[jnschneyer]

Hi.  First time on AC.  It feels a little odd addressing an unseen audience, but, as it's part of the price of admission, I'll do my best.  My interest in audio extends well beyond Spatial Audio, but it is my particular interest at the moment.  I came across AC via Spatial Audio's website in my general hunt for information regarding their speakers and am hoping people here with knowledge of the Spatials will be able to help guide me.  To be more specific, I'm on the fence between the X4s and X5s.  I listened to a pair of X4s driven by various ss and tube amps at Spatial Audio's shop and was tremendously impressed and moved by a pair of X4 with about 200 hours on them, driven by a Don Sachs Valhalla integrated amp.  I went back again for a listen to the X5s, but they had so few hours on them that it really was not a session to do them justice.  I loved the X4s but am really interested in the higher sensitivity and powered sub of the X5s.  If anyone has impressions of these speakers, both individually and in comparison to each other, they'd care to relate, I'd be grateful to hear them.  Thanks.  I hope this qualifies as a proper introduction.

[zybar]

Welcome to AC!

In general this is a great group of people who share a passion for audio, video, and some other hobbies.

Compared to some other forums/boards, I think this one leans towards being more friendly and helpful.

As for this specific Circle...lots of owners here with a real good understanding on the past and current Spatial offerings and also other products out in the market.

George

[jnschneyer]

Hi, George,

Many thanks for the reply.  I'm guessing what I should do at this point is begin a thread on the specific topic on which I'm interested, but I'm loathe to create one that may have already been well-covered.  It seems I can't search for posts relevant to my interest to ensure I don't tread on well-trod ground until I've made a certain number (3, I think) of approved posts.  I don't know if our exchanges count as approved posts.  If so, then I guess I'm one step closer.  Thanks again for the welcome. 

Josh   

[Daryl Zero]

Yes, welcome in. The Spatial Audio Lab has a comparison place on its website here (you'll need to click on the premium series to get there):

https://www.spatialaudiolab.com/models

The HF driver is the same in both. The MF driver is a bit different but the big difference is the LF driver which is passive in the X4s as opposed to active in the X5s.

I'm guessing that the sound is going to be fairly similar other than you have to use more powerful gear to drive the X4s and that will determine how the LF and maybe the low MF should compare. The site does say that the low range of the X5s is 25 Hz whereas 32 Hz for the X4s.

I'm driving my X5s with a fairly low powered SET integrated tube amp and I haven't yet turned the volume knob past about 10 o'clock and I love the speakers. I haven't heard the X4s.

I haven't heard the X5s with the Valhalla amp and a few posters have and say it magical so I'd guess you'd need to hear the X5s with that amp (after proper break in) to really compare to how the X4s sounded with the Vahalla amp.

[jnschneyer]

Hi, Daryl,

Thanks very much for the reply.  Thanks also for the comparison link.  I think I've consumed pretty much all the written and YT video info out there on the Spatials.  I first came across them on New Record Day's YT channel and they intrigued me so much I began the typical online info deep dive.  It turned out I live about 10 minutes from Spatial Audio Lab, so I contacted Clayton who put me in touch with a young man named Cloud who has been incredibly generous with his time in allowing me to demo the M3s, X4s, and X5s.  I've had the itch to revise my system for some time now (from stand-mounts to full range, and ss to tubes), but, as my system is quite good (for me) and my itch somewhat arbitrary, I've yet to find the combination to make me feel unequivocally it's the right move to make.  That is, until I heard the X4s with the Valhalla.  Hearing those together, even in a far from perfect room, was revelatory, and, for the first time, I thought "that's it."  Of course, having thought "that's it," I immediately felt I had to hear the X5s, in case they were even more "it" than the X4s (Socrates was right - choices are a blessing and a curse).  So I went back and had a listen to the X5s, but they had only 10 hours on them, and, while the bass had crazy extension, it overloaded the room a bit (I also think I simply had it turned up too high) and it really wasn't coherent with the mids and highs, which seemed to be riding on top of the bass rather than being seamlessly joined with it, if that makes any sense.  I'm quite sure they were not ready to be listened to, and Cloud had warned me of that.  As you own a pair of the X5s, if you have the time and inclination, I would love to know how you feel the sound has progressed or changed over time, what size room you have them in, what kind of music you listen to or feel they do best with (jazz and classical primarily for me, though also a generous smattering of other genres as well), how you like and make use of the adjustable volume on the powered bass driver, how well you feel the powered bass coheres with the mid and high, etc.  I realize this is a tremendous imposition and understand perfectly if you're not inclined to take up valuable life-time satisfying my curiosity.  I have an unfortunate narrative impulse (as you can see) and tend to tell stories where I could just ask simple questions, but I'm aware not everyone shares this tendency.  Anything you feel you have the time to tell me would be very much appreciated.  Thanks again for the welcome.

