AudioCircle
Industry Circles => ZenWave Audio => Topic started by: DaveC113 on 8 Jul 2013, 09:41 pm
-
Hi,
I am ready to do an interconnect tour if folks are interested.
Would 1 meter long cables work for everyone?
I have 3 ICs I am offering now:
D1: Furutech FP-126 RCAs, Neotech EC-UPOCC copper signal wire, mil spec silver plated copper/teflon ground wires
D2: Furutech FP-101 RCAs, Neotech EC-UPOCC copper signal wire, Neotech UPOCC copper/teflon ground wires
DD: Furutech FP-101 RCAs, Duelund 1.0 silver signal wire, Neotech UPOCC copper/teflon ground wires
Please post here if you are interested in joining the tour. :thumb:
EDIT 4/6/14:
NEW TOUR STARTING ON PAGE 10: D3 Interconnect Cables (XLR and RCA) and 14 Gauge Speaker Cables
-
Sign me up
-
I'm interested.
Any possibility of a XLR version?
-
Very cool, Dave! :thumb:
Please count me in.
Have fun,
Jerry
-
I'm interested.
Any possibility of a XLR version?
I have a design for an XLR version, it will be similar to the single ended but with 2 strands of signal wire in a 4-strand litz braid.
I would be happy to make a D1 version for you and whoever else has balanced gear to test out, but I need to confirm the sound quality will equal the single ended version before I offer it to the public. Also, higher end XLR plugs that I'd use for the higher end XLR cables are really expensive, so I need to know the D1 XLR works out before investing many hundreds of dollars into building and testing higher end cables. So if I include a D1 XLR cable you will be helping me out as a beta tester... :thumb:
-
Yes, please :thumb:
-
Also, higher end XLR plugs that I'd use for the higher end XLR cables are really expensive,
Why not use the incredibly cost efficient and well designed Neutrik connectors?
-
Why not use the incredibly cost efficient and well designed Neutrik connectors?
That kind of connector would be perfect for the D1 cables, they are meant to offer maximum value for the money. It wouldn't be a big deal to buy several reasonably priced XLR connectors from Neutrik, Vampire and Furutech and see what works best. The higher end cables I make are meant to offer maximum performance without as much emphasis on keeping cost down. That means I would need to purchase and test out the options to make sure I am using the best connectors I can. That is what would get expensive, plus the fact I'd need a balanced system to test them on. The middle of the line Furutech XLRs are about $325/set, Xhadow (high end vampire) are $260, Neotech are way up there too. A high end XLR cable is going to cost more than a single ended IC and it would cost me well over $1k just to research the options.
In any case, connectors are a big deal... there's often major differences in sound quality between RCA plugs. The Furutech FP-101 RCA plugs I use on my single ended ICs are over 4x the price vs the FP-126s on the D1 ICs, but there's a significant difference in performance that is very easily audible. It is what makes a majority of the difference between the D1 and D2, the ground wire does make a difference, but it is much more subtle than the connectors, and the UPOCC ground wire is about 15x the price vs the mil spec wire on the D1s.
So I'd prefer to make sure the D1 level XLR has the same performance as the single ended D1 before getting into using more expensive parts. If it turns out Neutrik is as good as it gets for XLRs than I will be a very happy guy, but it's not likely. :green: You also have to understand that this isn't exactly replacing my day job, not even close. I make an reasonable hourly rate doing this, but no "profit". The cables I'm selling would be about $500 for the D1 and $1500 or so for the D2 using typical industry markups for this product. My goal is to offer a much better value for the money than anyone else selling cables... and my cables won't be embarrassed when compared to any cable out there regardless of price, even the D1. These are top of the line cables at much lower prices than anyone else is offering.
-
In any case, connectors are a big deal... there's often major differences in sound quality between RCA plugs.
So what objective specs do you look at that these opinions are based on?
-
So what objective specs do you look at that these opinions are based on?
This is getting off topic, I'd like to keep this thread about the tour. Can you move your post and this response to this thread?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116380.0
And I would be happy to talk about how I select my connectors. :wink:
-
Count me in also.
-
I'm very interested in joining the tour. Also have a fully balanced system and am looking for some new XLR cables. FWIW, I'm not convinced fancy XLR connectors make a huge difference in my system (have several Neutrik based cables and one with Vampires) - the cable seems more important by far.
-
I'm very interested in joining the tour. Also have a fully balanced system and am looking for some new XLR cables. FWIW, I'm not convinced fancy XLR connectors make a huge difference in my system (have several Neutrik based cables and one with Vampires) - the cable seems more important by far.
I agree, the cable is most important... but if you can use a single ended IC in your system you will be surprised at the difference between the D1 and D2, which is mostly in the RCA plugs. I used the Vampire XLRs to make a XLR > RCA cable for someone and they are very nice connectors for about $8 each, not much more than Neutrik. I was checking out Neutrik XLRs and they do have a blinged out version with Swarovski crystals imbedded :lol:
http://www.neutrik.com/en/xlr/xlr-cable-connectors/crystalcon/
-
Love to be on the tour. Thanks!
-
I'd like to hear your designs. Since we're talking about connector quality, have you tried the Xhadows?
-
Dave,
I would like to join, mainly to check out the the D3 and DD
-
Please add me in, thanks!
-
I'd like to be included in the tour. If nothing else I'm good for a few laughs.
Don
-
I would like to join the cable tour as well. Los Angeles area, zip code 91780.
Mike
-
Interested in your top-of-the-line IC, curious how it compares with my 4K/6k/9K$$$ superduparumpa wires.
:smoke:
-
Interested in your top-of-the-line IC, curious how it compares with my 4K/6k/9K$$$ superduparumpa wires.
:smoke:
Honestly, the D2 with EC-UPOCC copper signal wire is better than the Duelund silver wire if neutrality is your goal... and it's going to be competitive with anything out there for only $300. The DD/D3 cables are different but not necessarily better. The EC-UPOCC wire is the key to making top of the line cables at reasonable prices and it is the most neutral wire I have ever tested, and I've tried a lot of wire...
I would be very interested in hearing your impressions!
There's lots of interest, so I may need to run 2 simultaneous tours to avoid keeping people waiting for months...
-
Hi Dave,
I'm also interested; located in Los Angeles. We share listening priorities (timbral accuracy on horns and strings.) Might you be including a longer pair of unbalanced (e.g. 2 meters) D2's for use between pre- and power amp, in addition to 0.5 or 1 meter pair between source and pre?
Thanks and happy listening,
Harvey
-
Count me in, at 19363 between the NY and Mid-Atlantic groups. Ideally would like 2 pr of half meter ICs, with RCA connectors, to go Purity One Pre to Dahlquist LP-1 sub xover, then LP-1 to amp.
But I'd love to hear whatever becomes available.
Gene
-
Dave,
This is a very generous offer. 1m single ended RCA terminations will work in my system. Please plug me into the list for the Mid-Atlantic region, zip code 19707.
NB
-
Count me in
-
Great, Thanks for your interest everyone! So far I have the following for the tour:
Charles Xavier
launche (xlr)
JerryM
ganjamon
ZLS
pfarthing (xlr)
Chris Adams
BobRex
mdfoy
jbtrio
dflee
hanguy
mjosef
hrosenba
etcarroll
nature boy
fridays
Mike B.
Please send me your address and phone number if you haven't already, and specify if you would like to receive an XLR cable. I plan on splitting this into 2 tours so people won't be waiting so long, only one will have an XLR cable. I am most likely just going to send out 1 meter cables, only one person has asked for longer, and that's difficult to accommodate because I rarely sell IC cables longer than one meter. But if several people need longer cables I will consider it.
Also, the D3 is not ready for prime time yet so it won't be going out... it costs a lot to make and takes A LOT of labor to construct... and it isn't that much better than the D2, there isn't enough difference to justify the much higher price.
-
Please count me in. I sent you a e-mail. Thanks
-
OK, I think I have a plan... :green:
We have 17 participants, so it looks like I will do 2 overlapping tours so this doesn't take 6 months. I will start the first one now without the XLR cable for the east coast folks:
Chris Adams (VT)
Charles Xavier (NY)
jbtrio (NY)
mjosef (NY)
etcarroll (PA)
BobRex (PA)
nature boy (DE)
dflee (NC)
OzarkTom (MO)
jonbee
hrosenba (CA)
hanguy (CA)
bradmorris1
paul79
The second tour will start in one to two weeks and will have an XLR cable in the box, it will move from east to west:
launche (NC)
rklein (OH)
ZLS (IL)
fridays (IA)
genjamon (KS)
pfarthing (WA)
Mike B (OR)
Jerry M (CA)
Vulcan00
shaizada
drmike
mikeeastman
I am excited to get the ball rolling!
Chris Adams, you have a pm. :)
-
Thanks for allowing us to play with your products in our homes. What will be the time between users?
Don
-
No problem Don, I look forward to hearing everyone's impressions of the cables.
I suppose I should spell out the requirements...
1. Please keep the cables in good shape, don't kink or bend them sharply and remove them by pulling only on the connectors and not on the cable. The locking RCAs used on the D2 and DD ICs don't need much torque to tighten them, if you tighten them too much and they take more than a tiny bit of force to unscrew the locking collet, please hold the rear section of the connector with one hand while unscrewing the locking collet with the other hand, this will prevent torque from being put on your female RCA jack, thus preventing the jack from rotating.
