AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Hollis Audio Labs => Topic started by: HAL on 27 Nov 2012, 08:28 pm
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Since folks seem to be interested in the possibility of the replacement to the MS-1, I am starting a thread to gauge interest in to what people want.
Here is a list of specs that I have investigated so far:
Intel Atom N2800 dual core processor with Intel graphics and chipset
Use of mSATA 60GB SSD drive
8GB of DDR3 memory
Internal DVD drive for ripping CD's to an external user drive
Internal 802.11N WiFi
Gigabit Ethernet connection
HDMI and SVGA video connections
Foobar2000 preloaded
Exact Audio Copy preloaded
Fanless system
All aluminum chassis with black brushed anodized finish
Windows 8 OS
Price is $799.00 + shipping. PayPal fee of 4% if used for payment.
I have found a system that fits those specs. I still have some questions in to the MFG about some of the specs, but should have answers shortly.
There will only be one configuration to make it simple for logistics.
Please post feedback in this thread about ideas.
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Will the cost be about the same as the MS-1?
Will this unit run on a 12VDC battery, as well? If so, for how long?
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The cost would go up as the basic units are more expensive.
I have asked the question about having 12VDC power. That is an answer that I am waiting for from the mfg.
One unit that I am looking at has a power requirement of 16 watts, 12VDC @ 1.33 amps. The Amp-hour rating of the battery will dictate the life in hours.
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Here is a picture of one of the possibilities for the MS-2.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71465)
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HAL, looks great. I'll throw some ideas out there. Many of the things out there (e.g. Sonore Music Server) do offer upgrades above and beyond the basic unit.
- Linear PS upgrade
- Battery Power upgrade
- Blu-Ray Drive over the standard DVD as an upgrade
How about DoP (and I'm not talking about me :green:) http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard
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Phil,
The graphics system for low power operation in the machines I have seen are not fast enough for Blu-Ray. There were very few requests by people that purchased them for Music Servers for HTPC operation. That is why I am looking at this machine as a pure music server.
At this power level a linear power supply option is easy. Problem is that all PC's these days have internal switching power supplies to drop the voltage from either 19VDC or 12VDC to the 5VDC and lower supplies needed. This is what I have seen in the measurements I made recently.
One way to solve that for USB DAC devices is what I posted in the PI Audio Group thread today. Dave's DISCREET USB cables can reduce the issue of USB power supply noise on external devices. The external 5VDC powered DISCREET is for USB powered devices. The standard DISCREET USB cable is for externally powered USB DAC's.
DoP is not a problem. The HQ Player software and a DSD compatible DAC work well. Tried it here with a DIY DAC I built and workes just fine with the MS-1 hardware. I had a problem with Foobar2000 doing this and it was reported. Hopefully they correct the issue. In the mean time, Foobar2000 does very well playing back DSD data as 24bit/176.4KHz PCM. Getting the files from SACD is the issue and you have that issue under control.
Battery power is also not a problem. Dave's BatteryBUSS with a large AGM battery works well. Tried it with the MS-1. Waiting on feedback about the unit I posted a picture about. The MB is supposed to run on 12VDC as an option.
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Thanks, did not notice the product (DISCREET USB cables) on their website, unless I missed it. Is their a particular thread with more info? Does it use a particular 5V power supply (I have 3 linear 5V ones already)? I'm fine with it as a music server only. I was actually thinking more about file playback/back-up of files (storage capacity) with a Blu-Ray drive as I didn't expect it to be optimized for video quality. I like the idea of a drive to some extent but could not one just rip them to the external drive or a USB thumb drive just as easily (and not deal with moving drive parts) and would not the standard clock in a DVD drive be 48k vs 44.1k (I know with DVD/universal players not in a computer that is an issue as most manufacturers feel 48k is close enough)? If it comes that way, that is fine as I'm looking forward to the product. I guess I have to catch up on some other stuff too
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Phil,
Dave did discuss it in one of thread. Not sure if it was on the PI Audio Group. He brought one to RMAF. I bought that one from him. Also had him make one that works with my BatteryBUSS later. They are not on his website that I know of.
I have purposely stayed away from optical media as backup. The external hard drives are more robust. Getting another 1TB USB drive for data backup runs about $100. They are also faster than the optical media for copying. With six external USB parts, with two being high power USB ports no problem adding extra drives for backup.
I have recommended an extra 1TB USB hard drive as backup to all the folks that own a MS-1. This way they always have two copied incase something happens to one. To much work to loose!
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I have recommended an extra 1TB USB hard drive as backup to all the folks that own a MS-1. This way they always have two copied incase something happens to one. To much work to loose!
I'll be backing up two 3TB drives with others sometime in the next month or so and I'm in the process (about a third thru) of backing up SACD ISO files on another 3TB onto Blu-Rays. Then, I'm going to get really quiet fanless 3TB hard drives to use. Way to much work to risk losing. I got my PS3 back from laser replacement last Friday but have not even tried it yet. Still have about 100 more SACDs to get to.
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I would not want an internal drive ... I will be connecting to an external NAS NTFS formatted.
I would also prefer a faster processor for more money unless there is a sonic reason for going with this processor ...
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I'll throw out some "dumb as a bag of rocks" questions:
How do I input? (Assume I need some sort of iGadget or smart phone.)
Don't I need a screen?
Would it come ready to go?
Will it ever need a "full reboot"?
Can it simply/easily pickup audio web streams?
How does this compare to a Dune (other than the superior personal service)?
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I'll throw out some "dumb as a bag of rocks" questions:
How do I input? (Assume I need some sort of iGadget or smart phone.)
Don't I need a screen?
Would it come ready to go?
Will it ever need a "full reboot"?
Can it simply/easily pickup audio web streams?
How does this compare to a Dune (other than the superior personal service)?
If it is like the previous version it will have a wireless keyboard. Yes, you need a screen if it is like the previous version. It is a PC which will run on Windows 8.
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I would not want an internal drive ... I will be connecting to an external NAS NTFS formatted.
I would also prefer a faster processor for more money unless there is a sonic reason for going with this processor ...
Sunil,
My philosophy of Music Server design is to have the lowest power processor that works well. The lower power supply draw, the lower the electrical noise level inside the system. This is why I choose low power processors. This usually also means less computing power. The Atom processors are very capable and easily handle the Music Server task. One machine has a power draw of 16 watts, 1/3 less than the MS-1. Mostly due to the graphics processor being a low power design.
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JLM, Phil's response if pretty close.
