AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: Flinx99 on 8 Apr 2015, 09:11 pm
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Hi. This is my first post here. I stumbled on this site after reading some comments about Omega desktop speakers that really have me intrigued. I currently own a pair of B&W 686s (first version) that I have had for a few years and I am interested in upgrading. I have been slowly upgrading other parts of my system and these are hopefully the last piece. I used to run them through an entry level Pioneer Elite AVR with an Infinity sub and because I ran them as desktop speakers, I was always in the sweet spot and thought I had an awesome sound going. At least until I upgraded my computer.
I upgraded my computer to a Surface Pro 3, which has no digital out and an arguably terrible DAC onboard. I previously ran optical out from my motherboard to the Pioneer Elite and I was totally happy. When I started running from the headphone jack to the AVR, I thought the sound was definitely downgraded, so I started researching my options. I figured there had to be a USB solution and I found out about the Musical Fidelity V-Link. I also stopped by a local hi-fi store to see if they had any options and they actually had a used Musical Fidelity lying around that they let me take home and demo. This device let me output and convert a digital signal from the USB port of my SP3 and give me the choice of either optical or coax digital out to my AVR. Perfect. I went back to the store and bought it.
By this point, I had also upgraded my media player from Winamp to JRiver Media Center 20. This could see the V-Link directly and let me choose it as an output. It also does a better job at organizing albums than Winamp (Winamp is still great as a streaming media option, though, and the basic version is free). The owner of the store let me run my SP3 through one of his setups and we listened and talked music. The system consisted of an Acoustic Research DAC and Acoustic Research AMP running Wilson Audio speakers that are about 300 lbs each and as tall as my 7 year old daughter. I was very impressed. Definitely a Will-o-the-Wisp system for me, but I've been chasing that sound since then.
The weakest link in my system seemed to be my sub. I had this weird sound in the high-bass frequencies, so I upgraded that from an Infinity P-8 to a Rel T-9 at the suggestion of the owner of the store. Great sub and it really did improve my sound--- no more LFE inputs on subs for me. The weird sound was reduced, but not eliminated.
I figured a DAC would be my next upgrade at a later date, so I did a little reading to find out if the DAC in the Pioneer Elite was decent or not. I also found out that my B&W 686s were not very efficient and seemed to need a decent amount of power to really output to their potential. Then I landed on Music Direct's website and saw they had a Winter Clearance sale going on. I found bundled set made up of a Musical Fidelity M1 SDAC and M1 PWR amp that were marked down about 75% when purchased together. I also saw a set of Focal bookshelf speakers marked down from $1,500 to something close to $500, I think. Those went really fast and ceased to be an option. I then figured the MF package wouldn't last long either. I showed my wife that they were marked down 75% and she surprised me by not only admitting that it was a good deal, but by not being completely against the purchase. I mentioned that they had no interest financing and when she said don't do that rather than don't even think about buying them, I knew I had her blessing. I still waffled and when she asked me a couple of days later if I'd ordered them yet, I said soon, and ran upstairs to my computer. : )
I went to the site and looked up Musical Fidelity, only to find another package deal. For an additional $200, I would forgo special interconnects for an additional M1 PWR amp. Why in the world would I need two amps? Then I read about monoblocks. The M1 PWR outputs 60 wpc in stereo mode, but 100 wpc in mono mode. Well, I figured if my speakers really needed power, this should do it. I ordered the package and when I hooked it up, it sounded like I bought new speakers. What a huge difference. I've been into music and audio equipment since I was in high school, but I have to admit that I'm new to hi-fi. I now have an understanding of what soundstage means. I have done a lot of reading since buying the MF package, but I still think it's a good deal, especially if you're starting from scratch. I think the package is still available. So much for rushing because I was worried they would run out. I learned that when you run in mono mode, both sets of binding posts output the same signal and I had extra speaker wire, so I biwired the B&Ws for the heck of it. I honestly can't say that I noticed a difference, but it makes logical sense to me, based upon my limited knowledge.
After all this, the weird sound didn't go away. From what I can figure out, it's caused by early reflections from my desk. I've been trying different placement configurations to try to reduce the reflections and it has helped a bit. I currently have them raised up rather high, so I've turned them upside down to get the tweeters close to ear level. I think I've got them up about 24 inches off my desk, angled down slightly with no toe-in. The room itself is roughly 14x28 and my desk is at one of the narrow ends, set to the left a bit and the speakers are about a foot or so from the wall. Moving the desk isn't really an option.
If anyone listening to speakers with a nearfield set-up wants to see if they can replicate the sound I'm hearing, a good test is in the song, Siberian Khatru, by Yes. Roughly 3:30 seconds into the song there is an extended note from an electric bass that resonates oddly. If you listen with headphones, you won't hear the resonance. I had a friend of mine listen to the song on his Audioengine A2s in nearfield and he could hear the same resonance. I would like to upgrade my speakers to improve my overall sound and a great side effect would be getting rid of this reflection issue (if that's what it is), but I'm not sure if better speakers would make a difference with the resonance. I tried switching to a pair of Paradigm Atoms that I use on my wife's computer, but I heard the same sound. I just don't know what will happen if I go up in quality.
When I started looking for nearfield speakers, I came across KEF's LS50s (@ $1,500), then I read about Audience's The One (@ $1,000), and finally, I read about the Omega 3is or desktop speakers. I wasn't looking for single driver speakers with no crossovers, but this is where my research has brought me.
Does anyone hear have any experience with the LS50s or The Ones and the Omega 3? Honestly, the Omega 3is or desktop might be the best sounding speakers of the three going by what I've read and my budget would be very thankful for that. Also, would a single driver set-up have any impact on early reflections?
Thanks, especially if you made it this far.
Jim
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Hello Flinx99,
Welcome to the Omega AudioCircle. Sounds like quite a journey you've been on. Years back I was on a similar journey, until I discovered Omega speakers and low/flea powered high quality amplification. I've never looked back and that was 6 years ago. I went from hi-fi music reproduction to live music - a night and day difference.
Siberian Khatru, by Yes @ 3:30 definitely has a problem, not your gear. Like many rock recordings of the 70s, the sound quality is not great and not something to judge your system by.
I've not heard the Audience speakers, but I've heard the LS50 up against the Super 3i. The amp I used was a 22w/ch gain clone which admittedly was a poor match for the KEFs and a good match for the Super 3i. It was no contest, and I think even if the KEF had a 100w/ch high current amp in front of it (which no doubt would have improved it) the gap wouldn't have totally closed. The KEF sounded slow, tubby and thick compared to the Super 3i which had electrostatic speed and was so transparent. The soundstage was also no contest, the Super 3i bringing so much more of a live presentation, not to mention room (big room) filling sound.
The Omega, KEF, and Audience, would be better than your B&Ws on the desktop, being single point source speakers. The closer your ears get to your B&Ws the worse the phase misalignment becomes due to the drivers being mounted on different locations on the front baffle. Single driver and Dual concentric don't have this issue. The Omega Super 3 Desktop with it's downfiring port and uptilted cabinet would likely trounce the KEF and Audience. The Super 3 Desktop is made specifically for the desktop - it's not a jack of all trades, but a master of one, the desktop. See this review: http://headphone.guru/omega-super-3-desktop-speaker/ (http://headphone.guru/omega-super-3-desktop-speaker/)
Are you aware the KEF LS50 @ $1500 and Audience @ $1000 are both likely built in Chinese sweat shops at about 1000% profit when for $1500 one can get a pair of true craftsman made in the USA Super 3 Desktops AND a deepOmega 8 sub? No contest. Not even close. Check out this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133826.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133826.0)
Lastly, look at the efficiency of the Omegas at 94.5dB and no crossover, the KEFs at 85dB with power sucking crossover, and the Audience at 84dB and no crossover. The higher efficiency of the Omega RS5 driver make it suitable for amplifiers with as low as 2w/ch (or less on a desktop). Virtually any amplifier won't break a sweat on the Omegas, the result being increased dynamics particularly at low volumes. Speaker designs like the KEF and Audience will likely need more volume to get their dynamics really flowing - not a good thing on the desktop where high volume levels are generally not needed or wanted.
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I"m using LS50s, but not in a desktop setting, although some folks do. I've never experienced, or read of anyone else experiencing the sound of the KEFs as " slow, tubby and thick". If anything, they are a lean speakers that needs a warm amp. The back ports can be plugged with half and full plugs, to tune the bass response.
You need to audition both speakers. KEFS can be bought off of Amazon, with a 30 day trial period.
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Thanks for the input jk@home. The comparison between the LS50 and Super 3i was done in my place on my system. Like the LS50 the Super 3i also prefers a warmer amp. No two way speaker I've heard can match the speed of the Omega RS5 driver. Due to the weight difference there is no physical way the 5.25 inch magnesium/aluminum rubber surrounded driver of the KEF can match the speed of the 4.5 inch paper/fiber cone fabric surrounded RS5. The Super 3i will work up against a rear wall or out into the room depending on the setup. The Super 3i can also be had for a 30 day trial in the USA and they're only $595 and not $1500. When you get to $1500 in the Omega line, you're into the Super 3XRS level 2 finish, Super 7 Monitor MK2 level 2 finish, and Super 7XRS level 1 finish, and with these you'll be embarrassing speakers in excess of $5000.