2. Since there are a lot of people on the tours, it would be nice if you can send the cables on to the next person in 7-10 days.
3. Shipping will be UPS ground, please insure the package for $890. Shipping charges will be paid by the person shipping the cables.
4. Please share your impressions of the cables here, comparisons with other IC cables you might have are welcome.
I am sending out the first package to Chris Adams today. :)
launche, I will let you know when the 2nd tour package will be sent out, it should be in a week or so.
-
Looking forward to that nice package from UPS. :drool:
Dave, are the cables broken in and if not, how long?
-
I too appreciate the opportunity to try your cables.
Thanks for making this happen. :D
Regards,
Randy
-
Looking forward to that nice package from UPS. :drool:
Dave, are the cables broken in and if not, how long?
The cables have about 100 hours on them, the D1 a little more. They will still change a bit, but not by too much. It would be ideal to get 200+ hours on them.
I'd advise anyone to give them a few hours to break in after going through shipping and installing them.
Randy, no problem, I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone thinks. :)
-
The D1 XLR cable is done, I'm thinking of sending it out now as it'll be another week + before the single ended ICs are ready to ship, I'm still waiting on some parts. Thanks Launche and pfarthing for trying it out! :thumb:
I am aiming to get the single ended ICs delivered to Launche on Aug 5th.
I posted pics and info on the XLR cable in the Path of Least Resistance thread here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116380.msg1244520#msg1244520
-
What's the status on tour one?
Cause Dave's not here man.
-
I'm here! :green:
Chris Adams has the 1st set of cables and is going to send them to Charles Xavier on Monday (tomorrow), he will post his impressions when he gets the chance as he is still checking them out.
The 2nd set of cables will go out to Launche tomorrow... it is a little late going out, but the cables have had a decent amount of time to burn in and Launche is out of town until tomorrow anyway. The DD interconnect with Duelund silver wire needs quite a long time to burn in.
-
OK, cable set #2 is going out to Launche today and will get to him by Friday... and Chris Adams will send cable set #1 to Charles Xavier today as well. :thumb:
-
I didn't get a chance to listen as long as I wanted to. What I heard I liked. If you go to Dave's website and read the descriptions of each cable, they are on the money, at least in my system. The D1 could cost twice it's price at least, an absolute knockout for the money. I could be very happy with it. But, wait, the D2 for twice the price is even better. Neutral, extended, smooth, detailed, spacious, you get the idea. Not a harsh bone in it's body.
I liked the D2 so much, I bought two pair from Dave as well as a pair of 11 gauge speaker wires. The physical quality of these cables is better than anything I've seen costing much more money and while sound quality is subjective and system/room dependent, knowing the silly amounts I've spent in the past, I think I'm done (at least for a while :wink:).
Forgot to mention the DD cables. Not for my system. Similar to D2 but the D2 was smoother on upper mids and highs. It's possible it needs more burn time. I ran music and burn in disc for six days 24/7, so I think the copper cables are good to go.
-
Thanks for posting Chris!
Maximum value for the money is what I'm going for, the D1 is intended to be a moderately priced cable that puts high end performance within reach of anyone. The D2 and DD are meant to compete with anything out there regardless of price.
I do think the DD needs a very extended burn-in (~500 hours) and have been advised that's the case for all Duelund products. Some harshness in the highs will be the last thing to settle down. I have the DD in my line up because it has a significantly different character vs the D2. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other, it depends on the system and personal preference. The DD cable is fairly ruthless and incredibly fast, but does not lean toward cold or thin, in fact the opposite... if you haven't heard really good silver cables this is going to be interesting to listen to. In the right system it will be great, but in some systems it might be a bit much. My system uses 2 ICs, DAC > preamp > amp... I like having one each of the D2 and DD in there. :)
-
Woohoo. I made the list :D -- looking forward to this. I'll be comparing your RCA cables to my balanced ones; should be interesting!
-
Woohoo. I made the list :D -- looking forward to this. I'll be comparing your RCA cables to my balanced ones; should be interesting!
The XLR cable is looking like a separate tour since there are only 4 folks interested in checking it out. Launche is going to give it to poseidonsvoice since they are local to one another, then poseidonsvoice will send it to you, then on to mikeeastman.
So you won't get the XLR at the same time as the single ended ICs, but you will have a chance to check out both. :)
-
I missed the Fed Ex guy. Guess I'll get them thursday.
-
The XLR cable is looking like a separate tour since there are only 4 folks interested in checking it out. Launche is going to give it to poseidonsvoice since they are local to one another, then poseidonsvoice will send it to you, then on to mikeeastman.
How did I end up in the sh*thouse? :lol: I thought Anand was going to send the XLR's to me. However, it may actually work out better if I am "last" on the XLR list as I just sent my E20 DAC back to Exasound for an upgrade. I won"t have it back for a week or two. When will Anand be finished?
Regards,
Randy
-
How did I end up in the sh*thouse? :lol: I thought Anand was going to send the XLR's to me. However, it may actually work out better if I am "last" on the XLR list as I just sent my E20 DAC back to Exasound for an upgrade. I won"t have it back for a week or two. When will Anand be finished?
Regards,
Randy
It won't take me more than a weekend to evaluate, and Launche is planning on sending it to me mid/late next week...
Best,
Anand
-
It won't take me more than a weekend to evaluate, and Launche is planning on sending it to me mid/late next week...
Best,
Anand
:o You are auditioning cables!?!?!?!?! :o
-
:o You are auditioning cables!?!?!?!?! :o
I know, I know!!! Both Launche and I thought the same but hey, I don't mind giving Dave my $.02 on how it sounds versus my stock cables I have...call us the R&D team for Dave!
Best,
Anand.
-
How did I end up in the sh*thouse? :lol: I thought Anand was going to send the XLR's to me. However, it may actually work out better if I am "last" on the XLR list as I just sent my E20 DAC back to Exasound for an upgrade. I won"t have it back for a week or two. When will Anand be finished?
Regards,
Randy
Oops... :oops: Sorry, I didn't have you down for the XLR but I suppose it will work out better anyway if your DAC is in for upgrades. I will move you down the list for the single ended cables too, let me know when you get your DAC back or I will check with you in a week or so to see where you're at.
And yes, I do appreciate you guys auditioning the cables for me. :thumb:
-
OK, Launche now has a set of cables and Charles Xavier handed them off to jbtrio. :thumb:
-
I'd like to thank Dave for allowing me to audition his D1 XLR cables. Here are my thoughts on the D1 XLR in my 2 channel/home theater system: Speakers - Danley SH50, Amp - DAC Cherry - Preamp -W4S STP SE Source - Oppo BDP-95.
Disclaimer: I don't do a lot of "subtle"...I'm a hit me upside the head differences kind of guy. If I "thought" I heard something then to me I really didn't hear it or maybe it doesn't matter that much to me at the moment.
I feel Dave's D1 XLR cables did no harm in my system. Honestly, I found it hard to detect any major differences from my resident XLR cables (Zu Mission which I find to be pretty good). Given the minute it took to change cables each time when doing quick A/B comparisons, I'd be hard pressed to say there were glaring differences without it just being confirmation bias. During long listening sessions I was fine with either cable, not feeling I was missing anything of value to me with either cable out.
For what I did think I perceived... I gathered a balanced and smooth sound from Dave's cables with maybe a slight bit of midrange and upper bass warmth/fullness vs my stock cables (which I feel are also good in those areas) which may have leaned more so to slightly highlight the treble frequencies. But again it was slight and I could also be wrong but that was my impression. Dave's cables also seemed a slight bit more laid back sounding, potentially due to the previous comment. Could I tell them apart in a true ABX test, not a chance. Best I can say is I felt the cables didn't seem to get in the way of my enjoyment which is the most important thing to me these days. Any differences I could perceive were slight, my impression of a bit more overall top to bottom balance and ease of presentation when I inserted Dave's cables was the take away. My resident cables might sound a bit more lively and energetic but even that is just a touch so.
I do have interest in purchasing some of Dave's cables as my system configuration will be changing but I want to see how that unfolds first.
Thanks Dave
-
Too bad you could not have listened to the D2 or the DD's
-
Too bad you could not have listened to the D2 or the DD's
It's ok, there's no D2 or DD XLR cable yet... I want to make sure the basic and much less expensive D1 formulation worked out before spending lots more (over 10x more) on UPOCC/teflon ground wires and Duelund signal wire.
I'm happy my basic D1 formulation worked out and seemed to equal the Zu Mission, which is a more expensive cable.
Launche, thanks for taking the time to check out the cable and let us know your thoughts, I appreciate it.
-
I am now in receipt of Dave's XLR cables. Listening should commence soon and then off it goes to rklein by early next week!
Best,
Anand.
-
Once again, I would like to thank Dave for allowing me to audition his XLR version of his D1 interconnects. My system description is right below my avatar, and honestly, it would take a little more than 1/2 this post to just describe it, so I refer you there!