It needs a keyboard and mouse for setup. You can use a WiFi device for remote control. The one with the most flexibility so far as far as random file access has been PC's running IE9 or IE10.
If you loose power the system will need to be rebooted. I have not run the latest ideas in units for weeks on end since one is not selected. The MS-1 was running Windows 7 and very stable. I never had to reboot it when playing music, or between.
Does that answer your questions?
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The MS-1 was easy to use and optimized for music. I bought a PC with lots of processing power with the intent of doing a music server. HAL's box is a much better solution from all aspects. I can still use my PC for hi-rez downloads or surf the web. We had a meet over someone's house not that long ago and luckily HAL came over too to resolve an issue. It is much better to have something optimized for music playback rather than a PC used for everything else.
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JLM is asking some great questions because many of us are very new to the music server trend and we really don't know how all of the pieces of the puzzle fit together. It would be very helpful if someone could briefly explain what to do once you have an MS-2 in hand. For instance, I assume I would need a USB DAC, but I'm not sure. What else do I need? What software do I need to purchase and why? Can I use my phone or a tablet to control the music server? If so, how? Can I connect my TV to the server via HDMI and use it as my monitor or does that create excessive noise or some other problem? Even before the MS-2 is available, should I begin ripping my CDs to an external hard drive? If so, what's the best way to do that?
Can someone dumb it down for us or send us a link where this stuff is clearly explained? Thanks.
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Early B,
The MS-2 would come pre installed with Exact Audio Copy to allow the user to rip CD's to WAV or FLAC files. I integrated it into the system to make it easy for the user to get started building their music library.
To setup the Music Server, the user just needs a Monitor that is HDMI or SVGA compatible, USB Keyboard and USB Mouse. The Logitech K400 wireless keyboard trackpad combo is my favorite. Makes it easy to use remotely.
It is designed to work with a user's external USB DAC of choice. The issue is not all DAC's are created equal, and I consult with the user to try and pre-install the USB software driver before shipping.
If you want to access the library remotely there are also options for that. Depends on what the user wants to do. One example is using the system to drive an external Squeezebox Touch for music replay from one library in multiple locations.
I recommend that any user has a separate drive for data backup. Ripping CD's takes a long time and you do not want to have to start over again if the only drive goes bad.
Hopefully this is a start to the explanations you are looking for.
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Early B,
The MS-2 would come pre installed with Exact Audio Copy to allow the user to rip CD's to WAV or FLAC files. I integrated it into the system to make it easy for the user to get started building their music library.
To setup the Music Server, the user just needs a Monitor that is HDMI or SVGA compatible, USB Keyboard and USB Mouse. The Logitech K400 wireless keyboard trackpad combo is my favorite. Makes it easy to use remotely.
It is designed to work with a user's external USB DAC of choice. The issue is not all DAC's are created equal, and I consult with the user to try and pre-install the USB software driver before shipping.
If you want to access the library remotely there are also options for that. Depends on what the user wants to do. One example is using the system to drive an external Squeezebox Touch for music replay from one library in multiple locations.
I recommend that any user has a separate drive for data backup. Ripping CD's takes a long time and you do not want to have to start over again if the only drive goes bad.
Hopefully this is a start to the explanations you are looking for.
This is a great start. Thanks.
What does the simplest setup look like? Once the files have been stored on the MS-2, I assume it's MS-2 to USB DAC to preamp to amp. And the control of playback and volume is from a phone or tablet via bluetooth???? Do I need something like a Squeezebox for wireless connectivity? Is there a way to get around having a need for a keyboard, mouse, and monitor for song selection?
Can you describe your setup?
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Early B,
The way I use the MS-1 at this time, which will be true for the MS-2, is to place the MS-1 next to my listening position to use a 24" LED monitor to control playback via wireless keyboard and track pad. a 15' USB cable goes from the MS-1 to a M2Tech Evo via I2S Bus to my DIY DAC. The 1TB drive is with the MS-1 beside my location.
To make is easier I have also used a PC Netbook running Windows 7 and IE9 to remotely run the MS-1 and have random access to the music library. This remote capability comes setup on Foobar2000 and just needs the MS-1 IP address to talk to the network. It comes up as a webpage on the PC for remote control.
There is also an app for Android that allows remote control via an Android phone via playlists. This is not random file selection. Works if you like playlists.
Foobar2000 does support Apple products as remotes, but I have no way to verify the operation, so I do not install it.
I run Squeezebox Media Server on the MS-1 downstairs to remotely access the same music folder on my Touch in the upstairs system via my WiFi network.
The simplest setup is a MS-1/MS-2 with monitor, keyboard and mouse. A USB DAC connected to the MS-1/MS-2 and to your preamp and system.
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Had feedback from the mfg and did a test of the prototype unit I have for trials. The system will accept 12VDC and 19VDC from the two switching supplies that I have. Looks like 12VDC AGM battery power and some other battery chemistries should be possible.
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I have recommended an extra 1TB USB hard drive as backup to all the folks that own a MS-1. This way they always have two copied incase something happens to one. To much work to loose!
I recently picked up a 1TB portable drive from Oyen Digital in Minnesota. http://oyendigital.com/hard-drives/store/EN3-54-1000-M.html. They are reasonably priced and they have 2TB and SS models also.
James
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What does the simplest setup look like?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71571)
This is the MS-1 (second shelf down, next to SBox Touch) installed in my system. Sorry about pic quality.
Bottom shelf is M2Tech Evo Hiface interface (necessary only because my DAC has no USB input)
and 1TB external drive. The external drive contains all of your music, so the server doesn't have to.
As this server is a mini PC of sorts, I used a wireless mouse and keyboard and connected the MS-1 to my 40 inch
LCD for the monitor (unfortunately I can't find that picture).
In this simple config, the external drive feeds music files to the server via eSata (fast), out of the server with USB to
the USB interface, and from the interface to my DAC thru Digital coax cable.
I used the installed music player as I would any other player as I mentioned with wireless keyboard and mouse.
Mostly to keep it simple and it is what I had on hand.
Did I forget anything HAL? :)
James
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This is the MS-1 (second shelf down, next to SBox Touch) installed in my system. Sorry about pic quality.
Bottom shelf is M2Tech Evo Hiface interface (necessary only because my DAC has no USB input)
and 1TB external drive. The external drive contains all of your music, so the server doesn't have to.
As this server is a mini PC of sorts, I used a wireless mouse and keyboard and connected the MS-1 to my 40 inch
LCD for the monitor (unfortunately I can't find that picture).
