AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Daryl Zero on 27 Dec 2021, 09:33 pm
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DACs are one of the things that bother me. I understand their place in the chain but I've never really paid any attention to them until getting the X5s and I still am not sure they do anything. I watch a bunch of video reviews and apparently anyone can hear differences because of DACS which almost seems like snakeoil to me.
Assuming that DACs make a significant difference in your system, I have a few questions.
1. What DAC are you using and why?
2. Is there a DAC that works best with Spatial Audio Labs' speakers and why?
3. Is there any point in getting a DAC when the technology seems to be improving every year?
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Current reference is an APL DSD DAC ,the most analog sound I have experienced from a digital source.
DAC compatibility is with a digital front end,not speakers,they simply benefit from getting it right upstream.
Technology in DAC improvements is changing rapidly,what’s in today is gone to Maui.Do your due diligence and you will be rewarded.
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I’m using my M3 Sapphires with an RME-ADI FS and Teddy Pardo power supply. Coming from my MacBook Pro and Audirvāna it has a beautifully dynamic and transparent sound, going balanced into my Octave V70 Class A it’s hard to beat IMO.
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I use an iFi iDSD Pro because it's got a 'real' tubed output stage (and not just a tube buffer tacked on after an SS output stage) and it's fully balanced internally. It took me a while to realize it, but I've come to the conclusion that I'll never buy a non-tubed DAC again.
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I don't know if DAC's are snake oil but the differences between them I find subtle. I find larger, more significant, differences by moving the speakers around and dialing in room treatments.
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I went with a SS model, exaSound S88, multichannel DAC, and Teddy Pardo linear PS. They also make Stereo DACs.
What to look for:
-- Mine will convert, natively, DSD up to 256, DXD up to 32/352.8 and PCM up to 384.
-- Sabre ES9038PRO DAC chip
-- A number of features related to Jitter, Clock accuracy and USB Audio error correction.
I'm very happy with it. Server - USB - S88 - XLR to my Amp - to my X3s.
Marcus
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i have several dacs, used in different systems. long story made short, in answer to your other questions.
2) ask clayton for a recommendation. years ago he had me pair his cs1.3 speakers with a prism orpheus preamp/dac. i never had any cause to be dissatisfied.
3) there is value to be had at the low end of the high end. depending on your other components you might well be satisfied with e.g. schiit's $99 modi dac, which is really and outstanding bargain.
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i have several dacs, used in different systems. long story made short, in answer to your other questions.
2) ask clayton for a recommendation. years ago he had me pair his cs1.3 speakers with a prism orpheus preamp/dac. i never had any cause to be dissatisfied.
3) there is value to be had at the low end of the high end. depending on your other components you might well be satisfied with e.g. schiit's $99 modi dac, which is really and outstanding bargain.
I am using the Modi 3 dac for music from a computer. I have a cd player for use less frequently which I use the dac inside it.
I appreciate the answers so far. Additional question for Tyson: you still would recommend a tube output stage dac even if you are using tubes to amplify?
For me, I'll stay in a reasonable price range and/or buy used.
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Additional question for Tyson: you still would recommend a tube output stage dac even if you are using tubes to amplify?
I would. I find that I get listener fatigue after a couple of hours with SS based digital. Even with a tube amp and tube preamp.
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1. What DAC are you using and why?
2. Is there a DAC that works best with Spatial Audio Labs' speakers and why?
3. Is there any point in getting a DAC when the technology seems to be improving every year?
1. Motu Ultralite Mk 5. 8 Channel for my Audiolense setup
2. Nope, all a farce for those that say there is. Science doesn't lie.
3. Sure, just spend appropriately. There are Incredible dacs for under $900 (e.g. Topping D90)
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OP -- allow me to be blunt: if you have X5's and you're using the DAC in a CD player or a $99 DAC, then you're nowhere close to hearing how good your speakers really are. I own a Modi 3 and it's a toddler's toy compared to my main DAC. There are no shortcuts in high-end audio. As jtwrace mentioned, there are some great DACS at the sub-$1,000 level, but consider it entry-level for your purposes.
DAC technology appears to have plateaued in the past 2-3 years. The R2R DACs have taken center stage. Doesn't mean they're better than any other topology, just popular at the moment.
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I had a Aesthetix Pandora Eclipse with some NOS tubs that was out of this world good with my X5's. I have a Denifrips Venus 2 with my X3's now wishing I had the Pandora back.
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Networked Bricasti M1SE via Roon with X5's, is most excellent.