I inserted Dave's D1 cable between my dac (Poseidon's Voice Sabre 32S (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65332.msg886712#msg886712)) and my preamp (Poseidon's Voice Lazarus (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118082.0)). I felt this position was best due to the way my system is configured - controlled directivity loudspeakers augmented by multiple subwoofers. My 'stock' cable is VH Audio's Symmetry Copper XLR cable (http://www.vhaudio.com/interconnects.html) which I built myself. As a factory direct retail product, the cost is about $725/meter pair. I diy'ed the product for considerably less, about $400/pair as I received a discount from VH Audio and also a larger discount on the Furutech FP-600 series gold connectors from Parts Connexion. The VH Audio Symmetry Copper XLR cable uses a pair of 24AWG copper solid core conductors with solid FEP insulation and a double shield of foil and silver plated copper spaced away from the conductors. Measurements on the cable are available from Chris Ven Haus by request, as are now Dave's cables.
I auditioned the cables at the same volume level on my Lazarus preamplifier, initially with quick A/B comparisons and later on with longer listening sessions. The following selections were used:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZZ3ifXWLL._SX300__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)
Track 12 - Carrickfergus; Celtic Woman: A New Journey (http://www.amazon.com/A-New-Journey-Celtic-Woman/dp/B000KRNCYY)
(http://www.elusivedisc.com/images/sfcd6027.jpg)
Track 5 - No Sanctuary Here; Chris Jones: Roadhouses & Automobiles (http://www.elusivedisc.com/CHRIS-JONES-ROADHOUSES-AUTOMOBILES-CD/productinfo/SFCD6027/)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61l-d4Y8wYL._SX300__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)
Track 5 - Bigfoot; Bela Fleck & the Flecktones:Live Art (http://www.amazon.com/Live-Art-Bela-Fleck/dp/B000002N7R)
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/28/06/9dfe810ae7a08c3362dca110.L._SY300_.jpg)
Track 7 - Devil May Care; Diana Krall:Live in Paris (http://www.amazon.com/Live-Paris-Diana-Krall/dp/B00006J9OT/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1377750196&sr=1-2&keywords=diana+krall+live+in+paris)
Every single one of the above recordings I strongly recommend purchasing, they are absolutely fantastic. Chris Jones' Roadhouses & Automobiles album should be a reference for all references. It is the most analog recording on a digital medium that I have heard to date.
To be honest, my review is going to closely mirror what Launche said. The fact that Dave's D1 cables sounded quite close to the Symmetry is a complement to Dave's design and execution. The differences were in fact, subtle. I listen at very high volumes - about 85-90 dB at the listening position, which is roughly 11-12 feet away. To that end Dave's D1 cables accentuated the upper midrange a bit more and lost some of the smoothness that was apparent on the Symmetry cables. Staging was very similar as was imaging. Dynamic attack was similar, although the bass with Dave's D1 cables was a smidgen less defined. The Symmetry was a bit more cohesive whereas Dave's cables accentuated an extreme here and there. I immensely enjoyed Dave's D1 cables regardless and they didn't deter me from appreciating the music in the least.
If you were to ask me to tease the differences when blinded - it would be impossible. The differences are subtle and small, at least in my system, and with my ears (which I recently had tested by my audiologist).
What is shocking though is the apparent difference in price, especially if you went with the factory direct retail price of the VH Audio Symmetry Copper XLR's. One of the reasons for the large differences is that Dave's D1 cables use a considerably cheaper XLR male/female connector from Furutech versus the VH Audio's use of the nearly top of the line Furutech gold XLR connectors.
I purchased Dave's DD cables (RCA) to go from my turntable to my phonostage. I am now thrilled with that purchase after having auditioned Dave's D1 version of his XLR cables.
Best,
Anand.
-
Hi Anand,
Thanks for trying out the XLR, I appreciate it. :thumb:
Good review and I'm surprised this cable only had subtle and small differences from the VH Audio cable given the huge difference in price.
------------------------
jbtrio sent the cables to Nature Boy, and Launche currently has a set of single ended cables as well, which he will be sending to rklein when he is ready. We should get to hear jbtrio's thoughts soon, I think he liked them since he picked up a set of DD cables for his system. :wink: Thanks!
Thanks to everyone's participation in the tour, I appreciate the interest and feedback!
-
Bought the Chris Jones, Bela Fleck, and Diana Krall CD's to rip for my system, having listened to them online.. Thanks for the recommendations, and nice review.
-
So now that you're big time will you be at RMAF in a room?
-
Lol, not exactly big time yet... :green:
No room at RMAF this year.
I am very happy with the reception and reviews my cables are getting though, it has exceeded my expectations. I think I am succeeding at my goal of being able to offer cables at a value unheard of in the industry. My D1 is very close to the performance of the best cables out there for relatively little money and the D2, DD and speaker cables can be compared with anything out there regardless of price, and they are all under $500.
-
Nature Boy is sending the cables on to mjosef today.
Folks, please post your impressions after you have had a chance to hear them, that's part of the tour. Everyone will appreciate hearing your comments on them. :)
-
I auditioned Dave's RCA cables (D1, D2, DD) and liked them very much. My amp only accepts XLR inputs so I had to use adapters so I may have missed some level of performance with the extra element in the signal path. Not a lot to report as my audition time came during one of those really busy periods with work and life and I just did not have the time or will to do any in depth analysis and I updated Dave on this. My audition system is: Oppo BDP95->Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Preamp->DAC Cherry Amp->Danley SH50/TH50 speakers and sub.
I listened mostly for relaxation and enjoyment which I needed. The D1 was nice, D2 nicer and DD...well that was the one that just seem to fit the best in my system, though each cable very sounded good. I primary used the DD between my pre-amp and amp. From the moment I Insert the DD everything felt about right and I didn't want to take it out to switch anything or compare anything. I haven't heard many silver cables but this one was different from the very few I've heard in my systems over the years. In my system it presented an increased level of listening enjoyment.
Well all I could or wanted to analyze was a slight reserved nature from the mids through the top end in my system, which is welcomed. The midrange sounded as natural as it ever has and the top end energy was smoother or less extended or more refined...hard to say which exactly. That made the system just a touch more relaxed and easy to listen too without a thought of anything missing, no distractions that concerned me just a musically centered quality, seeming a touch or two away from neutral in the warm direction but in the right ways for my tastes. The DD was plenty detailed and transparent and seemed to piece the notes together more cohesively than my stock Zu Mission cable. The DD seems to shift the tonal balance a bit lower and give more foundation for everything to rest upon. There was a good sense of appropriate weight and top to bottom balance with the DD, for me a very reassuring sound quality.
As many non-equalized systems are, mine is a little hot on certain trebles frequencies, not harsh but a little pronounced and the DD was a great compliment in that respect.
One night I must have listened to Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions five times in a row, just sank right in the chair. When I needed a pick me up Daft Punk's RAM was great, pushed the system to 95-98 dBs, no problem and little to no treble fatigue beyond the obvious hey that's damn loud-ness cues. That was a little shocking and I'm not sure what is the cause, if the adapters were in play or what have you but I felt I could push the system harder with lesser ill effects that are typical for those loudness levels. Jazz, classical, blues all sounded just wonderful I cared not to analyze but just listen.
Truth be told I still don't want to believe the DD cable made the difference, that it might provide that extra layer of smoothness and cohesion. Making the system have the feeling of a little coating of agave nectar that delights the palette and pulls all the flavors together . But I have to say I sensed it when I inserted it and sensed the loss when it was out. Nothing earth shattering but noticeable and welcomed when there. Normally I can adjust to something in or out of the system and enjoy accordingly. I don't obsesses over every perceivable difference, some things are just different sounding for whatever reason not necessarily better or worse and one can adjust in most cases either way. I wanted to wait a few days before writing to see how I would acclimate to the DD cable being out of the system and it somewhat pains me to say I find myself missing the DD cable. Honestly, if my system configuration were not soon changing I would buy the DD without reservation and frankly I may still buy it.
Thanks again Dave
-
Nature Boy is sending the cables on to mjosef today.
Folks, please post your impressions after you have had a chance to hear them, that's part of the tour. Everyone will appreciate hearing your comments on them. :)
Slight delay. Shipped cables today, mjosef should have these by Thursday. Enjoy.
NB
-
Honestly, if my system configuration were not soon changing
Great write up as usual. What's the comment above about though? :scratch:
-
Hi Dave -
I'll be home the last 2 weeks of Sept, any chance I can get the D2 routed my way? Or the D1?
Gene
-
Hi Dave -
I'll be home the last 2 weeks of Sept, any chance I can get the D2 routed my way? Or the D1?
Gene
Sure, we skipped over you before so I will add you in next. :)
-
launche, Great review, I appreciate it. :thumb:
That's great the DD cable worked well with your system and tastes. I agree it is much different than most silver cables, in my experience silver needs to be extremely pure to avoid producing annoying artifacts. The Duelund wire is 5N or 99.999% pure which is very rare, and the mineral oil impregnated silk insulation is certainly unique and is also a very high quality dialectric. So the DD cable is not your typical silver cable and doesn't fit the stereotypical sound of lower quality silver cable.
I'm also going to add the cable with Neotech silver/gold alloy to the catalog, details in the other thread here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116380.new#new
-
mjosef should have the cables now.
NB
-
Cables received...warming up the system right now, will report initial impressions later tonight.
Martin
Spinning: Parliament, Flashlight 12" single.
-
Took me a while to get the system back to where I like it best. Summers I usually switch to SS, and my sound takes a bit of a hit. With the rapid cooling over the past week I returned to my tube pre and amp over the weekend.
