[77SunsetStrip]

All the detailed and complex Math and Physics Galen Gareis documented regarding cable design clearly debunks the oversimplified claims that only R matters with L and C almost completely ignored.  No issue with happy users of lamp cord in their systems.  Same for happy users of their chosen cable type. 

Don't simply accept the claim different cables with the same R must sound the same.  Try for yourself, be your own judge if you can hear a difference.  Not trying for yourself based on others claims (for or against) is not being a skeptic, it is keeping yourself uninformed.

[aceinc]

I have not watched this, but from what others have said it is something cable skeptics should

https://alpha-audio.net/review/megatest-speaker-cables-real-measurements-samples-and-blind-test/

I read through the article skipping the details on each cable. It seems quite convincing that these two people heard differences. I wish there was a bit more explanation of how the blind tests were performed.

I have mentally explored how I would do a blind test of audio gear. It involves an acoustically transparent scrim between the audio equipment and the listeners.

I would also prefer a bit more of a sample of people involved in the listening tests. The same test should probably be run on multiple days with the order of the cables switched. Perhaps fewer cables, to reduce listener fatigue.

The article achieved one of its goals which is to inspire me to keep searching for a difference.

[Tyson]

I read through the article skipping the details on each cable. It seems quite convincing that these two people heard differences. I wish there was a bit more explanation of how the blind tests were performed.

I have mentally explored how I would do a blind test of audio gear. It involves an acoustically transparent scrim between the audio equipment and the listeners.

I would also prefer a bit more of a sample of people involved in the listening tests. The same test should probably be run on multiple days with the order of the cables switched. Perhaps fewer cables, to reduce listener fatigue.

The article achieved one of its goals which is to inspire me to keep searching for a difference.

Why not just try it out in your own system?  You'll either hear a difference, or you won't.  It's simple.

[corndog71]

All the detailed and complex Math and Physics Galen Gareis documented regarding cable design clearly debunks the oversimplified claims that only R matters with L and C almost completely ignored.  No issue with happy users of lamp cord in their systems.  Same for happy users of their chosen cable type. 

Don't simply accept the claim different cables with the same R must sound the same.  Try for yourself, be your own judge if you can hear a difference.  Not trying for yourself based on others claims (for or against) is not being a skeptic, it is keeping yourself uninformed.

I asked Galen why zip cord is bad for audio.  Here’s his response:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/belden-iconoclast-interconnects-and-speaker-cabling/2038/3352

[Cheytak.408]

Resistance... And reactance... And capacitance... Across differing frequencies...

...dielectric absorption, dissipation factor (capacitive aspect) - these effect ringing in the signal.  VoP is essentially a non-issue at audio frequencies.  Less important is DCR.  More important are overall AC reactance products.  Poor terminations are SWR generators.  It ain't simplistic LCR folks.  Conductivity is also important.  I took the old "use a coat hanger and it'll sound the same".  Peter Aczel was insane, delusional or deaf.

I determined what kind of solder I used by making short interconnects out of various solders and listened to them.  Try it.  It is mind blowing 🤯

[PE]

Resistance... And reactance... And capacitance... Across differing frequencies...

Based on my limited understanding:

R only impacts power loss and attenuates all frequencies equally, for the most part. It has 0 phase shift
L attenuates linearly with frequency: Xl = 2 Pi f L j.  It has a 90 deg phase shift, lagging (I lags V)
C and L are inversely proportional, Xc = 1/(2 Pi f C j), 90 deg shift, leading

L is in series (like R) and C in //. It can be thought of as a component of the insulation or dielectric strength.  imo C has little impact at power or speaker level signals.  Line and phono more of a factor.

[MisterP007]

I have not found a difference, and many people indicate a difference should be found, if not with these cables, with some cables.

Since I am too cheap to purchase Danny's cables, which are not terribly expensive based on some of the astronomical prices I have seen, I will attempt a DIY speaker cable build.

My thought on the design of the cables has to do with material availability. I have access to Teflon coated Category 6 Ethernet cable used for in wall office networks which is the cable I am considering.

I will braid 4 cables yielding 32 individual strands. Each cable has 8 wires (4 pairs), each pair is twisted white/color & color/white. I will gather all white/color wires for one conductor, and all color/white for the other.

My thought on connectors are https://www.parts-express.com/Expanding-Banana-Plug-with-Dual-Set-Screws-and-Carbon-Fiber-091-3614 although these are a bit pricey. I am open to recommendations for connectors. I do not have the ability to use "Tube Connectors" as far as I know. My equipment all has N-way binding posts.