[geerock]

I've owned the X5's for a couple years now and drive them with a Don Sachs all in preamp and an LTA Reference 40+.  Stunning combination. I havent heard the x4's but I have to guess they are very similar.  The 5's are a bit easier to drive at 97 sensitivity and 8 ohms but neither is going to give you any problems in that area.  The DSP controlled self powered bass driver is a nice feature but, again, not sure it's all that large a difference.  As for looking for an entire set up?  The x's with a Don Sachs Valhalla by all accounts is a killer combo.  Don himself has the X5's and he sent Clayton a Valhalla and he loved it too.  I've had a lot, and I mean a LOT of combos in my music rooms over the years and Im presently listening to the finest system I've ever had.  Just go for it.  You can drive yourself crazy in this hobby going from equipment to equipment.  And you can spend a hell of a lot more money.  But just spring for some x's with that world class AMT driver, and add the Valhalla and you'll be one happy guy.  You wont he analyzing music.  You'll be experiencing music.
All the best.

[jnschneyer]

Hi, geerock,

Many thanks for the input.  You are absolutely right about the round and round, rabbit hole, drive you crazy, merry-go-round, call it what you will lure of hifi and its multitudinous possibilities.  I've been wanting to switch out my current system for something else (stand-mount for full-range, separates for integrated, ss for tubes) for a while now but have found nothing to make me jump unfalteringly off that precipice.  Until now.  The X4s with the Vahalla are the first to make me think yes! I would do that today!  As you said, suddenly I wasn't listening to gear; I was listening to music, and gloriously, at that.  Of course, as, when it comes to this gear, there is no immediate gratification, which is probably just as well, I've had more time to read and listen and ruminate.  So, much as I loved the X4s, the X5s' high sensitivity and active bass really intrigued me.  As you love your X5s, I'm curious what sized room you're in, what you're listening to, and if you make much use of the powered bass's volume control, or did you find a level you liked and leave it?  The X4 I listened to at Spatial Audio's shop was a lot further along to broken in (200 hours) than was the X5 (10 hours, I think), so I haven't had a chance to hear the X5 at anywhere near their best.  Any impressions you feel you have the time or inclination to relate would be very appreciated.  I know, in the end, it's my ears, my room, my music that will make the final determination, but, in the absence of X5s to give a fair audition, others' more experienced impressions can help.  Granted, they can also create confusion, but then it's my job to separate the wheat from the chaff as best I can.  In any case, many thanks for taking the time to reply. 

Josh

[Mr. Big]