In this simple config, the external drive feeds music files to the server via eSata (fast), out of the server with USB to
the USB interface, and from the interface to my DAC thru Digital coax cable.
I used the installed music player as I would any other player as I mentioned with wireless keyboard and mouse.
Mostly to keep it simple and it is what I had on hand.
Did I forget anything HAL? :)
James
This is helpful, and it brings up another question. Is there a way to simplify your simple setup? Specifically, instead of using a monitor, keyboard, and mouse, can you use a phone or tablet to wirelessly connect to the MS-1 to access and select music files? I could be wrong, but I'm thinking there's gotta be an app that can communicate with the MS-1 since a phone or tablet can theoretically function as a monitor, mouse, and keyboard. .....Just thought about it -- my question assumes that the MS-1 has wireless connectivity, but it may not.
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The server has wireless to enable it to do anything any other PC will do. And you do want any windows based machine to update promptly.
I agree there has gotta be an app to connect to the server. Maybe something as simple as remote PC access.
I just haven't tried it. Hopefully someone will chime in with other possibles.
James
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I recently picked up a 1TB portable drive from Oyen Digital in Minnesota. http://oyendigital.com/hard-drives/store/EN3-54-1000-M.html. They are reasonably priced and they have 2TB and SS models also.
James
James - let me know how you like it. I've been looking at the powered 2TB drives as I may need 3 or more when I'm done.
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Good talking with you Rich ...
Count me in :thumb:
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James,
Nice setup!
You have everything correct.
Windows machines in general need a minumum of a display and mouse connected to run them. There are steps to setup the MS-2 that need entering of characters. Once this is done, a wireless setup can be used.
If you want remote access, another Windows device that runs IE9 or IE10 is optimal. I am looking at the new HTC-8X Windows Phone 8 since it has IE10. This would give random access to the entire library remotely. I have tried Google Chrome, but the scrolling features are not compatible. I do not have an Apple iPad or other Apple device to try Safari to see if the remote web page will work.
Sunil,
Good to talk to you today as well.
Early B,
The MS-2 prototype has both gigabit Ethernet and WiFi built in. This allows just about any type of access.
Cool thing about memory players is that the external drive has little effect on music playback. Foobar2000 just loads it into main memory and always plays from it. Once it is loaded the external HD goes idle.
The internal DVD drive is also idle until it is needed for CD ripping.
How does that sound?
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JLM, Phil's response if pretty close.
It needs a keyboard and mouse for setup. You can use a WiFi device for remote control. The one with the most flexibility so far as far as random file access has been PC's running IE9 or IE10.
If you loose power the system will need to be rebooted. I have not run the latest ideas in units for weeks on end since one is not selected. The MS-1 was running Windows 7 and very stable. I never had to reboot it when playing music, or between.
Does that answer your questions?
By WiFi device I suppose you mean like a smartphone.
If house losses power can something as simple as hitting the power button fully restore it (or does it need a screen/keyboard/mouse hookup, reboot, and try to reconnect to local network, etc.)?
Can it accept internet audio streaming?
How does it compare to a Dune (which is already produced, cheaper, and able to handle Blu-Ray)?
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JLM,
Yes, smartphone, PC Netbook, tablet with WiFi. Each has different capabilities as the remote. The system also has gigabit Ethernet for remote in if needed from other devices on the network.
The MS-2 will boot with just a display and mouse. If power goes off, it can be configured to reboot automatically. I set it to stay off, so that the user can tell that AC power is stable before rebooting. Single button on the front panel.
The MS-2 will stream media via IE10 or other player. It is a full fledge PC setup. I have not tried it with Logitech Squeezebox Media Server at this time. I have played video's from YouTube and a few other sites. The audio quality was very good, but limited by the formats provided. This worked well with the external USB DAC.
I eliminted the HD video capability to minimize power requirements. Only had two requests for that with the MS-1. Helps minimize noise levels in the chassis.
I prefer to have the DAC external to the noisy PC environment, hence the USB connectivity. There is a pretty simple way to solve the USB power noise going to the external audio devices.
The Dune HD Max looks interesting. It has the DAC's internal just like standard Blu-Ray players. Supports HiRez. Not familiar with the Sigma Designs media processors.
My preference is still for a PC environment for flexibility with new formats that might emerge.
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Would be interesting to know how it compares to say a mac-mini or another PC
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woodsyi had the MS-1 and has built a CAPS2. Maybe he can comment on the sound quality.
At RMAF this year the MS-1 was in the ACA room with a MAC Mini. Some folks in there heard both side-by-side. Maybe they can comment.
My personal reference transports, the Audio Alchemy DDS Pro and Integra DSP-8.3 were bettered by the MS-1. The MS-2 prototype is as good as the MS-1.
Best I can offer.
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Have asked for a beta tester update to see if there are any issues with the first units. If not, will let everyone know that orders for MS-2's can begin.
It has been tested with JRiver MC18 without issues by one of the beta testers. That is a customer decision, just as with the MS-1. I do not install JRiver here since it requires the user to enter their activation code.
Hope to make an update soon.
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The last issue with EAC is now corrected with Windows 8 and working in the two setups.
The parts for the first production MS-2 are on order. This one is going to the UK. A bit tricky, but we managed to get the correct export version of Windows 8. This takes purchasing by the customer to get the correct Windows 8 OS version and ship it to HAL for installation and then system configuration.
The price for the MS-2 is $799.00 + s/h/i. This can be used with USB2 external drives for music data storage via the high power USB ports. The system now has a large memory buffer for playback to preload the files from the drive. Drive access stops after the loading of the files.
Not every USB DAC's drivers are supported by Windows 8. I will investigate on an individual basis. As an example the new Oppo BDP-105 player's USB DAC is not supported by Windows 8.
PM me if you are interested in a MS-2.
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Waiting for my MS-2 :)
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Waiting for my MS-2 :)
Sunil,
PM me your shipping information.
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Sunil's MS-2 is shipping tomorrow. This is the first one to a customer.
The second one will be to the UK. I was asked to hold that one until after the Holiday's.
Will be interested in his comments on the MS-2 system with his DAC.
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saisunil now has the first production MS-2.
Hope he will post listening impressions once he gets his DAC.
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saisunil now has the first production MS-2.
Hope he will post listening impressions once he gets his DAC.
HAL I got the package ...
Sorry Can't post the impressions as my DAC has shipping damage - so I will be dealing with UPS and then I have some travelling to do.
Will be happy to post impressions - once I get to it - sorry
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Well hope Sunil's new DAC finally made it in one piece so he could try the MS-2!
