn chair in the living room because the sofa we purchased is not available yet. I threw down a few moving blankets in front of the speakers because I can't get to the rugs in the storage unit. I'm just trying to enjoy this setup for the little time I can. I went for the M3's because they require less space to setup which works well for this space.
I actually posted the speakers for sale and will most likely part ways with a few other things. Moving sucks, my subs have a few scrapes from the last move.
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Hi,
I also feel your pain as I was itinerant for a couple of years and everytime I moved I did damage to my speakers. Now that I'm settled I won't be upgrading or moving my speakers again.
Good luck.
Cheers Rod
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Hi,
I also feel your pain as I was itinerant for a couple of years and everytime I moved I did damage to my speakers. Now that I'm settled I won't be upgrading or moving my speakers again.
Good luck.
Cheers Rod
Moving really sucks but hopefully this will be the last time for many many years
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I don’t know. I’m reading a lot of doom and gloom about your room (sorry for the rhymes), and no doubt there are a lot of reflective surfaces to contend with, but, it seems to me, the size of your room is a plus. Open baffle speakers by design are supposed to be more forgiving when it comes to sidewall reflections and boundary issues generally. I think once you have carpet down, or floor rugs, furniture installed, and art and whatnot on the walls, you’re going to have a much more subdued acoustic environment. I would suggest moving the speakers a little closer together, which will further reduce sidewall interaction and may help clarify some of that diffuse quality of the instrument placement in your image you’re describing. I would also suggest you pull them a bit further into the room, which will reduce boundary issues with the wall behind the speakers. Sitting nearfield will definitely help reduce side reflections, but can be peculiar in a living situation, and moving the speakers both in from the side walls and out from the wall behind may give you close to the same result. You won’t really know what you’ve got until your rugs and other furnishings are in, but I’m betting those, plus these small speaker placement changes, will make a big difference. In any case, it won’t cost you a small fortune in panels to find out. But I don’t think you should despair of your room being suitable for audio. Bigger rooms are easier to cope with than smaller rooms. I bet it won’t take much to make your room as good as most home setups. Good luck.
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I don’t know. I’m reading a lot of doom and gloom about your room (sorry for the rhymes), and no doubt there are a lot of reflective surfaces to contend with, but, it seems to me, the size of your room is a plus. Open baffle speakers by design are supposed to be more forgiving when it comes to sidewall reflections and boundary issues generally. I think once you have carpet down, or floor rugs, furniture installed, and art and whatnot on the walls, you’re going to have a much more subdued acoustic environment. I would suggest moving the speakers a little closer together, which will further reduce sidewall interaction and may help clarify some of that diffuse quality of the instrument placement in your image you’re describing. I would also suggest you pull them a bit further into the room, which will reduce boundary issues with the wall behind the speakers. Sitting nearfield will definitely help reduce side reflections, but can be peculiar in a living situation, and moving the speakers both in from the side walls and out from the wall behind may give you close to the same result. You won’t really know what you’ve got until your rugs and other furnishings are in, but I’m betting those, plus these small speaker placement changes, will make a big difference. In any case, it won’t cost you a small fortune in panels to find out. But I don’t think you should despair of your room being suitable for audio. Bigger rooms are easier to cope with than smaller rooms. I bet it won’t take much to make your room as good as most home setups. Good luck.
Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.
Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.
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Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.
Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.
Depth will come when you have some acoustic panels on the front wall behind the speakers. I had my loft painted and when It was done I listened to my system with just curtains rehung and no acoustic panels. The sound was all forward with spatial clues and imaging all over the place with the whole room having a vast soundstage with no specific placement or imaging. Heard sounded around me above me and reminded who my room sounded years ago before I started spending money on the room and not just more gear. But the thing is back then we just sat there and accepted how the system sounded without having the experience of fixing room acoustics. So do you need them no, but once you hear about the improvement on your system there is no going back because now you know what all is missing. I have my system in my loft area above the family room so I have no back wall behind where I sit, the next wall is 45' away yet I still needed the fitted with panels, so an open room still needs attention. We can listen to music downstairs which we do nightly for an hour or so before dinner. So I am not isolated in a room. Open baffle speakers image well and have excellent depth. They are very much like a panel speaker in that regard. My room is over 20 years old with 3 different speakers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259958)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259959)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259962)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259963)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259964)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259965)
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Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.
Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.
The main issue in your original post was this: "No matter what I've done, I just cannot get the speakers to disappear and get the music to float out into there space." Most of the responses you've received have been attempts to help you resolve this issue, and your room is the biggest factor in overcoming this. Nevertheless, with your room in its current form, you should be able to get the speakers to disappear with proper placement and seating position. With such a cavernous space, the further you sit away from your speakers, the more localizable they become. Also, bass is an important contributor to the perception of depth. With OB speakers, your subs must be close to your speakers (i.e., 2 feet). One more thing -- OB speakers should never sound like a "giant wall of sound." Take a moment and sit 10 feet from your speakers and report back on whether you're hearing a difference.
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Depth will come when you have some acoustic panels on the front wall behind the speakers. I had my loft painted and when It was done I listened to my system with just curtains rehung and no acoustic panels. The sound was all forward with spatial clues and imaging all over the place with the whole room having a vast soundstage with no specific placement or imaging. Heard sounded around me above me and reminded who my room sounded years ago before I started spending money on the room and not just more gear. But the thing is back then we just sat there and accepted how the system sounded without having the experience of fixing room acoustics. So do you need them no, but once you hear about the improvement on your system there is no going back because now you know what all is missing. I have my system in my loft area above the family room so I have no back wall behind where I sit, the next wall is 45' away yet I still needed the fitted with panels, so an open room still needs attention. We can listen to music downstairs which we do nightly for an hour or so before dinner. So I am not isolated in a room. Open baffle speakers image well and have excellent depth. They are very much like a panel speaker in that regard. My room is over 20 years old with 3 different speakers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259958)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259959)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259962)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259963)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259964)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259965)
Nice setup, I had acoustic panels but there is no way the wife is going to let me put that up in this house, I can get away with a lot but there are limits :roll:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259966)
I do give up the seat to her every so often and she enjoys when I drag in new gear. She has picked her favorite amps so far, Odyssey Stratos Extreme mono blocks, and now she is learning about acoustics a lot more because of these speakers and the wide open space. She has been getting into this a bit more over the last 5 or 6 years and slowly getting addicted. It's all part of my plan :green:
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Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.
Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.
I’ve already said what I have to say about the room, but I wanted to add that I agree completely with your preference for having your music in the living area of the home not in a dedicated space. I absolutely believe the music should be where the life of the home is and not quarantined off in a monk’s cell for listening purity. Even if I had unlimited funds, I’d build an acoustically perfect living room, not a separate listening space. I’m kidding about the monk’s cell, as I can imagine why someone would want a dedicated room as a kind of hifi sanctuary, it’s just not my preference. Of course, as I don’t have unlimited funds, like so many of us, I have to contend with the compromises audio in a home living space engenders. So be it. Again, good luck with yours.