[rbbert]

...They will deliver in big systems too, like the VAC 450iq, mentioned at the Florida show.

And that was with the Apollo's, not even the Apollo 11's

[zmikem53]

I’m currently using the First Watt SIT3 with the Daedalus Athena V2. Previous to that I had the Pass XA25 for about a year.
Was quite happy with the XA25. Very transparent and musically involving. Had enough oomph to do most music at more than adequate volume.
I purchased one of the First Watt SIT3 amps to try before they sold out. I had them both for several months before I let the
XA25 go… The 18wpc Single stage VFET sound is simply glorious..  Great match for the speakers and my system/room.
My room is 17x 25 x 13’ ceilings and opens up to other rooms..  I have yet to hear any compression or clipping.  These speakers
Truly seem to match their sensitivity spec, unlike others I’ve owned in the past.
Low power class A working out well for these speakers ! Thanks Lou !

[beaglebump]

Until recently, had been pairing my Athena v.2 with Merrill Veritas (class D) power.  Now enjoying a consort of VAC power: Statement 450S iQ amp/ Signature SE pre.  Quantum leap forward in every direction.  Stunning to hear what the Athena can present with that level of amplification.

 

[rbbert]

How many times more does your amplification (amp + preamp) cost than your speakers?

[beaglebump]

For me, it makes sense to build from the wall-out/ground-up, beginning with power processing, conditioning, and amplification.  No front-end source or subsequent speakers will work their best if not provided the best possible energy with which to fuel them.  And to this end, its not always a price<quality ratio, rather just thorough research and auditioning to achieve max. synergy.  Case in-point with my 11 yr old Athena - Had no idea what they were capable of until now.  And, remember the show results from putting a VAC 450iQ Integrated behind those Apollos.  Incredibly expensive power source, yes, but the point is clear.  Max out your power plant, and the more everything else can be revealed, IMHO. 

[genjamon]

Totally agree, Beagle

[rbbert]

Actually I would say the opposite, although ideally everything should be "balanced".  At a couple of shows I attended Peachtree matched their $3k DAC/integrated amp with TAD Reference speakers ($70k/pr at that time) and the sound put many rooms with more expensive systems to shame.  I would be surprised if Apollo 11's and a Vitus or DarTZeel integrated (total cost about 1/2 the VACs) didn't produce better sound, but certainly to each his own.

[genjamon]

For a great many reasons, show conditions are not realistic conditions to indicate in-home performance. Further, no one said you can’t get good sound with other approaches.  But my interpretation is that we’re talking about the difference between good sound and great sound here. And that requires optimization, no matter what your system. And you can’t achieve it without extensive attention to every stage of the system. And my experience tells me you can achieve great sound with less than megabuck speakers, if your electronics, and especially source, are clean enough. And it all starts with the quality of your power.

[Berto]

For a great many reasons, show conditions are not realistic conditions to indicate in-home performance. Further, no one said you can’t get good sound with other approaches.  But my interpretation is that we’re talking about the difference between good sound and great sound here. And that requires optimization, no matter what your system. And you can’t achieve it without extensive attention to every stage of the system. And my experience tells me you can achieve great sound with less than megabuck speakers, if your electronics, and especially source, are clean enough. And it all starts with the quality of your power.

Yes it's MUCH harder to get good sound at shows. You have one day to setup in a unfamiliar room. Limited acoustic treatments. No dedicated electric and you're sharing it with many other systems. 

[Early B.]

For me, it makes sense to build from the wall-out/ground-up, beginning with power processing, conditioning, and amplification.  No front-end source or subsequent speakers will work their best if not provided the best possible energy with which to fuel them.  ... Max out your power plant, and the more everything else can be revealed, IMHO.

Absolutely!!! 

Everything in the universe is predicated on energy. Sound is vibratory energy. In audio, great sound is a function of power -- dedicated power, power conditioners, power cords, power supplies, and amplification. 
 

[zmikem53]

Agree Beagle..  Everytime I have improved the electronics, the speakers reflected the improvements.
Daedalus also builds its speakers to sound the same throughout its lineup. basically scaling for room size..
Nice system you have there , Enjoy

[advanced101]

Interesting thread.  Congrats on the VAC setup!