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I had a Aesthetix Pandora Eclipse with some NOS tubs that was out of this world good with my X5's. I have a Denifrips Venus 2 with my X3's now wishing I had the Pandora back.
You can get one on US Audio Mart for just under $6k now. Sheesh.
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OP -- allow me to be blunt: if you have X5's and you're using the DAC in a CD player or a $99 DAC, then you're nowhere close to hearing how good your speakers really are. I own a Modi 3 and it's a toddler's toy compared to my main DAC. There are no shortcuts in high-end audio. As jtwrace mentioned, there are some great DACS at the sub-$1,000 level, but consider it entry-level for your purposes.
Well that's the question. I've played in bands and I recorded music in somewhat rudimentary home recording equipment. I've also heard many forms of live music. I think I have a pretty good idea of what music sounds like in the wild. Is the DAC actually making the music better or is it doing something like hdr does in cameras, making it more surreal. Even if it is helping, the costs of DACs goes from $30 to six figures and how much is enough. How much of this is just related to how much you spend? Has anyone done blind tests to see if there really is a difference?
Unless you don't have a care in world about how much you spend, what is it you really need a DAC to do that your equipment can't already do? I understand that computers aren't really meant to be music servers and require a DAC. My cd player is the Rotel Tribute Series CD11 which has a Texas Instruments 24-bit/192 kHz DAC which sounds pretty good to my ears which the reviews I've seen seem to confirm.
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What is it you really need a DAC to do that your equipment can't already do?
One way to find out is to drop one in to your system and listen. With speakers as revealing as the X5's, if there's a difference, you'll hear it.
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You can get one on US Audio Mart for just under $6k now. Sheesh
I had a deal to buy that DAC (it use to be mine) we agreed on terms and then he backed out last minute with a bullshit excuse he's just trying to get more money he's had it for sale for 6 months.
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Well that's the question. I've played in bands and I recorded music in somewhat rudimentary home recording equipment. I've also heard many forms of live music. I think I have a pretty good idea of what music sounds like in the wild. Is the DAC actually making the music better or is it doing something like hdr does in cameras, making it more surreal. Even if it is helping, the costs of DACs goes from $30 to six figures and how much is enough. How much of this is just related to how much you spend? Has anyone done blind tests to see if there really is a difference?
Unless you don't have a care in world about how much you spend, what is it you really need a DAC to do that your equipment can't already do? I understand that computers aren't really meant to be music servers and require a DAC. My cd player is the Rotel Tribute Series CD11 which has a Texas Instruments 24-bit/192 kHz DAC which sounds pretty good to my ears which the reviews I've seen seem to confirm.
Sounds like you've got your mind made up. That's fine -- keep what you have. However, you would have saved a lot of money if you used the same logic for the purchase of your X5's.
Separate components are precisely what separates high-end systems from entry-level ones. For the past 20 years, virtually every high-end audio system includes a separate DAC. Many of us began our DAC journey with a CD player, and then we experimented with a cheap DAC and moved progressively to higher-end DACs. We didn't do that because we enjoy spending money or prefer "surreal" sounding music.
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Sounds like you've got your mind made up. That's fine -- keep what you have. However, you would have saved a lot of money if you used the same logic for the purchase of your X5's.
It's more that I'm skeptical. As for the speakers, I went up a chain so I heard the difference. I still maintained my stance of not spending over a certain amount of money and got the speakers slightly used for a big savings.
I just see some strange stuff in this hobby like cables and DACs which cost as much or more than the speakers and/or the amps. Anyhow, I don't consider myself an audiophile but more of a music lover. So I may try some stuff that is in a price range to see if it makes a significant difference.
Problem always is the lack of high end boutique stores where you can audition.
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It's more that I'm skeptical.
That's OK. Most of us started out skeptical. Audio ain't logical and much of it can't be explained technically, so it's practical to be cautious. None of us jumped into audio knowing we'd spend as much money as we have. Lots of hobbies are like that.
There's only one guiding principle: EVERYTHING in the audio chain can improve the sound of your system. This extends from the wire in your walls (dedicated lines) to the room itself (acoustic treatments). Because it requires extensive experimentation in your home and with your ears, this principle can take many years to sink in.
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Lower end of the high end DACS that I have loved include:
Audio Mirror SE (longest running DAC in my system at 2 years now and only desire to upgrade when I get a massive cash windfall)
MHDT Orchid
MHDT Atlantic
IMO it’s like I expressed in another thread, audiocircle is different than other audio forums in that listening, experimenting, fine tuning and synergy are emphasized alone with healthy skepticism. Some sites focus on measurements and some on the most expensive gear possible. People here are also respectful of budgets and I’m pretty sure every walk of life is represented here. Some mega bucks guys and others not so much.
