[Brian Cheney]

We trust Mark's gorgeous new cabinets will be much more expensive so that people won't wait for them...send money now...send money now...send mon..........sen....................... ................................

[John Casler]

How will the new cabinets impact the price?

Although we haven't run all the numbers, we will probably see price "adjustments".

If Mark said one thing more than once as he was "inspecting" Brian's RM40, it was that Brian was "giving" the speaker away.

In fact I would say he said it several times.

While building cabinets in China may offer "better" cabinets, the total overall cost of the speaker, when all is said and done, may be impacted.

It goes without saying that there will be less "customization" since the boxes have to be ordered "in advance" and in certain quantities.

It is hard to imagine the "sheer visual impact" of a BirdEye's Maple RM40, but I do know the Ref One is 1/10 the size and weight and lists for $1500.

The Piano Gloss Black and Rosewood Brian mentioned are sure to be "premium finishes" and upgrades.

At this point I am pushing to get things "underway" and to solidify the "union".

It may mean some substantial changes which will be "released" when the time is right.  

It could also entail a full "line" of VMPS Products, including pre-amps, amps, ICs, speaker cables as well as other products and accessories, that would be "optimized" to work synergistically with each other.

Some of these already exist, and others will be "cherry picked" from some of the best designers in the field.

I think Brian's dream has been to provide "high end", Audiophile sound without the need for the "HIGH END" bank account to go with it.

Sure it isn't cheap, but if this all flys, Many of you could have $10,000 - $15,000 systems, that blow $80,000 - $100,000 spreads in the weeds.

But right now we are plotting and planning and negotiatiing

You know all the junk you have to do before you have fun

[Horsehead]

I think VMPS, if not already, will come to stand for:
"Voted Most Perfect Speaker"
I hope the name VMPS still stays........maybe we need another poll!
These are great times indeed.  Maybe you guys could do the HE2004 show in NYC.  
I met Mark there back in 2001 and he was a great person to talk to.  Really enjoyed my time in his room.  Best of luck in all that follows.

[Brian Cheney]

I think we have Mark firmly on our side now.  We'll just see how flexible he can be.  Squeeze, squeeze....

[John Casler]

TWEAK UPDATE    

I haven't forgoten about the tweaks I promised and I will deliver.

I just ordered the raw materials today from a supplier of mine.

I'll take some pictures when I get the "clean" tweak in place.  Right now my RM40s are a spiderweb of duct tape and (ah ah ah, I can't disclose the secret ingredients, just yet)

But I will tell you this.  I think if this works like the taped up prototype, I can make a huge floorstander throw a better imaging soundstage than any little monitor.

Right now I am simply amazed.

I have never in 30 years heard such a clear and distinct soundstage.  It is a full wall of sound when that is what is on the recording and it is a precision hard lined, well defined individual image existing in total blackness (no sound) when that is what is on the CD.

My bass tweak how ever has not jelled yet.

I'm still playing with it, and I even removed a couple fingernails of putty yesterday to a better result.

If you all have not run to your CD collection or out to the CD store and picked up any CD from Dire Straits with "Private Investigations" on it, please do so and yell at me if you don't like it.

Play it as LOUD  as you can stand and realize the first couple minutes are a bit slow, but after he makes the guitar sound like he is cocking a gun you are going to be blown away.

Easily as good as SRV's Tin Pan Alley or at least in the same league.

And this new tweak also makes the "old" recordings sound great.

I have been playing the Hendrix "Greatest Hits" (not generally my regular listening fodder) and as grating and harsh as this used to be, it is now incredible!!!

Can't wait for my supplies to land (probably take a damn week)

Later...

[rosconey]

just offer the cabinets as options so not to negativley effect the base price structure-
if the base standard price was to increase because all construction was done in china i dont think peole would be happy

[eico1]

could be another case of "be carful what you wish for"?(

steve

[TheeeChosenOne]

If Mark said one thing more than once as he was "inspecting" Brian's RM40, it was that Brian was "giving" the speaker away......In fact I would say he said it several times.  

The reason Brian has so much business is because he has priced his product RIGHT.

It is the OTHER esoteric brands that over-price their crap gear.

If Mark said Brian's "giving" the speaker away, then I wholeheartedly disagree with his comment.  Mark's  a business man and is always looking for opportunties.  Working with VMPS would be a no-brainer for him and a good synergy for Brian.

But GOOD CARE must be taken not to price out of the market with the newer cabinets.  It's difficult for me to conceive that cabinets made in China, including shipping and duties would be more expensive than any well-paid American cabinet contractor Brian currently uses.  

