[Diamond Dog]

Speakers. Get some used PMC's and never look back. When you have more cash to spend, then get the Torus.

FWIW, in 2010 I upgraded : a) preamp ( Sumo Athena solid-state -nice but noisy-to Manley Jumbo Shrimp tube- ridiculous bang for the buck but now costs a lot more than it did then ), b) source ( Arcam Delta 270 to Bryston BCD-1- night and day difference and the Arcam was no slouch ), c) speakers ( KEF Reference 103/4 w/ KEF Kube to PMC FB1i ) and finally amps ( Arcam Alpha 9 & 9P biamped system - punched well above it's weight - to Bryston 7BSST2 ) with IC's, speaker cables, power conditioning, stand and room remaining the only constants. In spite of what I'm sure most of you would describe as a quantum leap forward especially with the amps, in terms of overall improvement in sonics the biggest improvement was with the speakers. This is not theoretical nor is this me pursuing a particular agenda or imposing a personal bias. I basically re-built the whole damned thing bit by bit so I know of what I speak because I lived it. There is a reason that it is widely-accepted that upgrading your speakers will be the most noticable sonic upgrade that you can make in your system- go out and listen to some speakers ( PMC or whatever else blows your hair back - the more you hear, the better ) preferably with your own existing gear and see for yourself. As James Tanner says : the demo is everything. Everything else is " only howling at the moon...full of sound & fury, signifying nothing".

D.D.     

[PRELUDE]

And,yes the room sure and the TORUS is a must have in case if you would like to upgrade like this

[werd]

Everyone here seems to be undermining the Totems. I think they are great.....implying any full range speaker  will be an upgrade. lol.

Look into an rm10 and a sub. I think you can get the rm10 in 240, its not on the website but its possible using 2 5amp 120volt phase. This is definitely under 3k.

You might even have enough for a good transport left over. If you want more bass try and find a marantz 9600 used. Great transport for bass shy systems.

[audioman999]

FWIW, in 2010 I upgraded : a) preamp ( Sumo Athena solid-state -nice but noisy-to Manley Jumbo Shrimp tube- ridiculous bang for the buck but now costs a lot more than it did then ), b) source ( Arcam Delta 270 to Bryston BCD-1- night and day difference and the Arcam was no slouch ), c) speakers ( KEF Reference 103/4 w/ KEF Kube to PMC FB1i ) and finally amps ( Arcam Alpha 9 & 9P biamped system - punched well above it's weight - to Bryston 7BSST2 ) with IC's, speaker cables, power conditioning, stand and room remaining the only constants. In spite of what I'm sure most of you would describe as a quantum leap forward especially with the amps, in terms of overall improvement in sonics the biggest improvement was with the speakers. This is not theoretical nor is this me pursuing a particular agenda or imposing a personal bias. I basically re-built the whole damned thing bit by bit so I know of what I speak because I lived it. There is a reason that it is widely-accepted that upgrading your speakers will be the most noticable sonic upgrade that you can make in your system- go out and listen to some speakers ( PMC or whatever else blows your hair back - the more you hear, the better ) preferably with your own existing gear and see for yourself. As James Tanner says : the demo is everything. Everything else is " only howling at the moon...full of sound & fury, signifying nothing".

D.D.   

Diamond Dog - What made you decide to not go a 4bsst2 route with OB1i rather and than the 7bsst2 with FB1i?

[werd]

Also

I see a lot of beauty in this guy's system all ready. He has the b100 with the dac!! and a pair of totem model ones. I could live with this np. The b100 would be great for driving monitors and let a future sub power its own. There is so much upgradeable potential here. He needs power conditioning and this is where i would start, but with 3k he should have lots left over for a sub. His system is ripe for meaningful upgrades.

What he shouldn't do is reinvent his system with new speakers,especially the pmcs. I like the ob1 lots, and everytime i hear them i get pissy about the price (because i would like to try them out). If i were going to use PMCs i would want tons of powers, way more than what the b100 has in SS. These are the conditions that pmc shine in Solid State. So really in my view a pmc recommendation is just reinventing his system and not offering any upgradable suggestions to what he already has.