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RDavidson has the LS50s and owned the Super 3 XRS, he plans on getting the Super Alnicos sometime after a move... he will probably respond soon, if not you can send him a pm.
For a desktop setup I think the Omegas are likely to work better.
On early reflections, single drivers have a narrowing response as frequency rises, so high frequencies have limited dispersion, or are more focused... this does result in a speaker that is easier to deal with wrt 1st reflection points. I'm NOT saying you shouldn't treat 1st reflection points, you should... The KEF's cone does act as a waveguide for the tweeter to some degree as well, it's effect is also determined by cone diameter so it will be better than a speaker with a conventional wide-dispersion dome tweeter.
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Dave is correct. Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to talk about details of my experience.
You can now put the LS50's on my owned (past tense) list. I sold them 2-3 weeks ago. Their size, versatility, and culmination of strengths are great, but as I continued sorting out my gear and systems, the KEFs have a glaring flaw preventing them from being used in a secondary system (in a high traffic area) where they'd eventually be relegated. Their exposed drivers are just an accident waiting to happen. The last thing I want to deal with is kids or guests touching my speaker drivers or worse. :nono:
As Dave pointed out, I'm going to get Alnicos at some point. After owning the 3xrs, my mind is made up regarding what speakers are going into my main system. Note, I listen nearfield (but not desktop nearfield). Something worth mention is that Louis's customer service is second to none. His attention to detail and desire to please his customers might make one think they're paying $10k + for Wilsons or whatever. This is coming from a guy who bought his 3xrs on the used market too. :thumb:
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Although this is an Omega Loudspeakers Circle, I may be able to offer some different perspective.
I have a number of different systems at work and at home. One on my desktop, two in a small dedicated listening room, and one in the living room that is a jack of all trades and which spends most of its time providing TV sound. My amps are single-ended triode, NAD D3020, Tripath, and classic Kenwood integrated.
OP seems to be jumping in with both feet down an expensive path. If I were in his position, my choices would be:
1. NAD D3020. This $500 all-in-one device is the single biggest bargain in mainstream Hifi today. It outputs clean, adequate power, sounds great, has a full range of digital inputs, AptX Bluetooth, analog input, and a headphone amp. Connect this via USB tothe MS Surface 3 and you are only missing speakers.
2. Single-driver speakers. Omega's are obviously the preferred choice around here and I know from personal experience that the RS5 drivers will work wonderfully with the NAD. The GR Research LGK is another great option, but I think the Omega will take you further.
3. Isoacoustics Speaker Stands. These run about $80 a pair and will change your mind about stands. They take your desktop reflections out of the equation and allow you to tune the speaker height perfectly.
4. Add some decent cables and desktop acoustic traetment. No need to go crazy but just because it is your desktop doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate listening environment. You are essentially creating a near field studio monitor setup.
All told you are now into this for about $1,300. If you then add a sub you're up around $2,100 and you would have to spend a lot more time and money to dramatically improve this experience. You also have components that can be reconfigured away from the desktop as your needs or tastes evolve. The Omegas can easily transition to stand or credenza mount driven by tubes and I imagine the NAD would make a very rocking system driving a pair of vintage Klipsch speakers.
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I've owned the LS50s at the same time as My Omegas. I've since sold the Kef's. Really it comes down to the single driver sound. If you appreciate it, you'll prefer the omegas. In comparison, the omegas are more coherent, image better and are more dynamic and faster. The Kefs will play louder and probably sound like they have lower bass, but over time you might realize that You are just hearing a typical bass bloat on the kefs that is not there with the omegas.
IF you compare the omegas to the kefs on a conventional amp, the advantages of the omegas may not come through as starkly. It's when you start playing with some of the Low powered tube amps where for me, the omegas really pull away.
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Very much agree. The KEFs like some current to come alive. At lower volumes they can actually sound a bit thin. For me, that's a major advantage of Omegas. I listen nearfield and at moderate volumes the majority of the time. The Omegas don't need a lot of power (or turning the volume knob up) to sound right (balanced). They definitely are more coherent and phase correct (image better) than the KEFs......which is interesting because if you read reviews, the KEFs are superior to A LOT of speakers in this regard. Note, I'm using Pass amps.
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Hello Flinx99,
Welcome to the Omega AudioCircle. Sounds like quite a journey you've been on. Years back I was on a similar journey, until I discovered Omega speakers and low/flea powered high quality amplification. I've never looked back and that was 6 years ago. I went from hi-fi music reproduction to live music - a night and day difference.
Siberian Khatru, by Yes @ 3:30 definitely has a problem, not your gear. Like many rock recordings of the 70s, the sound quality is not great and not something to judge your system by.
I've not heard the Audience speakers, but I've heard the LS50 up against the Super 3i. The amp I used was a 22w/ch gain clone which admittedly was a poor match for the KEFs and a good match for the Super 3i. It was no contest, and I think even if the KEF had a 100w/ch high current amp in front of it (which no doubt would have improved it) the gap wouldn't have totally closed. The KEF sounded slow, tubby and thick compared to the Super 3i which had electrostatic speed and was so transparent. The soundstage was also no contest, the Super 3i bringing so much more of a live presentation, not to mention room (big room) filling sound.
The Omega, KEF, and Audience, would be better than your B&Ws on the desktop, being single point source speakers. The closer your ears get to your B&Ws the worse the phase misalignment becomes due to the drivers being mounted on different locations on the front baffle. Single driver and Dual concentric don't have this issue. The Omega Super 3 Desktop with it's downfiring port and uptilted cabinet would likely trounce the KEF and Audience. The Super 3 Desktop is made specifically for the desktop - it's not a jack of all trades, but a master of one, the desktop. See this review: http://headphone.guru/omega-super-3-desktop-speaker/ (http://headphone.guru/omega-super-3-desktop-speaker/)
Are you aware the KEF LS50 @ $1500 and Audience @ $1000 are both likely built in Chinese sweat shops at about 1000% profit when for $1500 one can get a pair of true craftsman made in the USA Super 3 Desktops AND a deepOmega 8 sub? No contest. Not even close. Check out this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133826.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133826.0)
Lastly, look at the efficiency of the Omegas at 94.5dB and no crossover, the KEFs at 85dB with power sucking crossover, and the Audience at 84dB and no crossover. The higher efficiency of the Omega RS5 driver make it suitable for amplifiers with as low as 2w/ch (or less on a desktop). Virtually any amplifier won't break a sweat on the Omegas, the result being increased dynamics particularly at low volumes. Speaker designs like the KEF and Audience will likely need more volume to get their dynamics really flowing - not a good thing on the desktop where high volume levels are generally not needed or wanted.
Thanks for the welcome Canada Rob. The journey has been a fun and educational one so far.
The issue with the Yes song was an unfortunate discovery---I was expecting so much more from this album in terms of SQ. Close to the Edge is one of my favorites.
Phase misalignment hadn't occurred to me. If I listen to the Yes song previously referenced on headphones, the sound is normal. If I listen from across the room, it's also normal. This and a great comment I came across on another forum is what had me thinking mid-range early reflections. I never thought that the two drivers could conflict in a near field space.
Room filling sound is what I'm looking for----I want to capture a large soundstage and scale it down to the desktop, if that makes sense. When not in the office and dependent on earphones, the only realistic opportunities for listening to music are when I'm on my computer, either working,just catching up on the news, or reading up on this new hobby.
I live in Texas, but I grew up in Vermont. I would be quite happy to buy speakers designed and crafted in New England. I really like my Rel sub, so I'm not sweating the low end. I actually like the idea of the Super 3s potentially rolling off a bit higher on the bass so I can creep up the crossover point on my Rel. I run it around 50 hz now to avoid conflicts with my bookshelfs.
I think I'm OK with power, either way. I can continue with monoblocks, but it sounds like if I go with the Super 3s (still would have to land on the version, but that's a later decision), monoblocks would be overkill and I could shift an amp onto my wife's computer. Waste not, want not.
Thanks again for the welcome.
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I"m using LS50s, but not in a desktop setting, although some folks do. I've never experienced, or read of anyone else experiencing the sound of the KEFs as " slow, tubby and thick". If anything, they are a lean speakers that needs a warm amp. The back ports can be plugged with half and full plugs, to tune the bass response.
You need to audition both speakers. KEFS can be bought off of Amazon, with a 30 day trial period.
Thanks for the input. Honestly, WAF (is the acronym for Wife Approval Factor universal enough to avoid defining?) is a key issue here. If start ordering speakers with the idea of demoing in them in house, she might have me committed. I think I'm going to have to make my purchase based upon an amalgam of the experience of others. It sounds like (ha---no pun intended) that near field listening on the desktop, while probably universal, is not an area where many people sink their money. The family area is for TV and movies and while I appreciate that sound makes a huge difference in that space, I would rather invest in where I will listen to music. I've got surround sound in the family area and the sound blows away the TV speakers, which isn't difficult.
