[Rclark]

I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

[SteveFord]

We'll see.

[roscoeiii]

I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

C'mon, let's not go overboard with "taken over and is superior" since that gives the impressions that one size fits all in terms of speaker matching and personal preference.

But I would say that this suggests that it shows further proof that some Class D models can provide excellent sound, as well as tremendous bang for your buck.

But with amps, as with much other gear, YMMV.

And based on RMAF and AXPONA, I certainly wouldn't say that digital is replacing vinyl. Both are very well represented. And I think it is also very safe to say that we are in the midst of a vinyl renaissance. From what I can tell, the recent mono Beatles set on vinyl seems to be preferred to the mono CD set. But let's please not get sidetracked into a vinyl vs digital sources discussion in an amp thread.

[OzarkTom]

I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

Crown came out with this one 4 1/2 years ago, way before the Ncores.

[OzarkTom]

The iTube that OzarkTom uses may also be a great bet, since he is raving about it. Though you'd need an input selector if you need multiple inputs.

No personal experience with it myself, but a lot going for it. And a lot of places that you could get one to audition. Or who offer a solid return policy.

The Cryoman compared the cryo'd Itube to a stock Dodd tube preamp. The Itube was much better. Only after he cryo'd the Dodd, did the Dodd came fairly close to the Itube. That says quite a bit about the SQ of the Itube at it's price.

[roscoeiii]

The Cryoman compared the cryo'd Itube to a stock Dodd tube preamp. The Itube was much better. Only after he cryo'd the Dodd, did the Dodd came fairly close to the Itube. That says quite a bit about the SQ of the Itube at it's price.

Tom, would you say that the iTube makes the Crown a bit more laid back or a bit less forward? I'm trying to get an idea of its contribution in your system...

[S Clark]

I'm on the list to take a listen to hear what Crown is all about.  I'll be comparing it to tube amps and a Moscode 401. I've heard an NCore 400 and spent many hours with the Rogue Sphinx (Ncore 180 ?)... and I haven't sold my other amps to jump on the Ncore wagon. 

[S Clark]

The Cryoman compared the cryo'd Itube to a stock Dodd tube preamp. The Itube was much better. Only after he cryo'd the Dodd, did the Dodd came fairly close to the Itube. That says quite a bit about the SQ of the Itube at it's price.

Now that's a stunning statement... especially since the Dodd was THE latest and greatest giant killer at $3300 five or six years ago!

[WireNut]

Learn me something.
How can a Crown XLS amp at 11-12 pounds out preform my Audio Research 150.2 class T amp at 45 pounds in the bass region from 150Hz down to 20hz.
My audio research 150.2 amp had the best bottom end I've heard in 30 years of swopping power amps.

Had to sell the 150.2 recently due to job layoff.
When I get back on my feet I might buy a XLS2500 for my bass cabinets.
At $550.00 for a 2500, if it does the job on the low end that's really all I need.

Don't have the funds anymore to spend 2-3k for an amp to drive my bass cabs.

Will an XLS deliver on the bottom end 






 

[Quiet Earth]

...and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows

Last summer,at the California Audio show, a friend and I asked several of the exibitors why they were playing computer audio files rather than vinyl or a good sounding CD player. The answer was always "because it is more convenient", not because it sounds better.

[dlaloum]

Will an XLS deliver on the bottom end 

It does on my Gallo Ref 3.2's. (goes down to a real 24Hz)

There was some discussion on AVSforum about there being a rolloff below 20Hz - but there was nothing definitive, no measurements etc... and there were people arguing both ways... in any case concensus on that forum seemed to be that there was plenty of grunt even down below 20Hz, with quite a few Home Theater bass freaks buying "fleets" of the XLS's to run an astounding number of subwoofers (like 16 subs in a single room) - with the objective of achieving 10Hz at full spl capability.

From my own experience and measurements - the XLS2500 just keeps on giving regardless of speaker impedance (or capacitance) and the power doubles down (or close to it) to 4ohm and again into 2ohm (no published spec for 1 ohm, and I have seen no measurements).

Wary audiophiles have been using this series to drive their subs for the last 4 years, adventurous ones then experimented with them in the mids / full range, I am running them as my main amps, with one for woofer and the other for full range, and my results are superior to anything else I have tried with these speakers.

If you are geographically close enough to get on the trial chain for the XLS1500 - you should hop onto that list and have a listen, if not you may need to spend the money and get one to try, like I did.
At used pricing, you won't lose money on the deal if you choose to sell it again - and with a 3 year transferable warranty, most of the used units are still covered - so there is little risk.

[rajacat]

Last summer,at the California Audio show, a friend and I asked several of the exibitors why they were playing computer audio files rather than vinyl or a good sounding CD player. The answer was always "because it is more convenient", not because it sounds better.

Computer files should sound better than most CD players because there's no spinning disk with laser that contributes to distortion.

[Quiet Earth]

They should, but they don't.

[dlaloum]

They should, but they don't.

They sound just as good if you put effort into getting the source right - making sure there are no power issues/noise, or using a DAC that properly reclocks and is high quality...
Running from a stock PC and sound card is never going to do the job...

