Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps

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catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #360 on: 6 Nov 2022, 01:17 pm »
Noah, as detailed in this thread, I did simultaneously audition both the Class D Minigan 5's and the Orchard Audio Starkrimsions.  It's all set out. But in a sentence, the Class D MiniGans had more flesh on the bone.  This observation was admitted by Leo, at Orchard , as common among customers who tried the Orchard Starkrimsons and returned them. Leo's advice - add tubes somewhere in the chain.  But, like NewZoo, I couldn't be happier with the MiniGans.  They transform the M3's.

NoahH

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #361 on: 6 Nov 2022, 01:33 pm »
Noah, as detailed in this thread, I did simultaneously audition both the Class D Minigan 5's and the Orchard Audio Starkrimsions.  It's all set out. But in a sentence, the Class D MiniGans had more flesh on the bone.  This observation was admitted by Leo, at Orchard , as common among customers who tried the Orchard Starkrimsons and returned them. Leo's advice - add tubes somewhere in the chain.  But, like NewZoo, I couldn't be happier with the MiniGans.  They transform the M3's.

Thanks Catluck. With the thread depth and coming in late, I read through the first couple pages and did a site search and could not find it. Thanks for the cliff notes.

RonN5

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #362 on: 6 Nov 2022, 01:37 pm »
I own the Sapphire M3s...and I had the Orchard Audio Starkcrimson Stereo Utra (Leo's most expensive amp) (not the older, lower powered monos) in my system for the past week.  I also had it in my buddies system who has Maggie 3.7i's and both a Parasound Halo A21 and a Sanders Magtech...we compared both to the Stereo Ultra...You can go, to this link and read the comparison by scrolling about half way down the post to my post titled "what flavor do you prefer today?"

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amp-tour.1148415/page-8

(I have a Belles 22a dual 12au7/mosfet hybrid preamp...my buddy was using a Lyngdorf 2170 integrated, preamp section only and set to neutral)

Meanwhile, here is MY review of the Stereo Ultra in my system with the M3 Sapphires...as you will see, I liked the amp a lot...but I like my current amp a lot even though they sound different:

"I’ve had the Ultra playing in my home system for the past five days alternating with my own amp which is Class a/b, biased to 15watts of class a with 210 watts into 4 ohms, stereo not dual mono and intentionally voiced with 2nd and 3rd harmonics to have bloom, warmth, sweetness which some audiophiles covet and others disdain. If only it were that simple...

After selling the 2Cherry and living with its replacement (Wells Audio) for the past five months, I was pretty sure I had become a ‘class a’ convert. Now, I can honestly say that I could be happy with either the Ultra or the Wells because for some music selections I prefer the Ultra and for other music I prefer the Wells. In the perfect world, one would own both with a set up location that made switching back and forth easy based on the music being played.

Here is an example. I discovered this piano prodigy on Youtube, Luca Sustek, and was memorized by his sound...check him out, but hang in there until at least the 2:20 mark!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD_bspN-RYs

I ordered his CD -  Luca Sustek “Nuway” and darned if on half the cuts, I preferred the clarity, detail and slam of the Ultra presentation while on other cuts I preferred the sweetness of the Wells. I’m pretty sure though that the Ultra is the more accurate portrayal of the piano.

Now another CD:

Rush – Presto the first two songs “Show Don’t Tell” and “Chain Lightning”...both amps sound great!!

Ultra – clear, enveloping, and slightly more low end, the sound floats but not as much as the Wells

Wells – a little less clear, slightly different tone, slightly more enveloping

Next Up:

Eric Church – Chief country music with a great beat, strong vocals and beautiful harmonics

Ultra – Clarity and Speed, the attack on the strings is awesome, snare drum and bass clarity, beautiful, big soundstage

Wells – Lush, bigger bass but not as fast or deep, also a big soundstage, strummed strings, beautiful

Alex Fox – Cest La Vie Nylon String Latin Guitar with strong back beat support and no vocals

Ultra – Deep, powerful, clear low end….man, those strings when picked, beautiful

Wells – Deeper low end but a smidge less punch, beautiful tone when the guitar body is tapped

Hamilton Broadway Show – 2 CD set

Two words describe the difference between the amps...the Ultra is crystal clear, you can understand every word….the Wells is more warm, the presentation less intense

Jethro Tull – Original Masters

“Locomotive Breath”...Ultra wins the piano clarity and tone Wells wins the flute and sound stage

“Witches Promise” – Ultra wins the flute and vocals...but the Wells vocals have more body

“Skating Away” – the xylophone on the Ultra is hauntingly beautiful

“Tales From The Woods” – both great but different

“Thick As A Brick” – again, both great but different

We all have our own way of listening to and auditioning new equipment. Not to be presumptuous, I’d like to throw out a suggestion to the remaining people on the “amp travel list”….or to anyone that just pulls the trigger and buys it:

Don’t listen to your current amp for at least a day before the Ultra arrives. Then put the Ultra in your system and listen to it exclusively for 2 or 3 days so that you really get to hear what it can do. Then try some back and forth with your amp and finally a few more days with only the Ultra.