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+1 I also share your EXACT sentiments.
Music system = most important
Family room system = medium importance
Desktop system = least important (not a slight at those with serious desktop / headphone rigs)
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3. Isoacoustics Speaker Stands. These run about $80 a pair and will change your mind about stands. They take your desktop reflections out of the equation and allow you to tune the speaker height perfectly.
2nd these. I'm using them under the LS50s (actually have Isolate-it Sorbothane semi-spheres attached to underneath the KEFs, and they in turn fit great into the top "cup" mounts of the Isos). All this sitting on 24" stands.
Now the one time my KEFs did sound boomy was when I tried spikes between the speakers and stands, coupling the two together. So little tweaks like this can help alot.
Thanks for the input. Honestly, WAF (is the acronym for Wife Approval Factor universal enough to avoid defining?) is a key issue here. If start ordering speakers with the idea of demoing in them in house, she might have me committed. I think I'm going to have to make my purchase based upon an amalgam of the experience of others. It sounds like (ha---no pun intended) that near field listening on the desktop, while probably universal, is not an area where many people sink their money. The family area is for TV and movies and while I appreciate that sound makes a huge difference in that space, I would rather invest in where I will listen to music. I've got surround sound in the family area and the sound blows away the TV speakers, which isn't difficult.
I hear ya regarding the WAF. I have to tread lightly myself. I've kinda combined the whole music room vs desktop system thing. My listening position in my 2 channel room is at a desk with a office chair, PC display, etc. against the back wall. For serious listening, I just roll the chair more into the room and grab an ottoman for a foot rest. If I'm really serious, I'll place a couple of diy 2' x 2' absorber panels on top of the desk, to catch the back reflections.
The room is suppose to be a home office, again, see WAF. :green: The family PC downstairs has some inexpensive specific PC brand speakers, won't go there here.
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+1 I also share your EXACT sentiments.
Music system = most important
Family room system = medium importance
Desktop system = least important (not a slight at those with serious desktop / headphone rigs)
I'm with you on the exposed drivers on the LS50s---my daughter and one of our cats showed particular interest when I did a short test drive of my current speakers without grills. The design looks like it might put up with poking and prodding fingers, but probably not claws.
I'm glad to hear that Louis has a high regard for customer service----that is very important to me. I think it's great that he posts here and it makes me think I'm buying a piece of functional art. I'm excited to read that Super 3s may surpass the LS50s purported ability to present better than even costlier speakers.
Regarding desktop near field listening: a unintended benefit has been Tidal, which became available in the US right around the same time I started on my upgrade path. I can run it through JRiver Media Center 20 and it sounds fantastic. I've been scouring forums and websites for examples of recordings with good soundstage and imaging so that I can learn what my system can do and I've been able to use Tidal to listen to the examples I find. I've been surprised at my success and this is with full albums in lossless quality, not just 30 second compressed samples.
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2nd these. I'm using them under the LS50s (actually have Isolate-it Sorbothane semi-spheres attached to underneath the KEFs, and they in turn fit great into the top "cup" mounts of the Isos). All this sitting on 24" stands.
Now the one time my KEFs did sound boomy was when I tried spikes between the speakers and stands, coupling the two together. So little tweaks like this can help alot.
I hear ya regarding the WAF. I have to tread lightly myself. I've kinda combined the whole music room vs desktop system thing. My listening position in my 2 channel room is at a desk with a office chair, PC display, etc. against the back wall. For serious listening, I just roll the chair more into the room and grab an ottoman for a foot rest. If I'm really serious, I'll place a couple of diy 2' x 2' absorber panels on top of the desk, to catch the back reflections.
The room is suppose to be a home office, again, see WAF. :green: The family PC downstairs has some inexpensive specific PC brand speakers, won't go there here.
I think I might have to pick up an ottoman---I slide back and put my feet on my desk, but an ottoman sounds more comfortable. I do find that my current speakers image better and present a deeper soundstage the closer I sit, though. It sounds so good that it's very distracting. Once I get the "pebble in my shoe" sound take care of, I would like to say I will be finished.
I'd be interested in how your speakers would sound running Siberian Khatru that I referred to earlier. Do you have access to Close to the Edge, by Yes? If you do, give it a listen and see if you can hear what I hear. It's jarring. I wouldn't blame you if you don't try it, though---it would stink if I point out something you didn't notice before because once you notice it, you can hear it in other music. Siberian Khatru is just the best (or worst) example I've come across.
Thanks.
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I actually have that album on vinyl, bought it when it was first released (yeah, it's been a few years since). But I have no turntable, have gone all digital with FLAC files and a Squeezebox/DAC setup.
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I'm with you on the exposed drivers on the LS50s---my daughter and one of our cats showed particular interest when I did a short test drive of my current speakers without grills. The design looks like it might put up with poking and prodding fingers, but probably not claws.
I'm glad to hear that Louis has a high regard for customer service----that is very important to me. I think it's great that he posts here and it makes me think I'm buying a piece of functional art. I'm excited to read that Super 3s may surpass the LS50s purported ability to present better than even costlier speakers.
Regarding desktop near field listening: a unintended benefit has been Tidal, which became available in the US right around the same time I started on my upgrade path. I can run it through JRiver Media Center 20 and it sounds fantastic. I've been scouring forums and websites for examples of recordings with good soundstage and imaging so that I can learn what my system can do and I've been able to use Tidal to listen to the examples I find. I've been surprised at my success and this is with full albums in lossless quality, not just 30 second compressed samples.
It's just not worth the risk to me. I'm meticulous about taking care of my gear. If I came home to a damaged driver, I'd be pretty upset.....but then, I'd have to be upset with myself for creating the situation. That the LS50's would go in the less important setup anyway, made it an easy decision to sell them. Not to mention, I figured if I really missed them, I could always buy them again. So far, not missing them that much.
You'll find that many are quite fanatical about their Omegas and Louis here on AC. It is well warranted if you ask me. I'm glad to have given Omegas a try when I finally did. I feel that had I done it sooner, I might not have fully understood nor appreciated the level of sophistication that belies their simple form. Yes, they're truly artisan speakers carefully crafted, one at a time.
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RDavidson has the LS50s and owned the Super 3 XRS, he plans on getting the Super Alnicos sometime after a move... he will probably respond soon, if not you can send him a pm.
For a desktop setup I think the Omegas are likely to work better.
On early reflections, single drivers have a narrowing response as frequency rises, so high frequencies have limited dispersion, or are more focused... this does result in a speaker that is easier to deal with wrt 1st reflection points. I'm NOT saying you shouldn't treat 1st reflection points, you should... The KEF's cone does act as a waveguide for the tweeter to some degree as well, it's effect is also determined by cone diameter so it will be better than a speaker with a conventional wide-dispersion dome tweeter.
Thanks. I'm a bit stumped as to treating the reflections---I would think the would be occurring on the desk itself. I am thinking more about Canada Rob's thought about phase misalignment, which has me optimistic that a speaker switch might be the fix.
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I've owned the LS50s at the same time as My Omegas. I've since sold the Kef's. Really it comes down to the single driver sound. If you appreciate it, you'll prefer the omegas. In comparison, the omegas are more coherent, image better and are more dynamic and faster. The Kefs will play louder and probably sound like they have lower bass, but over time you might realize that You are just hearing a typical bass bloat on the kefs that is not there with the omegas.
IF you compare the omegas to the kefs on a conventional amp, the advantages of the omegas may not come through as starkly. It's when you start playing with some of the Low powered tube amps where for me, the omegas really pull away.
Thanks. I've got solid state amps, but even if the Omegas are on par with the LS50s for near field listening, they sound like the potential winner due to quality and price. If they surpass the LS50s for near field desktop SQ due to the single driver, all the better.
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Although this is an Omega Loudspeakers Circle, I may be able to offer some different perspective.
I have a number of different systems at work and at home. One on my desktop, two in a small dedicated listening room, and one in the living room that is a jack of all trades and which spends most of its time providing TV sound. My amps are single-ended triode, NAD D3020, Tripath, and classic Kenwood integrated.
OP seems to be jumping in with both feet down an expensive path. If I were in his position, my choices would be:
1. NAD D3020. This $500 all-in-one device is the single biggest bargain in mainstream Hifi today. It outputs clean, adequate power, sounds great, has a full range of digital inputs, AptX Bluetooth, analog input, and a headphone amp. Connect this via USB tothe MS Surface 3 and you are only missing speakers.
2. Single-driver speakers. Omega's are obviously the preferred choice around here and I know from personal experience that the RS5 drivers will work wonderfully with the NAD. The GR Research LGK is another great option, but I think the Omega will take you further.
3. Isoacoustics Speaker Stands. These run about $80 a pair and will change your mind about stands. They take your desktop reflections out of the equation and allow you to tune the speaker height perfectly.
4. Add some decent cables and desktop acoustic traetment. No need to go crazy but just because it is your desktop doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate listening environment. You are essentially creating a near field studio monitor setup.
