Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps

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NoahH

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #220 on: 6 Oct 2022, 04:33 am »
One of things that interested me about the Class D Audio Mini GaN 5 was that they designed their own amp and power supply. They have their own boards made. They are not buying pre-made modules from someone else.

In fact, I'm not sure that there is an off-the-shelf GaN FET class D module like there is with the Purifi, Hypex, or ICE MOSFET Class D.

Is that correct? Orchard, Class D Audio, Audion, and Atmasphere use their own designs. Are the Peachtree and LSA GaN FET amps using a pre-made amp module?

Correct at the moment, but I believe that Orchard is actually selling their internals as a module - the downstream products have just not hit market yet.

franSSS

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #221 on: 6 Oct 2022, 10:04 am »
The Mini GaN5 is phenomenal at its price point -- no debate there.  As consumers, we do it all the time -- buy a less expensive product and then complain that it doesn't have premium parts and features.   

Ballanced 10/10!

franSSS

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #222 on: 6 Oct 2022, 10:43 am »
The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks (with WBT binding posts) hit 150 hours of break-in this morning, and the sound opened up and relaxed a bit more. Although further improvements may come, I think there is plenty to comment on at this point.

In brief, the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are better in every respect than the Pass Labs XA-25, and I plan to happily keep them.

The exceptional, natural resolution of the Mini Gan 5’s allows the communication between musicians to come through more clearly. Being able to hear the string section in an orchestra have a call and response with the woodwinds buried deeply in the recording is the kind of thing that makes the Mini GaN 5’s such a revelation. The technical promise of higher switching speed in a GaN FET does not appear to be just something for electrical engineers to appreciate on a spec sheet or the test bench. It’s not just an issue of reducing the size of the device or significantly improving efficiency or lowering costs. GaN FETs, or at least this implementation of them, do seem to open up new horizons for reproducing real, palpable music still hiding in recordings, even those from more than half a century ago.

I don’t know how much more one would have to spend to get a better amp than the Mini GaN 5 monblocks. Perhaps the AHB2 and the XA-25 were not optimal matches to the Sapphires, and there are other Class A or Class A/B amps in the $3-5k price range that are on par with the Mini GaN 5’s. It seems unlikely, however.



Thank you for a very detailed evaluation as always. Very Pro of you. I recalled somewhere in the past you mentioned the LTA 40 + being in the same ball park as the x25. This has me very excited since i am waiting for my Set of Gan 5 to land. Now just to get them through customs. The Gan 5 mono's will pair with the M4's due to room size.

franSSS

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #223 on: 6 Oct 2022, 10:58 am »
Far, far better to support a small company with good cred making a brilliant product than supporting an image of greatness in my mind. Eventually all warranties run out. Better to own a product that seems to be relatively easy to fix. If they make things from the ground up themselves then to a large extent chances is a qualified HIFI tec will suffice.

 Then again i could not care for image as long as the product delivers. Almost all equipment fail sooner or later. Often less is better. The less components the less can fail I think. Less heat? Less electronics to cook.

Besides maybe the hifi tecs can chip in; What is more likely to get fixed? Solid state, Tube amps or Class D in general? Depends on many factors i suppose.

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #224 on: 6 Oct 2022, 03:00 pm »
I recalled somewhere in the past you mentioned the LTA 40 + being in the same ball park as the x25.

To clarify, I listened to the LTA 40+ integrated with a Lampizator Amber (?) DAC and the M3 Sapphires at Linear Tube Audio. I did not have the LTA 40+ in my system at home. They were in the same ball park in the sense that I did not feel the need to try the LTA 40+ at home after I had the XA25. Someone directly comparing them in the same system would likely favor one or the other.