[Tomy2Tone]

It does on my Gallo Ref 3.2's. (goes down to a real 24Hz)

There was some discussion on AVSforum about there being a rolloff below 20Hz - but there was nothing definitive, no measurements etc... and there were people arguing both ways... in any case concensus on that forum seemed to be that there was plenty of grunt even down below 20Hz, with quite a few Home Theater bass freaks buying "fleets" of the XLS's to run an astounding number of subwoofers (like 16 subs in a single room) - with the objective of achieving 10Hz at full spl capability.

From my own experience and measurements - the XLS2500 just keeps on giving regardless of speaker impedance (or capacitance) and the power doubles down (or close to it) to 4ohm and again into 2ohm (no published spec for 1 ohm, and I have seen no measurements).

Wary audiophiles have been using this series to drive their subs for the last 4 years, adventurous ones then experimented with them in the mids / full range, I am running them as my main amps, with one for woofer and the other for full range, and my results are superior to anything else I have tried with these speakers.

If you are geographically close enough to get on the trial chain for the XLS1500 - you should hop onto that list and have a listen, if not you may need to spend the money and get one to try, like I did.
At used pricing, you won't lose money on the deal if you choose to sell it again - and with a 3 year transferable warranty, most of the used units are still covered - so there is little risk.

Hi David, what do you use as a preamp in your system? Biamping the way you do has me intrigued. I have some new speakers coming in a couple of months and they will have the ability to be biamped.

Also, have you ever tried using your 2500's as monos with jumper cables at your speaker binding posts? This was going to be my first attempt when the new speakers arrive but biamping sounds possible as well. I've always read that biamping doesn't perform any better but maybe it depends on the speaker and the amp involved. Thanks!
-Tom

[S Clark]

They should, but they don't.

Regarding files compared to the original cd...
Mine do.  Using a MS-1 from our fellow member HAL, it's quite clear that the file plays better than the cd... for me.

[dlaloum]

Biamping done right requires the crossover to be before the power amp - so the power amps are then only amplifying the part of the spectrum they need to.

Just doing two amps in parallel both doing full range and feeding it to the speaker doesn't do much!

The XLS series has an onboard configurable crossover, so you can feed both amps the full range signal and then configure one with a Low Pass filter and the other with a High Pass filter - set the respective filters to the right frequency for your woofer crossover and you are on your way!

Currently they are feeding off the pre-out of my Onkyo TX-SR876 Receiver.

I have also run them directly of my Mytek Stereo96 DAC.

Either way, the XLS is set up to allow "daisy chaining" you can feed the signal into the first then daisy chain down to the second.

I run into the XLR inputs on the first which is my full range power amp, and then use custom 1/4" jack cables to daisy chain down to the second XLS which runs the woofers.

NOTE: the Gallo Ref 3 speakers are designed to be run full range on the standard input, and have a second voice coil input for the woofer - so the woofer driver receives the post crossover signal from the standard input of the speaker, in addition to the seperately powered signal applied to the 2nd voice coil.
It is an unusual design!

I have done some experiments with standard biamping, (ie running the first amp crossed over rather than full range), with inconclusive results.

The speakers designer recommended running the amps in stereo mode, and not to bridge the amps, He also stated that the 2nd voice coil drive with the full range main is the best way to run them (who am I to argue !).

Setup is as easy as it can get for biamping, as it only takes a few seconds to set the crossovers on the front of the amps, and as long as you have the right cables for daisy chaining, all you need is a standard stereo input.

According to the Crown tech I talked to, all the inputs are interconnected internally so you can use the RCA's and then use the 1/4" jacks as an output, or vice versa etc...

Regardless of what Gallo said, I have also been toying with the idea of trying them as bridged monoblocks... just to see what they sound like that way.

[SteveFord]

To help derail this thread even further, my guess is that the people at Rogue Audio are on the right track with the Class D amps.
Use the solid state for the punch, the tubes for the soundstage and to help tailor the overall sound as well.

[roscoeiii]

To help derail this thread even further, my guess is that the people at Rogue Audio are on the right track with the Class D amps.
Use the solid state for the punch, the tubes for the soundstage and to help tailor the overall sound as well.

Quite a reasonable suggestion. That iTube is very intriguing for that reason.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

While I agree that digital is here to stay I would not say that it is superior just yet.  I have heard a pair of Ncore mono blocks in my system and they were lifeless and flat compared to my Pass X250 amp.  I have a Class D Audio CDA 254 and it can't hold a candle to the Pass and is inferior to my Parasound A21.  However, I am completely astounded at how good my Parts Express DTA100a digital amp sounds for the $50 I paid on sale.  I have it paired with a good DAC and some Monitor Audio S1 speakers.  I could almost be happy with it as my main system it sounds that good.

I have been impressed by a pair of Nuforce Model 9se monoblocks however but they still are not on par with my Pass. 

Now I have not heard all the digital amps out there and I am sure that there are some great ones.  And I do agree that digital amps are the future due to cost.  My Pass amp weighs in at 105 pounds and my Parasound is 60 pounds.  Most digital amps are 10 pounds or less.  There are huge profit margins to be had by manufacturers in digital technology.