All told you are now into this for about $1,300. If you then add a sub you're up around $2,100 and you would have to spend a lot more time and money to dramatically improve this experience. You also have components that can be reconfigured away from the desktop as your needs or tastes evolve. The Omegas can easily transition to stand or credenza mount driven by tubes and I imagine the NAD would make a very rocking system driving a pair of vintage Klipsch speakers.
You are spot on about jumping in with both feet and the expense. My wife wholeheartedly agrees, which is why I won't be bring up the NAD anytime soon. I appreciate the infi, but I really am happy with the Musical Fidelity gear I bought and I think the Rel is a great sub. Speakers next and I told my wife that was it.
I did come across this write-up on the NAD the other day. I really want to say I had an NAD eq in the late 80s, but can't zwear to it.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-d-3020-integrated-amplifier
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Check out audiostream.com for reviews of desktop oriented playback gear including speakers. It's a spin off of Stereophile magazine. Speaker reviews are mostly of active 2-way speakers, similar to what is used in the studio to record/mix the music we listen to. I own large single driver speakers, but recognize that the studio folks are the serious listeners (working to find all the flaws and create the best possible recording) while we just listen to be entertained. It continues to amaze me the differences between the two camps. They don't understand how we can be so fixated on tweaks yet tolerate tons of coloration. OTOH we can't understand why they have never "grown" beyond generic cabling/amps, yet we base it all on their means and methods for recording.
Oh, and Flinx99, highly recommend using whatever "natural" recordings you're familiar with to evaluate gear with. Natural recordings (live music created without electronics) provide the only gold standard to measure against (everything else is a yours versus mine, in terms of gear/venue).
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Check out audiostream.com for reviews of desktop oriented playback gear including speakers. It's a spin off of Stereophile magazine. Speaker reviews are mostly of active 2-way speakers, similar to what is used in the studio to record/mix the music we listen to. I own large single driver speakers, but recognize that the studio folks are the serious listeners (working to find all the flaws and create the best possible recording) while we just listen to be entertained. It continues to amaze me the differences between the two camps. They don't understand how we can be so fixated on tweaks yet tolerate tons of coloration. OTOH we can't understand why they have never "grown" beyond generic cabling/amps, yet we base it all on their means and methods for recording.
Oh, and Flinx99, highly recommend using whatever "natural" recordings you're familiar with to evaluate gear with. Natural recordings (live music created without electronics) provide the only gold standard to measure against (everything else is a yours versus mine, in terms of gear/venue).
I do like Audiostream. I also enjoy reading John Darko's Dugital Audio Review. He has only positive things to say about Omega speakers.
While I do listen to "natural" recordings and am blown away by a good soundstage presentation, I also enjoy the guilty pleasure of the artificial soundstage created by electronic music. The band, Air, is a good example.
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Intersting, Flinx. We also share similar taste in music. I listen to a good bit of chill/ambient particularly in the mornings while I work. French Band Air is great. Thievery Corporation is also a favorite. It's good music. Nothing to feel guilty about. This hobby is supposed to be inclusive. Everyone enjoys music, afterall. In the afternoon I typically switch to something more energetic. I listen to pretty much everything except pop country. I'm also not a big fan of big band jazz. All those trumpets eventually drive me nuts. :lol:
Depending on music type and loudness, you just have to temper your expectations with regard to bass extension / output. Do you plan to get a sub? I won't say it is a requirement, but it is a welcome addition.
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Not trying to be a musical elitist, just saying that listening to hard rock for instance, can only boil down to an exercise of comparing listening to one huge set of sound reinforcement gear in an arena versus your gear in your room.
I liked Darko years ago too, but he's gotten full of verbage since joining up with 6 moons (the Srajan effect?). And I'm leery of reviewers that get stuck with the same brands (have they lost perspective? has it become a mutual admiration society? just doesn't have the appearance of a healthy relationship).
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Being in an Omega Circle, I'd imagine you would see more positive impressions of Omegas. That said, is it at all possible for you to listen to both speakers?
Those LS50s are really special, as the many raves and awards would indicate. Though they will not shine if underpowered. And yes, I would imagine that they may not be as compelling at low volumes. But their bass and ability to fill a small room is excellent. An exceptional speaker, but one that will sound different than the single-driver sound. For better, for worse. Very often a matter of trade-offs and personal preferences about what tradeoffs are worthwhile and which are not.
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Not trying to be a musical elitist, just saying that listening to hard rock for instance, can only boil down to an exercise of comparing listening to one huge set of sound reinforcement gear in an arena versus your gear in your room.
Understood. I was just telling Flinx there's no reason to feel guilty about music he likes. I think many get intimidated by this hobby and audio forums (including AC), because of Audiophools who shun others for not listening to classical (live and at home). While I appreciate the idea of music education and the importance of understanding the difference between live sound and reproduced, one doesn't need to be educated to like what they like. Art is in eye of the beholder. Music is in the ear of the listener. At the end of the day, as long as one understands that the sound one's system can produce (regardless of cost) is still JUST a facsimile of the real thing, then that's all that's really necessary. How closely one wants to try and replicate the real thing in their home audio system is up to the individual to decide. Just enjoy yourself. :thumb:
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Being in an Omega Circle, I'd imagine you would see more positive impressions of Omegas. That said, is it at all possible for you to listen to both speakers?
Those LS50s are really special, as the many raves and awards would indicate. Though they will not shine if underpowered. And yes, I would imagine that they may not be as compelling at low volumes. But their bass and ability to fill a small room is excellent. An exceptional speaker, but one that will sound different than the single-driver sound. For better, for worse. Very often a matter of trade-offs and personal preferences about what tradeoffs are worthwhile and which are not.
Hi roscoeiii,
If you read further up the thread, you will see there are those who have heard both the KEF and Omega.
Back in my consumer days I purchased two audio products that were universally praised by the audio press on both sides of the pond. Five star, best buy, product of the year, etc. They were both mediocre sounding IMO and poorly made, and didn't last long in my system. Check out many of the review sites and you'll find the great reviews generally go to those who have the header and sidebar ads on said website. Audio reviewing today is advertiser driven, not market driven as in decades past. KEF, like many of the big names has deep advertising pockets hence gets great reviews. Also, much politics involved too.
At $1500 a pair, the LS50 should be made in the UK under the same strict CE, UL, CARB, etc. type rules that Omega voluntarily imposes upon itself. Sound quality aside, what health hazard do these made in China speakers impose to the owners thereof? Do you think a country that doesn't play by the same rules as the western world as far as "clean" products go is going to provide something safe?
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Hi roscoeiii,
If you read further up the thread, you will see there are those who have heard both the KEF and Omega.
Understand. I have read the rest of the thread. But I would imagine that those who preferred KEF would be posting on and following a KEF forum, Circle, etc.
KEF and single driver speakers have different sounds that will appeal to different people, was my main point
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Being in an Omega Circle, I'd imagine you would see more positive impressions of Omegas. That said, is it at all possible for you to listen to both speakers?
Those LS50s are really special, as the many raves and awards would indicate. Though they will not shine if underpowered. And yes, I would imagine that they may not be as compelling at low volumes. But their bass and ability to fill a small room is excellent. An exceptional speaker, but one that will sound different than the single-driver sound. For better, for worse. Very often a matter of trade-offs and personal preferences about what tradeoffs are worthwhile and which are not.
Everything you say is true. Even $100k speakers have tradeoffs. :thumb:
The LS50's are exceptional speakers. As you pointed out (as did I), they just aren't compelling at low volumes. As the OP is looking at near field use (possibly desktop use), I can't imagine the KEFs working well (low volumes - likely less than 1 watt) without equalization. Omegas, from my experience, are FAR more flexible with regard to low volume levels and sounding more balanced. I'm sure there are many reasons for this, including their much higher sensitivity, lower moving mass, and having no crossover. I wouldn't say someone else is "wrong" for liking LS50's over Omegas. Not only do personal preferences come into play, the listening environment as well as desired typical listening levels will dictate a lot about what speaker will work best in any given situation.....and that's why both Omega and KEF provide several options to choose from. :wink:
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Intersting, Flinx. We also share similar taste in music. I listen to a good bit of chill/ambient particularly in the mornings while I work. French Band Air is great. Thievery Corporation is also a favorite. It's good music. Nothing to feel guilty about. This hobby is supposed to be inclusive. Everyone enjoys music, afterall. In the afternoon I typically switch to something more energetic. I listen to pretty much everything except pop country. I'm also not a big fan of big band jazz. All those trumpets eventually drive me nuts. :lol:
Depending on music type and loudness, you just have to temper your expectations with regard to bass extension / output. Do you plan to get a sub? I won't say it is a requirement, but it is a welcome addition.
I love Thievery Corporation. The Cosmic Game is my favorite of theirs. Have you listened to the band Zero 7?
I have what I think is a good sub---a Rel T-9. I use the high level connection and crossover just below the bookshelf bass capabilities. I think there is a good chance that this sub would work well with the Omegas.
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I love Thievery Corporation. The Cosmic Game is my favorite of theirs. Have you listened to the band Zero 7?