Geez, look at the gorgeous cabinetry Usher Audio (a "hot" new company) is shipping from Taiwan.  Their bookshelf speakers, for instance, have D'Appolito designed Scanspeak clone drivers & crossovers, solid wood panels....retails here for $1000, retails under $600 in Taiwan, and sounds like a much more expensive bookshelf than its asking price--especially with the current trend of modding its crossover to transform it into a multi-kilo buck sounding speaker.  Taking 50% retail/distribution costs out, then it's $300 wholesale in Taiwan?  Drivers are very cheap b/c it's all in-house; the cabinet is probably $100? Ok, make it $200?.....Well, you get my drift...


If Mark is trying to take advantage of Brian by hemming and hawwing by saying "YES, cabinets could be done at this good premium", then that could be viewed as opportunism.  And such behavior should be frowned upon--if it is this way.  

If Mark can keep in line with Brian's "Mission Statement" of providing good value, as has always been Brian's way, then customers will not be drawn away and will be happy to buy new gear with the new cabinets.   The price must be FAIR and BUDGET CONSCIOUS as has always been the VMPS way.  

I don't know the facts, and I'm only basing it on what has been said in this thread by John Casler and Brian.  

I hope Mark Schifter reads this and takes good care to be fair with Brian.  I'll be the first in line to buy new cabinets, but I'll take good care not to be taken advantage if I feel any of Mark's shrewd business tactics has been engineered against VMPS' loyal customers....

[Sedona Sky Sound]

Hello TheeeChosenOne,
My experience with shipping products from Asia is that it will add about 30% to the cost of most audio equipment (versus what it would cost in the originating country). Just recently I was looking at becoming the US importer for an absolutely fantastic stereo pre-amp from Taiwan, but once you figured in shipping, customs duties, customs brokerage fees, loan value of money, etc it quickly became cost prohibitive. The fact that you have to place orders 4-5 months before you need the product, must order in significant quantities, and that you have to pay for orders 2 months or so before it actually shows up at your factory door is something else that must be taken into account (versus Brian's current ability to call up the cabinet maker and have something made-to-order in a month or less).  

I lived in Asia for a couple of years (my wife is from Taiwan) and you may be surprised at how expensive it actually is. The cost of living in Taipei, Hong Kong, and Singapore are actually more than New York City. Wages in Hong Kong and Singapore are actually higher than the US, and  Taiwan is a little less (but they pay less taxes, have more government benefits, and healthcare is dirt cheap so it all equals out). The inner provinces of China are still relatively cheap (about half that of Hong Kong) but the salaries are raising relatively quickly as more companies move there and compete for the local labor. Skilled craftsman will require a premium no matter where you are in the world (but granted, a Chinese craftsman will still be half the cost of a similar US person).

This is strictly my own observation but basically you can't have your cake and eat it too. When you add up all the finance numbers, my personal guess is that the cabinets from China would have to be approximately 40% less expensive than what Brian currently gets in order for prices to remain the same. Also, speaking strictly from a business finance background, it would be foolish to think that Brian would be able to keep prices the same if he had both a Chinese and American supplier of cabinets (he would be unable to leverage the same level of bulk discounts from either source so overall prices go up versus using a sole source).

Lots of things play into this, so ulimately it will be a business decision that only Brian can make. At this point I know nothing more than what I have seen posted in this thread but am hoping to get "briefed" as soon as the dust settles a little.          

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

[dubravko]

Hello to everybody,
when TCO mentions Usher, I have a cute story from a recent Frankfurt high-end show. Usher room was very near to ours, some 20 meters away. They were offering for free one of their test CDs with some spectaculars and typical audiophile tracks for all guests. Our system was trinaural, 3xRM2, 3xAmpzilla 2000, Trinaural Processor, Cello Encore preamp and Electrocompaniet ECI 1 CD player.

At a beginning of second exhibiting day, I decided to hear what's on this CD, and the first track was the opening from Richard Strauss' Also Spracht Zarathustra. Since this was still a warm-up time with almost no visitors around, we decided to let a system breathe a bit more than usual, if only for this short piece before the neighbours come in and complain. Performance was absolutely spectacular, everyone of us have been amazed. I was sitting in the back row of seats, and simply as a joke told to my partner that we should invite people from Usher (who were indeed very nice) to our room if they want to get an impression of their recordings from a different angle. A couple of seconds later, when orchestra became completely silent, I stood up from the chair and looked at small entrance space of our hotel room - there were at least seven people from the Usher crew, boys and girls, all packed at such a small place, but obviously invited and intrigued with what they heard. At such a funny scene, and with their CD in my hand, I only managed to politely thank them for the nice compilation. Only one girl returned a smile, everybody else ran out this very moment.

