RMAF 2011 Final thoughts.

dminches · « **Reply #40 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 17 Oct 2011, 06:16 pm

No excuse for this. The show date has been known for nearly a year.

Maybe the Salk speakers were a new design and they weren't ready for prime time until very recently. I don't know the details. I only know what I heard.

OzarkTom · « **Reply #41 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:22 pm »

I enjoyed Pez and Tyson's coverage and agree with much of what they said about the sound in the rooms. I can say this though, every room I went back too sounded better on the second day, some sounded much better on the third day. Some of it was equipment break-in from being new, some of it was from the digital sources. I have listened to too much digital, and even if the Dacs are fully broken in, it take 24-48 hours before it starts to sound the best again after being turned completely off. Almost all the rooms failed on the first day IMO, maybe 3-5% actually was great. Even the top YG-Tenor system was lacking on the first day, but it was the best of the show on the last day.

My biggest disappointment was the MBL room. I have been a huge fan of MBL's since 1980. I strongly believe MBL makes the best systems in the world. First day was horrendous, 2nd day was not too much better, the third day the system was incredible. If the show had had a few more days, this might have been my #1 choice. MBL admitted everything in the room was brand new at the show.

MBL never shows with room treatments, this shows their speakers never needs it. That is probably where I disagree with Pez the most, I prefer a good system in a non-treated room. And on the last day, there were many rooms at RMAF that sounded wonderful while using no room tratments.

And if anyone here thinks putting your personal great sounding systems in one of these hotel rooms is so easy, then try it sometime. I tried it at the LSAF last year, and my great sounding system at home sounded horrendous the first 24-30 hours. It is not that easy.

jtwrace · « **Reply #42 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:29 pm »

I'd LOVE to add to Pez and Tyson's coverage by cataloging the actual room measurements and then add the measurement to the posts that they have. I'd bet they would get close as they know good and bad. It would also be fun to do AFTER everyone has posted so you too could see if you hear what's REALLY happening.

Of course this could only happen if the room agreed.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #43 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:31 pm »

Tom, don't understand how that could be a matter of just breaking in, or even placement for that matter. I would think that a speaker manufacturer, in particular, would take care that everything upstream of them and their placement would be complimentary on day one. What am I missing?

OzarkTom · « **Reply #44 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:34 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 17 Oct 2011, 06:29 pm

I'd LOVE to add to Pez and Tyson's coverage by cataloging the actual room measurements and then add the measurement to the posts that they have. I'd bet they would get close as they know good and bad. It would also be fun to do AFTER everyone has posted so you too could see if you hear what's REALLY happening.

Of course this could only happen if the room agreed.

Majority of the rooms are small, 12x15, maybe a little larger. The suites were more like 15x22, maybe more. The best sound were in the suites of course. There are not enough suites in the hotel. But their were bad sound in some of the suites also.

jtwrace · « **Reply #45 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:40 pm »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 17 Oct 2011, 06:34 pm

Majority of the rooms are small, 12x15, maybe a little larger. The suites were more like 15x22, maybe more. The best sound were in the suites of course. There are not enough suites in the hotel. But their were bad sound in some of the suites also.

I've gone a bunch of times....still no excuse.

Zero · « **Reply #46 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 06:49 pm »

Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your experience with those of us who couldn't make it. I loved the coverage. Much appreciated!

OzarkTom · « **Reply #47 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 07:25 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 17 Oct 2011, 06:40 pm

I've gone a bunch of times....still no excuse.

There maybe are no excuses, but I have been going to these type of shows for over 30 years. To be honest, this was the best sounding show overall that I have ever attended.

Half of these booths or more are manned by distributors with several of their product lines. When they do a show, they take all new product. They do not have time or care if the product is broken-in.

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #48 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 07:25 pm »

Well said Pez!

My final thoughts?

WOW. What an an experience! My first trip to RMAF, and the first time I've been to any of these shows for more than a single day. I definitely ran out of steam somewhere late morning Sunday. Too many stairs trying to avoid the elevator waits. Have to see how the finances are doing next year, but it was definitely a blast. Now that I've experienced it, I think I would do a few things differently next time. I got tired of lugging around the extra gear after just the first day. I brought an SPL and a laser tape measure with the intent of taking measurements in the rooms, so that I could compare apples to apples afterwards - I didn't want room size and/or louder rooms to weigh into my opinions too much. It quickly becomes obvious that with the exception of the suites, there are basically two room sizes. The volume was changing too frequently - between "oh, that's too loud" and "No, turn it up" and the constantly changing dynamics of the music itself.

Pez, I don't know how you mangaged lugging that big DSLR and Pad around for three days!! You earned earned my respect!

There were about 10-15 rooms that had truly great sound, and I think seaparating them comes down to individual preferences, and whether or not you were able to hear music that you liked AND you were familiar with. The comfort level also played a factor - how friendly/inviting was it, and was the room too hot or cold.

I definitely liked the rooms with acoustical treatment better. In fact, I ran into Woodsyi Sunday afternoon in the hall, and he asked me for my opinion on a room we were next to - just duck in a give a quick opinion. It was one of the rooms with Wilson Sophias (which I love by the way).

It was one of the small rooms with no treatments. Walked in and out IMMEDIATELY. I couldn't stand it.