I have what I think is a good sub---a Rel T-9. I use the high level connection and crossover just below the bookshelf bass capabilities. I think there is a good chance that this sub would work well with the Omegas.
Yup. Zero 7 is great too. Some of their vocals are eerily well recorded. :o In fact, Zero 7's album Simple Things is one of my references. No one can argue that we, as humans, know when the human voice sounds right (natural) or wrong (poorly recorded / processed).
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Everything you say is true. Even $100k speakers have tradeoffs. :thumb:
The LS50's are exceptional speakers. As you pointed out (as did I), they just aren't compelling at low volumes. As the OP is looking at near field use (possibly desktop use), I can't imagine the KEFs working well (low volumes - likely less than 1 watt) without equalization. Omegas, from my experience, are FAR more flexible with regard to low volume levels and sounding more balanced. I'm sure there are many reasons for this, including their much higher sensitivity, lower moving mass, and having no crossover. I wouldn't say someone else is "wrong" for liking LS50's over Omegas. Not only do personal preferences come into play, the listening environment as well as desired typical listening levels will dictate a lot about what speaker will work best in any given situation.....and that's why both Omega and KEF provide several options to choose from. :wink:
Desktop use is exactly what I am looking at. My available listening time is when I am in front [f my computer. At work I use IEMs, but at home I have more flexibility. I am beginning to think that the key to nearfield desktop listening is the lack of crossover. I don't say single driver because I have already started to wonder what two Omega drivers (RS5?) would sound like in a desktop speaker. : ). I don't have a dedicated listening room, but I do have a dedicated desk, and reading the news on a Saturday morning sitting in the sweet spot with a good cup of coffee floats my boat. Plowing through spreadsheets during the week in the same environment becomes completely bearable.
I start my workday when working from home with an Octoshape stream of Radio Swiss Jazz, but I tend to switch over to this by the end of the day:
http://37.130.228.60/aac-320.m3u
Great SQ. Radio Paradise running in a 320 kbps AAC stream. You'll find Air, Thievery Corporation, and Dave Brubek, to name a few. No country, although some classic Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash will make their way into a playlist hear and there.
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I have what I think is a good sub---a Rel T-9. I use the high level connection and crossover just below the bookshelf bass capabilities. I think there is a good chance that this sub would work well with the Omegas.
All you can do is try. The key with running a sub with Omegas is that the sub has to be very fast.
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The LS50's are exceptional speakers. As you pointed out (as did I), they just aren't compelling at low volumes.
Way back in the late seventies, I was in dealers show room who illustrated something I will never forget. He played two different speakers by the same manufacturer; one pair fairly efficient rated 92db about half the price of the another pair, which were rated fairly inefficient at 85db. He adjusted the volume to compensate for the difference in sensitivity so each produced the same sound pressure level. At 65 db weighted, the more efficient speakers sounded much fuller and alive than the less efficient speakers. However, when the gain was increased by 20 db, those same speakers sounded thin and void compared to the less efficient counter parts. On that basis, I bet the Kef's will most likely sound fuller and tonally richer than the Omega's at higher spl's.
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All you can do is try. The key with running a sub with Omegas is that the sub has to be very fast.
+1, high efficiency speakers and planars are both tough to integrate well with subs.
Though that said, I have had good luck with RELs in a high efficiency set-up.
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Way back in the late seventies, I was in dealers show room who illustrated something I will never forget. He played two different speakers by the same manufacturer; one pair fairly efficient rated 92db about half the price of the another pair, which were rated fairly inefficient at 85db. He adjusted the volume to compensate for the difference in sensitivity so each produced the same sound pressure level. At 65 db weighted, the more efficient speakers sounded much fuller and alive than the less efficient speakers. However, when the gain was increased by 20 db, those same speakers sounded thin and void compared to the less efficient counter parts. On that basis, I bet the Kef's will most likely sound fuller and tonally richer than the Omega's at higher spl's.
That might be true. Note the OP will be using the speakers for a desktop setup, so he's likely going to be sitting within a meter or so of the speakers. In my experience with the KEFs, to get them to open up and sound balanced (ESPECIALLY in upper bass and low mids) you have to feed them some power, which would be VERY loud within a meter. My listening chair is 3 meters away, and still found that I had to goose the volume control pretty well beyond my typical listening levels (in the 70's dbs usually and sometimes low/mid 80's dbs). I know our rooms and systems vary. And again, I would never say anyone is "wrong" for choosing KEFs. I'm trying to help the OP make what I truly believe is the ideal choice for a desktop setup. Given your experience, it seems that we're in agreement.
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All you can do is try. The key with running a sub with Omegas is that the sub has to be very fast.
Here's to hoping the Rel is fast enough. I am pretty much sold on the Omega Super 3i.
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Being in an Omega Circle, I'd imagine you would see more positive impressions of Omegas. That said, is it at all possible for you to listen to both speakers?
Those LS50s are really special, as the many raves and awards would indicate. Though they will not shine if underpowered. And yes, I would imagine that they may not be as compelling at low volumes. But their bass and ability to fill a small room is excellent. An exceptional speaker, but one that will sound different than the single-driver sound. For better, for worse. Very often a matter of trade-offs and personal preferences about what tradeoffs are worthwhile and which are not.
I am 99% sure I will be making my choice based upon written words, rather than sound. Low volume listening is key, here, too.
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Though that said, I have had good luck with RELs in a high efficiency set-up.
This is good to hear.
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One of the most surprisingly delightful systems I've heard in the lower price range was a pair of Super 3i and the Audioengine N22 amp, on the desktop, and in a room situation. In the room situation (two different rooms, one big, one medium/small) I ran with and without sub and the sound was incredible. The integration with the sub (Klipsch RPW10, a real sleeper) was amazing and the bottom end really tuneful. On the desktop I found a sub unnecessary but it would have been a nice addition.
I have a customer who came to hear Omega (he has MacIntosh tube amplification (275 MK5), ClearAudio TT, and Maggie speakers). I played the little system for him with and without sub and he left with the Super 3is. When he got the speakers thoroughly broken in (he is now running them on a PS Audio Sprout (Class D) he said for much of his music he left the sub off. He then bought Super 3XRS for his Mac front end.
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One of the most surprisingly delightful systems I've heard in the lower price range was a pair of Super 3i and the Audioengine N22 amp, on the desktop, and in a room situation. In the room situation (two different rooms, one big, one medium/small) I ran with and without sub and the sound was incredible. The integration with the sub (Klipsch RPW10, a real sleeper) was amazing and the bottom end really tuneful. On the desktop I found a sub unnecessary but it would have been a nice addition.
I have a customer who came to hear Omega (he has MacIntosh tube amplification (275 MK5), ClearAudio TT, and Maggie speakers). I played the little system for him with and without sub and he left with the Super 3is. When he got the speakers thoroughly broken in (he is now running them on a PS Audio Sprout (Class D) he said for much of his music he left the sub off. He then bought Super 3XRS for his Mac front end.
Canada Rob, are you an Omega dealer?
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Why are comparisons of Omega's to other brands not discussed in the Enclosures Circle instead of here? :scratch:
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Canada Rob, are you an Omega dealer?
Yes
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Why are comparisons of Omega's to other brands not discussed in the Enclosures Circle instead of here? :scratch:
Or better yet at least in the single driver circle where at least the single driver concept is accepted. Perhaps the overall sales numbers don't warrant mention. Perhaps Omega posters would rather stay in the friendlier confines of their own thread. The same could be said of other speaker circles, but a more balanced impression by venturing out would be welcomed.
The very non-mainstream concept of single driver design keeps the general audio population at bay (just like other non-traditional design concepts). Couple that with the prevalence of SET amplification that pushes the concept further towards the fringe, cheapy little single driver speakers we're all familiar with, and some huge outlandish cabinets (exemplified by horns) and single driver designs have a lots of stigma to overcome. Many audiophiles can be described as being closed minded fanatics and certainly this phenomenon adds to the single driver stigma. Honestly a big part of audio is gear lust and modestly shaped/sized cabinets with a single driver doesn't satisfy that yearning for filling the room with trophies from the big hunts.
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Not to mention the tradeoffs and limitations associated with single driver speakers.
I don't think that this should be pinned on audiophile closed-mindedness. Though that certainly exists, pertaining to both more traditional designs and single driver speakers.
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If anyone listening to speakers with a nearfield set-up wants to see if they can replicate the sound I'm hearing, a good test is in the song, Siberian Khatru, by Yes. Roughly 3:30 seconds into the song there is an extended note from an electric bass that resonates oddly. If you listen with headphones, you won't hear the resonance. ...
I don't listen in the nearfield and the song sounds heavily processed. Not the place to look for natural sounding anything. But I don't hear anything jarring on the note. Seems to fit right in with the rest of the song. My version is HDTracks 5760 kbps and 192 kHz so version might matter.
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Not to mention the tradeoffs and limitations associated with single driver speakers.
I don't think that this should be pinned on audiophile closed-mindedness. Though that certainly exists, pertaining to both more traditional designs and single driver speakers.