Hi, geerock,

Many thanks for the input.  You are absolutely right about the round and round, rabbit hole, drive you crazy, merry-go-round, call it what you will lure of hifi and its multitudinous possibilities.  I've been wanting to switch out my current system for something else (stand-mount for full-range, separates for integrated, ss for tubes) for a while now but have found nothing to make me jump unfalteringly off that precipice.  Until now.  The X4s with the Vahalla are the first to make me think yes! I would do that today!  As you said, suddenly I wasn't listening to gear; I was listening to music, and gloriously, at that.  Of course, as, when it comes to this gear, there is no immediate gratification, which is probably just as well, I've had more time to read and listen and ruminate.  So, much as I loved the X4s, the X5s' high sensitivity and active bass really intrigued me.  As you love your X5s, I'm curious what sized room you're in, what you're listening to, and if you make much use of the powered bass's volume control, or did you find a level you liked and leave it?  The X4 I listened to at Spatial Audio's shop was a lot further along to broken in (200 hours) than was the X5 (10 hours, I think), so I haven't had a chance to hear the X5 at anywhere near their best.  Any impressions you feel you have the time or inclination to relate would be very appreciated.  I know, in the end, it's my ears, my room, my music that will make the final determination, but, in the absence of X5s to give a fair audition, others' more experienced impressions can help.  Granted, they can also create confusion, but then it's my job to separate the wheat from the chaff as best I can.  In any case, many thanks for taking the time to reply. 

Josh

If you heard a pair at Clayton's with 200 hours on them and really liked them, then you heard how all of Spatial get better and better with use, if later you heard a pair of speakers with less playing time on them and felt they did not sound as good, well, that is how it should be. So you already know how good they can sound, now it is just picking the model that will work best with your room and Clayton's team and help you make the best decision. Really you cannot go wrong just pick the speaker that will work best in the size of your room.

[bbybaudio]

Hello jnschneyer and welcome. Glad you were able to hear the X4s, M3s and a not broken in pair of X5s. I have X5s that I rave about constantly. Was running them with a PL Dialogue HP Premium Integrated produced in late 2017 after the cap upgrade was implemented. Have upgraded tubes throughout and I thought it could not get any better. I spoke with Clayton about the Valhalla and as you know, he loves it. So I ordered one from Don and after a very long wait, got mine recently. Unit probably needs another 4-5 days of playing to approach all of what it can do. So while I cannot comment on X4 vs X5 I can tell you that the Valhalla is in a different league from the highly rated PL. One, it is dead quiet. I thought the PL was quiet but now I know what dead quiet is. There is just more "grunt," finesses, three dimensionality and again, I am hearing music that was not revealed prior to inserting the Valhalla. Most everything sounds fuller, more fleshed out, more lifelike. Like many of you, my wife views this as my strange hobby and puts up with it, occasionally coming up in the evening to say "that sounds nice." Well this changed after inserting the Valhalla. Now she comes in, sits in the sweet spot and grabs the ipad. She selects the music and we both listen for long periods just enjoying the music, whatever genre. Bottom line, imho you will not go wrong with either the X4 or X5. Put them together with the Valhalla and wow!

[jnschneyer]

Hi, bbyaudio,

Thanks so much for the input.  It's very helpful to hear from X4 and X5 owners.  If you wouldn't mind, when you have a moment, would you tell me what size room you have your X5s in and whether you make much use of the volume control on the powered bass driver.  Not being able to hear them in my room, I'm interested in knowing if the adjustable volume makes a difference both in room response and in how well the bass integrates with the other drivers.  Eventually, I'll have to pay my money and take my chance, but, until then, I'm hoping to gather as much detailed information as I can.  Again, thanks for reply.  It's very much appreciated.

Josh

[geerock]

Josh
My room is about 16 x 21 with a 7 1/2 foot ceiling.  Finished basement with thin carpet and a little room treatment.  Speakers face the long wall and I have good value cabling and power conditioning.  I have a very fast small sealed sub from Martin Logan that I needed with Maggie 1.7's.  I add just a touch depending on what type of music I'm listening to.  I like smooth jazz and some classical.  Some old rock.  Virtuoso guitarists.  Horns and piano are more realistic on the X5's than anything I've heard.  Diana Krall, Norah Jones and the like are like sitting in the lounge with them.  As you know, the difference from breakin is very real on these speakers.  I wanted to send them back but was convinced to keep waiting and one day they really bloomed.  And they continued to open up every so often to become the speaker they are now.  I listen via streaming Tidal Masters / Roon through a Small Green Computer dedicated server to a modified Musical Paradise tube DAC.  Everything is dead quiet.  Just about every night you'll find this ol' timer in the music room.  Sometimes with a couple fingers of good scotch or bourbon.  And the queen will usually join me and she'll take over the tablet and we'll both just let us be surrounded in 3D music.  Soundstage, depth, realism, ....its all there.