And that was not the only room where I did that. It's not really fair, IMHO, to judge those rooms. I have no way of knowing WHY the dealer/manufacturer ended up with massive speakers in a small untreated room, but I know for a fact that they will not sound as good as they should.

Several comments I will keep to myself, or if pressed share in person or via PM. I saw a few things that raised my eyebrows, and I don't know if it was just thoughtlessness by the demonstrator, or if there were some ethical issues.

It was nice meeting the gang from AC. Much props to Pez for the live coverage.

I managed to "hang out" in the GR room Sunday morning, and it was an absolute pleasure to meet Dave from PI Audio (already implementing some of your suggestions, and yep, things are moving in the right direction) as well as Danny, Gary, and Eric (on the spot with amplifier).

Thanks to all!!!!

OzarkTom · « **Reply #49 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 07:39 pm »

Eric Hider did tell me I could reveal his new DAC. Everyone at GR Research and PI Group were raving about it. DB Audio is coming out with the new battery powered DAC that is quite a bit better than the Tranquility SE. In fact, some says it blows the Tranquility away. Look for an announcement from Eric shortly.

woodcans · « **Reply #50 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 07:45 pm »

Pez & Tyson,

Thank you so much for such great coverage. I will not likely make it out for the show anytime soon and so must live vicariously. Your coverage is the best I have ever read. Far better than the magazines. Great photos, too! Amazing!!

macrojack · « **Reply #51 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 07:48 pm »

You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

I agree with jtwrace. These people can create a fantastically complicated product. You would think that they could plan ahead a few weeks and show up with product that is operating at its best. If two days of play at the show make a noticeable difference in the sound of these products, that just increases my wonder that they show up unprepared.

Truth be told, they're just making excuses.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #52 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 08:05 pm »

I would like to see Laura and Woodsyi's thoughts about what they heard if they have time to post when they get home.Scotty

Spirit · « **Reply #53 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 08:30 pm »

Quote from: dminches on 17 Oct 2011, 05:46 pm

Rob, I went back to the Salk/Van Alstine room on day 3 and the sound was completely different. Frank told me that the speakers were brand new and needed to be broken in. He was right. They sounded much better on Sunday.

If this is truly what Frank told you then his comment is very lame. This show was not a surprise announcement. The dates have been known for a long time. Get your act together or don't exhibit the speakers. This is like a high school student knowing for six months that he will have to hand in a full-semester project and waits until the night before the deadline to prepare it! I too was very much looking forward to hearing the Salk/AVA system and I was disappointed - it just lack any emotion or impact. IMHO

jtwrace · « **Reply #54 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 08:42 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 17 Oct 2011, 07:48 pm

You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

I agree with jtwrace. These people can create a fantastically complicated product. You would think that they could plan ahead a few weeks and show up with product that is operating at its best. If two days of play at the show make a noticeable difference in the sound of these products, that just increases my wonder that they show up unprepared.

Truth be told, they're just making excuses.

Bingo!

Quote from: Spirit on 17 Oct 2011, 08:30 pm

If this is truly what Frank told you then his comment is very lame. This show was not a surprise announcement. The dates have been known for a long time. Get your act together or don't exhibit the speakers. This is like a high school student knowing for six months that he will have to hand in a full-semester project and waits until the night before the deadline to prepare it! I too was very much looking forward to hearing the Salk/AVA system and I was disappointed - it just lack any emotion or impact. IMHO

I couldn't agree more.

chester_audio · « **Reply #55 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 08:49 pm »

I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?

jtwrace · « **Reply #56 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 08:54 pm »

Quote from: chester_audio on 17 Oct 2011, 08:49 pm

I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?

You supply the gear? Bring it on!!!

Tyson · « **Reply #57 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 08:59 pm »

Quote from: chester_audio on 17 Oct 2011, 08:49 pm

I wonder how many of those throwing stones about room setup have ever done it at one of these shows. Maybe there should be a contest at RMAF for some of you to show us your prowess at room setup?

Sure, bring it on. I would point out that my livelihood does not depend on getting good sound from a system. If it did, I would Make sure I was good at it. Scratch that, I'd make sure I was GREAT at it. And I'd use every tool at my disposal......like room treatments. And big fat guys standing in the corner. And hot show babes greeting everyone.

AJinFLA · « **Reply #58 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 09:14 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 17 Oct 2011, 08:59 pm

And I'd use every tool at my disposal......like room treatments. And big fat guys standing in the corner. And hot show babes greeting everyone.

What, no beer? Scotch?

*Scotty* · « **Reply #59 on:** 17 Oct 2011, 09:15 pm »

Something that needs to be remembered when discussing small loudspeaker companies particularly those that build to order like Salk does is that they have no excess capacity, they are producing loudspeakers as fast as they can to meet existing orders. They have had to divert time and resources away from production to build the speakers taken to the show. I am not at all surprised that they wind up bringing loudspeakers that are not fully broken in.If their business is successful they have stolen time from spare moments or nights and weekends to build something to take to the show. Another thing to remember is that most small vendors who go to these shows are lucky to get enough sales based on their appearance at the show to break even on the trip. I am willing to cut the little guys considerable slack because of these factors.
Scotty