Agreed (didn't want to get into the limitations, but as I've mentioned before there is no perfect speaker).
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I don't listen in the nearfield and the song sounds heavily processed. Not the place to look for natural sounding anything. But I don't hear anything jarring on the note. Seems to fit right in with the rest of the song. My version is HDTracks 5760 kbps and 192 kHz so version might matter.
Thanks for checking. I actually have the same HDTracks version. I tested that and a CD rip I did in AIFF, but both produced the same results. I did have higher expectations for the whole album with decent equipment, but I was disappointed. I have heard that there are some pretty bad mixes of this album, which is a bummer. It really appears that the issue with the sound only occurs with nearfield listening. Another member tried it with dual-driver speakers (with a crossover) and heard the odd sound. He also tried a similar scenario by stepping up close to his Omega Outlaws and he said that if anyone told him that he was listening to the same note, he would have laughed. A friend of mine could replicate the same issue with a pair of Audioengine A2s in nearfield (he thanked me profusely for pointing this out to him----he used to love the song), which are also dual-driver speakers, so I am really leaning towards a single-driver solution. At this point, the Omegas seem like a no-brainer for me.
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Or better yet at least in the single driver circle where at least the single driver concept is accepted. Perhaps the overall sales numbers don't warrant mention. Perhaps Omega posters would rather stay in the friendlier confines of their own thread. The same could be said of other speaker circles, but a more balanced impression by venturing out would be welcomed.
The very non-mainstream concept of single driver design keeps the general audio population at bay (just like other non-traditional design concepts). Couple that with the prevalence of SET amplification that pushes the concept further towards the fringe, cheapy little single driver speakers we're all familiar with, and some huge outlandish cabinets (exemplified by horns) and single driver designs have a lots of stigma to overcome. Many audiophiles can be described as being closed minded fanatics and certainly this phenomenon adds to the single driver stigma. Honestly a big part of audio is gear lust and modestly shaped/sized cabinets with a single driver doesn't satisfy that yearning for filling the room with trophies from the big hunts.
I didn't realize I was searching for a single driver solution until I posted here. I certainly didn't know there was a circle devoted to single drivers, or enclosures for that matter. :D
I just want to buy once. My current speakers sound decent and if it wasn't for the distortion I hear in certain frequencies, I would be content for a good while. I think nearfield listening may actually be quite forgiving----you are able to achieve soundstage and imaging from speakers that I don't believe will do this from a "normal" listening position. Mine certainly won't. When I back up from the speakers, the odd distortions go away, but so does the soundstage. Canada Rob completely changed my troubleshooting direction when he mentioned "phase misalignment".
I posted already leaning towards Omegas. I've read great stuff about them, but there is unfortunately not a lot written. I like that they are made in the US and I especially like that they are made in New England. I have family probably a half hour from where they're made (not relevant, I know, but maybe I'll pop by the next time I visit my aunt and uncle :)).
The other speakers I referenced are supposed to perform at the same level as speakers much more expensive. They are also speakers that would probably appeal to folks who listen in the same manner as me. I can't listen to any of these speakers prior to purchasing them, so finding folks that own Omegas and have heard the others, or, better yet, owned the others and switched to Omega Super 3is, is my next best option.
I know I'm not buying a car, but I am trying to buy something I'll keep longer than a car (I've had mine for ten years----it runs well and I'm happy with the stereo).
I am quite happy to embrace a single driver design.
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I've heard most every single driver speaker on the market, some in the high 5 figure range from Voxativ, Feastrex and AES, the Omegas will not be embarrassed by any of them but the Omegas will definitely embarrass every other speaker anywhere near their price. Multi way speakers generally need to be in the 5 figure price range to compete in many aspects of speaker performance.Omega is one of the best values you will find in audio.
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Multi way speakers generally need to be in the 5 figure price range to compete in many aspects of speaker performance.
Would you be willing to elaborate on that?
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I don't listen in the nearfield and the song sounds heavily processed. Not the place to look for natural sounding anything. But I don't hear anything jarring on the note. Seems to fit right in with the rest of the song. My version is HDTracks 5760 kbps and 192 kHz so version might matter.
I must clarify when I listened to that piece, it wasn't on Omega speakers. It was on an Altec ATP3 2.1 system. I clearly heard the problem Flinx99 was hearing, a kind of brief boom to the bass. I've now tried it on an Omega based desktop system and it didn't seem to have any problem that jumped out at me. I still heard it though, but to a lesser degree. The Yes Band seemed to favour the bass lines to be in a higher key which tends to add a slight bloat. Roundabout's tight and articulate bass lines are quite high up the scale for bass.
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I must clarify when I listened to that piece, it wasn't on Omega speakers. It was on an Altec ATP3 2.1 system. I clearly heard the problem Flinx99 was hearing, a kind of brief boom to the bass. I've now tried it on an Omega based desktop system and it didn't seem to have any problem that jumped out at me. I still heard it though, but to a lesser degree. The Yes Band seemed to favour the bass lines to be in a higher key which tends to add a slight bloat. Roundabout's tight and articulate bass lines are quite high up the scale for bass.
Thanks for checking again. I just listened to Roundabout and sure enough, while not as pronounced as in Siberian Khatru, I can hear similar distortions. Did these guys write some of the music to mess with their engineer? :D It only exists in nearfield----headphones played the notes flawlessly (I used Sennheiser HD 598s) and when I stepped back about 12 feet or so the notes sounded normal. The problem with this sound is that once you notice it, you begin to hear it in other music. Thankfully not in all music, though.
When you were listening to the Omega desktop set-up, did you happen to step back from the desktop to give a listen outside of nearfield range?
Is it fair say that in order to categorize a speaker as "reference desktop capable", it must pass what will henceforth be known as the "Siberian Khatru Nearfield Test"? :)
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Would you be willing to elaborate on that?
Gladly,
Maybe Dave will chime in too.
These experiences go back as early as 1990. Yes, I realize aural memory is considered by many to be zilch, so I'll consider them correct. However, the memory of the experience and what it did for/against my enjoyment of it will likely be etched in my memory as long as I have one. It's not my habit to mention other brands negatively but this thread in particular leaves me no choice. The following experiences are in professionally set up sound rooms of dealers. In 1990 in Victoria, B.C. in their best sound room I heard the $3500 (1990 money) Linn Kaber with top of the line Linn front end. They were great, but lit my fire less than any Omega. In 1996 in Kelowna, B.C. I was in a friends store listening to a pair of $4000 (1996 money) Martin Logans with Parasound front end. Same experience. 2003 in Lethbridge Alberta, PMC towers with Musical fidelity front end. Nice, but not Omega. Around 2005 in Lethbridge Alberta, $5000 Martin Logans on two occasions, one with high end Naim gear, and the other with high end YBA gear. Same experience. Don't get me wrong, it all sounded great but to my ear Omega gets so much closer to the music, so much closer to "live".
I would take a basic Decware Super Zen and a pair of Super 3i (let alone Omegas higher models) over any of that aforementioned audio gear and save myself about $10,000+ in the meantime. Not to mention, the superior build quality of the Omega speakers is an added bonus, ditto Decware and many of the audio underground products available today.
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I've heard most every single driver speaker on the market, some in the high 5 figure range from Voxativ, Feastrex and AES, the Omegas will not be embarrassed by any of them but the Omegas will definitely embarrass every other speaker anywhere near their price. Multi way speakers generally need to be in the 5 figure price range to compete in many aspects of speaker performance.Omega is one of the best values you will find in audio.
Thanks. I am encouraged by what I've read in this thread and I feel comfortable with an Omega purchase. Loyal owners are definitely a plus.
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.....and before the train goes off the tracks, let's keep things in perspective : We are all entitled to our own experiences and opinions of them. Good thing we have lots of gear to chose from and can decide what is best for our individual needs / preferences. The key is to explore and gather as much personal experience as possible. :thumb:
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Thanks. I am encouraged by what I've read in this thread and I feel comfortable with an Omega purchase. Loyal owners are definitely a plus.
I too was encouraged by loyal owners of Omegas on this forum. Which is why I bought a pair and consider their speakers exceptional, across the board. Other loyal owners and their selected gear also abound, and I find that encouraging as well.
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Single driver speakers have a coherence that few multi-driver speakers can match (the best in my 40+ years beyond the obvious single driver speakers are small 2-ways, mostly active designs that tend to have more sophisticated crossovers). Different drivers of different designs in different locations with usually far less than perfect crossovers just can't completely blend. Listening near-field this is a critical issue for me.
Single driver designs also seem to be more musical to me. Frankly most multi-driver speakers don't hold my interest with their disjointed/hi-fi sound and I walk out within seconds of show rooms.
Over the years highly defined imaging has become more important to me. Again most multi-driver designs (again, except some small 2-ways) don't seem to image well.
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We are all entitled to our own experiences and opinions of them.
Absolutely! And I can appreciate that Dave was merely expressing his own personal opinion. However I'm still interested in the specifics, particularly what he meant by "many aspects of speaker performance" in the context of the rest of his statement.
