M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)

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SnowPuppy77

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M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« on: 6 Nov 2019, 04:07 am »
This review is really an initial impression as I have only had the M3 Sapphires for about a week.  But since I am already so pleased with their break-in progress and the way they sound I felt it a good time to give some early impressions because several of you are wondering how they compare to the M3 Triode Masters (M3TM) which I am upgrading from.  Glad to answer any questions you may have.

System:
PS Audio Dectet power conditioner
Pro-ject The Classic turntable with Clear Audio Ebony Performer V2 cartridge and Pangea phono cable
Schiit Mani Phono preamp with Swagman Labs power supply
Cambridge Audio CXC transport with Transparent coax digital cable
Schiit Yggrasil (Analog 2)
Schiit Ragnarok integrated amp
DHLabs Air Matrix balanced interconnects
Kimber 8PR speaker cables

Unboxing and Assembly
Unboxing was a bit easier than it was with the M3TM.  The Sapphires come with the stands and cone spiked feet already attached and ready to go.  So, the only assembly required is to plug the banana plugs into the back of the mid/tweeter and then plug your speaker cables into the main binding posts.

Describing the Build
The M3 Sapphires have a 3-layer baffle.  The rear baffle is comprised of two layers at just over 2 inches thick.  It is wrapped in black laminate.  It looks clean and nicely done.  It is just a neutral black and does not draw attention to itself as being either cheap looking or fancy.  The front baffle which is about 6/10th of an inch thick does draw attention to itself and in a good way.  The Sapele wood veneer is very nicely finished with a natural matte vs glossy look.  I am very pleased that Clayton has decided to go with a choice of wood veneers.  While I do think the M3TMs are attractive speakers I would personally have liked them more if they had a wood veneer like the M3s that were sold in Europe.  I just love loudspeakers with a nice real wood finish that makes each speaker unique.  And the finish on my M3 Sapphires fully satisfies.  It is interesting to see how the Sapele reflects light differently throughout the day.  I believe these speakers are gorgeous and I am very pleased with the build quality overall.

Sound
I initially set the M3 Sapphires in the exact same spot and toe in as the M3TM before ultimately adjusting for less toe in.  Only difference being that the Sapphires are 2 inches wider and thus the centers of each speaker is 4 inches further apart than I had them with the M3TM.  Within the first 30 seconds of hearing the M3 Sapphires I could tell that they had better clarity, more extension in the highs, and more bass impact.  And the imaging was already detached from the speakers.  The M3 Sapphires do impress immediately.  However, after further listening with a switch to acoustic music a quote from Superflam came to mind “I'm wanting more presence and weight from the mids.”.  Piano and classical guitar where sounding thin lacking desired weight and fullness.  One thing the M3TMs do very well is tone and timbre with acoustic instruments.  The M3TM may not have the best high frequency resolution but they do no harm and have very good mid-range resolution with fully fleshed out images.  I love chamber music on the M3TM.  All that said I knew it was too early for critical listening as it was still only a couple hours into day 1.  While at work the next day, I played brown noise through them all day.

By day 2 after work I could already tell that the tonal balance was improving with acoustic guitars having more fullness.  But still things were sounding a little stiff.  Later that night I played The Doors Riders on the Storm at a moderate volume.  This track is where I first began to understand just how much more musical insight the M3 Sapphires were bringing to the table vs the M3TM.  The cymbal tap was clearer and more prominent, the bass was meatier and more palpable, the bass had more detail with each pluck sounding like a more distinct event, and an image and stage height which is much more enveloping.  The keyboards on this song just sounded sublime.  Like I was watching as much as listening to them.  Jim Morrison’s voice sounded very clear and had the fullness I would expect it to have.  However, there was an acoustic space around his voice that I had never noticed before.  Not sure if this is the physical space he was in or a special studio effect but the M3 Sapphires were laying it bare.  The sense of the acoustic space and/or studio effects are easier to notice on other recordings as well.  I then thought of an analogy.  Being a Lord of the Rings fan, I could not wait for the initial release of the movie trilogy on Blu-ray.  This movie did look good on DVD but as expected the sharpness and detail was much improved on the Blu-ray.  A casualty of this increased resolution was some of the special effects now looking fake or less real.  But once you have seen it on Blu-ray there is no going back.

