AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: James Tanner on 2 Apr 2011, 02:15 pm
-
Hi Folks,
Playing around with the ESS Sabre 32 DAC this weekend.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=45013)
james
-
I had the same demo board. The ESS Sabre Dacs sound really good.
What are you finding?
-
I had the same demo board. The ESS Sabre Dacs sound really good.
What are you finding?
Hi Bill
So far I can not get it to decode above 96K native files :scratch:
James
-
Do youplan on trying the new AKM 4399( 32 bit) ? Many feel this is the best chip out there right now.
-
Now that would be an excellent addition to the BDP-1! 8)
-
Do youplan on trying the new AKM 4399( 32 bit) ? Many feel this is the best chip out there right now.
Hi,
Yes trying as many as I can but so far I'm finding that the DAC's these days from many companies are so good relative to each other that the power supply, impedance matching, discrete op amps and grounding issues etc. seem to matter much more than the particular DAC chosen.
For instance on the ESS running it in current mode vs voltage mode makes a difference in performance specs.
james
-
That is a great DAC chip James. However, what you do with it separates it from the rest.
-
That is a great DAC chip James. However, what you do with it separates it from the rest.
Hi Levi,
Yes I find that to be true of most of them.
james
-
Hello James,
My recently purchased Oppo BDP-95 has the ESS Sabre 32. I use the balanced outputs to my BP25>3B SST and it sounds much better than my previous USB music streamer. It sounds even better directly hooked up to my amp with the pre-amp bypassed, but only at louder volumes using the Oppo volume controls. The pre-amp gives better control, and makes it sound good even at lower volume levels.
-
Two well known CD players are currently using these DACs. The Mac MCD-500 uses the ESS Sabre and the Esoteric SA-50 uses the AKM although I think it's the 4392, still 32 bit. Both have digital ins. In fairness to the BCD-1 it's less than half the price of these two players so you can't expect James to build them into the BCD-1 and give external access to them without uping the ante.
If you can do it James, you are the man! :thumb:
-
Hi Folks,
Just an update - we are looking at the measurements of the Sabre 32 DAC and the noise floor is a little better but the jitter numbers are identical to what we are currently getting with the BDP-1.
Time for a blind test listen :thumb:
james
-
oooOOOooohhh... Sounds ecxellent!
I can hardly wait for the BDP-2 with RCA and XLR connectors!!!
-
oooOOOooohhh... Sounds ecxellent!
I can hardly wait for the BDP-2 with RCA and XLR connectors!!!
NOT - I REPEAT .. NOT going to happen :thumb:
james
-
I think it would quadruple sales... Probably even more...
-
I think it would quadruple sales... Probably even more...
i really think a dedicated digital preamp would be the better option. :)
james
-
I am not in the position to question the Bryston company policy. But I do think you are missing out on a reasonably big market here.
I will not buy the BDP because I need to spend double the money to get it working. I have heard it recently, I am VERY impressed by it. But the lack of DAC is what stops me from buying it and what makes me look at other options, ones that do come with a DAC, and with the quality I expect to get from a piece of audio equipment I spend my money on. Also the fact that one needs a third party remote (in whatever way, shape or form) to control the device makes me raise an eyebrow.
I spent a shitload of money on an analog pre amp, one that *is* considerably better than the BP26 and gets more out of my 4B SST2 than the BP26 ever will, as you hopefully do know. I also spent a consideable amount of money on a CD player, the Marantz SA KI Pearl is more expensive than the BCD. I would also spend that amount of money on the BDP-2 IF it came as a complete device, with a DAC.
I know of at least 7 or 8 other people that have the same opinion, some even here on the Bryston section of the board.
-
Adding a DAC in it does not make it cheaper. It would be 2x the price. Having an option of a different DAC gives you...FLEXIBILITY. :thumb:
I am truly interested on what Bryston can do on the 32bit Sabre chip.
-
Adding a DAC in it does not make it cheaper. It would be 2x the price. Having an option of a different DAC gives you...FLEXIBILITY. :thumb:
I am truly interested on what Bryston can do on the 32bit Sabre chip.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE - "you can not just add a DAC" and get the same performance.
james
-
I am not in the position to question the Bryston company policy. But I do think you are missing out on a reasonably big market here.
I will not buy the BDP because I need to spend double the money to get it working. I have heard it recently, I am VERY impressed by it. But the lack of DAC is what stops me from buying it and what makes me look at other options, ones that do come with a DAC, and with the quality I expect to get from a piece of audio equipment I spend my money on. Also the fact that one needs a third party remote (in whatever way, shape or form) to control the device makes me raise an eyebrow.