Mr. Big

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #225 on: 6 Oct 2022, 03:48 pm »
MR. Big,
I hear you. You mention some of my fave (particularly Pass whose products I've owned and loved).  But I'll tell you this: after holding the Class D Audio, and again this is not a fly-by-night enterprise unless you consider 14 years fly-by-night and/or that Tom Rost is being untruthful when asserting he's been designing/selling amps for that long, it's a solid kit that inspires nothing but confidence. When you turn the units on, no spitting, popping, or clicking, nothing but dead silence. And, as noted in the threads herein, extraordinary sound.  Moreover, I fear that many consider the overbuilt audio jewelry to be the norm. I've come to respect the audio engineer who's able to resist the tendency to pander by building large and heavy when neither are required nor honoring "form follows function."  And I get that aesthetics is wholly meaningful. I just don't discount makers who can't/wodon't engage that paradigm.  Some of my all-time favorite amps were built by a gentleman, George Wright, now passed away. George once built me a pair of 2A3 amps and the casement and transformers showed external signs of rust. Garage-built looking shit.  But their sound? Their reliability? Their soul? Glorious and unimpeachable. Just like George - one of the kindest men I ever met.  Likewise, Doyman Planov, in Prague built my custom Hartung OTL which are utterly remarkable and the antithesis of the audio jewelry so common today.  George and Domen and Don Hoglund (Granite Audio) are small-time makers of gear that has something most of the McAudio makers do not - soul, sauce, juice.  Perhaps I've been lucky in that my gear has proven so reliable - indeed every bit as reliable as the big boys and, in fact, more so. I won't tell you how many times I had to return my PS Audio transports with their $18 ASUS drive.  And, at  $200/pop to send back to CO, wait several weeks waiting, shipping to and fro...After the first time,, I took the damn transport apart myself, saw the shitty cheap ASUS drive, and bought 6 off Amazon. Ended up replacing them 4x's over the next 2 years.  And, be clear, I respect PS Audio and hope they continue to do well. Good people work hard to build good products. Similar stories for other big boy makers. The point is that thinking the "big boys" do better quality or design because they're the big boys has proven, for me, to be utterly fallacious. I've represented several makers whom I won't/cacan't identify and I know the financial pressures associated with commercial audio.  Maybe if more folks saw the "sausage" being made they might not invest so much confidence in the big-boy paradigm.  FWIW

Well said and I appreciate your views. I do know from working for Sony, how much design and parts went into their high-quality ES lines back in my time with them. Look inside of an SCD1 SACD CD player, it was a work of art in all facets, It looked like a piece of medical equipment, the layout, how noise was lowered, the drive, and on and on, plus the quality of the work and layout. I saw inside of other units by small high-end companies, that were crap compared to the SCD1 and charged 3-4 times more, so I understand having an audiophile name brand does not mean quality. PS Audio's new SACD transport uses the Marantz SA-10 transport, so that is a solid transport, their 1st one looks like OEM crap to me, and I knew it was not that good long term.

Esoteric nowadays builds as Sony, Luxman also, and a few others, their designs are just beautiful, along with fantastic power supplies, and that is where the rubber meets the road on any unit is the power supply, it makes or breaks any unit, and having built some tube gear back in the day I can tell you that as I beef up the power supplies even in the preamp the better it sounded, which is why some gear weighs so much, my old Esoteric k-01 weighed in at 70lbs if I recalled, you say hell its a CD player can't weigh that much, well look at the design, not one large transformer but 4, transport, and on and on, was it worth 20K? I say yes when I have seen others selling at 10K with OME parts and Phillip pro drives and cheap power supplies but hidden with a knock-out outer casing.  I know also that a small designer can build good products Doug Sachs is well known, Dave Belles gear is very musical.

My tube preamp sounded better than my Audio Research one did, but it was basic in looks, but my power supply was a lot better and my design had fewer parts in it but did mine have resale value even though it sounded great, nope, but ARC did which I see selling today at over $3,000 because its the SP3A vintage 1970's with a myth built around it, while in fact, its sound was so, so, In fact, I looked at the design and took out some of the unneeded parts and it sound night and day better, in fact, ARC was doing that also later when they offered updates, I beat them to the punch on that. But I could not give mine away, so I gave it to a friend who used it for the next 20 years! So I know that being small does not mean you cannot build good-sounding gear, but I also know this hobby, and most never keep their gear and are always looking for the next big thing/upgrade and that is why I feel for myself I buy gear that holds value, so when I sell it I can get some of my money back to buy another replacement product.

As I aged and learned I fully accept now that when it is a product is real, real good then change becomes for change sake to get a different sound and this is what these new class D amps offer from reading all the positive posts. But I also read many who have tried them and while they liked them said what they missed was color, tone, overtones decay, and body and weight to the music compared to there class A/B units, though those units did not sound as clean and fast, so it like tube vs. SS, each is very good in their own way, as CD is to vinyl.