I swapped in Daves' cables last night, after two evenings playing my fav. music have to say these cables are pretty darn good. I think I like the DD best but they are close very close tonally.
Will live with them for a couple days before doing a direct comparison. My CD/SACD player has two outputs so I can easily compare any two cables with the flick of a switch on my preamp.
More later.
System: Yamaha 1800 SACD/CD/DVDA player > CAT SL1 pre> Marchand X/O @250Hz > RA 3205S tube amp >VMPS RM1 mid/hi panels. THe twin 8" bass drivers are driven by a Crown xti 1002 crossed at 340Hz/48dB. off the CAT 2nd output.
-
Ok, sounds good... :thumb:
-
Hey Dave, just curious about tour one status. I am looking forward to trying your cables out in my system.
-
I got a pair this past Thursday and burning them in now.
-
Hey Dave, just curious about tour one status. I am looking forward to trying your cables out in my system.
We are on, but folks are not posting reviews which is a big part of doing the tour. I don't mind of it takes some time to get your comments up but PLEASE don't skip posting up your impressions of the cables. Even had one person like the cables enough to buy them but no review. I invested a decent amount of time and money to get the cables out there, all I ask is to share your impressions and let me and all AC members know what you think of them. Thanks in advance for posting your thoughts of my cables. :)
@etcarroll, a little burn in is good since they were shipped but they shouldn't need very much time at this point.
ZLS has the other set of cables and will be sending them on to fridays.
-
We are on, but folks are not posting reviews which is a big part of doing the tour. I don't mind of it takes some time to get your comments up but PLEASE don't skip posting up your impressions of the cables. Even had one person like the cables enough to buy them but no review. I invested a decent amount of time and money to get the cables out there, all I ask is to share your impressions and let me and all AC members know what you think of them. Thanks in advance for posting your thoughts of my cables. :)
@etcarroll, a little burn in is good since they were shipped but they shouldn't need very much time at this point.
ZLS has the other set of cables and will be sending them on to fridays.
Indeed. Good, Bad or Neutral, it helps Dave, somewhat like an extended R&D.
Thanks Dave for the tour once again.
Best,
Anand.
-
Yup, with an audio product measurements are only part of the story... getting feedback is very important for both myself and potential customers. My customers want to have the best understanding possible of what they are getting before they put money down. Even with a 30 day return policy folks don't want to buy unless they are confident they are making a good choice. With feedback comments people can get an idea of the sonic characteristics of the cables and how they work with various systems. And I need feedback to make my product the best it can possibly be.
-
I guess I should have said 'getting them acclimated to my system'.
@etcarroll, a little burn in is good since they were shipped but they shouldn't need very much time at this point.
ZLS has the other set of cables and will be sending them on to fridays.
-
I got the Dave's XLR cables from Anand about three weeks ago and am just now posting my impressions. My apologies for not posting earlier. Two business trips and care giving for my Father-In-Law doesn't leave much time for hobbies now a days...
My listening was conducted with Dave's XLR IC's and then unexpectedly, I also received a package full of Dave's RCA IC's. Most of my listening was done with the XLR version.
The setup for these listening sessions were as follows:
Source: C.A.P.S. v.2+ with JRiver feeding an Exasound E20 MKIII DAC
Amp: Modwright KW-200 Integrated
Speakers: DIY'd Selah Audio TRT Model
Speaker Cables: MG Audio Planus 2's
I listened to a variety of classical recordings which included:
Beethoven String Quartets recorded by the Cleveland Quartet
Mahler 2nd Symphony - DSD version recorded by Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra
Madrigal Movement from Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet recorded by The Cleveland Orchestra/Maazel
Toccata & Fugue from the DSD recording by The Jacques Loussier Jazz Trio
Promenade from the Lucky To Be Me album recorded by Taylor Egsti
I found Dave's XLR cables to have a very nice quality overall. There was no lacking bass. The mids to my ear had a bit softer quality than the Furutechs that I have been using. The highs were also a bit (and I mean just a wee wee little bit) more subdued than the Furutechs as well.
One of the traits of Dave's XLR cable which really showed up during my listening of the Beethoven Quartets was the speed of the cable. What I mean by this is that I could hear the inner voices(2nd violin & viola) a bit more clearer on the Furutechs. In addition, the faster figures (16th note runs) were a bit clearer on the Furutechs as well.
This in not in any way saying that Dave's XLR cables lacking. I am nitpicking. Unfortunately, I am cursed with a classically trained ear and where Dave's XLR cable might shine on other genre's of recordings, I preferred the house Furutechs in these listening sessions. In addition, the MW KWI-200 leans on the side of warmness. Especially, in the mids. (in a very musical way) so I think Dave's XLR cables were just too much of a good thing. In a bit bighter system, the XLR's might just be the ticket!
What was totally unexpected was when I decided to go ahead and try Dave's DD RCA cables. I really had no intention of using them as I run balanced but I went ahead and ran them between the Exasound E20 MKIII DAC directly to the Modwright KW-200 Integrated using the HT Bypass, thereby bypassing the Preamp section of the KWI-200 and using the VC from the E20.
The resulting sound was VERY NICE!! Not as transparent as the previous setup but lemme tell you. I really didn't care. The overall presentation was extremely clean without being harsh. I then went ahead and tried the D1 and D2 cables but my favorite (by not a small margin) was the DD.
On every recording it just sounded good. Sometimes I would be wanting to hear more information but then told myself to just chill out and enjoy myself. Well with the DD cable that is exactly what I did. :thumb:
For what Dave is charging for some very well constructed cables, you really can't go wrong.
I appreciate being part of this tour and again my apologies to everyone, especially Dave for being tardy with my comments.
Regards,
Randy
-
Amp: Modwright KW-200 Integrated
I thought you had NC400's? :scratch:
Guess not.
-
I do have the NCore monos. Just trying something different to see if I can simplify my system. The jury is still out....
The Modwright does a GREAT job in the midrange. Not sure how Dan accomplishes this with a piece of SS gear. However, the NCores are more dynamic and also more transparent.
Regards,
Randy
-
I do have the NCore monos. Just trying something different to see if I can simplify my system. The jury is still out....
The Modwright does a GREAT job in the midrange. Not sure how Dan accomplishes this with a piece of SS gear. However, the NCores are more dynamic and also more transparent.
Regards,
Randy
Ah ok. Did you try the cables with the NCore setup?
-
Ah ok. Did you try the cables with the NCore setup?
Unfortunately, no. Between business and my wife's Dad, my plate is full. :o
Plus, I have been breaking in the Modwright 24/7 and when I listened I wanted it to be with what I had been listening to for the last month. For me at least, if I start changing too much equipment and inserting too many variables my ears start to play tricks on me. Sort of like Audio Overload! If I were able to keep the cables (which isn't feasible) for longer I might have tried them with the NCores.
Regards,
Randy
-
Thanks for the review Randy. :thumb:
Again, I'm happy the XLR cable did so well when put up against a much more expensive cable... I am a Furutech dealer and the cheapest set of XLR cables on the list retails for nearly $1000, and the others are well over $1k. The D1 XLR is the cheapest version I can make and will retail under $200, if I were to make a D2 or DD version of the XLR it would be much better, and also more expensive.
I am also happy you liked the DD RCA cable, it is made with the best parts I can find within reason... the Duelund 5N silver wire is really something special. And the cable is under $500... You also noticed the cable is extremely clean without being harsh, which is my goal and what I consider the best cable... one that allows you to hear as much detail as possible but without any harshness or annoying artifacts that would cause fatigue.
-
This is another review of Dave's IC's.
This review mirror's Randy's, especially concerning the DD cable.
In my system, the best term I can use to describe it is, "listenable"
I did not care whether or not is was the most accurate,
I did not care whether it introduced some sort of distortion,
Once it went into my system it did not come out.
The other cables were good,
The DD was great.
I was not surprised that it revealed detail; silver is known for this.
What really surprised me was the beautiful tone it allowed to come through.
It does not sound like any silver cable I have ever heard.
All of Dave's cables have a very open sound, the DD is no exception.
Dave, you have a winner and new champion.
-
Sorry for the delay in submitting my final impressions, got caught up in 'stuff'...
I actually forgot about critically looking for differences (for the most part)between Dave's cables and some of the cables I have on hand. I popped them in one at a time between the digital source and the pre. and thought they all sounded quite nice. I liked the DD best, but this is with the orientation against the direction indicated on the DD, everything sounded much more 3D, image height was higher, soundstage depth was deeper and wider...at 10 minutes in, on the Miles 'Calypso Frelimo' the percussive bells/triangle/hi-hats was surreal, popping out of the background conveying a tangible sense of the instruments floating around the room.
I zoned out just listening to a variety of musical genres over the course of 4-5 days.
Buy the DD if you can swing it, if not the D2 is a worthy runnerup, similar tonality but missing the subtle nuances that separates the exceptional from the very good.
Job well done Dave. :thumb:
Since I biamp it was difficult to try more than 1 cable pair at a time. My bass amp is balanced inputs only, crossed over(under) @ 340Hz.
Yamaha SACD > Cat SL1 pre > Marchand XO @250Hz^ > Response Audio 3205S > VMPS RM1 mid/hi drivers. And Pre 2nd output > Crown xti 1002 @350Hz > VMPS RM1 dual 8" woofers.