There are no wrong answers here but I find most people swap electronics far more often than speakers, for obvious reasons.

My approach is speakers first, although its the most painful exercise.  IMHO, speakers/ subs, per dollar, create the most improvement.  As long as there are no issues with your power or room.

If you are completely happy with your speakers, then go nuts!


My question would be (not directed at any one person)...

At what point do you upgrade the speakers rather than the pre-amp/ amp?

[genjamon]

At what point do you upgrade the speakers rather than the pre-amp/ amp?

Whenever I’m ready to redesign the entire system!

[rbbert]

Yes it's MUCH harder to get good sound at shows. You have one day to setup in a unfamiliar room. Limited acoustic treatments. No dedicated electric and you're sharing it with many other systems.

That was just an example I thought people might find easier to relate to.  My experience, like that of many, is that going "overboard" on one part of your system, be it source, amplification, speakers, cables, power, etc, is rarely as cost-effective as spending that same money on upgrading all (or at least several parts) of your system.  There are audiophiles who will spend half of their system budget on cables, but I doubt that would be the approach for the majority of us.  Obviously anyone (everyone) is free to make their own value judgements.

[Dieterle Tool]

Yes it's MUCH harder to get good sound at shows. You have one day to setup in a unfamiliar room. Limited acoustic treatments. No dedicated electric and you're sharing it with many other systems.

 IDK man, the hotel room is no different than many of the smaller rooms some of us are dealing with. It may well be a better environment for auditioning than some of the b&m rooms. The trick is to set up a kit suited to the room size. These big brand sales reps want to put their flagship model in a dynamic display that over pressurizes the room. I would put these models in static display and focus on smaller machines that are suited for the space. Seems logical but commission precedes logic. No dedicated electric and sharing electrons with 50 reps can be a problem. But what are all these power conditioning products good for if it can't clean and regulate the power to the gear in this setting (which would be similar to an apartment)? Again, seems like a perfect environment for said manufactures to showcase their talents.

And how unfamiliar is it?  Same setting, year after year, I would think they would have it figured out by now.

-Dieter

[genjamon]

That was just an example I thought people might find easier to relate to.  My experience, like that of many, is that going "overboard" on one part of your system, be it source, amplification, speakers, cables, power, etc, is rarely as cost-effective as spending that same money on upgrading all (or at least several parts) of your system.  There are audiophiles who will spend half of their system budget on cables, but I doubt that would be the approach for the majority of us.  Obviously anyone (everyone) is free to make their own value judgements.

Well this is a much more balanced approach than your TAD/Peachtree example led me to believe, where you were pairing speakers 10x the price of all electronics in the aggregate. Such an example suggested to me you preferred investing vastly disproportionate resources in the speakers. I don’t disagree with this more balanced statement of yours.

[rbbert]

I was trying to illustrate an approach diametrically opposite to the amplification costing about 10x the speakers.  Either one can have what initially appears to have an outstanding result.  Seems to me each is misguided, but obviously that is only my opinion.

[genjamon]

Fair enough. But if choosing between the two scenarios, I would rather have 10x more in electronics than 10x more in speakers, provided the right speakers and electronics (meaning the money in both cases is spent on things that produce audible value of course).

[rbbert]

But why make that choice (not that I agree with you) is the real question.

[Daedalus Audio]

For years I have tried to give solid advice to my customers, and one bit that has held up is to start with the best speakers you can afford (and fit in your room). Of course there should be a sense of balance in performance across all the gear, but the speakers are the final (besides room) piece of the chain. They are literally what you hear and ideally you do NOT want them to limit the system. If the speakers are the limiting factor in the system there is no way you can really judge any other part of the chain. Also as mentioned already, most people do not change speakers as readily as other parts of the system, and with good reason. Price alone is not the final arbiter of quality, there are many amps, speakers etc that perform way beyond their price. 
Bottom line is to buy the best speaker you can and one that you feel will deliver the sound you enjoy for many years to come, then build your system around that.