I like the future of Class D and at my age I would love he light weight of those amps, in fact I sold my McIntosh amp not for sound improvements but due to the 110lb weight, so I am down now to only 75lb amp which was much more manageable for me at 71. I never would look at 100 lb plus amps today as I did in my past 40 years in this hobby. God my Mark Levinson 333.5 I think weighed in at 150lbs, and I could mage that when needed. Those days are long gone...smile! Class D might be my final act...smile!

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #226 on: 6 Oct 2022, 04:12 pm »
Mr. Big,
Of all the really big boys SONY is probably the brand I most respect.  I owned the XA-7, XA-54 (I think these are correct model #'s) and I loved them. CD players both and they sounded so warm, detailed and were absolutely reliable in all respects.  Sony's first SACD player, as you correctly note, IMO, was a work of art. Takes me back.... Yeah, as I've also noted, I'm through with 100 lb. amps as well. If there's a disconnect between our views re: Class D (but ONLY as it concerns GanFets NOT MOSFETS), it's that the gulf between tubes and GanFets re: midrange flesh, juice, soul, has, IMO, been reduced so convincingly as to allow GanFets to take the lead sonically (they're just quieter - and that's without considering their other enormous advantages in weight, cost, heat, materials consumption, etc.)  And, remember, I'm a TUBE GUY for over 35 years (300B, KT88, 6550, 2A3, 6C33, 845). I've still got 5 pair of tube monoblocks.  But as I'm sitting here listening to Keith Jarrett, Radiance, the leading edge, decay, rich timbre, and tonal density of piano notes, all seemingly perfect (or, at least wholly satisfying) leave me wanting nothing in comparison to tubes. NO THING. Symbols, jazz guitar, stand-up bass, everything sounds better to me with GanFets than with tubes. It's not a "different" thing as you suspect- it's a greater realism thing. A more alive thing. A far more satisfying thing.

musicdre

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #227 on: 6 Oct 2022, 04:24 pm »
The Gold Note is a beautiful piece but it's not really a GanFet amp. It uses MOSFETS in the output stage and features GanFets only in its output oscillator.  That it runs cool might be because it appears to have a built-in fan! See "https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-this-gold-note-pa-10-power-amplifier.24984/"  Myself, I've never been a fan of built-in ....  GanFet output stages don't have, don't need, built-in fans. They don't even, or barely, have heat sinks! So this design is not really exploiting GanFets in the way that Orchard Audio, Class D Audio, Atma-Sphere, etc., do (and not that you claimed it does).  But if the most compelling aspects of the new GanFet technology are its relative simplicity, light weight, low cost, low heat dissipation, small package, and extraordinary sound quality, it seems GanFet output stages are required.  Nonetheless, as has been said too many times here, if you enjoy the sound...

whoa i was not aware of this twist about GanFet utilization.  thanks for the elucidation catluck.  the GoldNote does have: extraordinary sound, light weight, small footprint, cool running (i dont see or hear a fan or feel any air or heat escaping - maybe i run it at a low level?).

Mr. Big

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #228 on: 6 Oct 2022, 04:34 pm »
Mr. Big,
Of all the really big boys SONY is probably the brand I most respect.  I owned the XA-7, and XA-54 (I think these are correct model #'s) and I loved them. CD players both and sounded so warm, and detailed, and were absolutely reliable in all respects.  Sony's first SACD player, as you correctly note, IMO, was a work of art. Takes me back.... Yeah, as I've also noted, I'm through with 100 lb. amps as well. If there's a disconnect between our views re: Class D (but ONLY as it concerns GanFets NOT MOSFETS), it's that the gulf between tubes and GanFets re: midrange flesh, juice, soul, has, IMO, been reduced so convincingly as to allow GanFets to take the lead sonically (they're just quieter - and that's without considering their other enormous advantages in weight, cost, heat, materials consumption, etc.)  And, remember, I'm a TUBE GUY for over 35 years (300B, KT88, 6550, 2A3, 6C33, 845). I've still got 5 pairs of tube monoblocks.  But as I'm sitting here listening to Keith Jarrett, Radiance, the leading edge, decay, rich timbre, and tonal density of piano notes, all seemingly perfect (or, at least wholly satisfying) leave me wanting nothing in comparison to tubes. NOTHING. Symbols, jazz guitar, stand-up bass, everything sounds better to me with GanFets than with tubes. It's not a "different" thing as you suspect- it's a greater realism thing. A more alive thing. A far more satisfying thing.