-
@ZLS, thank you for the review and I'm happy you liked the DD cable. Your review hit the nail on the head, that's exactly how I feel about the cable myself. It's a very unique cable, the Duelund wire is unlike any silver wire I've tried out, and I have experimented with quite a few. I sometimes think the D2 might be more accurate, and UPOCC silver is more accurate still, but the Duelund cable just sounds really good. It does everything right plus a little bit. :)
@mjosef, I will echo what I said to ZLS, thank you and again I'm really happy the DD worked out so well for you too. I was actually expecting the D2 to be folks' top choice closer to 50% of the time, so that's good feedback that the DD is coming out on top most of the time. In my system it's more of a toss up, I like one of each. :)
Also, interesting on running the DD in the opposite direction as the cables' construction is not directional. So, if you prefer them in the reverse direction you would need to change orientation every few hundred hours of playing time as the dialectric breaks into being run in the opposite direction. What you are hearing is the reaction of the dialectric... I will have to try it out sometime and see.
And I know the DD isn't exactly inexpensive, but it is made with $210 worth of Duelund wire, $45 in ground wire and $150 in RCAs. But on the upside, it is a bargain compared to more expensive cables :D ...and I would put the DD up against any cable out there regardless of price.
-
Ok, sorry it's been so long. I wanted the put 500 hours on my DD cables.Plus wanted to put some hours on my new amps, which needed break in.
I didn't try the D1's only the D2 and DD. The D2 are a very good cable, fast, detailed, linear, with good transparency. Tonal balance is nice and be a good fit in a system on the warmer side of neutral.
The DD were my favorite. They are quiet, smooth, with a beautiful tonal balance. Before break in the midrange was a little forward but are now nicely balanced. They have very good detail but in a musically natural way.
The built quality is excellent. Compared to my Gabriel Gold reflections they aren't as good. The GG have even more naturalness and ease but they cost much, much more!
Dave's cables are an excellent value and I liked them so much I bought a pair.
Again, sorry it took so long for the write up.
Joe
-
From:mjosef
Today at 03:37 am
"I actually forgot about critically looking for differences (for the most part)between Dave's cables and some of the cables I have on hand. I popped them in one at a time between the digital source and the pre. and thought they all sounded quite nice. I liked the DD best, but this is with the orientation against the direction indicated on the DD, everything sounded much more 3D, image height was higher, soundstage depth was deeper and wider...at 10 minutes in, on the Miles 'Calypso Frelimo' the percussive bells/triangle/hi-hats was surreal, popping out of the background conveying a tangible sense of the instruments floating around the room."
mjosef - I have a set of D2s with these RCAs: http://www.partsconnexion.com/product22663.html. Having read the above paragraph from your post, I reversed the orientation of my D2s between the amp and preamp from the direction indicated, and achieved many of the same results you mention.
I now wonder how long they will sound this way? In a week or two will I need to change the orientation again? If the construction is identical at both ends that may well be the case. Perhaps Dave has a view on this. Thanks for the idea.
-
From:mjosef
Today at 03:37 am
"I actually forgot about critically looking for differences (for the most part)between Dave's cables and some of the cables I have on hand. I popped them in one at a time between the digital source and the pre. and thought they all sounded quite nice. I liked the DD best, but this is with the orientation against the direction indicated on the DD, everything sounded much more 3D, image height was higher, soundstage depth was deeper and wider...at 10 minutes in, on the Miles 'Calypso Frelimo' the percussive bells/triangle/hi-hats was surreal, popping out of the background conveying a tangible sense of the instruments floating around the room."
mjosef - I have a set of D2s with these RCAs: http://www.partsconnexion.com/product22663.html. Having read the above paragraph from your post, I reversed the orientation of my D2s between the amp and preamp from the direction indicated, and achieved many of the same results you mention.
I now wonder how long they will sound this way? In a week or two will I need to change the orientation again? If the construction is identical at both ends that may well be the case. Perhaps Dave has a view on this. Thanks for the idea.
Hi maxima95,
I wrote a bit about it in my last post... I have not tried reversing the direction, but the cables are symmetrical.
"Also, interesting on running the DD in the opposite direction as the cables' construction is not directional. So, if you prefer them in the reverse direction you would need to change orientation every few hundred hours of playing time as the dialectric breaks into being run in the opposite direction. What you are hearing is the reaction of the dialectric... I will have to try it out sometime and see."
Beyond that, I have no explanation for what is going on.
-
Dave - Thanks for responding (again). I missed your post with the information in it.
It will be interesting to see how long it will take before I feel the need to reverse them.
-
The late, great Bob Crump (despite his deviant enjoyment of cilantro) was the first, to my knowledge, to discuss the inherent directionality of wire and cable.
Empirically, directionality doesn't hasn't changed with years or use, or weeks of burn-in on a Dharma device.
-
Directionality of wire has been known for at least 20 years. Wonder Wire came with one end bent so you would know which way to use it. All wires, whether single wire or stranded sound different listened to each direction. I have been playing with the Neotech litz braided wire since it first arrived. It is super. However, it sounds much better in one direction. My own interconnect (which I might produce to sell....of course, Dave can copy my idea) uses two 20 gauge wires for hot and two 20 gauge wires for return. The hot and return are in the opposite direction for best sound. All four braided wires are tied together (both hots together and both returns together) with cotton string every inch and a quarter?. This damps the cable and makes a serious improvement on the sound. This ugly centipede has been my reference wire for over a year.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=88034)
-
Thanks for your comments Occam and Ric, I am happy to have such experienced people add to my thread.
I have tried 2 strands of 20g for the return, the differences between that wire and the conventional wire are slight. Also, heavier gauge grounds produces less noise.
I will experiment with directionality for sure!
-
Hi Dave,
Just curious as to who has the cables or is the tour done?
Nick
-
I have a tour set that just arrived today. Didn't have a chance this evening for a real listening session, but the DD's were sounding pretty good when I swapped them in briefly after work.
-
Have a pair of DD and D2 will reverses and report back. The DD has the same break in character as the Duelund caps so far. Sounding a bit dark and all midrange. Took 750 hours or so to fully settle. Almost gave up. Never give up.
If the cables are not designed to be used in one direction only it is prudent to try both ways. I always thought wire was not directional until broken in one way. Then it is directional. Willing to learn something new.
charles
-
I wonder how directionality relates to burn-in.
If something is run in for several hundred hours and then reversed, does it need several hundred hours in the new direction before concluding which orientation is "better?"
-
Hi Nick,
Currently BobRex and genjamon have the cables. fridays should post his impressions soon. We're getting there... :green:
Thanks to everyone for their patience, I know it's going to take while to get the cables to everyone. I also appreciate the feedback!
-
All
While listening to Johnny Cash's The Man Comes Around and having goosebumps, I decided to purchase the DD cables
Not much of a review as far as reviews go but connecting with the music is what I'm after
Highly recommended, I'm sure there are better cables but at this Price I doubt that
Thanks
-
All
While listening to Johnny Cash's The Man Comes Around and having goosebumps, I decided to purchase the DD cables
Not much of a review as far as reviews go but connecting with the music is what I'm after
Highly recommended, I'm sure there are better cables but at this Price I doubt that
Thanks
:lol: Lol, I don't know about that. :wink:
Thanks for your comments and I'm very happy the DD cable worked for you.
-
What I meant to say is there may be better cables out there at 5 6 7 times the price, and at this price they are a steal love em
-
I just got done with an all-morning listening session, switching between the DD, D2, D1, and my current Sweet Spot Reveal cables (made by Sonny here on Audiocircle). The SSR bested Morrow Audio level 2 and AntiCable interconnects to give you all more common points of reference. I'd say the strengths of the SSR are plenty of body and tonal nuances/shading that make music really come alive in my system, with enough detail and microdynamics to clearly separate instruments and make them seem real and emotional.
The D1 was pretty good, had about the same tonal balance as the SSR, which is good, but smeared sounds a bit more and didn't quite get there in resolution or microdynamics.
I found the DD and D2 to have significantly more separation of instruments and, delineation of vocals, etc than the SSR. The SSR's had a bit less clearly spatially defined vocals, and music with a lot of instruments smeared together just a bit compared with these two.
However, I found the D2 to be a little too tonally white washed and tipped up compared with the SSR. It was a bit tipped up compared with the D1 as well. I found it articulate in terms of detail, but lost a significant amount of engagement with the music when using the D2. I just couldn't connect with the raw emotion of the performance. I also found it tipped up a bit tonally, and not at all something I need in my system.
The DD seemed not quite to equal the SSR in the area of tonal shading and emotional engagement. However, I think what I was hearing was that the slight smearing of the SSR was probably contributing to a bit more body and tonal shadings - probably an artificial effect. This made a few songs more engaging with the SSR, but on the whole probably isn't something to embrace. On the DD, I heard enough of the tonal shading that I was still really connecting emotionally, but increased delineation of instruments on complex pieces and increased delineation/localization of voices and instruments on smaller group performances. I also thought the tonal balance was just right on the DD. These characteristics are similar to what I experienced going all-silver with my internal speaker cabling to go along with my silver speaker cables.
I'm going back and forth about whether to order two sets of DD, or to send my SSR's back to Tuan (Sonny) to swap the cheapo connectors out for high end Furutechs, one of each, or both. There's only one set of DD on the tour, so it would be great to hear what a full run of them would do in my system.