As in all aspects of life, synergy is the key. Synergy between room and speakers, synergy between components, cables etc. and that can only be experienced in your room with your gear.
My secret: I buy current model only that is hot on the used market, from reputable sellers only. I started doing this a decade ago and went way overboard at the start as I was young and had lots of cash. In doing that I got to listen to dozens of amps, pres and DACS and heard first hand what I liked. I also compared what I heard to what others here heard and what reviewers wrote about the gear. Now I mostly no longer read reviews and instead have found a group of internet audio buddies who I know share the same tastes as me because I tried it all! Now I listen to their experience and no longer buy and sell so much.
Another thing that I learned: make friends with your local audio community. I bought and sold items, went to shoot outs and audio parties and in so doing made some amazing in person friends that now a decade later are some of my closest friends. Their ears were much better than mine. I could not hear little changes from one cable or piece of gear to the next but when I heard a system that was dialed in, boy did I notice that! So I would just mimic what they did and in so doing, a few changes over months led to massive improvements.
So welcome to the journey, and good luck. I’ve had some major illnesses the last few years and honestly my music and system has been a big part of my healing journey. Music soothes the soul.
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That's OK. Most of us started out skeptical. Audio ain't logical and much of it can't be explained technically, so it's practical to be cautious. None of us jumped into audio knowing we'd spend as much money as we have. Lots of hobbies are like that.
There's only one guiding principle: EVERYTHING in the audio chain can improve the sound of your system. This extends from the wire in your walls (dedicated lines) to the room itself (acoustic treatments). Because it requires extensive experimentation in your home and with your ears, this principle can take many years to sink in.
Exactly and the flip side of that logic: anything can be a bottleneck therefore making it challenging to hear improvements with certain changes in the audio chain.
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i think the notion of what dac works with what speakers is a bit misguided, at least in a vacuum...
to help us to help him, the op would hopefully be able to describe what sort of sound he likes and what type of music he listens to alot, and how the speakers currently sound in his room (we shall assume that they are set up well) and in what direction he would like to 'move' the sonic signature with a change in dac
if op is coming from a schiit modi or a dac inside a rotel cdp, there is plenty of sonic upside moving to a good outboard dac
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I cant speak to synergy with Spatial Speakers but in general dacs do make a material difference. That doesnt mean that you need to overspend. I have heard dacs that I enjoyed for $550 used and others that are outstanding for many times that. All depends what you are going after.
For example I once owned an MHDT havana $500 used with nos tubes and it was lush, holographic and large soundstage. Worked well with maggies in my room. The dac sound and speakers complemented one another. That said I would likely not pair that DAC up with a warmish sounding speaker.
There are many dacs in the new $700-$1000 range that do a really nice job and avoid the law if diminishing returns. Just a matter if what flavor you are after. What I find as you go way up in DAC prices… generally speaking is that you get that fullness, meat on the bone midrange but tons of resolution and not at the expense of ever being bright.
Others will likely disagree but sonically I do not think we are seeing massive leaps in DAC performance YoY. I see interface improvements with i2s. If you have an i2s source as I do then obtaining a dac with that input has some merit. At least as one factor in the decision process.
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I moved up from a Eastern Electric Minimax Plus MK2 with Burson V6 OP amps (huge upgrade in itself) which uses dual 9018 Sabre chips, to a Musical Paradise MP-D2 MK3, with all the goodies, which uses dual 9038 Sabre chips. The upgrade was night and day. The bass was far superior - don't think more bass. Think texture. Clarity. Grit. Depth. & Clean Clean CLEAN. This is basically the same throughout the whole frequency range. I can give it all the audiophile terms, but I'll spare it. It's just better. Way better. It sound SO close to vinyl, it's silly. My main regret with getting it is I went from 90% vinyl 10% digital, to 25% vinyl and 75% digital... I think in time I'll be 50/50. But it's stupid good. This was also comparing with my previous bookshelf speakers, which are nothing compared to the NX-Oticas or the Spatial X series - which will showcase these differences much clearer. It does not make the sound more "surreal" it makes it more real. Much more real. In my system, questionably real when you're in the room. Or you leave the room, and you swear there's instruments playing just around the corner.