I spent a shitload of money on an analog pre amp, one that *is* considerably better than the BP26 and gets more out of my 4B SST2 than the BP26 ever will, as you hopefully do know. I also spent a consideable amount of money on a CD player, the Marantz SA KI Pearl is more expensive than the BCD. I would also spend that amount of money on the BDP-2 IF it came as a complete device, with a DAC.
I know of at least 7 or 8 other people that have the same opinion, some even here on the Bryston section of the board.
I agree 100% and this is what keeps me away from the BDP-1.....however i also understand that Bryston just cant "Throw a Dac in it" and get the same quality sound one would get with the BDA-1 outboard Dac..............but when i add the price of the 2 of them=$4300......at this point i would lean towards the Olive 06HD Audiophile Model(•Dedicated TI 192khz/24-bit Burr- Brown PCM1792
•TI's top-of the line TPA6120A2 High Performance Audio Amplifier (current-feedback architecture),•Ultra-quiet 2TB AV hard drive
•Holds almost 20,000 HD tracks or
6,000 CDs in original quality
•Cushioned in 8 layers of noise cancelling
padding,•High fidelity TEAC CDRW mechanism
•Import: Audio CDs
•Burn: Audio CDs, MP3 CDs, Data CDs,•Analog Output:
- 1x XLR (balanced), made by Neutrik
- 1x RCA, (24k gold-plated)
- 1x Headphone, stereo, 6.4 mm
•Digital Output:
- 1x AES/EBU (balanced), made by Neutrik
- 1x S/P DIF optical Toslink,
- 1x S/P DIF coaxial cinch, 24k gold-plated
•Bit rate: 16-bit, 20-bit, 24-bit
• Sampling Frequency: 10kHz up to
200kHz
•WAV, FLAC, MP3 (128 and 320 kbit/s),
AAC (128 kbit/s)
Personally for the price of $4999 and what the Olive O6HD does is amazing and offers far more features and connections then BDP-1.....its more expensive,but i think you get so much more......i have not heard the Olive O6HD yet.....so i cannot make an opinion on how it sounds,but it looks amazing on paper..........ive heard the BDP-1 mated with the BDA-1 and it was decent,but in Blind A/B tests i was able to pick the BCD-1 CDP 8 times out of 10 ....i still rather a CDP and its sound.......i dont think the BDP-1 is refined enough yet.....either that or pair the BDP-1 with a better Dac then brystons own BDA-1....but of course then the price will rise again.............oh hell......."Long Live the CD"~!!!! LOL :green:
-
Since the Olive's backups are encrypted can you even access the files that it rips? Guessing not. The Olive is too CD focused for my tastes, if they would offer one without the CD-drive and user expandable storage then I probably would have considered it. Having the DAC internal is one less item to worry about but there are several outboard DACs that amazing along with several good pre-amps offer integrated DACs as well, so this isn't a huge selling point. It's probably fair to say that the BDP isn't as refined as the Olive (how many generations now?), but the heart is there just a few more software tweaks and along with a user serviceable HDD enclosure and it's along ways there. Perhaps even offer a software solution for Windows and Macs to sync your files to attahed HDDs to bring it up one more notch.
-
i really think a dedicated digital preamp would be the better option. :)
james
What is this "digital preamp" you speak of? Is this a new product concept you are developing? As you noted in another thread, the BDA-1 can accept multiple digtal inputs and form the heart of an all digital system. Thats how I use it. Problem is it requires the use of an attenuator to work as a stand alone "preamp". What srt of functionality will this Sabre preamp have? Spill the beans! :idea:
-
What is this "digital preamp" you speak of? Is this a new product concept you are developing? As you noted in another thread, the BDA-1 can accept multiple digtal inputs and form the heart of an all digital system. Thats how I use it. Problem is it requires the use of an attenuator to work as a stand alone "preamp". What srt of functionality will this Sabre preamp have? Spill the beans! :idea:
Hi konut,
Just an idea I had at this point but I was thinking a digital preamp might be a good product going forward. it would be a sort of BP-26 / BDA-1 combination in one chassis?
james
-
Hi konut,
Just an idea I had at this point but I was thinking a digital preamp might be a good product going forward. it would be a sort of BP-26 / BDA-1 combination in one chassis?
james
Hi James,
Interesting idea. Would it be possible to upgrade the current internal DAC so it could use the ESS Sabre chip?
Cheers,
John
-
Hi James,
Interesting idea. Would it be possible to upgrade the current internal DAC so it could use the ESS Sabre chip?
Cheers,
John
No and I am not sure the chip differences will make that much of a difference.