[jnschneyer]

Hi, geerock,

I can't thank you enough for your impressions and insight.  Hearing the experiences of those who've lived with a given speaker, amp, etc is very helpful, even accounting for the dreaded confirmation bias.  Call me naive, but I do believe intelligent people are able to peer over the wall of their own need for self-justification.  So, again, thanks.  I've always been skeptical (not disbelieving, just skeptical) of break-in, be it of speakers or electronic components.  The arguments I've read for it seem sensible and even logical, for whatever logic is worth in relation to truth, and some of the arguments I've read against it seem sensible, while many seem strangely inimical.  As usually happens, in my own case, anecdotal experience triumphed over argument, as my current speakers (Dynaudio Heritage Specials), which were very good literally out of the box, have in the last 4 months become noticeably, in fact considerably, better.  I suppose I could be accused of confirmation bias or of just getting used to the speakers, but, as the speakers sounded lovely to begin with and, as I was skeptical of break-in and not looking for any improvement, I'm pretty sure the sound has actually improved.  Add that to the very different sound I heard from the X4s at 200 hours and the X5s at 10 hours (which are still similar enough speakers that the disparity in sound should not have been so great based merely on design), and I think I'm becoming (though the skeptic in me resists blindly believing anything) a believer in break-in.  It does make investing in speakers that might not sound great initially, well, disconcerting.  As you say, you were tempted to return them.  This is why I'm lobbying for information from people like you, to get a more complete picture, both general and specific, of what I can anticipate.  Happy listening, and my apologies; you didn't ask for a disquisition on my break-in conversion.  Once I get to thinking about something, the words will out.  I really have to put a stopper in it.  Once again, many thanks.

Josh 

[bbybaudio]

My room is 15.5 x 22.5 with 9 ft ceilings. system is on the long wall with speakers about 40" from wall and 9.5ft apart. I sit about 10.5 ft back. Have 2ft x 4ft diffusers directly behind mid and AMT drivers with bass traps behind subwoofers. I have two 2ft x 4ft diffusers behind listening position. I listen using an MP D2 MkIII DAC with all options and way upgraded tubes. I have a 2TB HD with itunes library fed into a macbook pro. itunes is overridden using PureMusic and signal to DAC via usb. I also have a transport connected to DAC via XLR digital cable. . For vinyl I have a VPI Prime feeding into a Manley Chinook with way upgraded tubes.

[jnschneyer]

Hi, bbyaudio,

Thanks yet again for taking the time to reply.  Everyone who's answered the call has been exceedingly generous with their time and information.  It is exactly what I was looking for in signing up.  I hope at some point I can help someone with answers or at least information and experience of my own.  Take care.

Josh

[bbybaudio]

As per the subwoofer, changing the amplifier output does alter bass output. Mine is at about 9 o'clock on the dial, sometimes 10. On a few recordings there is too much bass for me and I dial it back a bit. The bass control does go quite a bit further than shown on my Hypex Amps. I do not know, but Clayton may have set the amps up to only operate within a specific power range.

[Daryl Zero]