Nice. I'll watch to see how many keep and sell these D amps after the newest wares off, I might have interest down the road, but if I have to go to a tube preamp for them to sound good, I'll pass. I love the care free use of SS gear, currently my Mark Levinson amps and its matching 326S preamp. By the way my friend brought XA7ES and it was also still going 20 years later with no issues.

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #229 on: 6 Oct 2022, 05:14 pm »
 :D remember the 'old world' where SIZE matters.   Haha. I really want to try this amp but how on earth can this little thing make sound like my old 100 pound A/B amp.?  Hard as hell to wrap your head around .. The power savings alone is big time. Not to mention a few other great benifits.  :D  I don't collect amps so I'm a little on the fence yet. Dam new and improved stuff !   :D

musicdre

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #230 on: 6 Oct 2022, 05:28 pm »
if I have to go to a tube preamp for them to sound good, I'll pass.

in my recent comparisons, a tube preamp [joule LA-100] added holographic soundstage thru class D [nord one] amplification (proving to me that class D amps are capable of holographic soundstaging).  the quite a few ss preamps that i tried were all over the place as far as dynamics, details, bass, lack of edge and harshness, etc.   the best one (to my ears, in my system) that i tried is the hegel p20.   it does not produce the soundstage of the joule, but is its equal in most of the other ways, and better in a few.   so, no, in my experience, one does not need to use a tube pre to get great sound on M3s with a class D amp, but one may use a tube pre to get great sound on M3s with a class D amp.

as indicated above, others' ears and systems are different so YRMV.  the bottom line is that good class D amps are highly revealing of the preamp upstream, and do make its choice critical.

RonN5

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #231 on: 6 Oct 2022, 05:51 pm »
So, the Orchard Audio is available as a finished amp...stereo or mono blocks....here is the link....   

https://orchardaudio.com/product/starkrismon_stereo_ultra_500w_stereo_amp/

It's been getting great reviews...here is one of them....   

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amplifier-review/

Leo has had the amp "on tour" at SHF and it is getting great reviews there as well

Back to the miniGan5...all good points about the low cost vs performance factor....one question for those that have it....does it thump when turning on or off or does it have some kind of a delay that attenuates the thump?

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #232 on: 6 Oct 2022, 07:13 pm »
Quote
one question for those that have it....does it thump when turning on or off or does it have some kind of a delay that attenuates the thump?

When I press the power button, two very tiny lights come on briefly on the front left and right and there is a very faint "tick" from the speakers. It's not even as loud as the relays switching when I change the volume on the Holo Serene preamp. Definitely not a thump, and seems well behaved to me.

morganc

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #233 on: 6 Oct 2022, 07:55 pm »
So, the Orchard Audio is available as a finished amp...stereo or mono blocks....here is the link....   

https://orchardaudio.com/product/starkrismon_stereo_ultra_500w_stereo_amp/

It's been getting great reviews...here is one of them....   

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amplifier-review/

Leo has had the amp "on tour" at SHF and it is getting great reviews there as well

Back to the miniGan5...all good points about the low cost vs performance factor....one question for those that have it....does it thump when turning on or off or does it have some kind of a delay that attenuates the thump?

I'm on this tour and excited to be able to have both amps in house at the same time.  Anyone in Arizona or nearby is welcome to drop in.  Or come to Sedona for a holiday and I'll provide an evening of music.  I also have my Reference Don Sachs amp to compare them to as well.

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #234 on: 6 Oct 2022, 08:02 pm »
 :D now that will be a good story. Comparo of good newer gear. Well done.  :D

Don_S

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #235 on: 6 Oct 2022, 08:25 pm »
I would be interested in hearing any GaN amplifier if someone has one near Sacramento, CA and they are willing to share.

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #236 on: 6 Oct 2022, 11:04 pm »
Ron5 - as I've noted, the MiniGans are dead silent for me on "turn on." Nothing. NewZoo reports a faint relay type sound in his system.  And, as previously noted, with ear to the tweeter - again, no hiss - nothing. Just glorious music emanating from the M3's.  Also, as previously noted, I auditioned BOTH the Orchard Audio Starkrimson monos and the MiniGan5's simultaneously.  My previous posts explain why I kept the MiniGans and returned the Starkrimsons.  No regrets.
 