As I have said many times the small differences in performance between chip A and chip B are swamped by the considerations you have to give to power supply, impedance matching connections, circuit path routing, grounding issues, discrete amplifications circuits, voltage vs current operating modes etc.
james
-
Hi konut,
Just an idea I had at this point but I was thinking a digital preamp might be a good product going forward. it would be a sort of BP-26 / BDA-1 combination in one chassis?
james
Personally, I would be reluctant to buy a digital preamp( not saying I wouldn't buy it but I would cetainly be more hesitant) . Also( not to complain BUT) I was going to order the Bryston digital player but to my surprise when I looked at a picture of the rear panel I did not see a usb or firewire output.Is this correct or did I miss something? If this is the case Bryston REALLY LIMITED the market for this player( IMO).
-
Personally, I would be reluctant to buy a digital preamp( not saying I wouldn't buy it but I would cetainly be more hesitant) . Also( not to complain BUT) I was going to order the Bryston digital player but to my surprise when I looked at a picture of the rear panel I did not see a usb or firewire output.Is this correct or did I miss something? If this is the case Bryston REALLY LIMITED the market for this player( IMO).
Hi
The AES Digital is the best connection so anything less was not something we wanted to do. We offered the BNC connector for those DAC's that do not have the preferred AES connection like our BDA-1 DAC. Also firewire is not getting much support now.
James
-
Hi
The AES Digital is the best connection so anything less was not something we wanted to do. We offered the BNC connector for those DAC's that do not have the preferred AES connection like our BDA-1 DAC. Also firewire is not getting much support now.
James
I would ditch the bnc and put in an rca or include and rca with the bnc to make 3.
-
I would ditch the bnc and put in an rca or include and rca with the bnc to make 3.
Na - you want BNC because it is a true 75 ohm connection. :thumb:
As I have said before digital signals operate at very high frequencies and "ANY" impedance mismatch will cause signal reflection and loss of information.
james
-
Na - you want BNC because it is a true 75 ohm connection. :thumb:
As I have said before digital signals operate at very high frequencies and "ANY" impedance mismatch will cause signal reflection and loss of information.
james
Thats too theoretical, there is not enough bnc out there. Way more rca to choose from. There are far more better rca than bnc cable available. You should stick with the rca and xlr imo.
-
Thats too theoretical, there is not enough bnc out there. Way more rca to choose from. There are far more better rca than bnc cable available. You should stick with the rca and xlr imo.
Na - we do it the right way :thumb:
james
-
Na - we do it the right way :thumb:
james
Na- the right way is doing it my way. :D
-
Na- the right way is doing it my way. :D
Sorry lost my head there for a minute :lol:
james
-
I tell you what James. I have been back and forth at Pulsworks here in Saskatoon. There he is using a pair of 28's sst/dali 400 or PMC ob1s. It doesn't matter what speaker. His system is twice the price with the cost of speakers and amps. His system is using stock power cabling and he uses his home made xlr or a straightwire bnc.
My system at home is tweaked in cabling with a torus rm20 balanced. My system at half the price knocks the socks off his since the cabling and lack of Torus (just recently someone came in and bought the floor torus) is cable tuned. His system is ok by mine is James Brown. Mine has got so much pick up and go its just leaves that system in the dust with a 14B. It got way worse without the Torus and its much like the Mcintosh sitting on the other wall....lol
The bdp and bda are very cable sensitive and changes the presentation - it really is night and day.
-
The bdp and bda are very cable sensitive and changes the presentation - it really is night and day.
Werd, what would you say is the difference in sound between the BDP-1 and BCD-1 playing 44.1 16 bit wav?
As well, I don't think I would hear a difference in cables, especially in a system I was unfamiliar with, like I wouldn't know if I should attribute a difference to cable or something else. If I were to switch cables in my own system I might be able to tell.
As far as speaker wire goes I have to stick with plain 14 gauge. I would need about 250-300' and would rather put money toward a positive improvement such as the BDP-1 where I definitely hear a difference over expensive cables that I may or may not hear improved sound quality. :smoke:
-
I'd be curious as to the differences as well in the same system with the same cables playing CD quality lossless material
-
Ab Sound reviews Pereauex integrated with a ESS dac on board
-
Werd, what would you say is the difference in sound between the BDP-1 and BCD-1 playing 44.1 16 bit wav?
As well, I don't think I would hear a difference in cables, especially in a system I was unfamiliar with, like I wouldn't know if I should attribute a difference to cable or something else. If I were to switch cables in my own system I might be able to tell.
As far as speaker wire goes I have to stick with plain 14 gauge. I would need about 250-300' and would rather put money toward a positive improvement such as the BDP-1 where I definitely hear a difference over expensive cables that I may or may not hear improved sound quality. :smoke:
Bring over your bcd and we will check it out. I haven't heard a bcd in this system for awhile. The bdp seems smoother than the bcd and just gets moves along in an effortless way. The bcd has to work at it. I have given up on cd....don't think i will ever play another one.