On day 3 listening was still limited due to work and other things in the evening.  Played some familiar vinyl and noticed that the noise floor, pops, and tape hiss were considerably more prevalent than I am used to.  This is not the fault of the speaker but a reality of a less than stellar pressing from an older analog master.  The Sapphires were simply revealing more of what is there vs. the M3TM good or bad.  The Sapphires are definitely brighter or more illuminated than the M3TM.  Brighter but nicely balanced by the full and powerful bass.  The Sapphires seem more neutral in the highs.  This brings us to another thing that makes the M3 Sapphires so special, you get illuminated high frequency extension but without the listener fatigue that often accompanies it.  A good example was Brian Bromberg’s Wood CD.  The bass intro was as palpable and detailed as I have ever heard and I have heard this on several systems.  More bass detail and authority than the M3TM for sure.  Also, the image of someone standing upright and plucking a bass viol was more convincing.  When the drums, cymbals, and piano joined I could tell the upper harmonics were more present.  Beautifully illuminated and smooth with good timbre.  The increased insight had me transfixed eagerly awaiting each millisecond to deliver something new with this familiar recording.  At the end of the first track the gentle trills of the piano and cymbals sounded beautiful as they decayed into silence.

By day 4 after work much of the stiffness was going away after another full day of brown noise.  I put on a 35 min long psychedelic track by Porcupine Tree call The Sky Moves Sideways (CD2 version).  Bass was impactful and full coming from the keyboards followed by tight and punchy bass drum kicks.  As the higher frequencies joined in with the cymbals, synths, and guitar a beautiful soundscape created by Steven Wilson was on full display.  I was in total bliss through the entire piece on the M3 Sapphires.  I was mesmerized.  Discovered countless nuance I had never heard before.  Have never come close to enjoying this track so much with no fatigue on even the intentionally harsh sections at moderately loud volume.

Day 5 (Weekend has finally arrived)
I finally had several hours of quality time to spend with the M3 Sapphires. That morning started with Govi Seventh Heaven.  Bass was full and voluptuous.  Bongo drums and tambourines floated in space.  Guitars sounded as full and natural as I had ever heard revealing that the midrange was fleshing out.  While highs were open and illuminated all was very balanced with the rich and tight bottom end.  Just kept listening through the CD when I only planned on hearing a couple of tracks.  My mind had kicked out of audition mode and was engaged in discovery and enjoyment.
Switching to the Telarc CD Bach Organ Blasters I discovered a power and definition in the low frequencies that I was not able to achieve with the M3TM.  Especially on the Fugue in D Minor.  The piece ends with the organ going full throttle.  When the deepest pedals came in, I could just feel the power and impact.  At the same time lots of details could be heard with the air pulsating through the pipes.  This was the type of organ power and detail that my M3TM just could not deliver.  Now my Dad’s JL Audio Fathom subwoofer is definitely more powerful and also has good detail.  But for a 60 watt amp with passive speakers this is truly remarkable.  Bass is the most expensive thing to get right in a box speaker and you get bass like the crazy expensive stuff with the M3 Sapphires for peanuts in comparison.  You get this bass power while at the same time stand-up jazz bass sounds beautifully detailed, nuanced, and palpable.  I then played Author Willis “The Vikings” Reference Recordings and the organ climax of that piece was again stunning in its deep power and detail with the deep organ pipes for speakers without a subwoofer. 
Orchestral music is great on the M3TM.  On the Sapphires bass drums do have more detail and impact.  The stage on the Sapphires is taller and bigger.  I noticed that the dipolar compression driver gives a little more depth to the M3TM sound field on some tracks.  That said the Sapphires image better than the M3TM on and off axis. 
Back to vocals.  I played Mindy Smith Raggedy Ann from One Moment More.  Mindy’s voice was projected front and center with excellent detail and beauty.  Same with Norah Jones with the track Nightingale.  Any concerns about weight or presence with vocals were gone with just about 30 hours of break-in with brown and pink noise.
And finally, I played Rutter’s Requiem.  The huge undergirding of the organ pipes, the solo cello, and the ethereal voices began to stir strong emotions.  As the choir sang in unison full strength “For they mercy’s sake” they projected in stark relief into the room.  At that point I was overwhelmed with emotion as Rutter through the musicians, my components, and the M3 Sapphires did their job of refreshing my spirit.