Thanks for the ability to try these out in my home, Dave! The only way to really listen to cables is to be able to swap them in and out in real-time in your own system with music you know well.
My system:
Tekton Lore speakers (fully upgraded crossovers, all-silver internal wiring), Clear Day shotgun speaker cables (high gauge silver)
Mac Mini source (2010, Audirvana, tweaks to operating system, SSD, 8BG RAM),
dB Audio Tranquility DAC (with latest gold-level upgrade),
TRL Dude preamp,
NCore 400 monoblock amps (with top level Cardas XLR to RCA adapter for RCA input),
dual subs in distributed array and with EQ for fairly flat bass down to 20Hz at listening position.
Significant GIK room treatment (absorption on front wall and tritraps to the ceiling in the corners, diffusion at first reflection points)
-
Thanks for the review gengamon, I appreciate it!
Usually there is a price to pay for richness, body and tonal shading in the form of reduced resolution, which you mentioned in your review... the Duelund wire is unique in providing a lot of resolution and detail while also producing a nice tonal balance and harmonic richness. Personally, I do not like the extra body, warmth, bloom and richness typical of copper interconnects, it obscures too much information. UPOCC copper sounds much "cleaner" and the Neotech litz type wire I use reduces this effect even more. UPOCC silver is the "cleanest" wire I have used and probably the most neutral, but it doesn't sound as good as the Duelund silver wire.
-
Actually, I wouldn't totally agree with that interpretation of what I wrote, Dave. I think the SSR has a similar level of one sense of resolution - it's there, but just seems a bit smeared, and I do wonder if it isn't mainly due to the cheap connectors. I've heard big increases in clarity due to eliminated smearing when upgrading from cheapo XLR/RCA connectors in the past to top of the line Cardas, and I think what I was hearing could substantially be due to that.
I've heard the difference between OCC litz braided speaker cables and my Clear Day silver speaker cables, and in that case I would fully agree with your assessment. The OCC cables have a lower tonal balance, a bit more weight and density to the sound, but they are not nearly as articulate and I don't hear the microdynamic details with them that I do with the silver cables.
With the SSR, I DO hear those microdynamic details - they're not being glossed over - they're just not as clearly delineated and teased apart with the SSR as they are with the DD. I'd really like to hear the SSR with upgraded connectors up against the DD in my system. It might be that you're right and SSR don't quite have the detail that the DD do, but I'm not prepared to come to that conclusion with an apples-to-oranges connector situation going on in the comparison. I suspect it could be pretty close.
But then, the Lore isn't a speaker that is known among the most detailed. It's more about realistically live dynamics and a certain sense of tone. It has really good imaging for a 10 inch mid-bass driver in a relatively wide cabinet, but probably not in the same league of imaging/detail as more "audiophile" drivers in slimmer cabinets. It all depends on what you mean by detail and tone, I suppose.
-
Hi genjamon, I was writing in general terms and not specifically about the SSR cable as I have not heard them. Most cables that have a lot of body and richness do not have the needed accuracy and detail. The DD is unique in that it has loads of detail, is very fast and accurate, yet also provides a richness to the sound that makes the tonality realistic.
I would agree that connectors make a big difference but there is the issue of synergy with the rest of the cable and your own system. The Furutech FP-101(G) RCAs that I am using in the D2 and DD work very well without being outrageously expensive. But they are also most of the difference between the D1 and D2 so if you thought the D2 emphasized high frequencies more than the D1 than the FP-101 may not work out for you. Based on what you said I would also avoid anything with rhodium plating. I actually have some Neotech locking RCAs with pure copper center pins and gold plating that sounds like it might be a good choice for you, they are being closed out for $50/4, rrp is $80/4. They are better than the FP-126 on the D1, not as good as the FP-101 but are also not bright sounding and go for 1/3 of the price of the FP-101.
-
Thanks for the input, Dave. That's all very interesting to keep in mind. Synergy is certainly everything when it comes to this level of tweaking/performance. I've done comparison listening sessions where it was completely clear one component or cable was superior, but then six months later after a change somewhere else in the system the same comparison yielded the opposite result! Synergy, synergy, synergy. It's maddening, but true.
-
Thanks for the input, Dave. That's all very interesting to keep in mind. Synergy is certainly everything when it comes to this level of tweaking/performance. I've done comparison listening sessions where it was completely clear one component or cable was superior, but then six months later after a change somewhere else in the system the same comparison yielded the opposite result! Synergy, synergy, synergy. It's maddening, but true.
I agree!
One quick story... maybe 6-7 years ago I just got my Omega Super 3 XRS and a neighbor had Maxhemps (Super 3 = 4.5" driver, Maxhemp = 8" driver). I built 2 IC cables using Jupiter Condenser cotton insulated hook up wire, same cable except one was silver and the other was copper. The silver cable was clearly better with the Maxhemps and the copper cable was clearly better with the Super 3s.
There is no one cable or component that is going to match with every system and meet everyone's personal preference.
The D2, DD and speaker cables I am offering are made with the best parts available anywhere and I feel like at this level of performance synergy and preference are the most important factors.
-
Hey guys, just posting that I sent my address to genjamon for the next leg of the tour - thanks!
-
Without trying to figure out who's on first, Where abouts is tour one?
Thanks
Don
-
Hi Don, BobRex has them and you're up next! :thumb:
-
I think I'd like to join this tour...Daves cables have my interest piqued! :)
Where do I sign up?
-
Hi shaizada,
Sign up right here!
If you don't need an XLR cable I can get you in after OzarkTom, who is right after dflee so you'd get the cables in a few weeks.
Regards,
-Dave
-
Sounds good! Actually, I'd like to give a test run to the XLR and the Single Ended cables...both of them.
I just recently got a Jorma Unity cable for use with a particular Phono stage/turntable setup in my system. I'm hoping to try your cables in that position and see how it compares.
I wouldn't mind selling the Jorma Unity if it comes to that!
Thanks Dave. Consider me signed up. Let me know who needs my shipping address.
-
Genjamon,
You said you listened to "OCC litz braided" speaker cables. Are you talking about the 14 gauge cotton litz wire that Dave is selling or some other "litz" wire?
Ric
-
Ric, He's talking about another litz-braided speaker cable, not the cables I have.
@shaizada, OK, I have a set of cables with XLR going around, I will put you on that tour.
-
If you have an opening on the single ended tour, I'd love to hear your work.
Still waiting on my Daedalus upgrades; after that I'm open to cable changes.
-
Hi all. Been notified by genjamon the cables have shipped to me in Seattle :thumb:
-
Ric, He's talking about another litz-braided speaker cable, not the cables I have.
@shaizada, OK, I have a set of cables with XLR going around, I will put you on that tour.
Thanks! I'd like to hear the RCA version as well if possible.
-
jonbee, no problem. :)
shaizada, there will be single ended cables as well.
-
Anybody compare these yet to Wywires or KCI Silkworm products yet? I would be curious your findings.
Missing the DD in my system since I sent the cables off to pfarthing...
-
Missing the DD in my system since I sent the cables off to pfarthing...
I was having the same thoughts last night, Dave's created a real audiophile problem for me and I don't appreciate it one bit.
Marketing 101, give them a taste and once the sugar hits their tongue they will crave more until the desire is met or they will want forever. :D
-
I was having the same thoughts last night, Dave's created a real audiophile problem for me and I don't appreciate it one bit.
Marketing 101, give them a taste and once the sugar hits their tongue they will crave more until the desire is met or they will want forever. :D
That would be a great name for a cable. "Sugar" - Once you have it you will always want it. Could also be used in Vegas though.
-
I was having the same thoughts last night, Dave's created a real audiophile problem for me and I don't appreciate it one bit.
Marketing 101, give them a taste and once the sugar hits their tongue they will crave more until the desire is met or they will want forever. :D
Thanks for the reminder, Launche. I went back and re-read your comments just now from Sept. 9. I would agree fully with those thoughts. Those comments were kind of difficult to interpret and didn't mean that much to me when you first wrote them, but they make complete sense now that I've actually heard the same things in my own system and am feeling the same withdrawal at this point.
I guess I'd say it's like an elegant simplicity and clarity. Back with my other cables now, there's a kind of greater harmonic complexity than with the DD, but I'm perceiving more and more that it must be resonances and reflections or something in the cable - artificial. And it smears the imaging and instrument separation. This is alright for rocking out with rock music, but on most other stuff you know there's more there to be heard and experienced.
Grrrr.... not sure I'm gonna be able to hold out for much longer
-
That would be a great name for a cable. "Sugar" - Once you have it you will always want it. Could also be used in Vegas though.
Lol, thanks for the comments. How about "Heroin" ...you really CAN'T stop listening? :icon_twisted:
-
OK, on tour 1 dflee is ready to ship them out, jonbee is next, pm sent to you guys.
On tour 2, pfarthing is checking out the cables this weekend and JerryM is up next after him, JerryM, you have a pm as well.
-
Hi guys. Just checking in. Got the cables last week but wasn't able to get to listening this weekend, unfortunately. I will tonight, though! Can I have the name and address for the next member sent to me? Thanks.
-
OK, sounds good. Looks like mikeeastman is after you, pm sent.
-
Dave the DD is a special IC period. No matter which position it is used in my system an improvement was had. Using the D2 from Plinius CDP [ rich character ] and the DD from preamp to mono blocks. Silver IC used previously were consistently thin in character. Not bright however no meat on the bone to speak of. The DD has weight and gestalt a rare combo for silver.