Hi, Daryl,

Thanks very much for the reply.  Thanks also for the comparison link.  I think I've consumed pretty much all the written and YT video info out there on the Spatials.  I first came across them on New Record Day's YT channel and they intrigued me so much I began the typical online info deep dive.  It turned out I live about 10 minutes from Spatial Audio Lab, so I contacted Clayton who put me in touch with a young man named Cloud who has been incredibly generous with his time in allowing me to demo the M3s, X4s, and X5s.  I've had the itch to revise my system for some time now (from stand-mounts to full range, and ss to tubes), but, as my system is quite good (for me) and my itch somewhat arbitrary, I've yet to find the combination to make me feel unequivocally it's the right move to make.  That is, until I heard the X4s with the Valhalla.  Hearing those together, even in a far from perfect room, was revelatory, and, for the first time, I thought "that's it."  Of course, having thought "that's it," I immediately felt I had to hear the X5s, in case they were even more "it" than the X4s (Socrates was right - choices are a blessing and a curse).  So I went back and had a listen to the X5s, but they had only 10 hours on them, and, while the bass had crazy extension, it overloaded the room a bit (I also think I simply had it turned up too high) and it really wasn't coherent with the mids and highs, which seemed to be riding on top of the bass rather than being seamlessly joined with it, if that makes any sense.  I'm quite sure they were not ready to be listened to, and Cloud had warned me of that.  As you own a pair of the X5s, if you have the time and inclination, I would love to know how you feel the sound has progressed or changed over time, what size room you have them in, what kind of music you listen to or feel they do best with (jazz and classical primarily for me, though also a generous smattering of other genres as well), how you like and make use of the adjustable volume on the powered bass driver, how well you feel the powered bass coheres with the mid and high, etc.  I realize this is a tremendous imposition and understand perfectly if you're not inclined to take up valuable life-time satisfying my curiosity.  I have an unfortunate narrative impulse (as you can see) and tend to tell stories where I could just ask simple questions, but I'm aware not everyone shares this tendency.  Anything you feel you have the time to tell me would be very much appreciated.  Thanks again for the welcome.

I bought mine used and already burned in so I can't help you with the change process. If you search this forum, however, there are several threads with new owners describing the changes over time including the X5s and X3s.

X3s

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=165221.0

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=176441.0

X5s

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177011.0

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=178501.0

Here's a customer X5 review:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=173938.0

Don Sachs also has the X5s and reviewed them on his site linked here:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177116.0


Hope this helps. Probably can't go wrong either way.
Frankly, if you are satisfied with the Valhalla and the X4s, that's great.
The curse of this hobby is always thinking you're missing something and trying to get more.
Sometimes it's great just to listen and love the music.

[jnschneyer]

Hi, Daryl,

Thanks again, and thanks for the links.  Now that I have the requisite number of posts, I'm able to search the site.  Of course, you're absolutely right about the almost neurotic fear that there's some small special something that could be wrung out of that one part of your system that will make the listening that much more rewarding.  Honestly, there's nothing "wrong" with my system now.  It has its virtues and shortcomings, as will, outside of the most uncompromised in a well-treated dedicated room, any system.  But I've got the bug, and open baffle and tubes are both places I've not been, so, a trepidatious voyage into the unknown it is.  It's exciting and nerve wracking, though I don't want to make too much of an aria about the stress of it; there are a lot more truly stressful circumstances in life than having to choose among multi-thousand-dollar hifi components.  Not a situation to garner a lot of sympathy.  Anyway, I digress.  I will take your advice to heart and try not to fret overly in choosing which X to go with.  Once I've made my choice and have my speakers, I'll share my experiences here and possibly help someone else, as people have taken the time to help me, to make a more informed and confident decision.  Thanks.

Josh 

[Daryl Zero]

For me, it's the open sound of speakers. The first time I heard a ribbon speaker, I fell for that sound. I went from Martin Logan hybrids to B&G to Magnepans and finally to Spatial Labs. Somewhat like an evolutionary chain. I was lucky in that someone had purchased the X5s and for space reasons, needed to sell them in my state. As soon as I heard them, I knew that this would probably be the last speaker set I would buy barring mechanical breakdown.

Plus the speakers are so revealing that you can totally change the sound by your upstream components or room treatment or just moving the speakers so there is much you can do without changing the speakers.

If you decide to make the jump, you will have plenty of support on this forum.

[davidb1]

Hello everyone. I'm David Brown. Been loving stereo stuff for 50 years. I live in Clinton Ms.

[Tyson]

If you find a speaker that you love the sound of, stick with it.  I find that very often I connect most with speakers that are not always the very top of the line or the most expensive.  So go with your gut and enjoy your new speakers!