Downsides?
Of course, there are downsides with every speaker.  For starters the M3 Sapphires are substantially bigger and heavier than the M3TM which can make a difference when space is tight.  Also, with the M3 Sapphires there is definitely a change in tonally balance vs. the M3TM.  I find the tone of the M3TM excellent for older digital chamber music in that it is forgiving while still having satisfying resolution.  While most of my chamber music reaches new heights with the M3 Sapphires it makes lesser recordings sound poor by contrast.  Also, the M3TM on some tracks has more depth to the sound field.  That said I still prefer the sound field of the Sapphires by a wide margin. 

Conclusion
Clayton was not exaggerating when he said the M3 Sapphires are a significant upgrade over previous M3 models.  For me the there is no going back to the M3TM.  The bass improvement of the Sapphires is far from subtle.  It is a big improvement that is appreciated every time I play them.  The crossover less mid/tweeter offers a substantial increase of insight into recordings without sounding etched or fatiguing.  And all is integrated beautifully.  Love them.
« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2019, 03:28 pm by SnowPuppy77 »

HanaEyes

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #1 on: 6 Nov 2019, 11:36 am »
Sounds really awesome!! Living in Asia, it is very difficult to take advantage of any 30-60 day return as shipping fee is already a bomb (last quoted was about $700 for air freight), nor utilise any trade in offers as shipping the speakers back would be another bomb.

It's a shame that I'll need to make purchasing decisions base on what I read (direct sale model), unless I'm fortunate enough to stumble across someone in the country who bought it blind (that's how I heard the m4ts in the first place, bought a fuse off someone and found out he ordered it blind and I immediately asked if I could visit and have a listen  :lol:)

Your review on the Sap M3 really tickles me, and this upgrade bug needs to be contained  :lol: I do find that resolution on my m4tm is not its strong point (it's good, but definitely lacking detail compared to most setups I've heard). The highs lack extension, decay is brief and lacks a bit of sparkle and energy, so reading that the new Sap M3 addresses these issues is really making me itch.

There's also some reluctance to spend as it seems like only yesterday when the TM series was announced, and I've only owned mine for slightly over a year :( For now, I'll try to be contented by feeding off the happiness of new Sap owners!

musicdre

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #2 on: 6 Nov 2019, 01:59 pm »
thanks a lot for the detailed report.   its much appreciated.  -andre

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #3 on: 6 Nov 2019, 02:03 pm »
Sounds really awesome!! Living in Asia, it is very difficult to take advantage of any 30-60 day return as shipping fee is already a bomb (last quoted was about $700 for air freight), nor utilise any trade in offers as shipping the speakers back would be another bomb.

It's a shame that I'll need to make purchasing decisions base on what I read (direct sale model), unless I'm fortunate enough to stumble across someone in the country who bought it blind (that's how I heard the m4ts in the first place, bought a fuse off someone and found out he ordered it blind and I immediately asked if I could visit and have a listen  :lol:)

Your review on the Sap M3 really tickles me, and this upgrade bug needs to be contained  :lol: I do find that resolution on my m4tm is not its strong point (it's good, but definitely lacking detail compared to most setups I've heard). The highs lack extension, decay is brief and lacks a bit of sparkle and energy, so reading that the new Sap M3 addresses these issues is really making me itch.