The second MS-2 is ready and being packed to ship to the UK. The customer asked me to preinstall JRiver MC18 and they will register it. Will be looking forward to his comments.
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Any way for the MS-2 to recognize an HFS+ (a/ka Mac) formatted drive?
Shawn
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Any way for the MS-2 to recognize an HFS+ (a/ka Mac) formatted drive?
Shawn
Maybe HAL can build a Hackintosh version!
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There are programs that will let Windows recognise an HFS+ formatted drive. If it is music storage it might work.
http://www.macbreaker.com/2012/02/access-mac-os-x-partition-from-windows.html (http://www.macbreaker.com/2012/02/access-mac-os-x-partition-from-windows.html)
I will not be testing the programs with Windows 8 as I do not have Apple products.
Jason, that would be a big no to building a Hackintosh! :D
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MS-2 #2 on the way to the UK! :)
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Unit #1is is up and running in it's new home. Looking forward to comments
Unit #2 is in the UK. Waiting on feedback.
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Production MS-2 #3 is on it's way to trials in lots of places. Looking forward to feedback!
Unit #4 is inbound to build.
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Unit #4 is inbound to build.
And the Meitner MA-1 is looking forward to meeting it. 8)
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Did some experiments with my Nook Color as an Android Tablet. Was able to use it dual boot and load Android OS. Have the Google Play store installed and the newest version of Foobar2000 Controller. Allows random access to the entire music collection with Foobar2000 via WiFi.
You can also install the Nook App for Android and still read books as well.
This also works well from my Droid X2 phone running the Foobar2000 Controller.
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Wanted to thank Rich for class service.
The server sounds quite good - could not find flaw in sound quality - but it did not serve my needs and Rich refunded the money back while supporting me all along with issues that might have been unique to me.
Highly recommend!
Thanks
Sunil
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The first MS-2 running Windows 7 OS is at Scott's place and making music with his Oppo BDP-105. Did this one as a custom version as the Oppo does not have a Windows 8 OS driver. He is running the Oppo ASIO driver.
Next unit out this week is Phil A's for his Meitner DAC. All boxed and ready to ship.
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Phil A received his MS-2 today. Looking forward to his comments with his setup when he has time.
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Phil A received his MS-2 today. Looking forward to his comments with his setup when he has time.
Rich, got the keyboard and plugged everything in, which includes the keyboard, network cable, usb to DAC, 2 Oyen Digital 3TB Hard Drives and a StarTech.com High Resolution VGA to Composite (RCA) or S-Video Converter. The latter item is due to the fact I have a 19 inch TV near the listening chair already hooked to a composite switcher for disc player set-up, DVD-A menus, front door camera and now the MS-2. I played with the resolution a bit and while it probably is not as good as a PC monitor, it is workable (and in about a year I will have a new place and I had composite video and other things pre-wired under the slab). It will likely be Saturday until I get around to doing anything with it.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76133)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76134)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=76135)
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The original prototype of the HAL MS-2 will be at Axpona in Chicago in the Seaton Sound room for music playback. Sent my HiRez library so they have lots of things to play.
Hope folks will be able to stop by and say Hi to the guy's and give the setup a listen.
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I finally got around to listening to a few things and have been playing with JRiver and fumbling my way through it. The MS-2 sounds fantastic on DSD
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Looks like a few AC folks got to Axpona in Chicago and gave the MS-2 prototype in the Seaton Sound room a listen.
Hope folks enjoyed the show. Wish I could have gone.
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Looks like Scott has his MS-2 up and running with his Nook Tablet as the remote control.
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Lets see a picture of the 2. Is that it in Phils pic?
No wood top on this unit?
Phil, I see you went with the Oyen Dig HDD's. :thumb: I really like mine.
Damn Son, two 3 TB drives. That wasn't cheap huh? :green:
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James,
Yes the MS-2 is in Phil's picture. Look at post #3 in the thread. The latest picture of the MS-2 is in that post.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71552)
Duh :duh:
Damn it looks really nice. I know what it must sound like too :thumb:
That wooden top on the MS-1 just matched my stand perfectly.
Thanks Hal
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Lets see a picture of the 2. Is that it in Phils pic?
No wood top on this unit?
Phil, I see you went with the Oyen Dig HDD's. :thumb: I really like mine.
Damn Son, two 3 TB drives. That wasn't cheap huh? :green:
James, after the Meitner MA-1 DAC, it was cheap :lol: I'm busy getting cover art (lots of .dff files) with the drive attached to my PC. Then it will go back into the MS-2 and I'll tag stuff with JRiver. I'm only going to get to the drive with the non-classical stuff probably and that's going to take a bit. The system sounds tons better than when you heard it last. I'm really amazed.
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The first MS-2 running Windows 7 OS is at Scott's place and making music with his Oppo BDP-105. Did this one as a custom version as the Oppo does not have a Windows 8 OS driver. He is running the Oppo ASIO driver.
Next unit out this week is Phil A's for his Meitner DAC. All boxed and ready to ship.
Yes, the MS-2 is up and running in my system. I'm using Windows 7 and using the Oppo 105 as the DAC. I had some growing pains figuring out how to integrate this new source in my home network and with using my color Nook as a remote. Fortunately, Rich was as patient as a man can be and talked me through my confusion.
The unit is quiet and I heard an immediate improvement compared to optical disc playback. Both the MS-2 and the Oppo are new, so I expect continuing improvements as everything burns in. I've got a new WyWires silver usb cable on order to replace the stock generic cable. I'm expecting big things!
I give an enthusiastic recommendation to the HAL MS-2. If you are comfortable navigating the "wonderful" world of Windows and networks, you should be fine. If not, Rich will give you superb guidance.
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Amen to both above Posts and Posters and I am officially Fishing (couldn't find the appropriate Smiley), for preview invites from the aforementioned,
shameless, though I know it is.
I would be happy to bring serious refreshments.
Maybe not so much at Phil's under construction home. :lol:
So that leaves you Viva Hifi. I will PM you. Smile.
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Scott,
Glad you are up and running!
It always takes some time to get the MS-2 integrated the way someone wants. The challenge of getting the system customized for the setup is fun to me.
It was cool getting your Nook Tablet to dual boot Android for use as the remote. I like my Nook Color now with the new remote software as it is doing full access to the library.
Happy listening!
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Amen to both above Posts and Posters and I am officially Fishing (couldn't find the appropriate Smiley), for preview invites from the aforementioned,
shameless, though I know it is.