In my opinion, which on this site has been disputed lol, is that DACs are the most overturned item in a system simply due to the fact that there's computer chips which will evolve much faster than a speaker driver, or capacitor, or tube for that matter... Yes yes, class D amps are evolving quickly as well. But, personally I've limited myself to about $1k on a DAC, which I expect to sell after about 5 years, and expect to only get about 25-50% return on investment. With a used (as I buy most of my gear) preamp for example, I expect to be able to sell them at the same price if not more than what I bought it for... Just how I work my budget in the system! :thumb: I got my MK-D2 from a fellow AC member locally for a great deal, and it was one of the greatest single improvements in my system. Highly recommended!
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For example I once owned an MHDT havana $500 used with nos tubes and it was lush, holographic and large soundstage. Worked well with maggies in my room. The dac sound and speakers complemented one another. That said I would likely not pair that DAC up with a warmish sounding speaker.
Daryl - if you're interested in something like this, I just listed my upgraded MHDT Havana with some great WE tubes.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649809178-upgraded-mhdt-havana-dac-with-extra-great-tubes/
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Daryl - if you're interested in something like this, I just listed my upgraded MHDT Havana with some great WE tubes.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649809178-upgraded-mhdt-havana-dac-with-extra-great-tubes/
Great Dac. One of my favorite audio buddies in LA who is in the music biz uses this one in his $50k system and I’ve never heard a better system.
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What he said ^
Proof that throwing money at a problem doesnt always solve it. My DAC today costs 8x the Havana but I wouldnt hesitate to use it again. I got totally out of hifi for 10yrs and when I came back I looked for one but they are rare on the preowned market.
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Daryl - if you're interested in something like this, I just listed my upgraded MHDT Havana with some great WE tubes.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649809178-upgraded-mhdt-havana-dac-with-extra-great-tubes/
I'm working now but would like to do a bit of research on this.
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You should. The key to happiness is knowing yourself and what you like/ value. Audio diversity and there is no absolute best anything!
If you tend to like a full holographic sound with roundness to it or if you are in the Show me the details camp. Polarizing views to make a point. I myself choose the middle because I have super diverse taste in music and can be listening to some audiophile recordings 1 min and Five Finger Death Punch the next so I want the detail and resolution but dont want to lose that full bodied midrange or have my ears assaulted with edgy treble.
I own a Denafrips Terminator II now but never heard an Ares II DAC. No idea if you should cross shop that vs the Modded Havana. For me the MHDT rode that middle line well were delta sigma based designs leaned more to the show me the details camp… not all of the way but right of center enough that I had a preference. With something like an Elac debut I like the Topping and SMSL as those Elacs are super polite and need a kick in the pants. A more transparent speaker with flat response I like the other options.
Side note… Piano Dreamers FFDP cover albums rock!!!
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So far with my X5's I have tried (in order) an MHDT Orchid, a Denefrips Pontus, a Denefrips Terminator2, a Denefrips T2 with a Hermes DDC, and now a Lampiztor Baltic 3.
I found the Denefrips to sound good but somewhat "digital"/artificial. The Orchid is a great bang-for-the buck DAC with a tube output.
Th Baltic 3 is an endgame DAC for me. It has the best USB input I have ever used and you can dial in the sound quite a bit by tube rolling. You can easily buy NOS tubes that best the ones that come with it. They are cheaper, sound better, and are more reliable than most "new production" replicas.
BTW. I play music at it's native resolution. I find it to sound more natural and less artificial. I have not found upsampling to sound better. YMMV!
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I use a Lumin T2 with my Spatials. No complaints at all.
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It's hard to get philosophical over a machine that processes 1's and 0's. Anyone thinking that a $5,000 power amp will sound better than a $500 power amp, but a $5,000 DAC won't sound better than a $500 DAC, is wrong - at least in principal. The same basic rules apply to DACs: better design, better components, better power supplies, etc, generally produces a better sounding product, for which you should expect to pay a premium. (as always there may be outliers which are exceptions to this basic rule).
Quite a few people are using Denafrips DACs on this forum, and it seems, with Spatial Audio speakers - and for good reason, IMHO - since Denafrips DACs sound good. My experience is with the Terminator range. Keep in mind that with the Terminator, as one moves up the T-line, you're exchanging a little added warmth for resolution. The original T with DSP upgrade is an excellent match for the X3 in my system. This speaker needs pairing with something a little on the fleshier side of neutral (in my room/system) and the original T with DSP board is a good fit in that regard. When I plug-in the Denafrips GAIA DDC, the trade-off begins. The DAC/DDC combo becomes more resolving, more focused, more detail-oriented, but loses a little warmth and body. I can regain some of the warmth by switching the T into NOS mode.
Anyway, I like the Denafrips Terminator. It was a nice improvement over the very good Moon Audio 380D.