There's also some reluctance to spend as it seems like only yesterday when the TM series was announced, and I've only owned mine for slightly over a year :( For now, I'll try to be contented by feeding off the happiness of new Sap owners!

I had my M3TM for a year as well before ordering the M3 Sapphires.

I actually think the TM compression driver has very good resolution in the midrange and lower treble.  Sounds much better than most speakers I have heard with brass.  The TM compression driver also has explosive dynamics.  The resolution just diminishes in the upper frequencies as you say “highs lack extension, decay is brief and lacks a bit of sparkle and energy” in comparison to some speakers.  That said the TM compression driver’s faults are subtractive and not additive.  They error in the right way with highs being sweet and lacking harshness.  Another attribute of the TM compression driver or the MTM speakers in general is a clear separation or layering of musical lines which many other speakers I have heard simply can’t do.  They are very open and uncongested.  That quality alone offers more insight into the music fabric.

abd1

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #4 on: 7 Nov 2019, 07:08 pm »
Wow, great review. I'm glad you're enjoying them. Glad to hear the M's sound so good. X5's are likely my next speaker when the time is right...

PS

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #5 on: 7 Nov 2019, 08:09 pm »
@SnowPuppy77

Thanks so much for your terrific/comprehensive review.  I find it extremely helpful as I consider a pair of M5 Sapphires for my small, dedicated listening room.

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #6 on: 7 Nov 2019, 08:56 pm »
Wow, great review. I'm glad you're enjoying them. Glad to hear the M's sound so good. X5's are likely my next speaker when the time is right...

I like that the X5s are considerably more compact than the M3 Sapphires and will probably have even better bass power thanks to being active and dsp.  The AMT driver should be considerably better and the vibration control should be better.  And the efficiency of the X5 really impresses me.  I think Clayton has the pricing spread out nicely offering a great value for each spot.  I would have gotten the X5 or X3 if I had the money.  Fortunately the M3 Sapphires still provide a very nice upgrade that I could afford for now.  I have two kids in college.  :o

Tomy2Tone

Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #7 on: 7 Nov 2019, 09:10 pm »
It would be interesting to hear what differences there are with the dome/ribbon tweeter in the X and M series. If its what one usually finds between them in box speakers or not.

Does the M3 sound like any speaker you've heard before with a dome tweeter?

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #8 on: 7 Nov 2019, 09:13 pm »
@SnowPuppy77

Thanks so much for your terrific/comprehensive review.  I find it extremely helpful as I consider a pair of M5 Sapphires for my small, dedicated listening room.

Thank you.  Based on what I am hearing from the ST15 woofer I am convinced that the M5 will have excellent quality bass and good power as well.  Perhaps you could get a sub down the road if you needed or wanted more power.  I am hoping Spatial releases on servo OB sub that goes down to 20 hz.  Would like it to have the same wood veneers so it would match veneer on your Sapphires.

And lastly, as much as I love the way the M3 looks I think the M5 may look even better.

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #9 on: 7 Nov 2019, 10:19 pm »
It would be interesting to hear what differences there are with the dome/ribbon tweeter in the X and M series. If its what one usually finds between them in box speakers or not.

Does the M3 sound like any speaker you've heard before with a dome tweeter?

Yes to me it does sound like a good dome tweeter that one would hear with a box speaker but in an environment which compared to some has less resonance to smear things.  And more coherence than typically found in a box speaker with single dome because of the very low cross over point.  Clayton can confirm but looks like the tweeters are connected to another baffle layer in order to isolate it from the bass energy.  There was certainly a lot invested into the better bass performance.  While these are Eminence woofers they are customized for Claytons OB application, you will see that the boxed version of this woofer costs more than twice as much as the boxed version of the woofer on the M3TM.  And the Jantzen inductors are better than what the M3TM had.  It seems like money was saved by having no crossover and using what I believe is probably a very good reasonably priced customized Tymphany Peerless Corundum 1.25” tweeter that has a very low cross over point made lower by ferrofluid cooling and perhaps other means. (Clayton can correct me if I am wrong on that).  When you look at the tweeter you can see that the surround is significantly larger than what is seen on other tweeters giving it a longer throw.  By direct wiring he is really getting the most out of the tweeter.  To me it all comes together to make something really remarkable in the under $5k category.

