M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400/450 Hours?

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RonN5

M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400/450 Hours?
« on: 7 Feb 2022, 10:27 pm »
As of Feb 7th, I'm at 400 hours but will continue to add updates as the hours increase.

People have posted their concerns with the sound of the M Sapphires, right out of the box up to a couple hundred hours, being somewhat thin or bright or not quite what they expected. Others have posted that these concerns will fade away as the hours tick away to something approaching 500.

I think its also important to remind new owners that how the speakers interact with the room, meaning the distance from the front wall, side walls and tilt angle are factors...meaning these all need to be tweaked but probably not until at least 250 hours and then tweaked again at 500 hours.  Then and only then should you consider changing your source, preamp, power amp, tubes, wires, etc.

With the above in mind, let me say a word about how I’m finding the sound on my M3 Sapphires at something just beyond the 400 hour mark.

My system:  Oppo 205 player/DAC analog into a Belles 22a tube hybrid preamp into a Digital Amplifier Company 2Cherry into the Sapphires (the tubes are nothing special, Electro-Harmonix gold pins).

My source material: CDs, no streaming, no analog, with a wide variety of music taste from Blues to Jazz to Rock to Classical to Big Band to Country and probably a few things I missed.

My room:  open concept, 30’x40’x10’ tile on concrete with rugs, furniture and glass door walls.  I’d describe it as a somewhat live room, no treatments.  The speakers are 41” out from the front wall and as you can see from the photos, side walls and rear walls are not an issue.  As you will see in my system photos, I have tile floors and the sliders under the front plus the felt pads under the rear give me a tilt angle about equal, or maybe a little greater, than using the longer spikes for those on carpet.  I’ve tried different angles and at this point, where I have them now sounds the best.

The Sapphires do a pretty convincing job of bringing music alive with a degree of realism that I’ve rarely experienced with home audio.  More importantly, they go a long way toward providing the emotional and physical experience you get when listening to live music.  They don’t just sound good, they “feel” good as well.

What do I mean by realism?  Pluck a guitar string, there should be attack, there should be some bite, there should be crispness not brightness.  The Sapphires do this beautifully.

Stand near a piano being played, there should be tone, there should be body and there should be scale.  The Sapphires do great piano,

Saxophone, trumpets, other horns; they should be brassy and powerful but not bright, yep, the Sapphires do these beautifully as well.

And voices, holographic, powerful but never sibilant; again the Sapphires excel.

They are impressive loudspeakers. They can play soft and they can play loud. They can play small and they can play big.  They can be subtle and can also be powerful, but they are always captivating.

Their sound is nuanced, layered, detailed and clear but not so much as to be harsh or analytical.  The bass is strong and deep and when appropriate, you can feel it.  The top end is extended.  The midrange never overwhelms your ears.

They completely fade away and all that is left is a three dimensional soundstage that often extends far beyond the speakers with height and depth and easy to locate instruments within the stage.  The sound is enveloping and they are very holographic!  Sometimes you look up, just a bit shocked, that there isn’t actually a person with an instrument standing right there.
 
They may take a while to break in, but they are definitely worth the wait.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=39068







« Last Edit: 16 Mar 2022, 06:36 pm by RonN5 »

forky

Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #1 on: 8 Feb 2022, 12:06 am »
Great post and yet another reminder I have to be more patient. Only 350 hours to go!

Mr. Big

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Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #2 on: 8 Feb 2022, 12:23 am »
Very well said. All those asking the same question over and over and some selling them due to not allowing time to fully break in, and room setup, etc. If I had kept bringing in my Quads as the M3's were breaking in I would have sold them within a month or so. Today I am more than happy and the Quads were sold. The big thing about an open box speaker is they are so open and dynamic that they will sound more bright dues to other speakers panels, Electrostatics be no way able to have the dynamic swings that an open baffle speaker, which is why people love them "they sound musical", yes, but that is because they can only go so far in frequency extension, dynamics, and with the focus more or less on the midbass to the midrange, and that makes them some like an Ice Cream Chocolate Sunday, our ears love them because so much is much produced in one major area of reproduction with the rest beautiful rolled off, the Quad 57's even more so and due to that a Quad 57 lover will say the Quad 63 is no match. Our ears love them, they do no harm but are they full range like an X3 or M3? Nope. You buy new speakers you have to learn how to set them up and wipe out in your memory how the music used to sound, clear your mind and then you catch all the great things Spatial Audio speakers do like no other for a sane amount of money. 