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I use a Lumin T2 with my Spatials. No complaints at all.
I am using a Lumin T2 as well with my M4 Sapphires, sounds great! Currently using the T2 as my preamp.
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I agree on the Denafrips comments above. To add to that I would say that a Terminator II with a native i2s source like my Jays CDT2 mk3 via a customized ethernet i2s output using a wireworld pure silver ethernet cable is ridiculous. I run the CDT outputting 176.4 on redbook and it smokes any high res music that I have heard. The dynamics and presence are much more real than streamed music. Sort of out of scope of this thread so my apologies.
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I've tried a few DACs with my X5s. MHDT Orchid, Schiit Modius, Schiit Bifrost 2, Holo May KTE, Holo Spring 3 KTE w/preamp, and currently I have a RME ADI-2 FS and a Matrix X-Sabre 3.
For me, other considerations are just as important as the DACs performance. Aesthetics/build quality, the user experience, and the potential to streamline the chain with a built in pre and/or streamer. For those reasons, my favorite to date was the Spring 3 mostly due to the good preamp module. I regret selling and it and I'm thinking about circling back to it.
Right now I'm trying out the Matrix, it has the potential to check all the boxes for me, great performance and build, easy to use, nice and simple streaming. The only exception, and it's a big one is that I hate the volume control, so I'm probably going to get rid of it. The RME also performs as well as anything, but the menu system is maddening, that one is also going up for sale soon :icon_lol:
I'll also note that for the money the Schiits are worth looking at, if you simply want a basic DAC. I found that the Bifrost in particular was satisifying, I think I had it in my system the longest out of all those mentioned.
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One way to find out is to drop one in to your system and listen. With speakers as revealing as the X5's, if there's a difference, you'll hear it.
Exactly. I would recommend finding a DAC that compliments the character of the X-5. Then listen to it. Take a look at Recommended components to get an idea of price and sound. What Amp are you using, that makes a huge difference as well.
charles
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I don't have any of Clayton's speakers yet, but I am using the Cambridge Streamer with Dan's Mod.
Tubes + fully balanced outs! Sounds amazing.
http://www.modwright.com/modifications/cambridge-cxn-v2-tube-modification.php
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#chewbacca
Plus 1 on the Musical Paradise tube DAC. A wonderfully designed unit by Garry Huang Mine has the upgrade of Crystek Femto clocks, and I liked the AK4497 chipset the best. For you folks out there I've owned DAC's that were 6x the cost of
this unit. You can use 6 or 12 volt signal tubes and 5 or 6 volt rectifiers by just hitting a switch. I have a Holland built Philip's rectifier from the 50's and e88cc Telefunken's in the signal path. The caps also can be changed by the user with no soldering required. I like to use Vcap ODAM's or Mundorf Silver / Oil. It also has user changeable chipsets. I stream from a SGC streamer and Roon Core, to a Sonore optical Rendu and link to the DAC via a Mad Scientist Audio Black Magic USB to a Don Sachs pre to an LTA Reference 40 Plus to X5's. A couple other tweaks and power conditioners and I'm hearing some stunning music. If you're in the market for a DAC take a look at the MP. At around 1100 bucks it's a killer value.
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Just as an update, I purchased the used MHDT Havana and sold the Schiit Modi.
I have the speakers I want (X5s) and I'm happy with the amplifier (Rogers High Fidelity 65V-2) and the DAC seems fine. The DAC came with extra tubes and there was a bit of time where the speakers sounded harsh and I changed tubes and that seems to have solved things.
I seem to tend to want a more lush and full sound so I listen in triode mode exclusively and now with the tube DAC, I think that's achieved.
Thanks to all that responded. I would appreciate any update if something new and great comes along that isn't super expensive.
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Glad that it worked out for you!
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Agree with Early B. As difficult as it was for me to fathom, even changing the power outlets (Oyaide) made significant difference as did the power cords, Anti Cable Ref 3. I am about to do a remodel and hope to add dedicated lines for audio gear. As for DAC I use the MP D2 MkIII Deluxe (Musical Paradise) with all the upgrades, and I swapped in very nice 7308 tubes from Brent Jesse. Many on AC have commented on how this unit competes with DACs in the $3-$5k range. Two of our colleagues on AC and Spatial audio have moved up from the Musical Paradise unit to very expensive Lampizator DACs. For me the tubed MP unit is great! I had the X5s early on and was using a Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 DSD SE which I thought sounded pretty good. Then I saw all the comments on AC about the MP unit and bought one. It is a night and day difference. So much better in every way.