I think there is a pretty good chance that if you bought the Ultra and try this method, you will decide before the 14 days is up that it belongs in your system permanently.

Four things about the Ultra will jump out at you with this method:
The background between notes is completely black and the presentation is CLEAR
It is not bright or harsh
It has really good detail and authority from top to bottom
It does a really good job of defining vocal and instruments location

That was the end of the review....what should I try next?

I really have to give the Atmasphere Class D's a try because Ralph has said that similar to the Ultra, their distortion profile is very, very low...but unlike the Ultra, they do have some 3rd harmonic as the dominant remaining distortion, which if I understand correctly, might just result in clarity plus a little bit of warmth.

Because I was going to review the Ultra, I turned off my subwoofer a week prior to the amps arrival and used my Wells to slightly repositioned the Sapphires an extra 2" out from the rear wall to better tune the low end without the sub...not only don't I need the sub in the system any more...the bottom end tone became even better without it.  It's really a shame that Clayton isn't going to be making this speaker in the future...the sound that they can put into my really large listening area is really special!



Mr. Big

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #363 on: 6 Nov 2022, 02:21 pm »
Great review and like I've heard and the one thing that came to mind mind also and these Class D's were 7K and up, traditional amps all have more warmth and body, while not as clear or fast. But to my ear with my eyes closed the non class D sounded more real like people playing in the room, while the Class D sounded fast and clean, but did not give you the impression of real people playing in the room, just great reproduction of sound, really it what you would prefer.

RonN5

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #364 on: 6 Nov 2022, 02:32 pm »
Mr. Big

That is why I suggested listening to only the Ultra for several days by itself...with quick amp switching listening to one track at a time on each amp, it is sometimes obvious that one has more warmth....or one has more clarity.  But if you listen to the Ultra for several days...maybe even several weeks....and then put a "warmer" amp back into your system, you may find that you really miss the clarity and speed.

Yes, it is preferences, but it is also what your ear/brain is currently tuned to...that is why I wondered if Ralph's amp might be the somewhere in between amp.

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #365 on: 6 Nov 2022, 03:54 pm »
RonN5 - thanks very much for your detailed and careful observations. Such a PITA to go to the trouble you went to.  I'm sure my thanks stands in for all of us reading this thread. Should provide some guidance to readers. It's interesting to note how we audiogeeks value various aspects of presentation. Perhaps the most salient comment to me, notwithstanding that I find your observations consistent with mine insofar as they relate to the GanFet amps (having no experience with the other amps you reference), is your disappointment that SA will no longer manufacture the M3.  I find these speakers to be sufficient to vanquish my decades long pursuit of the holy grail "sound."  But, to my astonishment, that only happened after inserting GanFets (and using a tube pre-amp).  I find myself not just almost disbelieving myself, but also comforted to think (perhaps a transitory illusion) that I might have stepped off the merry-go-round of component(s) switching.....  Until, of course....?

RonN5

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #366 on: 6 Nov 2022, 06:32 pm »
catluck....

My disappointment stems from my feeling that the M3 Sapphire is such a great speaker that it "deserves" to continue to be made.  On the other hand, I have a friend with Spatial M3 Tride Masters and he's never found anything he prefers...including the newer Spatials.

I hope Clayton recovers from what ails him and is able to continue practicing his craft as I'm sure that whatever creations come next, they will be great as well.

Some day, I'd like to hear a pair of X3's...but no one nearby "as in 2 hours or so"....seems to have a pair I could audition...you know, just scratch the itch.

Mr. Big

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #367 on: 7 Nov 2022, 02:37 pm »
Mr. Big

That is why I suggested listening to only the Ultra for several days by itself...with quick amp switching listening to one track at a time on each amp, it is sometimes obvious that one has more warmth....or one has more clarity.  But if you listen to the Ultra for several days...maybe even several weeks....and then put a "warmer" amp back into your system, you may find that you really miss the clarity and speed.

Yes, it is preferences, but it is also what your ear/brain is currently tuned to...that is why I wondered if Ralph's amp might be the somewhere-in-between amp.

I always say audio systems are like cooking a good meal, each of us has preferred spices we like which changes the same dish taste made in a different way.
On top of that changes just one power cord in your system and you can change the sound. So say my amp with 3 different power cords can sound different each highlighting a different area of the presentation and dynamics. My vise is body and weight, along with natural transparency. Anything that takes me to the many current sounding systems, of clean, fast, and highly ultra detail leaving the rest behind is not my cup of tea, and being in audio stores lately, I just shake my head at the sound they are selling. The best advice I got was from a speaker designer, he said when a person speaks to you how to they sound, if they were standing from of you in your audio room how would they sound and how loud they be?  One person speaking would have a body to their voice, a chest and throat sound, an acoustic guitar sounds relaxed, not just strings but the body of the instrument, piano sounds have detail, but also, it is a percussive instrument. That has stayed with me for 30 years when I listen to a system. The guy was from a new upstart company called Legacy Audio, Bill's wife was an audiologist who told him how the human ear hears and perceives things and he worked on his designs bearing her insight, which is why Bill's speaker always have sounded musical, and the 2nd thing he told me a speaker has to have a good bottom-end because that impact everything above it and really supports the mids and highs. This is why adding a sub-woofer to a speaker that lacks bottom ends improve the sound so much for the main speaker. Spatial have that good bottom end.

orchardaudio

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #368 on: 7 Nov 2022, 03:48 pm »
I own the Sapphire M3s...and I had the Orchard Audio Starkcrimson Stereo Utra (Leo's most expensive amp) (not the older, lower powered monos) in my system for the past week.  I also had it in my buddies system who has Maggie 3.7i's and both a Parasound Halo A21 and a Sanders Magtech...we compared both to the Stereo Ultra...You can go, to this link and read the comparison by scrolling about half way down the post to my post titled "what flavor do you prefer today?"...