I would be happy to bring serious refreshments.
Maybe not so much at Phil's under construction home. :lol:
So that leaves you Viva Hifi. I will PM you. Smile.
By tomorrow I'm told the carpeting and landscaping will be just about done. In another week or so the pool. And the lot does back up to a small lake so 'fishing' is possible :green: I'd love to see what Scott has done. I don't have wireless internet (yet and was going to wait until the move early next year) but I did look at wireless routers at Costco last week and I feel I may have one of those coming on along with an iPad or iPad mini after I at least get cover art and the non-classical stuff tagged. Would be nice to see how it operates.
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Swap Meet Audio has an MS-2 for evaluation. Looking forward to their feedback.
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Looks like there is a MS-2 review in progress. Not sure when, so will keep everyone posted once I hear about the release.
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I picked up a 64G iPad Mini a couple of weeks back along with an Apple Airport Express (since I don't have wireless internet) and put JRemote on the iPad Mini. Interface is really nice and works great (but after the storms yesterday not sure if my Router survived or just went on its own - it is old, so I'm working on getting that up and running again at some point as it is much easier than the wireless keyboard).
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Phil,
Glad the iPad Mini is working out for the JRiver remote.
Last I heard Scott was liking the Nook Color as his remote as well to the MS-2. Use my Nook Color as well for my setup.
Looks like all the bases are covered for remote control at this point to the MS-2. :thumb:
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Hollis Audio Labs MS-2 Music Server will be in one of the Daedalus Audio/Mod Wright rooms at CAF2013. Please stop by for a listen if you are attending. The MS-2 installed will be the unit from Viva HiFi in Vienna, VA.
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I picked up a 64G iPad Mini a couple of weeks back along with an Apple Airport Express (since I don't have wireless internet) and put JRemote on the iPad Mini. Interface is really nice and works great (but after the storms yesterday not sure if my Router survived or just went on its own - it is old, so I'm working on getting that up and running again at some point as it is much easier than the wireless keyboard).
Phil....so you are running JRiver MC on the MS-2? Did you get a larger SSD installed or is the 60GB sufficient for JRiver DB?
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Phil's MS-2 has a 60GB SSD installed for the OS and software. The music files are on the external USB drives.
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Yes - I have two Oyen Digital 3TB drives attached to the two high speed USB ports on the back. It's filled with hi-rez and CD quality stuff. The SSD drive is quiet (as are my external hard drives).
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Cool, good to hear a 60GB SSD will suffice for the OS and JRiver MC (software and DB's)
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*Scotty* has the demo MS-2 unit.
Hopefully when he has time, will write-up his impressions.
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I thought I would take the time to report on my recent experience with The HAL MS-2 PC Music Server. To begin I really appreciated the MS-2's design, it's 8"x8"x2.25" size allowed me to put it right on the same shelf with my USB DAC. All I had to to do was connect my USB external HDD, wireless mouse/keyboard dongle and HDMI cable for display and I was good to go.
I approached this demo as somewhat of a scientific experiment. Both my computer, a Toshiba Satellite 875 laptop and the HAL MS-2, run Windows 8 and have 8G of RAM. They are also running the latest version of Foobar with all configuration settings duplicated on both machines. The single variable between the two systems is the amount of noise the Toshiba laptop injects into the USB connection between the DAC and the computer.
The differences between the two computers playing back the same music file were quite substantial and entirely on the side of HAL MS-2 PC Music Server. Playback of files from the MS-2 resulted in better resolution across the entire frequency spectrum. The highs had better extension and detail,the mid-range had a more complete sense of harmonic density. The images in the sound stage had greater solidity and 3 dimensionality. The bass was deeper, better defined and showed more texture with a broader tonal palate.
The Toshiba laptop's increased levels of noise resulted in masking of low level detail, a decrease in the size of the reproduced acoustical space contained in the the recording as well a loss of dynamic contrast that the recording could exhibit. In addition the to the aforementioned loss of information contained in the recording, the increased noise also had the effect adding an excess of upper mid-range energy which substantially increased the listening fatigue I experienced when listening to the laptop feeding the USB SABRE DAC.
The greater the resolution the DAC has, the more obvious the differences are. I used a Cambridge 740C via its SPDIF coaxial input fed from a TENOR 7022 chip's SPDIF output. Even though the Cambridge 740C has a substantially modified analogue output stage, this player almost qualifies as a vintage piece in the ever evolving world of replay via computer based files. I started playback from computer with the DAC section of the 740C almost 5years ago and this piece is now functionally obsolete. All serious evaluation was done with an EES Tech based USB DAC. The SABRE DAC sports an 225watt external power supply and is not powered by the USB buss. Even though it is not dependent on USB power apparently the noisy laptop environment also impacts the data lines as well as the power buss. The DAC's independence from the USB buss does not solve the problems that the laptop brings to the table.
A conventional multitasking computer used for everyday applications sets a hard upper limit on the performance one can expect from computer based music playback. A "better" DAC and a more expensive USB cable will not significantly improve your performance until you deal with problems stemming from the computer itself. In my opinion the HAL MS-2 is a spectacularly effective solution to the limitations on system performance that are imposed by a regular computer.
I purposely saved the best for last. When high resolution files are played back via the MS-2, the differences between CD resolution 16/44.1 files and 24/96, 24/192 and DSD via the DSDIFF decoder in Foobar are striking. There will no-longer be any questions regarding the sonic superiority of the Hi-Rez formats when they are compared to CD resolution 16/44.1 files. When the masking and information loss is dramatically reduced by using the MS-2, the concept of building a library of Hi-Rez recordings starts to make sense.
I would highly recommend the addition of the HAL MS-2 to anyone who seriously wishes to improve their system's reproduction of music from computer file based formats.
Needless to say a MS-2 is at the top of my short list for acquisition next year. Until then I am going to have to suffer with replay from my laptop.
A big thank-you to Rich for the demo and the ease of setup of the MS-2!
Scotty
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I didn't know there is a demo available. Where's the schedule?
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PM HAL for further information on the demo schedule.
Scotty
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Jason,
If folks ask, I have a MS-2 that can be sent for audition. There is no schedule, but the MS-2 can be tried if interested. This for US trials only. The next person that asked for a demo is mix4fix.
Rich
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If folks ask, I have a MS-2 that can be sent for audition. There is no schedule, but the MS-2 can be tried if interested. This for US trials only. The next person that asked for a demo is mix4fix.
Rich
I see. So how long is the wait? How many people are on the list as of now?
