Audio Myths Thread

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bacobits1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #40 on: 24 May 2019, 06:56 pm »
I kinda like being fooled.  :popcorn:

Its' Magic
« Last Edit: 25 May 2019, 01:10 pm by bacobits1 »

Wind Chaser

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #41 on: 24 May 2019, 07:02 pm »
Each of our realities is only a figment of our imagination too.

Here’s Tom with the weather.  :lol:

Wind Chaser

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #42 on: 24 May 2019, 07:36 pm »
This is the reason we developed and always use our ABX Comparator.  It allows us to do double blind level matched comparisons of almost any aspect of audio performance in a mode that eliminates anticipation bias.

So how often does the ABX Comparator send you back to the drawing board because a potentially new circuit doesn’t sound any better than the one in a current model? 

If I understand this right, you can pretty much hear the difference between two circuits at the flip of a switch, sort like looking at two pictures of the same thing side by side, but one has more resolution, better focus, color rendition etc?

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #43 on: 24 May 2019, 09:21 pm »
Again, Benchmark misses three of the important aspects of balanced here.

Certainly, it is better to have common-mode noise rejection.  My own DAC is much better using balanced versus SE.  However, the devil is in the details.  Most modern balanced outputs are solid-state, not driven from a transformer like in the past and in recording studios.  This causes balanced to not really be balanced because the two outputs are never actually the same amplitude.  It's impossible. 

Secondly, because there is no transformer, there is no galvanic isolation between preamp and power amp.  This is one of the reasons that I sell my Final Drive transformer isolator. Makes systems sound better. Makes it truly balanced again.

Finally, older balanced systems were typically 600 ohms terminated so the impedance of the cable was not as important.  Modern balanced inputs are 50Kohms or higher, so this changes everything.  Balanced cables, like RCA cables must have low capacitance to sound good now.  Dielectric absorption is audible too.

Three of the advantages of balanced have been eliminated, leaving only the CM noise rejection, which has limits.

Steve N.



I think they adequately explained the benefits of balanced vs. unbalanced rather well. The noise floor of the DAC3 and AHB as a combo is better than the vast majority of gear available. 


The one set of gear that exceeds the Benchmark set is Devialet. Check out the specs of the Devialet Expert 220 Pro:

Distortion at Full Power: 0,0005% THD+N
Signal-to-noise ratio: 130dB
The idea of inserting the DAC into the amp solves a lot of problems with cables, noise, etc.  For digital only playback, only need digital input cables, which balanced cables are not required.


 
« Last Edit: 25 May 2019, 12:29 am by Freo-1 »

audioengr

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #44 on: 25 May 2019, 02:11 am »

I think they adequately explained the benefits of balanced vs. unbalanced rather well. The noise floor of the DAC3 and AHB as a combo is better than the vast majority of gear available. 


The one set of gear that exceeds the Benchmark set is Devialet. Check out the specs of the Devialet Expert 220 Pro:

Distortion at Full Power: 0,0005% THD+N
Signal-to-noise ratio: 130dB
The idea of inserting the DAC into the amp solves a lot of problems with cables, noise, etc.  For digital only playback, only need digital input cables, which balanced cables are not required.

If all you care about is specs and measurements, you will be missing out on a lot of great audio quality IME.

Steve N.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #45 on: 25 May 2019, 01:01 pm »
If all you care about is specs and measurements, you will be missing out on a lot of great audio quality IME.

Steve N.



Specs and measurements are vital to getting superior sound.  It's not possible for a audio piece to sound good if it does not measure well. 


In the case at hand, the two brands mentioned (Benchmark and Devialet) are two of the absolute best regarding measurements and specs.  Not surprisingly, both are pretty much universally praised for superior performance by the audio community.  Both ALSO employ switching power supplies.  Hence, the myth regarding power supplies is proven by specs and measurements to be jut that, a myth.


I have some appreciation for the point you are making, based on my past experience with tube DIY audio.  For example, Mundorf coupling caps are very special, and have always been my "go to" cap for that wonderful tube sound.  Non-inductive resistors also make a sonic difference, but there is some science behind why they work so well. 

audioengr

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #46 on: 25 May 2019, 04:51 pm »

Specs and measurements are vital to getting superior sound.  It's not possible for a audio piece to sound good if it does not measure well. 