I am curious about using a silver RCA in lieu of copper. Duelund uses what for their ultra expensive for IC. Would like to have an all silver IC. Oh my !
charles
-
Thanks for the comments rollo, I'm happy the DD is working out for you :thumb:
Just to reiterate though... I don't expect the DD to work for everyone and the D2 is well worth trying too. Systems and personal preferences are too different to have one cable that everyone will like.
As for an all silver IC, the ground wires don't make as much of a difference as the signal but it does have an effect (as does pretty much everything) which is why I use UPOCC copper instead of much more expensive silver for the grounds. I do have an upgrade to UPOCC silver grounds and I can also make all-Duelund silver cable, either side-by-side which is what Duelund does for their own cable, or a 3 wire braid. It'll cost a lot more money though. For RCA plugs the only all silver plug I'd consider is the WBT at $408 for a set of 4.
So an all silver IC using a Duelund 3 strand braid and WBT silver RCAs would have to go for about $1k, that's getting up there and I'm not sure it would actually be a better cable than the current DD you have.
-
Hey pfarthing,
I have send my address to you. I am ready to try these ! Since you live in Seattle(?) they will be shipped across the country to Alabama. I'm looking forward to detailed listening session, hope they provide the sound I'm looking for.
-
I will be posting my comments in the Critics Circle. I believe they deserve notice to more people than just the tour group.
Don
-
I am posting my comments to the same thread as dflee in the Critics Circle.
In a nutshell- IMO Dave's ICs are a must hear anywhere in the vicinity of their price, against all comers. In particular, the DD really made me sit up and take notice.
-
Thanks jonbee. I appreciate taking the time to post up your impressions and I have to say the reviews have exceeded my expectations... I am very happy about that. :D
Here's a link to dflee's thread in the critic's circle:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=121240.0
@Vulcan00, the geographic region grouping has broken down near the end of the tour as new folks ask to be included since I added them in the order they messaged me.
-
I am posting my comments to the same thread as dflee in the Critics Circle.
In a nutshell- IMO Dave's ICs are a must hear anywhere in the vicinity of their price, against all comers. In particular, the DD really made me sit up and take notice.
Just an update. I tried them in my main system and got the same results. The DDs are the real deal, totally at home in the best, most resolving systems, and at a very attractive price for the quality on offer.
The 3-D, venue acoustic, and natural instrumental image rendering are all the best I've had in my systems. All of this is there with no artificial edginess whatever. These attributes are what separates the best from the very good, IMO.
I voted w/ my wallet and ordered a pair of balanced and a pair of unbalanced DDs today.
-
Hi, I am very interested and I am in Seattle. Is there any chance to try the cables while they are still in Seattle? Cheers!
-
Hi seavan, unfortunately I need to see a post history and involvement here on AC in order to be on the tour. I hate to turn anyone away but I'm sure you understand the reasoning. If you are seriously interested in a cable I do have a 30 day trial period so if it doesn't work out you can return it.
-
Hi seavan, unfortunately I need to see a post history and involvement here on AC in order to be on the tour. I hate to turn anyone away but I'm sure you understand the reasoning. If you are seriously interested in a cable I do have a 30 day trial period so if it doesn't work out you can return it.
Why not send him the tour pair but take payment just in case.
-
Hi, I am very interested and I am in Seattle. Is there any chance to try the cables while they are still in Seattle? Cheers!
As a last resort, I'll have my DDs in a couple of weeks and we can get together on something.
-
I'm liking the Vampire xhado RCAS lately.
charles
-
Jonbee, thank you! I really appreciate it!
-
Tour 2 update
I spent the weekend with several serous listening sessions with the interconnect of tour 2. I am ready to ship to the next person. I need the next person in line address.
I made several pages of notes and I will put my thoughts together shortly and report back.
Dave, thank you for the opportunity to be in this tour !
-
Jonbee, thanks for the offer, I appreciate it too :thumb:
Vulcan, I sent you and the next person on tour a pm.
rollo, yup Xhadows (Vampire's high end line) are very nice connectors. They aren't Furutech FP-101s though...
-
OK, hanguy is up next and Vulcan send the cables to shaizada.
Just a quick reminder, please do not use much torque on the locking RCAs and remember they lock by screwing the barrel clockwise when viewed from the back and you loosen them by turning them ccw. If it takes more than a very small amount of torque to unlock them, then hold the rear part of the plug behind the locking barrel so you don't put torque on your RCA jack and possibly cause it to loosen. You should never need to use any sort of tool to install or remove them.
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
-
I just wanted to post a quick follow-up. I reviewed the tour sets a while back and at the time was somewhat on the fence about how much value they offered. I wanted to report back that I have actually purchased two pair of DD and couldn't be happier. They have about 200 hours on them now and are starting to come into their own. Initially, they the sound wasn't as full as the tour pairs, but they're starting to come along.
It was actually really interesting, because Dave had actually sent me another tour set of DD and his D3 this time, and I still had those when the new cables arrived. I was able to directly A/B the tour broken-in DD and the brand new ones, so I have a good sense of what they go through from fresh to fully broken-in.
And so I should probably say a few words about the DD vs the D3. My experience was that the D3 had the same kind of tonal balance as the D2, but probably a tad bit more detail and refinement than the DD. I ended up going with the DD because it was really very close and the tonal balance of the DD is a better synergy with my system. But in a system where warmer and fuller bodied isn't necessary, but more lit up and resolved is valued and a bit more higher frequency energy is alright (compared with the DD anyway, since it's a bit on the warmer end of things), the D3 is truly exceptional.
-
Thanks for the update genjamon.
So after testing on several systems the D3 is here, genjamon is exactly right that it is similar in character to the D2 but quite a bit better. The D3 provides an alternative to the DD for folks where the DD wasn't providing the proper synergy and tone for the system and the system's owner. From the feedback I have received everyone agrees the D3 is technically the better cable in terms of providing detail and resolution with a natural tone... but the DD is very close and provides a much different presentation that will work better with some systems.
It also seems like most people have found the DD to be better than the D2, and I wanted to offer something that has the same kind of characteristic sound of the D2 but with better tone, resolution and speed. The D3 provides this, and is probably a half step better than the DD, while the DD is a half step better than the D2.
The signal wire in the D3 is Neotech's brand new 99% silver / 1% gold alloy wire produced using the Ohno continuous casting process. Yes, this alloy has been used before by Mundorf and other cable companies, but it has not been produced using the OCC process until now. OCC wire is sonically FAR superior to conventional wire and this makes the new Neotech wire the best and most expensive wire for audio use on the planet right now.
Here's the world's smallest $2500 spool of wire... :green:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/NeotechAgGdWire004_zps2e1c25b6.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/NeotechAgGdWire004_zps2e1c25b6.jpg.html)
And the D3 cable:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06611_zps869ea0e8.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/DSC06611_zps869ea0e8.jpg.html)
-
:idea:
What gauge wire is the D3 and how many feet does a 1m cable require? The spool sticker above looks like 28 AWG. Yes?
:scratch:
-
:idea:
What gauge wire is the D3 and how many feet does a 1m cable require? The spool sticker above looks like 28 AWG. Yes?
:scratch:
There is a 4-strand braid of 28g wire, so it comes to ~22 gauge aggregate. Because of the braiding you need an extra few inches too.
I have found the gauge of the signal wire effects the tonal balance of the cable, 22 gauge seems to be a sweet spot although pure silver needs a heavier gauge of wire to sound balanced.
-
I've gotten the package! Luckily, I've been able to start listening to some of the cables and looks like we've started on a positive note (pun intended).
I am taking some notes and will post them later. What I AM enjoying right now is the simple ability to pin down the sound easily...really makes my life easier. More soon.
-
Sounds good shaizada!
A few pics of the D3
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-D3andDDXLRCables001_zps391f132d.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-D3andDDXLRCables001_zps391f132d.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-D3andDDXLRCables008_zpsed7f5170.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-D3andDDXLRCables008_zpsed7f5170.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-D3andDDXLRCables011_zps561edf09.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-D3andDDXLRCables011_zps561edf09.jpg.html)
-
mdfoy wrote a great review of the DD/D3 on AN, I reposted it below:
As far as the Duelund 2.0 wire, I'm going to try it out for speaker cables since it's 2x as much silver as the 1.0 wire but for ICs there are only minor differences.
After participating in the Dave 2 and DD tour, I did some research on the Dueland wire and found out that there was a 2.0 version of the wire. I pinged Dave to get his opinion on the wire and Dave being Dave was way ahead of me and offered me the opportunity to check out the Duelund 2.0 and D3 cables. Below are my finding of these cables in my system. I had a mishap with my digital source and did the review of these cables on my vinyl source. Making lemonade out the these lemons, I got to check out the DD 2.0 and d3 exclusively in my system, switching tem on source to pre, and pre to amp.
Base configuration - set the baseline
Clarity Harvest II on source to pre, D2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
The Harvest II is a nice cable, it does nothing wrong, but cymbals can get a little more tinny than brassy. One of its strongest points is being very quiet due to the damping in the connectors. A nice cable, and we know about the D2, low noise floor, great tone, good detail.