Also, do you only like Foobar? JRiver? What are your thoughts? I do use a NAS now.
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There is only one person waiting on the demo MS-2 at this point. I have been offering a 30 day trial as it has been to local MAAC members so far, since they are in driving distance and we have monthly gatherings.
I use Foobar2000, as I like the interface. Others have chosen JRiver MC. LarryB liked JRiver MC18 better for sound quality than Foobar2000 in his trials with the MS-1. I install the latest JRiver MC only if folks are interested, but it is up to the user to license it after the 30 day trial.
If you would like to demo the MS-2, there are two options. I can sent it after mix4fix's demo, or I might be bringing one to RMAF and you could borrow that one after the show.
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Here is a list of specs that I have investigated so far:
Intel Atom N2800 dual core processor with Intel graphics and chipset
Use of mSATA 60GB SSD drive
8GB of DDR3 memory
Internal DVD drive for ripping CD's to an external user drive
Internal 802.11N WiFi
Gigabit Ethernet connection
HDMI and SVGA video connections
Foobar2000 preloaded
Exact Audio Copy preloaded
Fanless system
All aluminum chassis with black brushed anodized finish
Windows 8 OS
I like the sounds of this whole idea of a mini computer using SSD drive. I grabbed one of those eSata 1 TB externals someone mentioned here for $129 to achieve some speed of delivery. I prefer the Logitech Media Server interface and the fact that I have so many playlists set up already but if Foobar sounds better then I will switch. I definitely want to use an iPad2 for remote controllability and have plenty of spare monitors for setup duties. Have a Lampizator 4/4 USB dac and an Asus router connected to my Uverse internet box. Any hiccups with controling the unit via Ipad? Not sure what app would do this.
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BRM,
The MS-2 will run LMS if that is what you use. I installed it for my Touch on my MS-1. I can install it and check it with the MS-2 if you are interested.
The Foobar2000 player sounds very good to me as a direct player via USB from the MS-2. Some users are using JRiver MC and I install the demo version if someone wants to try it. The beauty of this is that you can try them all to see what works the best for you.
There are two high power USB2 ports on the back to use larger hard drives.
Foobar2000 does have a plug-in to allow Apple products to be used as remote controls. I believe that it works with iTunes add-ons. I have no way to test this, but the components are available. The other option is using Safari on the iPad2 to directly browse to the Foobar2000 web remote interface.
The user needs an HDMI or SVGA monitor, USB keyboard and USB mouse or wireless keyboard/mouse combo is needed to start and setup the machine.
From the DAC website, it looks like a USB driver maybe needed for the unit. That would need to be installed to use the DAC.
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I use JRemote with the Ipad Mini for my MS-2 and it works really nice.
I have not tried LMS as I'm trying to keep the MS-2 for the main system. I have LMS on my PC and if and when my Teac DAC ever gets here for the secondary basement system, I'll see how the Foobar plug in works and then decide down the road if I want to try it on the MS-2.
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So the rear layout is similar to the MS1 unit except for the VGA/HDMI versus DVI output?
So for us non-computer nerds, the ability to try different operating softwares like LMS or Foobar and compare the sound is a great option. I just don't know WHY a software program can make the basic FLAC file sound better or worse. A discussion for another circle.
Are you backed up with RMAF preparations?
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BRM,
The back panel is similar, the original DVI connector is now a SVGA. Lower power graphics processor than the MS-1, so not for HD video use.
I have one demo MS-2 unit coming back from *Scotty*. Probably will take that one to RMAF. Have one new MS-2 in a box configured if someone is interested. You are the first to ask about a possible new unit, so I could ship you that one. If you are going to RMAF, I can probably send you home with the demo unit.
Rich
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Just for reference, the motherboard that is being used in the MS-2 is now in limited supply. I have one last unit ordered after the one that BRM is look at coming. After that will be looking at new systems as the possible MS-2 replacement, unless the supply changes.
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I'll speak with you at RMAF.
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Sounds good. See you at RMAF.
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I have been using the MS-1 that I got from Rich about 2 years ago. I have been using foobar since I got it, and have been pleased with the sound. A few weeks ago I got curious and decided to download the JRiver trial. After I downloaded and set the playback settings according to recommendations, I spent some time playing with it and listening. From the first notes, I knew something was not right. The sound did not come close to the sound quality of foobar. I tried several files, and they were all the same. I attempted to improve things by trying different settings for playback, but nothing helped. I thought the interface was nice once I got the hang of using it, but I just did not like the sound of it compared to foobar. A lot of people like JRiver, but my system did not seem to like it. Who knows?
Mark
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Mark,
Thanks for the feedback on JRiver on your MS-1. Glad you are still enjoying it!
Big Red Machine has his MS-2. Looking forward to his comments once he has time to listen in his setup.
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Sure Rich, no problem. I was really surprised by the sound of Jriver. It really sounded pretty bad, and I set the output to the settings that are suppose to be the best. Needless to say, I did not buy it after the trial. I see you are going to RMAF. Wish I could go. Is Chris going too? If so,tell him I said hello. I have not talked to him in a while. I saw the speakers Danny is taking and would really like to hear those. You will have to let me know what you think.
You guys have fun, but not too much!
Mark
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Mark,
Meeting Chris at RMAF and going to listen to Danny's new open baffle line sources. Will pass on the hello to Chris.
Will post impressions on them. I love the LS-9's, so this should be interesting as a comparison.
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Way overdue on commenting on Rich's MS2 Unit. Rich is a trooper. He's knowledgeable and was patient with helping me work through some start up issues I was having. None of which were an issue with his unit but just my ineptitude with server software programs.
Just because you are buying a computer made by a guy in Maryland, doesn't mean it comes in a paperbag to your door. This thing was professionally packaged up with accessories and remnants of the loaded devices so you had reference materials and confidence that what you ordered was actually installed. It was also double boxed and shipped with tracking.
The unit is a step up in appearance from the first version. This thing is very sexy in its sleek black case and tidy form factor. USB 2.0 and USB 3.0, HDMI, etc. are all there. I have not ripped a CD yet but am about to through the front load BluRay slot using preloaded EAC. Slick.
The Windows 8 machine is set up with a HAL page all ready for your server software. Mine came loaded with Foobar and the plugin. I ended up at JRiver (more sophisticated user interface and controls to handle my dac chipset).
I'm not using the wireless as I have it wired into the Asus router in the next room. I purchased a Oyen 1 TB eSata to handle the music and feed the 60 gb SSD drive in the MS2. This thing runs quiet and cool and is easily controlled by software for on and off if need be and has more potential than I may ever use.