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I just upgraded my DAC to a Weiss 502. This was one of those instances where the first 5 minutes it was in my system I knew it was the one. The best way I can describe it is it get's out of the way and lets all the information flow. The presentation is neutral but fast (it handles complex passages with ease) and coupled with the X3's the sound is the best I've heard in my listening room. Currently I have it running directly into Don Sachs' Kootenay amp. I'm having a 300b power amp built by Matt at Toolshed Amps. He also makes a line stage to go with it but I'm going to live with the new amp for a bit before taking the plunge.
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I’m using an RME-ADI-2 FS with a Teddy Pardo LPS. Using balanced out into my Octave V70 Class A driving my Spatial M3 Sapphires and I am completely satisfied. The RME has DSP but I don’t even have it active.
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It starts at the source of the signal. Turntables or a good well made CD player with a good DAC with NO oversampling, like the Marantz SA-10. It has Coax inputs, USB inputs, and iPhone inputs. Everything is in DSD mode in conversation. No streamer I've heard can duplicate its sound quality and my dealer has been trying to have me follow the crowd for 2 years, smile, I don't follow the crowd happy to say, my ears tell me what sounds correct. I grew up on vinyl (many hundreds in my collection) never looked back, and the reason is great sound quality from CDs if mastered with care just like vinyl, you cannot make a poor compressed recording better no matter the format, and compression is not just in the now, it started in the mid-1970s. Mud for sound and bass and the quality of vinyl went to pot also and any LP with RE on the back upper corner sounded like crap and today I won't even get into how turntables are set up by many dealers they neither have invested in the equipment and scopes like the old day when vinyl was selling at 100 million units per week. Streaming is #1, but that got zip to do with sound quality, its hip, and convenience.
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^ +1
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Forgot to say that when I tried to pay for the MHDT Havana through PayPal, PayPal put a hold on the payment because of the name "Havana."
It was extremely annoying and quite comical.
Should be a lesson to manufacturers. Don't name your product anything that could be considered controversial.
Do not name your amp "Putin Out Watts"
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First make sure your loudspeakers are well suited for your room. Being Spatials that means a big room that is well shaped and insulated.
Second make sure your power amp is highly synergistic with your loudspeakers.
Then find a DAC that plays nice with the rest. Asking Clayton is probably the best advice.
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My DAC is an Auralic Altair G1 streamer/DAC/preamp with 2TB of SSD storage. I find it most pleasing on the smooth setting. The actual chip is the ESS 9038Q2M. I have M3 Sapphire speakers driven by a PrimaLuna EVO 300 integrated tube amp. It has 42w and sounds great at comfortable listening levels with excellent bass and detail. I can also crank it but then I get some rattles and artifacts from my room. I think any quality DAC will sound great with Spatial speakers with some fine tuning. On the analog side it is most important to have a good cartridge and table with a quality phono stage matched to the cartridge
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I like my Chord DAVE DAC with my X-5's and AGD Audion Mono Blocks. Lots of detail without harshness.
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Bricasti M1SE (with streamer) with my X3's
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This thing about Digital sounds like analog, well both formats when we hear it is in analog, one from a needle going through groves the other bits of information through a DAC and then out of an analog stage. I grew upon Vinyl, I still enjoy my CD collection as much as Vinyl if not more. It will always be how the recording was mastered and how much compression is used. Vinyl if it could do full-range bass it is about 1 song on an LP side, which is why the RIAA standard was designed to give balance on an LP of highs to lows so more songs could fit on a 33-1/3 by the tracking needle.
Seems to be a new hot DAC weekly and many keep trying to find the right one that sounds good. Reading from others it is so complicated and the addition of components in the chain not to mention EQ software. I was told years ago to keep it simple, best circuit designs are simple ones. I get exhausted reading some of these posts with so many complications and multiplications to just play a recording. Turntable, Preamp, amp and speakers, CD Player preamp, amp and speakers, both sound great to me. Spend money on your room, keep the chain simple, EQ'd music sounds that way, flat speakers sound that way. This is why say the Cleveland Orchestra sounds the way they do when recorded in Severance Hall, it is the sound of that hall that give them their own sound and you can hear it on any of their recordings. EQ that out you no longer have that sound. You have a flat boring sound with no personality you have stripped it all away. My friend has a Defrips Terminator 2 DAC and it sounds great, why keep searching? You have it right in front of you when the quality of the recording becomes prime #1 in one system and not the rest of the gear. You reached the audio heavens...smile
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With my X4s I am running an MSB Premier with Powerbase and Network Renderer. Probably will be my last DAC unless I one day move to the Reference model.