Should cables designed thus have a discernible audio signature different from my current 12 gauge zip cord set up?

Hi Aceinc,

I am a newbie here but have experience of the braided cable route. Mine are 6 x CAT6 cables braided together with conductors spilt as you describe to terminate. This was a design by TNT Audio for DIY production. The cost next to nothing to produce (apart from blistered fingers from the braiding and a lot of very bad words!). I swapped out standard 79 strand copper cables for these and the difference in all areas of the sound is very noticeable.

Drop me aline if you want some photos links etc.

[PE]

Total end-to-end resistance is the controlling variable in a speaker cable.
total 'L' only matters with loudspeakers that have very low high frequency impedance. (think Apogee)

It is too difficult to look at the cable and speaker as a system.  The speaker Z (|Z| / deg ) is too complex.
imo the speaker magnitude is >>>> cable so in reality R, L or C have little impact due to the speakers varying Z magnitude and phase shift in magnitude and lead/lag (C reactance and L reactance).
For most standard cable configurations if you lower R by // conductors the resultant L will be low (and C high).

My speaker 2 to 10 kHz:
18 to 7 Ohm
-20 to -30 (Xc leading)
Form: 7/-20 = |Z| ohm / phase degrees a phasor)
At 10 kHz 7/-30

My cable:
R 0.05
Xl 0.19
Xc 78e6 (in // so Xl prevails)

Z = sqrt(0.05^2 + 0.19^2) = 0.2
Phase = arctan(0.19/0.05) = 75 deg

Speaker + cable in series:
7/-30+ 0.2/75 = 6.95/-28.4

imo cable has little influence.
With a lower speaker Z it will have more (obviously) but still small in relation.

[Speedskater]

In a multi-driver loudspeaker, the impedance continually changes with frequency. Except as noted above, the cable can be considered mostly 'R'.
Think of it as a series circuit, with the speaker impedance changing and the cable 'R' staying the same at different frequencies.
* * * * * * * * *
you have to consider the speaker impedance at different frequencies.
* * * * * * * * *
where is the { 2 pi f } at different frequencies in your formulas?

[PE]

In a multi-driver loudspeaker, the impedance continually changes with frequency. Except as noted above, the cable can be considered mostly 'R'.
Think of it as a series circuit, with the speaker impedance changing and the cable 'R' staying the same at different frequencies.
* * * * * * * * *
you have to consider the speaker impedance at different frequencies.
* * * * * * * * *
where is the { 2 pi f } at different frequencies in your formulas?

I only looked at spot frequencies, since for the range I looked at it is linear (no xover).
To do a full analysis you need matlab or something and input the speaker Z curve which is complex.

In my case, cable 20 Hz to 20 kHz
Z ~ 0.05 to 0,38 Ohm, phase 0 to 82 deg

Speaker ranges from 6 to 20 Ohm +/- 40 deg
Cable has little impact

You could look at worst cases
Speaker min/max low f and same for high f vs cable at those points..
But still the cable has little impact electrically

In some regions a piecewise linear analysis may suffice
Using octaves since log (you could convert but this illustrates more clearly imho)
2-10 k, 2.25 Oct
Z = -4 x fo + 18
at oct or 4 kHz
Z = -4 x 1 + 18 = 14, graph ~14, so close

[adminRH]

Peter Aczel was insane, delusional or deaf.

^ Don't do this

[aceinc]

I spent a little time this evening adjusting my living room so that I could move my Maggies another 10"-12" into the room. They are now about 52" off the front wall with a pair of OB subs sitting to the outside of them. This seems to have helped the sound stage. I will need to tweak my subs (all 5) for overall balance.  My belief is tweaking speaker locations and sub balancing is more important than cables. I haven't done this before because things sounded OK, aesthetics and I'm lazy.

Once I optimize these items I feel cable change sound differences will become more apparent if there is a difference to be heard.

A note about my system when running in "2 channel." I have two Maggie 2.7s, two GR Research 12" W baffle subs hooked in parallel to the Maggies, one Rythmic Audio 15" DIY sealed sub, and two DIY  sealed 10" Dayton Titanics driven by a Crown amp with DSP. It takes a bit to dial all the subs in. These last 3 subs are running off of the sub out on the AV7704. The purpose of the additional 3 subs is to balance the bass via the "sub swarm" technique. I occasionally run things with no subs and different sub configurations, especially when dialing things in.