DaveWin88

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Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #3 on: 8 Feb 2022, 04:06 pm »
Great information guys. RonN5 hit it perfect about still needing to take the room into consideration. I have a very imperfect room like most of us, and just realized that my old speakers drivers just pointed at my couch (big absorption if you will) but the Spatials being tilted up, you really need to be aware of where the tweeters are pointing to, in my case right to drywall. I put a makeshift diffusor behind my listening position holy cow, massive improvement. Cd's are starting to sound excellent as before they could hardly be tolerated. Listening to Mozart's later symphonies,  I'm blown away at how every note is so clear and defined. Btw I have the little brother M6. I'm at the 120? hr mark. The whole open baffle technology really needs to be heard. 
« Last Edit: 8 Feb 2022, 05:48 pm by DaveWin88 »

Mr. Big

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Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #4 on: 9 Feb 2022, 01:21 am »
Great information guys. RonN5 hit it perfect about still needing to take the room into consideration. I have a very imperfect room like most of us, and just realized that my old speakers drivers just pointed at my couch (big absorption if you will) but the Spatials being tilted up, you really need to be aware of where the tweeters are pointing to, in my case right to drywall. I put a makeshift diffusor behind my listening position holy cow, massive improvement. Cd's are starting to sound excellent as before they could hardly be tolerated. Listening to Mozart's later symphonies,  I'm blown away at how every note is so clear and defined. Btw I have the little brother M6. I'm at the 120? hr mark. The whole open baffle technology really needs to be heard.

Tweeter point at the dry wall is not a good thing. 1st reflection damping needed. The front wall corner bass traps. That is to start.

RonN5

Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Mar 2022, 02:46 pm »
I'm now at about 450 hours and things are still smoothing out.  More importantly, I've been following a thread over at Agon regarding speaker positioning.  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/speaker-positioning-why-do-audiophiles-neglect-this-so-much

It got me to thinking that maybe I should see if some tweaks were in order especially since its pretty clear that the Sapphires are still changing. I decided over a period of weeks that I would try two things; changing the tilt/rake angle to more upright and the toe in from outside the shoulders to outside the left and right ears.

I made the adjustments slowly...first increasing the toe in slightly, then the rake angle slightly, then the toe in more then the rake angle more until finally I found a point that seemed optimal.  Compared with my original positioning I'd say that I increased the toe in by possibly 6-8 degrees and reduced the rake angle from somewhere around 10-12 degrees to somewhere around 5-7 degrees. 

The speakers are now about 41" out from the rear wall, 9' apart and 10' from the listening position.

The improvements to the sound include a much stronger center image and much better instrument location with virtually no reduction in soundstage width or openness.

Just a reminder to everyone still burning in their Spatials that some positioning tweaks may be beneficial.


Tyson

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Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Mar 2022, 03:20 pm »
I found with mine (the X3's) that pointing them straight ahead actually sounded very good.  I ended up putting a very small 10 degree angle on them as my current setup and IMO that's pretty optimal. 

RonN5

Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400/450 Hours?
« Reply #7 on: 16 Mar 2022, 06:38 pm »
No doubt that the room has a large influence.  Add to that the fact that the Sapphire mid/tweets have pretty broad dispersion and I suspect that people will end up with their own "best positions" and its important to keep checking as the hours build.

Tangram

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Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400 Hours?
« Reply #8 on: 18 Mar 2022, 04:52 pm »
I'm now at about 450 hours and things are still smoothing out.  More importantly, I've been following a thread over at Agon regarding speaker positioning.  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/speaker-positioning-why-do-audiophiles-neglect-this-so-much

It got me to thinking that maybe I should see if some tweaks were in order especially since its pretty clear that the Sapphires are still changing. I decided over a period of weeks that I would try two things; changing the tilt/rake angle to more upright and the toe in from outside the shoulders to outside the left and right ears.

I made the adjustments slowly...first increasing the toe in slightly, then the rake angle slightly, then the toe in more then the rake angle more until finally I found a point that seemed optimal.  Compared with my original positioning I'd say that I increased the toe in by possibly 6-8 degrees and reduced the rake angle from somewhere around 10-12 degrees to somewhere around 5-7 degrees. 

The speakers are now about 41" out from the rear wall, 9' apart and 10' from the listening position.

The improvements to the sound include a much stronger center image and much better instrument location with virtually no reduction in soundstage width or openness.

Just a reminder to everyone still burning in their Spatials that some positioning tweaks may be beneficial.

I would be interested to know Clayton's thoughts on time alignment. I am sure the rake is there for a reason.

Audiosaurusrex

Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400/450 Hours?
« Reply #9 on: 18 Mar 2022, 05:04 pm »
Interesting because my 2019 M3Sapphires without the outboard crossovers are completely vertical with no rake. Yes it would be interesting to hear Clayton’s take on this.

RonN5

Re: M3 Sapphires, How Do They Sound At 400/450 Hours?
« Reply #10 on: 18 Mar 2022, 07:35 pm »
With my Sapphires being 9' apart, having them point directly ahead leaves me with a very amorphous center image which is not at all realistic sounding. 

I suspect that the "perfect" rake angle is a function of Listening position distance from the speakers, seat height, ceiling bounce, etc.  One size probably doesn't fit all??