Prior to the MSB I had a Denafrips Terminator II. That DAC did a really nice job and sounded great but the MSB sonic improvements are as you would expect for the difference in price. For those who believe (think, with no evidence if we are being technically correct) that anything that costs more than $5k just isn't worth is and it is diminishing returns... I strongly advise you to never insert a world class DAC into your system because it may break your brain and your prior beliefs/ thoughts.
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With my X4s I am running an MSB Premier with Powerbase and Network Renderer. Probably will be my last DAC unless I one day move to the Reference model.
Prior to the MSB I had a Denafrips Terminator II. That DAC did a really nice job and sounded great but the MSB sonic improvements are as you would expect for the difference in price. For those who believe (think, with no evidence if we are being technically correct) that anything that costs more than $5k just isn't worth is and it is diminishing returns... I strongly advise you to never insert a world class DAC into your system because it may break your brain and your prior beliefs/ thoughts.
Very nice DAC indeed, I hope for $25K you see God every time you play a tune...smile! If your happy that all that counts and you got your money worth, me kids education to pay for.
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No kids, no wife (truly low noise floor) :lol: Just music, barbells and hiking shoes.
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DACs are one of the things that bother me. I understand their place in the chain but I've never really paid any attention to them until getting the X5s and I still am not sure they do anything. I watch a bunch of video reviews and apparently anyone can hear differences because of DACS which almost seems like snakeoil to me.
Assuming that DACs make a significant difference in your system, I have a few questions.
1. What DAC are you using and why?
2. Is there a DAC that works best with Spatial Audio Labs' speakers and why?
3. Is there any point in getting a DAC when the technology seems to be improving every year?
DACs can and do sound different. As I changed out DACs, did indeed notice that some DACs do sound better than others. Whilst I agree that many DACs sound more similar than different, there are some that truly stand out from the field. Had a RME ADI-2, which was slight improvement from a Oppo SDAC3. When I tried Chord Hugo-2, that was a real game changer. Suddenly, the time-domain portion of playback was MUCH better. The Chord sounds significantly closer to a high end analog setup.
Eventually obtained a Chord M-Scaler/Hugo-TT2 combination. The sound is absolutely amazing. No digital harshness whatsoever. When. CDs are upscaled to 705KHz, it's as good as it gets. The CD collection becomes a high resolution collection. The reason it sounds so good is the Watts Transient Alignment algorithm. Provides one million taps for a 44.1 khz signal.
The Hugo-TT2 also acts as a preamp and a headphone amp. Does a fantastic job of driving a pair of monoblock tube amps, as well as a pair of Abyss 1266 phi CC headphones.
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No kids, no wife (truly low noise floor) :lol: Just music, barbells and hiking shoes.
I didn't know you were doing time. How long is your stretch? :)
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Very nice DAC indeed, I hope for $25K you see God every time you play a tune...smile! If your happy that all that counts and you got your money worth, me kids education to pay for.
For $25K it better be an entertaining god at that.
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didn't know you were doing time. How long is your stretch?
Me? Nope I am a free agent. Fixed that glitch!
Benefits include:
- Proper speaker placement
- Blackest backgrounds ever
- Giant cables on risers
- Anything else you want to do or say in your house :lol:, this includes buying expensive gear (back to the subject)
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I already posted earlier about what DAC I am using but I thought that I would make a more general suggestion.
Rather than pursuing the trial and error method to find equipment or surfing the net to get a consensus about the "best" product, try to find out what the speaker manufacturer uses to demo their own equipment.
I have been fan of Linear Tube Audio equipment for a few years and have owned several of their products. For a while I experimented with various DACs, speakers and wiring. In time I realized that a good manufacturer with a house sound that I enjoy tends to cooperate with other like-minded good manufacturers that make equipment that is synergistic with their own. They also tend to use that equipment at trade shows to show their own product in it's best light and to present their own cultivated "vision" of good sound.
That realization brought me to Spatial speakers, Lampizator DAC's and Final Touch Audio cables all of which are remarkably synergistic with my integrated amp. The only problem I have now is that I cannot spend endless hours in hot pursuit which I have to admit that I enjoy. I am now limited to a bit of tube rolling and listening to music :-)
I find that my X5s with associated equipment has transcended into what I would call "spooky" good.
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Well, I've been rereading this thread.
Here are the issues I see:
1. Trial and error. These DACs you all are talking about range from $1,000 to $9,000 and I don't have any dealers to go hear the DACs. Trial and error is essentially impossibly expensive for me.