catluck

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #10 on: 9 Nov 2019, 03:22 pm »
Snow Pup,
Thank you  for taking the time to prepare such a thoughtful review.  Really enjoyed reading it. I do wonder how the high freq's compare with Clayton's last iteration of the TM's with the, what, M35(?) dipole tweeter - particularly in terms of resolution/transparency and, as noted, detail retrieval.  Having had fine, if not exotic, domes, i.e., Dynaudio Esotar D-330 and Seas Millenium Excel, these compression tweeters do seem to lack detail. Thus, I'm not surprised to hear the new Uniwave provides greater detail overall.  Still, as you noted, the slightly truncated sound stage (depth), is noteworthy (where depth has always been a prized artifact to my brain). But, given the apparent improvements in the bass and upper freq's it seems churlish to criticize this effort.  And I understand that your critique is not a criticism per se but, rather, observations (again, for which I am grateful).  So, I'll take your conclusion as a directive.  Time to contact Clayton, learn about the possible trade-in pricing and move forward. Thanks again for taking the time to help educate us about this new product.

bobh123

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #11 on: 11 Nov 2019, 03:51 am »
Hi SnowPuppy:  Thanks much for doing such an extensive & informative review based on your initial listening sessions.  Your thoughts are balanced and you clearly distinguish your impressions and opinions which is refreshing in a time of so many blogs being rants or biased toward the poster's favored solutions.  I look forward to receiving my M3 Sapphires and years of listening pleasure.  Bob

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #12 on: 11 Nov 2019, 02:19 pm »
Snow Pup,
Thank you  for taking the time to prepare such a thoughtful review.  Really enjoyed reading it. I do wonder how the high freq's compare with Clayton's last iteration of the TM's with the, what, M35(?) dipole tweeter - particularly in terms of resolution/transparency and, as noted, detail retrieval.  Having had fine, if not exotic, domes, i.e., Dynaudio Esotar D-330 and Seas Millenium Excel, these compression tweeters do seem to lack detail. Thus, I'm not surprised to hear the new Uniwave provides greater detail overall.  Still, as you noted, the slightly truncated sound stage (depth), is noteworthy (where depth has always been a prized artifact to my brain). But, given the apparent improvements in the bass and upper freq's it seems churlish to criticize this effort.  And I understand that your critique is not a criticism per se but, rather, observations (again, for which I am grateful).  So, I'll take your conclusion as a directive.  Time to contact Clayton, learn about the possible trade-in pricing and move forward. Thanks again for taking the time to help educate us about this new product.

Thank you for the kind words.  Part of the perception on depth could be the stage being wider and taller and thus relative to that.  While one might wonder if down the road Clayton will give us a dipolar Sapphire tweet/mid upgrade, I want to emphasize that it is not needed for the Sapphire to be an excellent speaker with an excellent stage. 

I do not want to be too hard on the M3TM as I had such a great time with them and respect them.  I did want more soundstage height with the M3TM.  Some is probably psychological with the tweeter below ear level.  My Paradigm Studio 100v2 before that had tweeters slightly above ear level.  Then there is my Dad's Magnepan 3.7i's which are almost 6 ft tall.  With the Sapphires there is no sense of restriction at all in soundstage height psychologically or otherwise. 

Back to depth of stage, I am starting to notice another level of break-in with the Sapphires which is bringing the stage more out into the room.  I like this development and will give more impressions later after some more investigation.