In the case at hand, the two brands mentioned (Benchmark and Devialet) are two of the absolute best regarding measurements and specs.  Not surprisingly, both are pretty much universally praised for superior performance by the audio community.

Universally is a stretch.  Lots of DACs that beat the Benchmark IME.

Steve N.

WGH

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #47 on: 25 May 2019, 07:25 pm »

In the case at hand, the two brands mentioned (Benchmark and Devialet) are two of the absolute best regarding measurements and specs.  Not surprisingly, both are pretty much universally praised for superior performance by the audio community.

Not in my universe. The Benchmark may have superior measurements but the sound is sterile with no magic, which can't be measured but you know it when you hear it. (to paraphrase United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart)
A system with magic is what we all strive for, trying out, buying and selling equipment in search of that elusive goal, some find it and some never do.

Audio Myth #1: A system that has excellent measurements sounds excellent.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #48 on: 25 May 2019, 07:45 pm »
Universally is a stretch.  Lots of DACs that beat the Benchmark IME.

Steve N.



Not based on specs, measurements, and the various reviews, all of which are very positive.  This especially true at the price point of the DAC.


While I appreciate your expertise and background, this starts to get into subjective vs. objective evaluations.  At that point, one gets into room acoustics with speaker interaction, recording quality, etc.   

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #49 on: 25 May 2019, 08:01 pm »
Not in my universe. The Benchmark may have superior measurements but the sound is sterile with no magic, which can't be measured but you know it when you hear it. (to paraphrase United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart)
A system with magic is what we all strive for, trying out, buying and selling equipment in search of that elusive goal, some find it and some never do.

Audio Myth #1: A system that has excellent measurements sounds excellent.




Actually, that is a fact, not a myth.  Any system that does not measure well will not sound good.  That is reality.  If the system doesn't sound good, then one or more aspects are not going to measure well. 


IF you are referring to the DAC-1, I would somewhat agree.  The DAC-3/AHB combo is a very different beast.

The issue here is that everyone has their own preferences, and those play into what is considered good sound.  For example, someone who likes euphonic presentations will be happier with a tube setup over solid state.   A highly accurate system will expose poor recordings for what they are, where as a more euphonic system could mask some of the shortfalls.  That very well could relate to a lack of magic some folks refer to.  Live music is often anything but magic.


Occasionally, I'll use a tube setup with some recordings where the tubes smooth out the rough edges of the recordings.  However, with  recent hi-res symphonic recordings,  only the state of the art hi res playback system will do it justice. 
« Last Edit: 26 May 2019, 01:52 am by Freo-1 »

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #50 on: 25 May 2019, 08:29 pm »

OK, now that we have discussed power supplies (switched mode vs linear), and touched on cables (XLR vs. RCA), onto the next set of myths:  Vinyl Vs Digital  (Stand By For Heavy Rolls   :popcorn: )


Please, let's keep it civil.  There is room for everyone here.




https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=1&doc_id=1283408#


http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)

Triode Pete

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Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #51 on: 25 May 2019, 09:14 pm »
Not in my universe. The Benchmark may have superior measurements but the sound is sterile with no magic, which can't be measured but you know it when you hear it. (to paraphrase United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart)
A system with magic is what we all strive for, trying out, buying and selling equipment in search of that elusive goal, some find it and some never do.

Audio Myth #1: A system that has excellent measurements sounds excellent.

Agreed!

"If it measures good and sounds bad—it’s bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you’ve measured the wrong thing."
Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, Chief Engineer, H.H. Scott.

Elizabeth

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Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #52 on: 25 May 2019, 09:22 pm »
onto the next set of myths:  Vinyl Vs Digital 


I feel the need to include other forms of storage too!
Wax Cylinders, 78's 45's reel to reel, Mono 33 1/3 Stereo 33 1/3, Elcassette, SuperBeta, S-VHS, laser disc, Cassette, 8 track Minidisks, CDs, DVD-A, MP3, downloads, streaming, higher definition downloads, plus in car.... Then comparing live.. where? Concert hall, jazz club, stadium, auditorium, bar, dinner club, living room, kitchen, bedroom, garage.

audioengr

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #53 on: 25 May 2019, 09:49 pm »

Not based on specs, measurements, and the various reviews, all of which are very positive.  This especially true at the price point of the DAC.


