[toobluvr]

Looking to open up the top end, and get more sparkle and air.
Currently using MAC CuQ sound pipes.  They worked nicely on VA Bachs,  but things sound a bit dark and shut-in on the Brines.  No complaints about rest of the range, mids sound particularly nice and bass is surprisingly punchy and "there" for such a small driver that covers most of the FR.

I've had many multi-driver systems, but I'm new to the SD world.  Is this their character and the sacrifice one must make in exchange for their coherency and midrange purity?  Or is it fixabled without damaging the rest of the range, or going for a supertweeter?  On that note, any supertweeter recs without breaking the bank?  Would the one offered by AV123 provide what I seek and integrate OK?

I don't believe rest of the gear is at fault, since when placed into other systems there is no shortage of treble information:

Vista Audio el34 integrated
Cary 308T cdp
Audio Art IC-3

Thanks for all input!

[Bemopti123]

Did you break the drivers enough?  Fostex drivers are known to require a good 500-600 hours in order to settle until then, perhaps you are still hearing the driver's transformation.  Of course, you could have already broken them up, then, perhaps you question will be valid. 

Paul

[toobluvr]

Don't know Paul.....
I bought them used.

 

[nature boy]

I am using Clear Day silver cables on my Hornshoppe Horns with a Decware tube amplifier.  Just luv em'.
These are available on Agon from Paul Laudati (user name Vonwaffen).  Paul gives you in inhome trial and will send you singles and a double shotgun run to try out.

He is a really wonderful guy.

NB

[rjbond3rd]

Personally, I'd go for the Fostex FT17H at Madisound.  Why not contact Bob though?  Here's his site: http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1

[Bob_Brines]

Since you report the speakers to be "dark", my first suggestion would be to reduce the value of the resistor in the BSC filter. Did I build your speakers or were they DIY?

I am not a fan of boutique speaker cables. 16ga zip cord -- the oxygen free stuff you buy in the Walmart auto section is the standard to beat. I use this with SS amps. With my T-amps I use a star-wound 4 wire Cat5 cable primarily because it is NOT zip cord. For demos with my 6BX7 p-p amp, I prefer a single pair of Cat5. You might start here, as the DF of your amp might be similar. Basically, the higher the DF of the amp, the thiner the speaker cables.

While I don't find that speaker cables make much difference, I do find that interconnects do. With my 6BX7's, I use a silver in teflon IC.

Bob

[bacobits1]

Hey John,
Didn't you say Steve changed the filtering in those?

Also why don't you give these a try? Supposed to be super revealing.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50447.0

My tastes here must be different, (they are, I'm less fussy) I don't believe I'm missing anything in the high end.
I'm also using solid core silver interconnects from Home Grown Audio. I always have for a long time now.
Speaker cables are Kimber 8TC, yes on the 4 ohm taps on my Vista. LOL!
I'm also using Planet Ten's Phase plugs but that would possibly cut the high end back very slightly and also cutting the beaming effect for which they were designed and sometimes heard.


Hi Bob, hope all is well.

Den

[toobluvr]

Hi Bob,

Thanks a lot for the helpful reply!

I bought them from MAC - SteveH, a member here.
He told me you built them, not DIY, and as Den suggests he described them as having "upgraded components in LC".   Being the non-techie that I am, I inquired further about what the LC was.  He replied "the frequency 'hump' compensator".

I still don't fully understand what that is and how it impacts the sound,  but that's the extent of my knowledge of this particular pair.

"the higher the DF of the amp, the thiner the speaker cables."


silly question, but what is the DF of the amp?   

It's funny how in this hobby we all hear differently, and have different experiences.  I generally find that switching speaker cables has a greater sonic effect than switching interconnects.

Thanks!
John

[mcgsxr]

I think it is likely damping factor.

[aragon63]

 Try  Mapleshade Clearview Double  Helix......

[toobluvr]

I think it is likely damping factor.

Ahhhh......of course!
I'm a techno-dummie, but I should have figured that one out.   

I know what DF is, but I had no idea of the relationship between it and the ideal size of the cable....as Bob suggests above.

[Bob_Brines]

Different people hear differently. Different rooms behave differently. The FT-1600 is plenty detailed to show the character of your amp. So....

1. The stock contour filter is simply 1.5mH || 6ohm. This gives 4dB of baffle step correction and what I consider a nicely balanced speaker. If the values have been changed in your speakers, the results are going to be different.

2. If you really think that the top end needs help, try putting a capacitor in parallel with the filter. Start with .68uF. If a cap doesn't do it for you, then you will have to go to a tweeter. I have had success with the FE207E/FT17H combo. I'm too old to need a tweet with the FE167E.

3. My personal FT-1600's have the Planet10 phase plugs installed. I have a short app note about this on my web site. Bottom line is that this particular phase plug puts a hole in the response ~6kHz. This happens to be where sibilance in female voice is. The effect is to soften spitty singers.