If he went by way of my suggestion he would be hearing his system at a full potential. Here he could make a more informed decision  if or what he would want to improve with speaker changes latr on.

[werd]

from which some really thick wires come into your house.

So WTF would an extra smallish transformer achieve?

Nap.

Well if you went and tried it i am hoping it would curtail your habit of commenting on things before you try or hear it. It doesn't matter what anyone says if you don't try it yourself you will never get past just making assumptions that aren't true.

[Napalm]

Well if you went and tried it i am hoping it would curtail your habit of commenting on things before you try or hear it. It doesn't matter what anyone says if you don't try it yourself you will never get past just making assumptions that aren't true.

Werd, did you try the celestial music as I recommended?

Nap. 

[JustAudio]

Hi all, hope its ok if I tag on this thread as I have some questions on upgrading my system as well.

My system as follows: project tt, bryston bp 25, 14b sst and thiel 2.4.

I have an offer to change my 3 year old thiel 2.4 to a 1 year old pmc ob1i for $2000. Would you think this is a good upgrade or would I be better off keeping the thiels and the $2k? Thanks much for your feedback. I have heard the pmc ob1i and love it, but I am not able to make a direct comparison between the ob1i and thiels in the same setup.

Hey guys, any thoughts on this? Understand that this has to do with personal preference, but want to get some other feedback as well. Do let me know if this should belong to a separate thread. Thanks!

[James Tanner]

Hey guys, any thoughts on this? Understand that this has to do with personal preference, but want to get some other feedback as well. Do let me know if this should belong to a separate thread. Thanks!

Hi JustAudio,

Can you give us an idea of what you like and dislike about the Thiels?

james

[Abe Sonics]

There are advantages to monitors over full range such a clearer mids and highs. If you want  bass in a full range speaker the problem of integration of the lower bass poses a tradeoff for the higher frequencies. And often horrendous room issues. Good bass is one of the biggest challenges in designing full range speakers. And in audio in general.
Seperate cabinets for the woofer and mid/tweeter have been offered as a solution. Or extremely rigid cabinets. Metals, many layers of piano laquers,etc. All very expensive!

The cheapest and best solution for mid and high freqency lovers may be great monitors and a solid musical woofer like the Rel B3 at $2,000. Combined with a smaller Torus power supply @ $1000+.

[Levi]

There are advantages to monitors over full range such a clearer mids and highs. If you want  bass in a full range speaker the problem of integration of the lower bass poses a tradeoff for the higher frequencies. And often horrendous room issues. Good bass is one of the biggest challenges in designing full range speakers. And in audio in general.

A poorly designed full-range speakers maybe.  In fact, I heard poorly designed stand mounts that were distorted when asked to play lower notes than they were capable of handling. 

A good Full-range speakers are more fun to listen to.  One that has great mid-range, sound staging and a great beat you can dance to them.

Having said that, one cannot generalize the advantage of stand mounts vs full range speakers.  If you have the space and $$, I would go full range.  Did I say, they are much more fun to listen to!?!

[Abe Sonics]

Generally speaking because of problems with deep bass vibration in floor standers "small monitors usually focus and image better than larger loudspeakers" -Sam Tellig Sam's Space Stereophile Oct. 1999 Vol.22. No.10

[Abe Sonics]

Thats why Magico has designed speakers that are all aluminum to eliminate as much distortion causing vibration from the deep bass and its effect on the mids and highs. Or Verity Audio has 2 separate cabinets one for the bass drivers and another for the midrange/tweeter.

[audioman999]

Thank you everyone for all of your input.  you have given me lots to think about in planning my upgrades.

I am currently borrowing a sub from a home theater set up to play around with to see how well i can get it integrated into the system/room.  So far I like what i hear, and that would be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

Other than additional bass, another factor driving me towards possibly upgrading to floorstanding speakers, and I am open to all recommendations, is that my wife is beginning to tire of the stands.  They were fine in a seperate listening room but are now out in the open so they may have to go.  Given that relatively rare event of my wife approving/suggesting an upgrade i thought i would jump on it while the iron is hot.