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #13 on: 11 Nov 2019, 02:25 pm »
Hi SnowPuppy:  Thanks much for doing such an extensive & informative review based on your initial listening sessions.  Your thoughts are balanced and you clearly distinguish your impressions and opinions which is refreshing in a time of so many blogs being rants or biased toward the poster's favored solutions.  I look forward to receiving my M3 Sapphires and years of listening pleasure.  Bob

Thanks you for the kind words.  Look forward to hearing your impressions and pics if you would.  I am particularly interested in seeing a pic of them in Maple.  That said look forward to pics in any finish because with the natural veneer each speaker will be unique.

jtnt

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #14 on: 13 Nov 2019, 11:04 pm »
We've had M3 Sapphires longer than anyone (I think we got the first pair), and even I found this review helpful and informative. Great stuff!

I commented to Clayton right away how easy the unboxing and setup was. And I've had to pack these up and take them out multiple times because of CAF!

~Nicholas from LTA

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #15 on: 14 Nov 2019, 03:33 am »
We've had M3 Sapphires longer than anyone (I think we got the first pair), and even I found this review helpful and informative. Great stuff!

I commented to Clayton right away how easy the unboxing and setup was. And I've had to pack these up and take them out multiple times because of CAF!

~Nicholas from LTA

Thank you Nicolas.  It is a paradigm shift for me to embrace the idea of a low power amp for even a 92db speaker.
 However the good reports from CAF are pretty convincing that your 12 watt Z10 drives the M3 Sapphires very effectively.  Keeping you on the short list for sure.  Have kids in college and as soon as that is covered the wife knows I plan to do further upgrades. An amplifier upgrade is next in about 2-3 years.  Plan to go to the next RMAF with my Dad.  If any of your gear is there I will be stopping by.

rich2ch

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #16 on: 17 Nov 2019, 01:16 pm »
How would you compare the new M3 Sapphire to the old M3 in terms of dynamics, particularly in the midrange? Also, how do you like the new M3 for low level late night listening?

Thanks,

rich2ch

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #17 on: 17 Nov 2019, 03:10 pm »
How would you compare the new M3 Sapphire to the old M3 in terms of dynamics, particularly in the midrange? Also, how do you like the new M3 for low level late night listening?

Thanks,

rich2ch
  Dynamics is a strength of the M3TM for sure.  Especially macro dynamics.  I would say mid-range macro dynamics are probably as good as the M3 Sapphire.  Compression drivers are good at that.  I think the Sapphire levels the playing field by having the mid direct wired with no crossover.  When I listen to vocals like Monteverdi, do not like opera but love Monteverdi, the M3 Sapphire does seem to show levels of dynamics or micro dynamics more.  And when the choir decides to join in a powerful gestalt the Sapphires have more impact in the surprise factor and emotionally. 

Regarding low level late night listening I like the M3 Sapphire even better.  That is because the bass comes alive more.  That nice meaty thump of the new M series woofer gives a better foundation at lower volumes.  The bass line from The Door Riders on the Storm is a good example.  Also with less roll off in the high frequencies and some more detail, more information comes across at lower volumes.  Overall I am finding that I do not play the Sapphire as loud as often because it comes alive sooner.

Audiosaurusrex

Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #18 on: 21 Nov 2019, 12:39 pm »
Hi Everyone,
After months of reading and researching  I finally pulled the trigger on the M3's. I'm so excited I couldnt sleep. Clayton tells me that it will be like night and day compared to my Vandersteen 2ce's. I am hoping for an amazing experience. I have to thank all of you especially snowpuppy for their insights. Hopefully I may get them before the holidays  :D
Rene

SnowPuppy77

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Re: M3 Sapphires Compared to M3TM (early impressions)
« Reply #19 on: 21 Nov 2019, 01:59 pm »
Hi Everyone,
After months of reading and researching  I finally pulled the trigger on the M3's. I'm so excited I couldnt sleep. Clayton tells me that it will be like night and day compared to my Vandersteen 2ce's. I am hoping for an amazing experience. I have to thank all of you especially snowpuppy for their insights. Hopefully I may get them before the holidays  :D
Rene
Hope they give you a nice upgrade.  Look forward to hearing your impressions as they settle in.  What finish did you get?