BTW, I tried both amps on my Merlins upstairs.  Same results as with the M3's.  MiniGans preferred.

Finally, to Mr. Big, yes, I am using a tube pre-amp (actually a pre-amp with both tube and SS stages - the Freya+).  I've owned expensive amps as previously noted (BAT VK-51SE,. VK52SE, Audio Research SP11 and others).  This Freya is amazing (albeit with uber quality NOS n7's) and IMO the equal of my previous kit but quieter and so much easier to deal with. The Freya, in tube stage, makes listening to the MiniGans seem like an end-game system for me. It's only 11lbs., superbly engineered and beautifully understated. I guess I'm just over the big, heavy, gluttonous kit costing absurd sums and which all too often has no soul.  It only took me 30 years.... 

RonN5

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #237 on: 7 Oct 2022, 12:17 am »
 Catluck… just to clarify… were your amps from Leo the Starkcrimson Ultras?
« Last Edit: 7 Oct 2022, 02:23 am by RonN5 »

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #238 on: 7 Oct 2022, 04:49 am »
This Gallium Nitride class D amp thread has been a fun read for me.  I have never been so engaged with class D amps until now.  I owned PS Audio's S300 and M700 mono blocks, but did not try them with my X5s as I sold the M700s to pursue tubes and the S300 was used in my second system with the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC.  They use MOSFETs anyway, so the newer technology is much better from what I'm reading.

It's amazing how some are praising the MiniGan5 and how it is crushing their well respected brands.  This is probably frustrating to some because they've spent a lot of money on a major brand and find it difficult to understand how this inexpensive, lightweight product is able to perform at an astonishing level and cost pennies compared to most hi-end brands.  That may be why some have found a myriad of reasons to avoid the product without even hearing it, even after fellow forum members have praised it and they're using the same speaker manufacturer that we all own.  Stereophile may praise a component, but they're not using Spatial Audio in the review, yet we value their opinion.  If you can't audition a piece of gear, what do you do, you read reviews and forums.  In fact, you're reading this forum about the MiniGan5s, so that confirms you read reviews/forums to gather information about a hifi product.  Lol...  Most of us bought the Spatials without hearing them.  I think the good reviews on this MiniGan5 forum is real and just as trustworthy as a magazine published review.  I'm ok with an inexpensive product embarrassing my Luxman.  I could sell it, buy the inexpensive piece and put money in the bank!  Many good questions and concerns have been mentioned about the company, but Don Sachs is a one man show and I haven't heard anyone having heartburns about him retiring or unable to provide support due to an emergency situation.  I'm sure some would question our Spatial Audio purchase because Spatial Audio is a small company.  I was concerned about Spatial Audio being a new and small company, but after communicating with Clayton several times, I took a chance and pulled the trigger and I don't regret it because Clayton stands behind his product.   

Concerning the fear of loss in a resale scenario of the MiniGan5s, I have another perspective.  I bought a brand new Luxman L-509x integrated in 2021 for $10k.  The Luxman L-509x are going for around $6.5k used, so when I do the math, I could potentially lose $3.5K in a resale vs. my fellow forum members, literally, giving away their MiniGan5s for free and only losing the $1,500 bucks that they paid for it.  I think the MiniGan5 owners are in better shape than me. :duh:  If you bought your expensive gear used, you might be in better shape than me, but you still may end up losing more money than the MiniGan5 owners because their product is very inexpensive and doesn't have the potential for a big loss!

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #239 on: 7 Oct 2022, 06:16 am »
DBT - words'o'wisdom. precise and on-point. I too have pricey gear and it will, most likely, be gathering dust for the time being.  Actually, I've been thinking about vendors who don't sell GanFet amps and how they will be affected, profit wise, as GanFets begin to take market share - and they will take market share.  Their incentive is to denigrate GanFets because, as inexpensive as the products are, relative to big class A - A/B products, the profit margins collapse unless, of course, they build new markets and make up for small margins with volume. In example, my 30 year old daughter, who grew up with tubes and big class A kit, and loves music/audio, found them to be mostly objectionable.  Too big, heavy, AC consumptive, essentially boys' toys.  But she was here visiting recently and fell in love with the MiniGans - a product she not only would own but now has on her "to get" list.  Conversion.  GanFets may be the key to vivifying a previously dormant market for audiophile quality gear among her peer group.  She can afford it, carry it, and revel in the sound quality. Interesting times.