I'm trying to line up a demo of a pair of PMC FB1+ for $2k CDN which would leave money left over for a Torus.  Haven't seen too many PMCs for sale so i'm unsure of what a good price would be on the speaker.  Any input?

With regards to other floorstanders i am open to other suggestions, originally suggested PMC because of all the feedback on the board, but would try B&W, Thiel, PSB or others.  Any recommendations would be great.

Also, in moving towards floorstanding speakers, like the FB1 or B&W804  or something like an ob1 or B&W 803d in the future, would the B100sst be able to drive them properly?  or would i need to biamp with an additional 2B or greater, or a standalone 4b.

Thanks

[BrystonFan]

I can add my $0.02...
Bryston works well with B&W.
I had 602s S2 with the 9BSST, then upgraded to 805N & 4BSST2 (nice).
I'm currently using the new 804D & 4BSST2 (wow).
The Bryston gear is very revealling especially when paired with the various Thiel,B&W,PMC,Sonus Faber etc...

[Mag]

>>Also, in moving towards floorstanding speakers, like the FB1 or B&W804  or something like an ob1 or B&W 803d in the future, would the B100sst be able to drive them properly?  or would i need to biamp with an additional 2B or greater, or a standalone 4b.<<

IMO the B100 SST could probably drive the FB1 sufficiently. But for other brand speakers if you play your music at the decibel levels I do, which is pretty loud. Then the B100 lacks power to drive the bass. At lower spl's of let's say 85 to 90 decibels the B100 will drive 'em.

 A 3B SST or 3B SST2 will be enough power but the 4B is a wiser purchase for potential resale value.

[Levi]

Also, in moving towards floorstanding speakers, like the FB1 or B&W804  or something like an ob1 or B&W 803d in the future, would the B100sst be able to drive them properly?  or would i need to biamp with an additional 2B or greater, or a standalone 4b.

Thanks

I have driven my PMC OB1i with a pair of McIntosh MC-60 tube monos.  They are rated at 60Watts.  Plenty loud and satisfying.  The B100 will surely rock the house! 

[JustAudio]

Hi JustAudio,

Can you give us an idea of what you like and dislike about the Thiels?

james

James, I love the soundstage depth and imaging of the thiels. Not that the mids of the thiels is lacking or anything, but I would like a more flawless midrange. Hmm it seems that spending $2000 and trading the thiel cs2.4 may nohave much of an upgrade.     

[James Tanner]

James, I love the soundstage depth and imaging of the thiels. Not that the mids of the thiels is lacking or anything, but I would like a more flawless midrange. Hmm it seems that spending $2000 and trading the thiel cs2.4 may nohave much of an upgrade.   

The PMC's will sound more 'full bodied' than the Thiel's.

james

[Mag]

>>I have driven my PMC OB1i with a pair of McIntosh MC-60 tube monos.  They are rated at 60Watts.  Plenty loud and satisfying.  The B100 will surely rock the house! <<


My experience with Paradigm Studio 100's is that they are a power hungry speaker when it comes to bass. Don't know if these other brands need lots of power but assume with the extra bass drivers that the power demands would be similar to 100's.

I used different amps even in bi-amp configuration rated at 100 watts. Even though they drive the speaker the bass is boomy and sounds like @$$. Bryston with its high current ability is what is needed to drive the bass so that it is fast and clean, not lagging.

My 3B ST will clip with the 100's at my preferred listening volume. I clipped the 3B SST a few times, but that was caused by having a graphic equalizer in the chain. I have yet to see the 3B SST2 clip. I have a 4 ohm load on it and at times the decibel level can be a 100 decibels, 110 decibels C weighted which is lots of bass!

So the B100 at 100 wpc would be comparable to the 3B ST in power output. Not enough, for higher spl bass without clipping.