I don't really believe in fate because I like to control my own destiny (Don't be a victim is my motto). I had been looking very hard at NAS devices, SS drives, software, etc. thinking I was going to save a buck and build my own server for my audio setup. Yeah right. This was so much easier and in the end I did not have to become more educated about computers than I needed to be.
I highly recommend you consider an MS2 which for me has been a very nice addition to my setup. And you can count on Rich to help you get up and running. Now I'm going to polish off a few items in the next week and finally enjoy browsing my music files.
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I highly recommend the MS-2 as well. I have both Foobar and JRiver on my main PC too but having a dedicated music server eliminates many issues. To me it is a true bargain. I had a Squeezebox Touch and an upgraded power supply and when you look at that and the cost differential to something like the MS-2 with its capabilities, it is a no brainer.
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I had been looking very hard at NAS devices, SS drives, software, etc. thinking I was going to save a buck and build my own server for my audio setup.
Glad you like your MS-2!
Just to be clear though on a NAS. You can still use NAS with the MS-2. You would replace the external drive that you're using now and use the NAS if/when you had a bunch of files. I have ~7TB of music files and then I still use the NAS for photo's and cloud storage. I got tired of daisy chaining external drives together. Now, I have a silent music server and the NAS is in a different part of the house and it's all hard wired together. My only regret is not doing the NAS sooner.
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Yes. I like the Oyen drive I bought that I might get a bigger one and through the sharing capabilities on the network use the Squeezebox in the future in the living room to play tunes (once I get some gear hooked up there).
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BRM,
Glad the MS-2 is working well with the DAC!
Phil A,
Sorry I missed the MAAC gathering last weekend. Was looking forward to hearing the new DSD DAC.
The MS-2 demo unit will be going to RMAF just incase someone is interested in taking a look at the chassis.
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Just for reference, the motherboard that is being used in the MS-2 is now in limited supply. I have one last unit ordered after the one that BRM is look at coming. After that will be looking at new systems as the possible MS-2 replacement, unless the supply changes.
HAL,
Any luck finding a replacement system?
Chris
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Chris,
I am still looking. Have a candidate on order, but will take time to verify everything once it arrives. Probably a few months.
In the mean time, I have one new MS-2 chassis that just arrived. That is available along with the MS-2 demo unit for anyone interested.
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HAL,
Thanks for the response.
I can't do one now, so will have to wait till the new set up is ready.
Chris
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Mark,
Meeting Chris at RMAF and going to listen to Danny's new open baffle line sources. Will pass on the hello to Chris.
Will post impressions on them. I love the LS-9's, so this should be interesting as a comparison.
Sheesh, Mark. I can't believe we haven't been in touch for this long. My day gig is... Are you familiar with the term, "water-boarding"? It would actually a relief from I.T. management of the size company I'm trying to electro-shock into reality! ha.
I have TWO MS-1's now. One for my main system, and one for my Master Bedroom system.
I'll be there. Wish you could be. You really can't just "borrow" a BizJet for the weekend? How 'bout a Falcon 10 we can have some fun in? I need to call your employer! :lol:
The owner of my company keeps trying to get me interested in a helo he's contemplating buying. I told him, "Twin Engine Turbine, or forget it!" I need to get back into a Sikorsky S-76. 150' and 180 MPH. Yeah Baby!
Here's a shot of my main system and room now:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=88216)
Now if I could just spend more time there...
Safe Skies, my Friend,
See ya Thursday, Rich. I'll be comatose; so better have the Grey Goose waiting :D
Chris
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Chris,
The setup looks great! :D
Will be there starting tomorrow. I will be going to the Lift for therapy!
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Wow Chris, you have done some work on your room! It looks great. Hope you are liking your 9's as much as I am. Good to hear from you, and yes it has been too long. I just finished training on a new plane, an EMB-505 ( Phenom 300 ). This may be my last type before I retire, but you never know. I do wish I could get to RMAF and spend son time with you and Rich. Would love to hear Danny's new creation, the 9's on steroids. You and Rich will have to let me know how they sound, as if I do not already know.
Here is a story for Rich. I just heard from my son, also a pilot, who flies for a cargo company out of Miami. He said he just file Black Sabbath's stage set down to Brazil. It was a lot of stuff as you can imagine. But no, Ozzie and the band did not go with them. I think they took the " crazy train ". :D
Mark
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Mark,
Very cool indeed! The stage set for the Black Sabbath tour is immense! Was 11 rows back at the Holmdel show. Awesome concert!
Will keep you posted on the new speakers!
Rich
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Rich
Thanks again for letting me play with the MS-2. Not only once but twice! :oops: For all of you that haven't seen it and am considering such a music server, take a look at Rich's. The case is awesome. It's just about the size of a Mini and it has a Cd drive. Basically it's as big as it needs to be but looks proper.
Now I just need to decide what the heck I want to do. :scratch: Maybe I need to listen to it in my house. :o Then I'd probably buy it. :duh:
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Jason,
Glad you had time to give the MS-2 a look and listen.
Just wish the show were a day longer so I could see more and do demo's after the normal show times. It was fun hooking it up in Danny's room with the LS-X setup! :thumb:
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Was able to pickup an Astell&Kerns AK120 music player at RMAF in the CanJam area after the show. Not only is it a very nice portable HiRez player, it is also a HiRez USB DAC. Will make a very nice portable Music Server demo setup for the future!
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Hal, Without reading everything can you tell me what the cost of the MS 2 is and what the availability is?? Thanks
Richard
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The MS-2 is $799.00 plus shipping.
I have the parts to build a new unit at this time. Will be next week to ship after build and software load and checkout.
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Just picked up a Microsoft Surface RT to use as a remote for the MS-2 Music Server. I like the Windows phone as a remote, but the Surface has a bigger display.
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At Rich W's get together last month, one of the guys had a Dell Venue 8 Pro ($300). You can actually run full JRiver on it (although for storage it would be a bit awkward with the mini-USB and a hard drive. The MS-2 is really flexible that way in that it is not one of those proprietary things from a typical high end company that one needs to settle for a less than adequate consumer interface vs. being able to use JRiver or Foobar. I have a friend who has one of those $2k+ audiophile things (by a major high end brand - unfortunately in my opinion analog is their thing and they should concentrate on that) and in my opinion it does not sound any better and does not allow such flexible easy to use interfaces and is a constant thing of proprietary updates and at the end of the day one is stucj with the lousy interface. The MS-2 is a true bargain.