I think that TCO's comment about VMPS being priced right, is very much right. If I make the direct comparison, Usher offered 5000 EUR pair of speakers of similar height to RM2 (CP 8571, one dome tweeter, and two 20cm cones that look like Scanspeak units). A pair of RM2 FS with Auricaps and custom finish would be in Europe also around 5000 EUR for end users. While Usher had Italian-like semi-elliptical cabinets which many people find attractive, for my ears they cannot be compared sonically with RM2 FS (or significantly less expensive standard RM2 too). However, their "setup" was so wrongly placed within a room (and that was the biggest negative surprise for me), that I can't really make any final conclusions of their sound quality, but I also think that I heard enough to say that their $1000 speakers aren't exactly worth like some $3000 speakers. Anyway, there seems to be no doubt among other dealers they'll be successful. It's a winning mix of "sonus faber" cabinets, "expensive Scandinavian" drivers, and most importantly, unbelievable dealer discounts.

[mlschifter]

Hello to everybody,
when TCO mentions Usher, I have a cute story from a recent Frankfurt high-end show. Usher room was very near to ours, some 20 meters away. They were offering for free one of their test CDs with some spectaculars and typical audiophile tracks for all guests. Our system was trinaural, 3xRM2, 3xAmpzilla 2000, Trinaural Processor, Cello Encore preamp and Electrocompaniet ECI 1 CD player.

At a beginning of second exhibiting day, I decided to hear what's on this CD, and the first track was ...

Greetings my dear friend...

If this is the dubravko *I know* --- I have some killer wine for you when I'm back in Moscow next month... do you have some wonderful food for me...

 

All the best... and long live Ferrari...

mls

[mlschifter]

I think we have Mark firmly on our side now.  We'll just see how flexible he can be.  Squeeze, squeeze....

I'm flexible... I'm flexible... I'm just working on trying to explain some of the potential impact on our business at av123...

This takes time to properly sort... look at... and explain... but besides your hand on my wallet (in the picture)... I can relax and see the future clearly from here...

More later...

All the best...

mls

[TheeeChosenOne]

I only hope that the VMPS/Mark Schifter alliance results in not pricing out of this narrow band crucial market.  Brian has hit the market sweet spot and should stay there--as has always been the way.

I've seen too many very well-funded companies go under b/c their stupid arrogant management price their product out of the market.....toooo many.

VMPS pricing should continue to be honest and fair--as has always been the case.

[mlschifter]

The reason Brian has so much business is because he has priced his product RIGHT.

It is the OTHER esoteric brands that over-price their crap gear.

If Mark said Brian's "giving" the speaker away, then I wholeheartedly disagree with his comment.  Mark's  a business man and is always looking for opportunties.  Working with VMPS would be a no-brainer for him and a good synergy for Brian.

But GOOD CARE must be taken not to price out of the market with the newer cabinets.  It's difficult fo ...

... I'm ONLY going to say this about that (to quote an unnamed person)... I KNOW for a fact... that my So. American - plantation grown rosewood cabinets in satin lacquer with piano black used where we spoke of and matte black for the baffle FOR SURE NO MORE than Brian is paying now (with respect to the RM 40)... I've already (quietly) had my guys in China quote this for me in my copious spare time...  

The question for me is how to proceed and at what level... you guys laid out for me what is really a three step process (within the overall plan)... and now I have to figure out how wet do I want to get...    This takes some serious thought and energy on my part... and I need to discuss some of parts two and three with others...

Time is ticking... but the good news is we all have our businesses to run in the meanwhile...

BTW... I would never take advantage of you or Brian... (not in my nature)... but I need to determine how to best serve all of our needs properly... within reason and within the time constraints I deal with on current work load...  

The good news is I'm excited about this... so it's first on my plate AFTER some of the current matters going on in Russia I discussed with you guys... (off the record please)...

More later...

All the best...

mls

[Marbles]

TCO, Brian's been in business for 25 years, I think he knows what he's doing............  Have a little faith.

[TheeeChosenOne]

Marbles, I *only* hope for the best for all parties.   All the best....in a sensible way.

[Mad DOg]

If Mark is trying to take advantage of Brian by hemming and hawwing by saying "YES, cabinets could be done at this good premium", then that could be viewed as opportunism. And such behavior should be frowned upon--if it is this way.