-
I'd be curious as to the differences as well in the same system with the same cables playing CD quality lossless material
Cabling is about vibe for me. Either it gets the beats down or it doesn't as well as other cables. The bdp/bda (and i suspect all file driven front ends are the same). They respond better to cabling from what i can tell than the cd playback systems.
People think its easy to cable a system. Its not, i know it would take awhile to get a full out Mcintosh system cabled. I wouldn't know where to start. I have my system pegged but other systems i would have to start from scratch. I am just finding everything that i like about sound comes from tinkering with the source. All the vibe and resolution can be focused on cabling,AC conditioning and isolation in and around the dac and computer adaptors like the bdp. So to answer the question... yes there are differences and its probably because lossless material is a better medium thus better at tweaking.
-
it would be a sort of BP-26 / BDA-1 combination in one chassis?
Hmm... So... Why is it possible to add this DAC to an amplifier and not to the BDP? I don't see how it would be any different. Digital input on one side, analog output on the other side, I don't think it matters whether this happens in the BDP or in an amp.
So, add it to the BDP, create a product more people will be interested in, realize more sales.
Or add more output options. Like optical, firewire, RCA, USB, ect. My CD player has an optical input, if the BDP had an optical out I'd buy it.
-
Hmm... So... Why is it possible to add this DAC to an amplifier and not to the BDP? I don't see how it would be any different. Digital input on one side, analog output on the other side, I don't think it matters whether this happens in the BDP or in an amp.
So, add it to the BDP, create a product more people will be interested in, realize more sales.
Or add more output options. Like optical, firewire, RCA, USB, ect. My CD player has an optical input, if the BDP had an optical out I'd buy it.
Hi
I guess the point I want to make is you do not 'just add' a connector or a feature to a product (especially after it already is in the market). Every time you add circuitry or connections you affect other aspects of the design. Our philosophy has always been to optimize signal transfer from point A to point B. Others may prefer the Swiss army knife approach but it is not something Bryston has an interest in.
Sometimes it is not about 'sales' it's about what gives the best performance. Fortunately for me I own the company so I can do it my way :thumb:
James
-
Point taken.
From now on I will refrain from commenting on the BDP, as it is not a device for me.
Shame.
-
Point taken.
From now on I will refrain from commenting on the BDP, as it is not a device for me.
Shame.
Totally understand :D
James
-
Bring over your bcd and we will check it out. I haven't heard a bcd in this system for awhile. The bdp seems smoother than the bcd and just gets moves along in an effortless way. The bcd has to work at it. I have given up on cd....don't think i will ever play another one.
I no longer have the BCD-1, maybe I'll bring my Sony NS9100ES and see if the BDP-1/BDA-1 betters the Sony/BDA-1 combo. Looking forward to hearing your system again.
After you hear my upgraded MC system, you'll be kicking your 2 channel rig to the curb. :P
-
Na - we do it the right way :thumb:
james
That is the only way to do it :thumb:
The pecking order of connections is audible, nothing too theoretical about it.
-
That is the only way to do it :thumb:
The pecking order of connections is audible, nothing too theoretical about it.
Yah.... lets build a sound system on theoretics alone...yah. :thumb:.
Laundrew throw a little scot on that will ya.
-
Laundrew throw a little scot on that will ya.
How about a big Scot?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=45497)
:P :D
Be well...
-
...lovely guy :thumb:
al.
-
How about a big Scot?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=45497)
:P :D
Be well...
Well just so long as you're happy.... :wink:
-
Yah.... lets build a sound system on theoretics alone...yah. :thumb:.
Laundrew throw a little scot on that will ya.
Well, if you like performance of Bryston gear than there’s got to be something in all of that theory, would you not agree? :D
And speaking of cabling, more than one “theorist” states that balanced connections (when implemented correctly of course), are far less cable dependent than single ended. I bought into this theory as well and it does have validation in what I hear.
-
Well, if you like performance of Bryston gear than there’s got to be something in all of that theory, would you not agree? :D
And speaking of cabling, more than one “theorist” states that balanced connections (when implemented correctly of course), are far less cable dependent than single ended. I bought into this theory as well and it does have validation in what I hear.
I agree that there is a consistency in xlr that bumps up the performance. Rca you have to rummage through the lot but the good ones are pretty juicy and seem to give better prat than any xlr i can find.
-
someone say Scott.....
(http://images.discounthalloweencostumes.com/sexy-scottish-girl.jpg)
-
Sometimes it is not about 'sales' it's about what gives the best performance. Fortunately for me I own the company so I can do it my way :thumb:
James
It's good to be king ! :D :wink:
D.D.