2. The Spatial Audio speakers are not the same with the M series differing from the X series so not quite apples to apples.
3. What is the job of a DAC? Isn't it supposed to do a better job of converting a digital signal to an analog signal (clarity and time)? But now we also think it should color the sound either with a tube sound If you are using a tube amp, why do you need double the tube sound? (Real question). Does that mean you just want more distortion in your music (even order harmonics)? Is that something properly coming from a DAC or the amp? Again, why do you have to spend another $3 - 7K to add more distortion to the music if a $1k DAC does a decent job of converting the signal?
4. R to R or chip? I understand R to R is an older system which seems to be in vogue now. My issue with the chips is that they get outdated quickly and never stop updating.
5. Is anyone ever satisfied with a DAC? On the other place to sell, the DACs seem to outnumber everything else in terms of lists of "for sale." My concern is that the DAC is an audio "black hole" which never seems to be filled. I wonder if that is because there is the thought that DACs are supposed to do everything including tucking you in bed at night.
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I've had my iDSD Pro fully balanced tube DAC for several years and I'm very happy with it. IMO, most SS gear strips out the natural harmonics that happens in music. Tube gear does a better job preserving it. And IME the DAC is the most important place to have tubes, because the digital gear is the most susceptible place for that 'bleached out' sound to occur.
Not that there aren't good SS DACs out there (there are), but rather, for me, tubes in the DAC are more important than having tubes in the preamp or amp. Because lost harmonic information at the DAC can never be recovered later.
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Well, I've been rereading this thread.
Here are the issues I see:
1. Trial and error. These DACs you all are talking about range from $1,000 to $9,000 and I don't have any dealers to go hear the DACs. Trial and error is essentially impossibly expensive for me.
2. The Spatial Audio speakers are not the same with the M series differing from the X series so not quite apples to apples.
3. What is the job of a DAC? Isn't it supposed to do a better job of converting a digital signal to an analog signal (clarity and time)? But now we also think it should color the sound either with a tube sound If you are using a tube amp, why do you need double the tube sound? (Real question). Does that mean you just want more distortion in your music (even order harmonics)? Is that something properly coming from a DAC or the amp? Again, why do you have to spend another $3 - 7K to add more distortion to the music if a $1k DAC does a decent job of converting the signal?
4. R to R or chip? I understand R to R is an older system which seems to be in vogue now. My issue with the chips is that they get outdated quickly and never stop updating.
5. Is anyone ever satisfied with a DAC? On the other place to sell, the DACs seem to outnumber everything else in terms of lists of "for sale." My concern is that the DAC is an audio "black hole" which never seems to be filled. I wonder if that is because there is the thought that DACs are supposed to do everything including tucking you in bed at night.
Sounds like you are in denial regarding paying for a DAC that is equal in quality to Spatial. I can relate to that. DACs unfortunately are no different than any other piece of audio equipment. You are paying for better engineering, more development time and higher parts quality. There are certainly some really good bang-for-the-buck DACs however. DHT Audio and Schiit Audio come to mind. Denefrips is also a good choice. BTW. Tubes are just a matter of personal preference. No need to argue that one.
You are right. There are very few good stores anywhere that carry the kind of equipment we are talking about. Perhaps consider buying used or buy with a good trial period return policy? My own experience is that money spent on your front end will always pay off.
It is true that new models are always coming out with great reviews but that does not make a good sounding older DAC suddenly sound bad. If you like it then it is good. Period.
What are you using now? If you are still looking for a DAC perhaps give Clayton a call.
Good luck.
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Daryl Zero, one of the advantages of the MP DAC is that it is modular and Garry Huang designed it so that when better chips come out he makes plug in boards which he sells at very low cost. I do not foresee going down this path as I am thrilled with the performance of this unit.
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I've had my iDSD Pro fully balanced tube DAC for several years and I'm very happy with it. IMO, most SS gear strips out the natural harmonics that happens in music. Tube gear does a better job preserving it. And IME the DAC is the most important place to have tubes, because the digital gear is the most susceptible place for that 'bleached out' sound to occur.
Not that there aren't good SS DACs out there (there are), but rather, for me, tubes in the DAC are more important than having tubes in the preamp or amp. Because lost harmonic information at the DAC can never be recovered later.
Not always. The Chord M-Scaler/Hugo-TT2 combination (IMHO) actually does a fantastic job of harmonics, time domain, and transients playback. Connect the Chord setup to a quality set of tube monoblocks, and one gets the best possible performance that each of the technologies have to offer.