4. You really should try the 16ga zip cord. At the very least, it will give you a reference to judge your other cables.

Good luck.
Bob

[JLM]

While single driver speakers do emphasize the midrange, multi-driver designs often emphasize high and low frequencies (to be more initially "impressive"). 

Another consideration is the high frequency beaming that a single driver (especially those without whizzer cones) will exhibit.  Have you played around with aiming the speakers?  My FTA-2000 speakers are aimed just behind my head (just in front of my head sounds best from "the" chair, but I spend lots of time at the desk where I sit directly behind "the" chair, so it makes a better overall compromise.

I bought a Behringer DEQ 2496 and will someday send it in for mods.  The idea is to replace the compensation circuit (zobel/baffle step) in the digital realm, include room EQ, and provide an extremely direct connection from my monoblocks directly to the drivers.  I'll be sure to report back when I complete this.  I'm also considering having the EnABLE mods done to the driver cones.  But wifey was out of work for 6 months last year, she then took a pay cut, the cold weather is costing me, and taxes have yet to be figured.

[Wind Chaser]

JLM is right on both accounts.  If you can point them more towards you, there should be a noticeable increase in the upper frequencies.  Although considered a taboo by many, there's nothing wrong with using some EQ. 

If you're already using silver cables, I wouldn't be to optimistic about solving this particular concern with another cable.  You are far better off trying either of JLM's two suggestions.

[jkelly]

I have really enjoyed the Alpha Core MII flat speaker cables on my
1600 MKII's - (which I still love).  These are a warmer cable
so I don't think they would work for you.  Great bass.

I use the RWA Clari-T amp on these speakers and I think that amp
gives the 1600's a little hotter top end and more detail in the soundstage.
This helps the single driver.  Anyway that has been a good combo for me.

I do agree with Bob that the interconnects are key here and I
have been using SAS Audiolabs with these speakers.  They push
more top end and detail out of the single driver. I have had the
MAC also which are close to the SAS.

[Bob_Brines]

Ah, yes! Digital EQ.

It is an unfortunate fact that the audio system must be EQ'd to the room. There are two approaches to doing this. One is to pick and choose components that are sufficiently colored to complement the room. The other is to take a collection of reasonably flat components and either actively or passively EQ them to the room. Either way, the results are the same. Only the philosophy is different.

I choose to go the latter route. I run a computer front end to a DAC to a T-amp to the speaker drivers. I have removed all of the passive components from the speakers. I do the EQ on the computer with a 32 band digital equalizer called "Aqualizer". I can do some amazing things with this setup. I can make a DX3 sound like an F200A. I have pairs of 206's and 207's in identical BR's and they sound the same.

The neat thing about digital EQ is that you have a degree of control that is not possible with passive EQ. I quess this could be one of the reasons that I run zip cord for speaker cables. Rather than trying to find cables with the right sound, I just EQ in what I need.

I know. Vinyl vs CD. But if you have decent rips and a decent DAC, the results are quite good. Give it a try.

Bob

[JLM]

I much prefer to get the room "right" before adding EQ.  IMO EQ should be used for minor tweaking.  Keep in mind that EQ can only be adjusted to a specific listening location within the room.  My room and set up follows the Cardias recommendations.  With "beamy" speakers room interactions are minimized, so the room treatments I've added have made only a slight difference.

Trying to balance out components/room to arrive at a overall neutral sound (with no ill effects) would be nearly impossible.  OTOH most only want to hear what they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

The vast majority of audiophiles have spent tons of money on equipment that is used in relatively crummy rooms.  Far better to simply use headphones for critical listening.

[rodge827]

John

Look into Crimson Music Link speaker cables. Creston Funk at Austin Hifi will set you up with a demo pair. I've had zip cord, Audio Consulting cryo solid silver, Mapleshade Golden Double Helix Plus, Various MIT, and the Crimson has bested all of those by far.
I have all tube gear with silver IC's and Omega Super 8 Alnico XRS speakers. Creston is a great guy, give him a call and hear what you have been missing.

Chris

http://www.austinhifi.com/navigation%20page.html

512-236-9100

[JLM]

Over the past 10 years I've used Kimber Kable TC-4, single pair multi-strand CAT5 (better mid/treble clarity, but loss of bass), cryo'd single pair single strand plenum rated CAT5 (further improvements to mid/treble clarity, got some bass back), and twisted pair Element Cables (so far best in all regards to any of the above).  Prior I used zip cord, then tried "real" speaker cables (unknown brands/models) like everyone from the 70's and 80's were doing.

Older ears won't miss the treble sparkle.  Silver should brighten things up.  Expensive cabling is not my cup of tea.  I've A/B'd $1,000 cables, could easily tell the difference, but which was better?  And in most cases the money could provide lots more bang for the buck elsewhere in the system.  For your speakers, I'd try to keep it under $100/pair.