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This is how I want to set up a pair of Super 3is (I think these would work better for me than the Desktop version). If anyone has a similar setup with Super 3is, I would really appreciate some feedback on Siberian Khatru by Yes. If the bass notes sound clear throughout the song, I will be psyched. I've got a sub off to the right side of the room in the corner, but I don't think it is contributing much to the sound issue----I really think the bass notes are above where I crossover the sub.
Thanks.
Here's a link to my system:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=2118
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This is how I want to set up a pair of Super 3is (I think these would work better for me than the Desktop version). If anyone has a similar setup with Super 3is, I would really appreciate some feedback on Siberian Khatru by Yes. If the bass notes sound clear throughout the song, I will be psyched. I've got a sub off to the right side of the room in the corner, but I don't think it is contributing much to the sound issue----I really think the bass notes are above where I crossover the sub.
Thanks.
Here's a link to my system:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=2118
Flinx,
I have no desire to sound negative, but your setup needs help. The link shows with the Super 3 Desktop but I've run Super 3is on there too with excellent results. http://desktopaudioboutique.com/desktopstereo.html (http://desktopaudioboutique.com/desktopstereo.html)
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Absolutely! And I can appreciate that Dave was merely expressing his own personal opinion. However I'm still interested in the specifics, particularly what he meant by "many aspects of speaker performance" in the context of the rest of his statement.
Omegas and other top single drivers do many things very well.
- "Coherance" - I'd define as the successful blending of the entire frequency range, single drivers have no issue with drivers in multiple locations or poor crossover performance
- Imaging / Soundstage - single drivers with the right amp and acoustic environment can provide an immersive listening experience that few multi way speakers can match
- Resolution - single drivers often resolve detail multi-way speakers cannot, this is a result of poor crossover components and/or drivers that are incapable of higher resolution. Once you have heard the detail that a simple, but high end, single driver system is capable of you will realize these details are absent on many systems, even expensive ones.
- PRAT - kind of goes with resolution... with no xover, a light cone and a powerful motor a good single driver can react very quickly.
That said, the last system TAD setup at RMAF did every "single driver" thing better than any single driver I've ever heard. But the system cost more than my house. To have a speaker with multiple drivers and a more complicated cabinet, but keeping the same quality as one driver and a simple cabinet, is going to cost more money. To build a crossover that is totally transparent is not easily accomplished and is not cheap.
Also, less expensive single drivers can make some unacceptable compromises in terms of uneven frequency response and other things, but Louis' design of the Omega drivers goes a long way to make these things a non-issue, the only other companies making single drivers that have been able to accomplish this cost a small fortune, like $2500 - $50k per pair, just for the drivers...
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Flinx,
I have no desire to sound negative, but your setup needs help. The link shows with the Super 3 Desktop but I've run Super 3is on there too with excellent results. http://desktopaudioboutique.com/desktopstereo.html (http://desktopaudioboutique.com/desktopstereo.html)
That's a beautiful set-up. Any suggestions are welcome. My desk is in very similar position related to the room. The wall on the left is about the same distance, but I have a bit more room in the back, so my speakers can sit about 10 inches away from the wall. I started with a set of Auralex monitor stands, which positioned my speakers similar to your picture, but I found that I preferred raising them up to get the tweeters at ear level.
I tried placing the speakers closer together, but I have found that once you start using multiple monitors, it is very difficult to go without. I work remotely at times, so end up running two computers at the same time. Also, if you work with Excel, running workbooks on separate monitors is great. I know I am not sitting in an equilateral triangle, but I don't find the soundstage diminished by the distance. I have also tried toeing in the speakers, but again, straight out works ok. The soundstage does not collapse and I am completely anal about that.
Oddlly enough, my only frame of reference is an Acoustic Research set-up powering Wilson Audio speakers, the combination of which sounds awesome to my ears. Maybe the Omegas will let me create a reality show that has a goal of trying to create a poor man's audiophile system by trying to mimic the sound of a great sounding system at a fraction of the price. My wife watches shows like that for interior decorating---why not audio?
Seriously, all comments are welcome---the goal is to improve my sound and I am certainly not going to get in huff because someone points out a mistake I've made. Please keep in mind that the only realistic expense I can make is on the speakers. Right, wrong, or indifferent, my other equipment needs to stay. Wife's rule. :)
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As a first step, I'd do everything in my power to get the speakers out from behind the plane of your computer monitors, then adjust toe-in from there.
Toe-in at the speakers' current positions would just blast more sound at the backs of your monitors.
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If you like the drivers up at ear level, some IsoAcoustic stands would be the ticket in which case I would go with the Super 3i.
http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php (http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php)
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As a first step, I'd do everything in my power to get the speakers out from behind the plane of your computer monitors, then adjust toe-in from there.
Toe-in at the speakers' current positions would just blast more sound at the backs of your monitors.
It isn't apparent from this angle, but the speakers are a hair in front of the monitors. I wanted to get them as far away from my ears as I could manage but still avoid any potential reflections from the speakers. It all comes back to that nasty weird sound. I have to concede that I am not going to fix that particular problem with placement, so I will pull them forward and toe them in. Do you think 45 degrees (or whatever it takes to aim the tweeters straight at my ears) is ideal?
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If you like the drivers up at ear level, some IsoAcoustic stands would be the ticket in which case I would go with the Super 3i. http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php (http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php)
I have read up on those and that is another question I have been pondering. I'm clearly doing the DIY thing with my stands, but I have been trying to do this intelligently. I had two sets of Aurelex monitor isolation pads, so I used those interspersed with ceramic tiles and hard rubber furniture floor protectors. I wanted isolation in addition to height. I have a large desk, so space really isn't too much of a concern. Not that I am planning on marketing my stands anytime soon, but what will Isoacoustics provide that mine won't? I'm not trying to be flip---it's an honest question.
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The Iso stands come with different length riser tubes and tube spacers, which allow you to change the height and angle of the speakers. Not that you can't do that now with what you have, but it won't look as, what's the word... MAcGyver-ish (if you are familar with that old TV series) :D
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The Iso stands come with different length riser tubes and tube spacers, which allow you to change the height and angle of the speakers. Not that you can't do that now with what you have, but it won't look as, what's the word... MAcGyver-ish (if you are familar with that old TV series) :D
I tried paperclips and band-aids first, but MacGyver never had to tackle speaker stands.
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Not that I am planning on marketing my stands anytime soon, but what will Isoacoustics provide that mine won't? I'm not trying to be flip---it's an honest question.
Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics. The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself.
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"Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics. The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself."
I'm in the midst of a somewhat elaborate speakers stand project. Part of the stands include a pair of Isoacoustics stands. By the time I'm done I could have commissioned a custom set of stands to do exactly what I want, but I would have been left with a solution with no future use should I decide to change my current setup. An advantage of Isoacoustics over a homebrew solution is that there is a strong secondary market should your needs change. Isoacoustics stands run about $80 a pair for the desktop version and can be resold for about half that if you wish to change down the road.
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It isn't apparent from this angle, but the speakers are a hair in front of the monitors. I wanted to get them as far away from my ears as I could manage but still avoid any potential reflections from the speakers. It all comes back to that nasty weird sound. I have to concede that I am not going to fix that particular problem with placement, so I will pull them forward and toe them in. Do you think 45 degrees (or whatever it takes to aim the tweeters straight at my ears) is ideal?
I would just adjust toe-in to your liking. I don't think you want the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, but I could be wrong. It depends on the speakers' dispersion characteristics.
My guess is that aiming them somewhere over your shoulders or just outside your shoulders would work well.
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"Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics. The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself."
I'm in the midst of a somewhat elaborate speakers stand project. Part of the stands include a pair of Isoacoustics stands. By the time I'm done I could have commissioned a custom set of stands to do exactly what I want, but I would have been left with a solution with no future use should I decide to change my current setup. An advantage of Isoacoustics over a homebrew solution is that there is a strong secondary market should your needs change. Isoacoustics stands run about $80 a pair for the desktop version and can be resold for about half that if you wish to change down the road.
Agreed. I spent about $15 on these stands when I put them together recently. I already had the pads from earlier setups (I was using them for two sets of speakers at the same time) and the ceramic tiles were in the garage leftover from a bathroom remodel done more than 10 years ago. I did need to run to Home Depot to pick up the floor protectors. There are also silicone pot holders between the speakers and the tile. Bed, Bath, and Beyond
Also, will Isoacoustics support cats jumping on top of the speakers? This is actually a serious concern and is an issue I face on a daily basis.
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I would just adjust toe-in to your liking. I don't think you want the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, but I could be wrong. It depends on the speakers' dispersion characteristics.
My guess is that aiming them somewhere over your shoulders or just outside your shoulders would work well.
I have been quite impressed with the dispersion, actually; even leaning forward with the speakers facing straight out, the soundstage and imaging remain intact and cymbals sound natural to me. Right at my ears may be too much and introduce some harshness. I will test.
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Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics. The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself.
The isoacoustics stands are far better sonically vs any other stand I've ever tried, including for subwoofer use. They make a huge difference.
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"Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics. The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself."