While I appreciate your expertise and background, this starts to get into subjective vs. objective evaluations.  At that point, one gets into room acoustics with speaker interaction, recording quality, etc.

I modded Benchmark DAC1 for almost 10 years.  I reverse-engineered it.  I know a lot about their designs.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #54 on: 25 May 2019, 09:53 pm »
Agreed!

"If it measures good and sounds bad—it’s bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you’ve measured the wrong thing."
Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, Chief Engineer, H.H. Scott.


Do not think this is still entirely valid.  We know a lot more about what to measure and how to measure compared to the golden age of audio.  There has been major progress made with all aspects over the years.


The Benchmark DAC3/AHB combination is among the best available hardware to listen to music with.  If someone doesn't like the sound, from the combo, OK, fine.  It does not make it bad across the board, only to that individual.  Based on reviews and current specs, that view is not held by the vast majority of the audio community. 


 

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #55 on: 25 May 2019, 09:54 pm »
I modded Benchmark DAC1 for almost 10 years.  I reverse-engineered it.  I know a lot about their designs.


Fair enough.  I am referring to the DAC3/AHB combination.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #56 on: 26 May 2019, 12:40 pm »
I feel the need to include other forms of storage too!
Wax Cylinders, 78's 45's reel to reel, Mono 33 1/3 Stereo 33 1/3, Elcassette, SuperBeta, S-VHS, laser disc, Cassette, 8 track Minidisks, CDs, DVD-A, MP3, downloads, streaming, higher definition downloads, plus in car.... Then comparing live.. where? Concert hall, jazz club, stadium, auditorium, bar, dinner club, living room, kitchen, bedroom, garage.



Let's just stick with vinyl for now.  :)




Myth: Vinyl is better than digital because the analog signal on the vinyl tracks the analog signal exactly, while digital is quantized into steps

Frequency Resolution:
Simply not true.  It took awhile to fully understand this, but the reality is, digital playback is constructed from specific points, and the waveform is smoothed out to create the sine wave. 

Jitter:
With modern equipment, jitter has been reduced to a minuscule amount.  The amount of error from a turntable wow and flutter is much more likely to create audible effects


Dynamic Range
Another significant impact of finite quantizing resolution is finite dynamic range. As implemented, the bit depth of CD and DVD digital audio formats accommodates a higher dynamic range than vinyl is capable of. The only signal that can exist 'between the bits' of a CD is drowned out by random noise from the vinyl surface grain.

 

ctviggen

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Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #57 on: 26 May 2019, 05:14 pm »

Let's just stick with vinyl for now.  :)

Frequency Resolution:
Simply not true.  It took awhile to fully understand this, but the reality is, digital playback is constructed from specific points, and the waveform is smoothed out to create the sine wave. 


That's the theory. If you sample at at least twice the highest frequency, you theoretically can recreate the original waveform.  That's why they use 44.1 kHz, sampling twice 22 kHz.

Is the waveform actually exactly the same as the original?  Therein lies the controversy.

Elizabeth

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Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #58 on: 26 May 2019, 06:04 pm »
That's the theory. If you sample at at least twice the highest frequency, you theoretically can recreate the original waveform.  That's why they use 44.1 kHz, sampling twice 22 kHz.

Is the waveform actually exactly the same as the original?  Therein lies the controversy.

In my experience, the problems come from artifacts created by the processing, and riding on the AC.. Plus jitter adds to the mess.
Fully HALF of he problems are connected to the power supply.. IMO at least.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #59 on: 26 May 2019, 06:23 pm »
In my experience, the problems come from artifacts created by the processing, and riding on the AC.. Plus jitter adds to the mess.
Fully HALF of he problems are connected to the power supply.. IMO at least.



I think these were issues with older digital systems.   I think with more recent equipment offerings, those concerns are a largely a thing of the past.