RonN5 thank you very much for your time in auditioning these amps.

abd1

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #369 on: 7 Nov 2022, 04:39 pm »
Jusy an FYI I am selling my LSA GaN 350 amp. It is listed here on the classifieds. It was originally owned by a member of the San Francisco Audiophile Society and used with Spatial speakers and got a great review from the original owner. If you have Spatials this is a great match. It is the best sounding solid state amp I've ever had, but I am a tube guy ultimately. If you want to know more pm me. If it's not appropriate to post this here forgive me and delete the post.

RonN5

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #370 on: 7 Nov 2022, 05:08 pm »
To  AC members...especially with Sapphires or Maggies - I would encourage you to contact Leo and hopefully arrange a trial...I think there is a good chance you will be "taken" with the way the Ultra presents music.

Leo, thank you for letting me in on the tour and for answering my endless questions...not many would do that and it was very much appreciated!

Don_S

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #371 on: 7 Nov 2022, 05:10 pm »
Still hoping to hear a GaN amp near Sacramento, CA.

orchardaudio

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musicdre

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #373 on: 9 Nov 2022, 12:58 am »
had a chance to hear the ClassD MiniGan amp in my system thru my M3s.  great amp!  very very close in sound to my Nord One Ncore amp.  the bass thru the minigan may have been a tiny bit stronger.  the sound thru the nord may have been a tiny bit more spacious.  but any differences were far outweighed by the similarities.   probably the 2 best amps i have had in my system.  either would make me happy.  the performance/price ratio on these is off the charts.

PS the mini is surprisingly tiny physically


catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #374 on: 9 Nov 2022, 02:04 pm »
Musicdre - Thanks for weighing in.  I couldn't agree more - price/performance off the charts.   As noted too many times,  that's without considering any of the other remarkable virtues of class D and especially GanFet tech (although you hint at one aspect when mentioning the small size of the MiniGan).  BTW, were you using the MiniGan Stereo amp or the monoblocks?  I note that Stereophile reviews 2 GanFet amps this month.  A tricky business when the profit margin per unit with class D kit collapses in comparison to traditional tech (given how magazine revenue is so dependent on advertising from traditional sources).  Will we see brick'n'mortar stores, the few that are left, venturing into class D products? Or, will direct internet sales supplant other sales models? Interesting times.

franSSS

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #375 on: 10 Nov 2022, 07:30 am »
had a chance to hear the ClassD MiniGan amp in my system thru my M3s.  great amp!  very very close in sound to my Nord One Ncore amp.  the bass thru the minigan may have been a tiny bit stronger.  the sound thru the nord may have been a tiny bit more spacious. 

I am curious. How long ago was this comparison? Was it the latest unit/S from CLASS D?

Like Catluck i am also curious to know it it was the Mono Blocks or the Stereo unit.

musicdre

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #376 on: 10 Nov 2022, 12:51 pm »
I am curious. How long ago was this comparison? Was it the latest unit/S from CLASS D?

Like Catluck i am also curious to know it it was the Mono Blocks or the Stereo unit.

yes CLASSD audio. stereo unit.  a couple of weeks ago, but it was not brand new.  did not manage to note the exact model of mini gan, if there are more than one stereo model.  this one was so tiny that i cant imagine there would be a smaller one.

genjamon

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #377 on: 10 Nov 2022, 01:13 pm »
It’s been reported on this thread that ClassDAudio implemented an update to their board in the last month or two that supposedly has marginal performance improvements. So you probably didn’t hear the latest board if it wasn’t recently purchased, but I doubt the difference in sound would be major. Catluck started this thread with his enthusiasm over the sound before the new boards came out.

musicdre

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #378 on: 10 Nov 2022, 01:20 pm »
It’s been reported on this thread that ClassDAudio implemented an update to their board in the last month or two that supposedly has marginal performance improvements. So you probably didn’t hear the latest board if it wasn’t recently purchased, but I doubt the difference in sound would be major. Catluck started this thread with his enthusiasm over the sound before the new boards came out.

yes- the unit i heard was not from the past few months.  wonder how one can tell?  serial numbers?  when companies make changes like this - it would be great if the model designation would reflect that.

genjamon

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #379 on: 10 Nov 2022, 01:32 pm »
Not sure if there are serial numbers that would help, but I’m sure anyone who bought one could email Tom for clarification. He is quite responsive.