M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions

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TapestryUntied

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M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« on: 25 Jun 2022, 04:06 am »
I placed an order for a pair of M3 Sapphires on Monday and now I've got some decisions to make with regards to amplification and my room.
Amps I own are a Primaluna Dialogue Premium, currently running KT88s but also have a set of EL34s and a Schiit Aegir (just one). I'm using the PL in my system at the moment. It'll be interesting to see which I end up liking better.

Regarding the room, it measures 14' x 25' with the speakers on the short wall. The kitchen is at the back of the room behind the listening position on the couch. I've got room to position the speakers out from the front wall up to about 4', depending on where they sound best. The left side wall is sliding glass doors with cellular shades plus blackout curtains. The right wall has a shelving unit with hundreds of records and (a few) books. My gear is between the speakers about 15 inches high and will be 2-3' behind baffles of the new speakers. I have no TV so that wall space has 4" deep absorption panels I built as well as diffusion.

Thoughts on diffusion vs. absorption on the front wall immediately behind the new M3S? Thanks 

TapestryUntied

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #1 on: 25 Jun 2022, 04:26 am »
I guess I should've previewed that before I hastily hit post. The front wall between the speakers has 4' x 4' of 4" deep GIK Impression panels , so that's absorption with a little diffusion. I built triangular floor to ceiling bass traps in both front wall/side wall corners. Directly behind the speakers are windows, also with cellular shades and blackout curtains. Those windows don't have trim and are recessed 5.5" deep in the wall so I can put treatment in front of the window. Thought I'd clarify if that influences suggestions for either absorption or diffusion behind the speakers.

ljiminez

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jun 2022, 11:10 pm »
I will also be interested in your observations of Aegir vs Primaluna.

TrapJaw

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jun 2022, 02:06 pm »
Good question.  I ordered the M3S about the exact same time.  I have a similar room in a new house being built.  Other than the room, I have a blank slate to work with.  With open baffle speakers, i wonder how the room treatments may differ generically from an enclosed box speaker.  Dennis Foley of Acoustic Fields just posted a video  on the very limited impact of corner bass traps: https://youtu.be/QwgrJVLniLc.  FYI, he offers free room plans on his website.

Tyson

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jun 2022, 03:12 pm »
IME, absorption on the side walls and diffusion on the front wall is the best combo in a lot of rooms.  And pull the speakers as far out in the room as possible.  4 feet is good, 5 or 6 feet is even better. 

TrapJaw

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #5 on: 28 Jun 2022, 06:27 pm »
Yes, absorption on the side walls and diffusion on the front wall behind the speakers is the traditional general approach.  But I am wondering if the dipole woofers would benefit from front wall bass absorption and less side wall bass absorption due to the figure 8 radiation pattern?  I believe the M100 drivers are mono-pole and therefore would benefit from the traditional approach.  Clayton told me that the M100 has a wide dispersion pattern.  Does this make side wall absorption is more important?  It is my understanding that bass absorption and mid/high freq absorption are performed with different devices or techniques.  Of course all of this is a generalization without the information provide by analyzing the room.  Thoughts?

Tyson

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #6 on: 28 Jun 2022, 07:35 pm »
Bass is a lot different than mids/highs.  The figure 8 bass pattern really just means that it excites less room modes and so you'll have fewer peaks and valleys in the bass response.  That has nothing at all to do with side wall absorption, because the side wall panels are way too thin to absorb any bass. 

I'd recommend treating the side and front wall for best performance in the mids/highs and not worry about the bass right away.  Because, the OB bass is going to be a lot cleaner, faster and less obnoxious than a box speaker.  So you may just decide that the M3 sounds great without any bass traps at all.

Live with it like this for a few months and then you're in a much better position to decide if you need any bass traps. 

TapestryUntied

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #7 on: 29 Jun 2022, 01:28 am »

Live with it like this for a few months and then you're in a much better position to decide if you need any bass traps.

I suppose that will be my plan. Once they break in, I can move treatments around, listen with the corner bass traps in place/removed, etc.

catluck

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #8 on: 29 Jun 2022, 01:59 pm »
Damn that Tyson. Always seems to know what he's talking about. I totally agree with the Tyson-meister.  It seems with my M3's that once you obtain a certain distance from the front-wall and side walls, treatments seem to matter less and less. In my case, the speaks are about 51" from the front wall and 39" from the side walls.  As I've written previously, I have that hideous flat screen between the speaks at 40"-65" high. I know..... Anyway, I think Tyson's advice is sound - settle in for a bit and listen to how the system presents.  You may find, like me, that treatment is, well, not sufficiently impactful to justify the expense/effort.  Enjoy.

Mr. Big

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #9 on: 29 Jun 2022, 02:18 pm »
Yes, absorption on the side walls and diffusion on the front wall behind the speakers is the traditional general approach.  But I am wondering if the dipole woofers would benefit from front wall bass absorption and less side wall bass absorption due to the figure 8 radiation pattern?  I believe the M100 drivers are mono-pole and therefore would benefit from the traditional approach.  Clayton told me that the M100 has a wide dispersion pattern.  Does this make side wall absorption is more important?  It is my understanding that bass absorption and mid/high freq absorption are performed with different devices or techniques.  Of course, all of this is a generalization without the information provide by analyzing the room.  Thoughts?

Clayton does recommend bass traps which I was using along with other panels due to having Quad Electrostatic speakers which emit as much sound from the back as the front of the speaker. So both my corners are well-damped, and just moving any one item from the corners really changes the sound and not in a good way in comparison.



 

Tangram

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Re: M3 Ordered, Now Need to Make Some Decisions
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jun 2022, 12:41 am »
OP, I took my front wall absorption off and replaced it with six Vicoustics DC-2 diffusion panels. Speakers are 4’ off the front wall and five off the side. Side wall absorption and some ceiling clouds along with a big bass trap round things out.

I used to fiddle with treatments all the time but with this setup, I don’t give it any more thought which tells me things are working.