I'm in the midst of a somewhat elaborate speakers stand project. Part of the stands include a pair of Isoacoustics stands. By the time I'm done I could have commissioned a custom set of stands to do exactly what I want, but I would have been left with a solution with no future use should I decide to change my current setup. An advantage of Isoacoustics over a homebrew solution is that there is a strong secondary market should your needs change. Isoacoustics stands run about $80 a pair for the desktop version and can be resold for about half that if you wish to change down the road.
I modded the top plate of my existing diy stands to fit the Isos. Cut the plate down a bit, and installed oak corner trim around the edges, to hold in the Isoacoustics fairly tightly.
As far as these making the speakers cat proof... I don't think so. Only thing that is going to do that is mass.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/537/P2FI42.jpg)
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He could also use something like Blue Tack on both the speakers and the base of the stands. Blue Tack is pretty strong stuff as long as there's enough surface contact. I'm not sure the feet of the Isos would have enough surface area, plus coupling everything together probably goes against the intent of the Isos, but it may be worth a try.
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This is how I want to set up a pair of Super 3is (I think these would work better for me than the Desktop version). If anyone has a similar setup with Super 3is, I would really appreciate some feedback on Siberian Khatru by Yes. If the bass notes sound clear throughout the song, I will be psyched. I've got a sub off to the right side of the room in the corner, but I don't think it is contributing much to the sound issue----I really think the bass notes are above where I crossover the sub.
Thanks
Here's a link to my system:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=2118
Agree with CB, all those monitors as set up make for a very poor audio situation. Replacing all that mess with a giant monitor mounted on the wall behind would go a long way towards improving the sound (as I retired we'd purchased two 40 inch monitors per desk to view architectural drawings, so I know what you mean about the value of big screens). Of course one of those monitors would cost more than your total budget. :duh:
Keep in mind that being located close to the front wall and the desk make for the speakers to function almost as if they are located on floor up against a wall (1/4 space), so bass response is bound to be emphasized and the soundstage compromised. Modern desktop listening involves a flat panel monitor, which act as a freestanding baffle and further interrupts the soundstage and when placed next to a front wall tends to trap and reinforce bass even more. Your multiple screens, close to the wall, is amplifying soundstage and bass issues well beyond normal. Seriously I'd push the screens against the front wall so that the speakers are well out in front of the screens. That should reduce both issues.
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Agree with CB, all those monitors as set up make for a very poor audio situation. Replacing all that mess with a giant monitor mounted on the wall behind would go a long way towards improving the sound (as I retired we'd purchased two 40 inch monitors per desk to view architectural drawings, so I know what you mean about the value of big screens). Of course one of those monitors would cost more than your total budget. :duh:
Keep in mind that being located close to the front wall and the desk make for the speakers to function almost as if they are located on floor up against a wall (1/4 space), so bass response is bound to be emphasized and the soundstage compromised. Modern desktop listening involves a flat panel monitor, which act as a freestanding baffle and further interrupts the soundstage and when placed next to a front wall tends to trap and reinforce bass even more. Your multiple screens, close to the wall, is amplifying soundstage and bass issues well beyond normal. Seriously I'd push the screens against the front wall so that the speakers are well out in front of the screens. That should reduce both issues.
Here's a new pic to help provide some perspective. I will pull the speakers forward--- I can't push the speakers much further back or off the desk they'll go. I should test by taking the side ones off the desk entirety though and see if that helps. Maybe all. If the song remains the same without the monitors, I would have to say it's a nearfield phenomenon.
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I modded the top plate of my existing diy stands to fit the Isos. Cut the plate down a bit, and installed oak corner trim around the edges, to hold in the Isoacoustics fairly tightly.
As far as these making the speakers cat proof... I don't think so. Only thing that is going to do that is mass.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/537/P2FI42.jpg)
Or tacks in blue tack on top of the speakers.
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For those who have a version of the Super 3 on their desktops, a more jarring example of the sound I've referenced is The Ledge, by the Replacements. It's on their album, Pleased to Meet Me. In my setup this song is unbearable and it's because of the bass guitar. No issue with the song on headphones, nor when listening across the room. I pushed my monitors back, pulled my speakers forward and toed them in slightly. I even swapped out my stands. No improvement. If this is a nearfield only problem, I need to get a good feel for how the Super 3s perform as nearfield monitors. I am leaning towards 3is, but if the Desktops solve the issue, I'm open.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=119135;size=huge
Thanks.
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As the problem seems to be isolated to your speakers and it occurs across different songs, I'm suspect that something is wrong with the speakers or something in your room (possibly on your desk or inside a desk drawer) is vibrating at certain frequencies.
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As the problem seems to be isolated to your speakers and it occurs across different songs, I'm suspect that something is wrong with the speakers or something in your room (possibly on your desk or inside a desk drawer) is vibrating at certain frequencies.
I would completely agree if I couldn't replicate this issue on other systems and different environments (all nearfield). I'm completely OCD about vibrations, which is another reason I have DIY tank stands. :)
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I notice bloated mid bass in that song which I find very annoying. It wasn't on an Omega based system I tried it on, but my little Altec ATP3 2.1. In your latest picture your system looks better set up than in the previous image. I would keep the lamps from heating up the speakers - from here it looks like they could. Speakers don't like that kind of heat.
I personally like JLMs suggestion of one big monitor vs multiples, and with that big monitor set back against the wall. I keep my 23" Dell close to the back wall so the speakers aren't compromised by it.
One thing you will notice with the Super 3i and Super 3 Desktop is the linearity of the frequency response, hence no mid bass hump like your B&Ws likely have (and my Altec likely has). When I tried the earlier Yes Band song on the Omegas, the irritation you spoke of was less (taking the poor recording quality into account).
I realize you're hearing this from an Omega rep, but nothing I've heard touches Omega on the desktop. With solid state or tube.
One more thing. If you can, try a different amp and/or DAC. It can make a difference too.
Bottom line, I think your problem is a combination of 3 things. The setup in general, possible bass bloat from the B&Ws, and the recording quality of the songs in question. If your amp has a lower damping factor than is usual for solid state, that could be a factor too, but I highly doubt it. Musical Fidelity has been designing and building amps for a long time and should know what they are doing.
I suggest you try a set of Omegas on a 30 day return. Little to lose in that.
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30 day trial is the perfect suggestion CR. :thumb:
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I notice bloated mid bass in that song which I find very annoying. It wasn't on an Omega based system I tried it on, but my little Altec ATP3 2.1. In your latest picture your system looks better set up than in the previous image. I would keep the lamps from heating up the speakers - from here it looks like they could. Speakers don't like that kind of heat.
I personally like JLMs suggestion of one big monitor vs multiples, and with that big monitor set back against the wall. I keep my 23" Dell close to the back wall so the speakers aren't compromised by it.
One thing you will notice with the Super 3i and Super 3 Desktop is the linearity of the frequency response, hence no mid bass hump like your B&Ws likely have (and my Altec likely has). When I tried the earlier Yes Band song on the Omegas, the irritation you spoke of was less (taking the poor recording quality into account).
I realize you're hearing this from an Omega rep, but nothing I've heard touches Omega on the desktop. With solid state or tube.
One more thing. If you can, try a different amp and/or DAC. It can make a difference too.
Bottom line, I think your problem is a combination of 3 things. The setup in general, possible bass bloat from the B&Ws, and the recording quality of the songs in question. If your amp has a lower damping factor than is usual for solid state, that could be a factor too, but I highly doubt it. Musical Fidelity has been designing and building amps for a long time and should know what they are doing.
I suggest you try a set of Omegas on a 30 day return. Little to lose in that.
Thanks----I just hate the idea of ordering a set of speakers that Louis has to build with the thought that I might return them if I'm not happy with a fix that I "hope" is resolved by his speakers. I have tried other AMPS and DACs and other speakers. Same results. I can't blame it on the recording, either, because it sounds pretty good through decent headphones.
Do you have the desktop on your website still setup like that? Do you have Tidal? I actually think Tidal might be great for an audio dealer----you can get good sound from it and it would allow all customers to hear pretty much whatever they want rather then whatever they're offered. Anyway, I mention Tidal and your setup because if you have time, it would be great to get your impression of The Ledge, by The Replacments, playing through Omegas on the desktop. This song has that same bloat all through it, but only in nearfield. Hopefully Louis will give you a kickback from my purchase. : ). Too bad I'm having a nearfield issue that I'm trying to resolve with his entry level speakers.
Editing this because I forgot to mention that I'm using LED bulbs in my lamps. Speakers aren't the only things that don't like heat. I'm in Houston and I've found that even lightbulbs can contribute to the overall heat in a room. I can unscrew the LED bulbs while they are on, if I'd like.
Thanks.
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I just wanted to say thank you. After experimentation based upon recommendations from this thread, I realize that I am dealing mostly with reflections. Walls, desk, and monitors. I'm buying headphones. Kidding. I am now leaning towards the Omega Desktops, though. I can at least avoid the rear bass port, which will hopefully help with reflections from the back wall. I don't have a clue about the desk, but I will figure it out.
Jim