If Mark can keep in line with Brian's "Mission Statement" of providing good value, as has always been Brian's way, then customers will not be drawn away and will be happy to buy new gear with the new cabinets. The price must be FAIR and BUDGET CONSCIOUS as has always been the VMPS way.

TheeeChosenOne,

I'm sure that Mark will not take advantage of anyone...

If you knew him or have met him, you would see that.

1st: take a look at his products and business model at AV123...it's all about VALUE...

2nd: look at his track record...he continues to repair Audio Alchemy products (a company that was mismanaged by the new owners after Mark sold it) out of HIS OWN POCKET!!! how's this one for OPPORTUNISM?

3rd: he treats EVERYONE with respect and compassion whether or not they like his products.

I hope you have the opportunity to meet him one day...really an incredible human being!

[John Casler]

I'd have to agree with the Mad Dog.  

With Brian and Mark, you have two guys (genius/gentlemen) who have two things in common:

They both LOVE audio

and

They both represent some of the best VALUE in the business.

Marks comments about Brian "giving" the speaker away were not detractions but amazed compliments, of knowing the true value it represents.

If my post gave you reason to think there will be price increases then I sent the wrong impression,

But...

It might be premature to say what prices will be other than reperentative of the past, present, and future philosophies of the parties that may be involved.

It might be possible that even more attractive pricing may be realized with all things considered.

Premium cabinet finishes have always been an "upgrade" with VMPS and I doubt that will change.  I also assume we will still have a small menu of other options that can also be selected "ala carte".

Brian and I laid out a rather complex and stepped BIZ Plan that should by all assumptions provide a "vital" and flourishing VMPS.

If we had everything we wanted VMPS would also offer a significant group of synergistic components, electronics, and accessories that would take the "High Price" out of "High End Audio".

This has been the Driving Goal and Focus of Mr. B ever since I have known him.  Of course we have our fantasies of "reviving" HIGH END a bit, but that will play out in the Market Place.

With Mark's enthusiasm and abilities, and Brians TechnoWizardry, I think the greatest years of Audio are not to far in the future.

I will say that Brian has not in any shape of form "rested on his laurels".

He has yet again taken that 10 year leap ahead of the rest of the pack with a speaker technology that promises to "antiquate" most other designs.

When others "start" to employ the ribbons that Brian has been using for years, he will be on to more advanced designs that promise to deliver "major" improvements.

That is what you have to look forward to in the next few years and I can guarantee that the Sonic Sorcerer of El Sobrante is in another dimension compared to other designers of the same art.

My mind is "still" reeling from information overload, from this weekends meeting.  To bad you all were not in the same room to see two "Audio Minds" light up and "sync up" to the future of speaker design.

It was truly inspiring.  Jaws dropped, heads nodded, eyes opened wide  and the creative energy flowed like a Vulcan Mind Meld

I on the other hand sat back and wished for whatever "osmotic" transfer was available to me.  And some of it did sink in

So the future of Audio is bright indeed.  I am only too happy to be associated with two of Audio's Best and look forward to be able to explain more as we feel the information can be released.

This thread has already brought most of you into a family of entusiasts who strive for one thing... the reproduction of that Sound Absolute (didn't want to step on HP)

The direction is forward and the wheels are turning.  It is hard to contain my excitment  

[nathanm]

If may interject here, I hope ya'll don't mind...

As far as alternate cabinets for VMPS speakers go, I would suggest to make them shaped like anything except a rectangular box.  The purely utilitarian nature of the stock cabinets, built like a brick shithouse as they may be, are what kinda dulls my interest in trying out the VMPS brand, despite my lust for the extended bass.  If they were slanted or curved, or trapezoidal or some unique shape that would be the kicker, not simply just really nice veneer or whatever.  Think something like the top two models shown on this page.   It doesn't have to be super exotic, just have some nice angles.  Anything besides a straight box.

My 2 cents...

[dubravko]

Greetings my dear friend...
If this is the dubravko *I know*
mls

Thank you for the greetings Mr. Schifter, but I haven't got a pleasure to meet you so far. However, my name is exclusively Croatian, and I never heard it anywhere else, so I guess a person you know might be originally from my country, living in pretty far away Moscow.
Although it is not complex at all, most nutritionists agree that Mediterranean food is the food for human beings. So whenever you decide to go considerably more south-west from Moscow, you are very welcomed to taste it in it's original environment (which is even better than the food, particularly at this time of year).
As for Ferrari, I had a chance to drive it a couple of times and I can wholeheartedly agree with your enthusiasm, but meanwhile, I'll continue to have faith in my almost vintage MB.

I have only the best wishes for your business efforts with VMPS.