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Rich (HAL),
It's been a while since anyone had posted here, and I was wondering if you are still making the MS-2?
Dan
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Hi Dan,
I have two MS-2 demo machines that are available for purchase. The MS-2 motherboard is no longer being made, so those are the last of the model. They are both built and ready to use. These would be $749.00 each + shipping, since they are demo units.
No plans for an MS-3 replacement at this point.
Rich
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Hi Rich,
Thanks for the fast reply. I'll consider your offer and let you know. In the meantime, I'll need to re-read this thread, in case I missed something and to be sure this unit will work for me.
I'll be in touch.
Dan
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Looks like the last two demo MS-2's are now spoken for. Will be getting them ready for their new owners soon.
Hope everyone has a great weekend!
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Oh Well...He who hesitates.
Any interest in a MS-3??? I know I would be interested. Anyone else? My bet is that if enough interest is out there, Rich would consider another upgraded version.
Dan
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*Scotty* has his MS-2. Hope he is enjoying the music!
Finishing up the last MS-2 for it's new owner that will pick it up on Friday.
Better Living Through Audio Nirvana.
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Thought I would give a brief report on my MS-2 experience. I have been using a Win8 Toshiba P875 laptop, 2.4G i7, 8G RAM. So far Win8 is the best sounding Windows OS when compared earlier Win OS. The Toshiba sounds just OK to me and when I auditioned the MS-2 last year I heard an audible improvement in sound quality over the Toshiba. The biggest improvement was heard when Hi-Rez files were played. The DAC was an ESS Sabre chip based DAC.
Fast forward to the present day with a different custom DAC having superior resolution and imaging performance. Now the differences between the Toshiba laptop and the MS-2 are dramatic. While I made note of a much quieter background, better low level resolution and superior imaging with a more vivid tonal palette in my earlier comments, these same differences are much pronounced.
The changes for the better were large enough that I did a double take when playing back what I thought were pieces of music I was familiar with. The system is also more revealing of USB cable choices.
I am very happy with sonic improvements the MS-2 brought to the system. Music sounds much less Hi-Fi more like real music.
It appears that the better your DAC is the more important the computer supplying data becomes.
Thanks again HAL for your attention to detail and building a very good sounding machine for computer audio playback.
Scotty
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Scotty,
You are most welcome!
Glad you are enjoying the MS-2.
"Better Living Through Audio Nirvana"
Best,
Rich
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The last MS-2 goes to it's new owner on Friday. He also has an MS-1 for his setup. He will be picking it up that morning.
Hope everyone is still enjoying the music from the units. It has been a fun time building them and doing support.
Now off to the next audio project.
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Last MS-2 is on the way to it's new home. :)
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Wish it was on it's way to my home. But once again Rich I just couldn't swing it. Only due to the extras that I would have required by my current setup (and there is that I need an amp and sub worse- and to pay the dental bill).
But following that I will be calling on you for advice or maybe if we're lucky, :thumb: :thumb: an MS-3.
Looking to hear praise from the fortunate owner(s) soon. Having been fortunate enough myself to preview the MS-1, I can appreciate the quality and detail of the build to say nothing of the massive improvement in sound quality over my stock SB Touch. And my Bolder modded PS has a faint hum. Faint only up close and is still night and day over the wall wart.
Anyway, thanks HAL for your effort and dedication.
James
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I'm glad to see the success of this project. It's been a couple of years now since I wrote the first review of the prototype MS-1, and it seems like all the superlatives that were applicable then are still true. You've done a great job with these. Thanks, Rich. :thumb:
Scott
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Scott,
Thanks! Glad you are still enjoying the MS-1 for music.
They were fun to build! You get to meet new people that enjoy good music, so added benefits along the way. :)
Guess I will go back to refurbishing old Laney tube guitar amps and PA's and have fun.
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For MS-2 owners, I have done the Windows 10 update on mine with very good results. No issues with anything that I could find.
You can get the link on www.msn.com to the Windows 10 OS update if you are interested.
I also recommend looking at Math Audio Room EQ for use with Foobar2000 and a Dayton Audio UMM-6 calibrated USB mic. It will use your DAC as the signal source and make measurements at the listening position to correct for room and speaker anomalies. So far had very good results with it.
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For MS-2 owners, you need to keep the WiFi antenna connected to the unit even if it is not using WiFi.
The WiFi PCIe card maybe damaged by not having the antenna connected as the 50 ohm load. Just had to remove one of the PCie cards as the user did not have the antenna connected and the card died.
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Just forced the Windows 10 Anniversary update to load on my MS-2 and it worked easily. It does need 20GB of disc space to load and run the update.
Will be running the programs to see how they are working as time permits.
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I believe 30+G of the roughly 60G hard drive are already being used by Win 10, I am not entirely sure that the update is possible with my machine.
Scotty
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Scotty,
I just did it on the 60GB drive in my MS-2 and it worked. I just backed up the music I had and had 33GB free. The updater checked and said it was ok to update.
When it was done, I had 23GB of free space again.
Just checked all the programs on my MS-2 and they are working correctly. I am checking all the Windows 10 settings to see if they are the same as I set next.
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A MS-2 that was just upgraded to Windows 10 should be back to it's owner today. Waiting to hear if it is alive and kicking.
This one took a power hit in the middle of the Windows 10 update at the owners place, and damaged the original OS and the WiFi adapter. Removed the WiFi adapter, reloaded it from scratch to rebuild the system and back to normal.
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The MS-2 is back with it's owner and working with Windows 10.
The MS-1 and MS-2 motherboards are no longer available for repairs. The MS-2 can be upgraded by installing the MS-3 motherboard, back panel, new install CD and wiring harness. Doing that now for one customer that had the MS-2 motherboard fail. Moving over the MS-2 memory and 60GB mSATA drive went well and now waiting on the new DVD wiring harness to complete the system. This unit was still running Windows 8, so it will remain with that OS installed.
For MS-2 and MS-3 owners, please keep all the Windows OS, Install disk media and WiFi antenna for the system. The WiFi antenna should be installed even if not in use. The WiFi modules do not seem to like no RF load. It can be installed and left in the horizontal position if that is easier than vertical.
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Just did an MS-2 to MS-3 motherboard upgrade for a customer. The MS-2 motherboard stopped working and no repair or replacements are now available for that board.
The chassis is the same, so the MS-3 motherboard, new DVD cable harness and new back panel were installed and Windows 8.1 update to Windows 8 were done. Everything is working well, so shipped it back to the owner today.