System configuration 1 - DD.2 on source to pre, D2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
The DD allows all of the detail on the record come through and has very good coherence, and very clean. This is a configuration that I had on the a previous except the DD is now the DD.2. An example, Travels, Are you going with me, the level of articulation on the DD.2 exceeds the Harvest in all frequencies. This cut gets very busy, and all notes are clear and present with the DD.2. They get a little messy in the Harvest. mind you, this is only revealed after a listen with the DD.2. Sonic memory is fleeting, but I believe the DD.2 may be a little cleaner than the DD. This was revealed in the next configuration.
System configuration 2 - DD.2 on source to pre, D3 on pre to amp, Coz SC
This combination made me stop using my cables, and just switch position of the DD.2 and D3. It was made abundantly clear that the D2 was not up to par with the D3. The level of detail and flow from the DD.2 was allowed to flow unabated by the D2. There was detail, depth and weight exposed that was not there with the D2. Sketches of Spain, Solea, this is one of my favorite pieces of all time, at the crescendo, just a beautiful thing. The level of clarity allowed to be displayed by the D3 made the D2 appear broken. I won't say that the D3 smokes or any other colorful words to describe the difference between the two cables, but will just say that I am buying the D3.
System configuration 3 - D3 on source to pre, DD.2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
It is clear the that the presentations of the DD.2 and D3 are different. The level of detail provided by the DD.2 is pretty even with the D3, but the tonal weight of the cables is different. Herbie Hancock, River, Tea leaf Prophecy, Jonie Mitchell's voice had a warmth that the DD.2 did not, and the piano lower register had more weight. The bass on Cassandra Wilson, Blue Moon Daughter, Strange fruit was just more profound. These differences were not terrible or indicating a weakness, but different. The difference in presentation was further clarified to me when in the next configuration.
System configuration 4 - D3 source to pre, D2 on pre to amp, Coz SC
I brought the D2 back in the mix to check a thought I had on the differences between the DD.2 and D3. Everything in configuration 2 was right on, but the weight and tone was heavier with the D3 than with the DD.2. The same level of detail, body, tone, space, dynamics, space, noise floor, but more solid. The DD.2 would be a Vanessa Williams the singer, the D3 would be is Serena Williams, the tennis player, big, strong agile, and a brother likes a thick chick!
All said, in my system the DD.2 and D3 are both very nice cables and have a quality that is easily heard. Both improve upon the D2. How large an improvement is up to you and your system. In my system, the D3 provided a level of enjoyment that is hard to resist. My system was configured for clarity and accuracy. Choices were made to balance a touch warmer than neutral amp, with touch cleaner tube preamp, speakers are dead accurate. The D3 most clearly enhanced the sound. I am going for in my system. I need to figure out how I am going to get at least 2 pair.
Once again, I thank Dave for the opportunity to participate in the tour.
Music
Pat Metheny, Travels Live
Miles Davis/Gil Evans, Sketches of Spain
Herbie Hancock, River
Steely Dan, Greatest Hits
Cassandra Wilson, Blue Moon Daughter
My system
Amp Odyssey Khartago mono's ++
Pre Response Audio Bella-Max(Purity One prototype)
Speaker Salk HT1
Phono Heed Quasar
TT Thorens TD-125 MKII, Audiomods Series 5 tone arm, SAE 1000E
IC Pre to amp - Dave II
IC Phono to pre - Clarity Cable - Harvest
SP Coz bi-wire
Happy holidays to all!
-
A few pics of a DD XLR cable:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/5-D3andDDXLRCables028_zpsfe8e44f1.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/5-D3andDDXLRCables028_zpsfe8e44f1.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/7-D3andDDXLRCables053_zps01d94006.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/7-D3andDDXLRCables053_zps01d94006.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/8-D3andDDXLRCables060_zps1e6a40e5.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/8-D3andDDXLRCables060_zps1e6a40e5.jpg.html)
-
This is about the D3 cable.
Previously I have written about how much I enjoyed the DD cable ( I was part of the cable tour.)
Subsequent to that time, Dave asked if I would be interested in comparing the D3 to the DD.
Being an audiophile, and having a chance to hear something new, I of course said yes.
The difference between the DD and the D3 is that the D3 using wire that contains 1% gold.
Now when I first heard about this 1% gold wire (Audiophile Fuses) I thought that it was great marketing, and nothing more.
As is usually the case, I was wrong.
Comparing the two IC's, I found myself preferring the D3.
The difference, both got the timing right, but the tone of the D3 is exemplary.
There is a rightness to the tone that borders on beauty. Once again I fall back on the expression that it is listenable.
The test I use for tone is the Alto Saxophone of Johnny Hodges.
The cut I used is Jeeps Blues from Ellington At Newport. Not a great recorded CD, but with the D3 you can understand
how Johnny Hodges melts the crowd during his solo.
The D3 does not diminish the DD, which still stands as a great IC.
The D3 is an IC that both nails the timing and the tone.
-
I've been listening to the DD and D3 for a couple of days now.
I had ordered 2 pair of DDs, but Dave allowed me to audition the D3 before shipping my order. I must say my findings really match the others' in most regards.
Dave's D3 cables differ from the DD in that instead of using the wonderful Duelund silver wire, are made from Neotech gold/ OCC silver wire- very expensive stuff, but in this case well worth the cost.
The D3 cable offers the classic benefits of fine silver-very transparent, detailed and focused, but are uncharacteristic of silver in that they are very dynamic, with rich tonality, amazingly powerful yet focused bass, and very impressive image density. A big sound, no thinness or brightness here. Very 3-d.
Compared to Dave's impressive DD: both are really top notch ICs, but with different presentations. DD is more laid back, with a soundstage deep behind the speakers, while D3 is bolder, a bit brighter, with good depth behind, but also well in front of the speakers. The D3 has very saturated tone, making the images very palpable.
Both the DD and the D3 are at home in the most resolving systems, but perhaps the DD is a better choice in bright or forward systems.
As I wrote in my earlier comments on the DD, I've used well over 100 pairs of ICs listing at $100-1000 over the years, and both these simply sound more like real music than the others.
YMMV, but for me, in my system, they are killer good and a great value for truly high end sound.
I changed my DD order to D3s.
-
Sorry about the double post
-
D1 XLR
======
I put this cable in between my Ray Samuels B52 Preamp and my EAR 890 Amplifier. The cable the D1 XLR replaced was my Kimber KCAG XLR.
With the replacement, the first thing I noticed is that the D1 XLR did absolutely no harm. The system remained musical and extremely enjoyable. Hence, since I did not wince at first listen (a very good sign), I kept playing my familiar test tracks.
The D1 XLR is very inviting and smooth from bottom bass registers to the vocal range. The cable seems to have a somewhat laid back character which enhances the musicality and listenability.
The bottom end seemed to be more round sounding and flowing into the vocal range nicely. Compared to the Kimber KCAG, the KCAG manages to be even more smoother but with much more definition. The D1 XLR maintains the transient information, but the edges of the beginning and ending of a note is slightly blurred. Hence, the D1 XLR makes for a pleasant listen, but loses out on definition that is on the recording.
From the vocals on up, the D1 XLR is reserved. The information is there, but becomes part of the music as more background. The shimmer and air around cymbals seems diminished compared to the KCAG. The information is there, but rounded and somewhat receded. Again, makes for a pleasant listen, but after a while, I was less engaged with the music.
For me, I would probably use the D1 XLR in a system that is more forward or analytical sounding to bring in some "humanity". It will help to flesh out tones and textures while maintaining a musical poise. However, in a finely tuned system, it must be placed strategically to ensure the system moves in a direction you want it to. I like this D1 XLR cable, but it's not for me at the moment.
D1 RCA:
======
This particular cable was put between my VPI turntable and the EAR 324 phono stage. This is the only area my system used a single ended cable at the moment as the rest of the system uses balanced XLR cables. The D1 RCA replaced a run of Jorma Unity RCA cable which runs $4000 a meter.
The D1 RCA sounded great in this setting from the get go. The top end came in beautifully this time and did not have a recess as in the XLR version. Cymbal work shimmered with very good air, actually excellent air but still less than the Jorma Unity.
Now comes the juicy part! The mid bass on this cable is sublime. The heart of the music beats with colors full of life and vigor. There is a slight midrange oriented sheen on the music, but I absolutely love it. Again, that "human" factor is prevalent in spades. Voices, guitar tones, overtones, bass lines, horns, wood winds, brass instruments come in with stunning musicality. This RCA D1 is just a winner. I don't see any system it will NOT work in. It is pulling in lots of definition and serving it with such passion, I would not mind having this cable in my stable of RCA cables. Winner for all types of systems.
D2 RCA:
=======
Again, put between the VPI Turntable and the EAR 324 phono stage, this cable is clearly cut form the same cloth, however, it is slightly more balanced (or read another way, closer to the neutral side of the sound spectrum). Slightly less "fleshy" than the D1, but now this cable is portraying yet another additional level of detail and clarity in the musical spectrum.
Listening to the D2, I feel there is more information coming through the cable, but with further listening it becomes clear that it is the change in presentation that seems to make this so. I feel the top end has opened up more with more definition, the mids and bass, as a result seem less plump but portray more definition again.
In short, I feel the D2 has more definition and transient information coming through with the slight musical plumpness diminished compared to the D1. I actually really liked that about the D1!
D2 is a winner again. I would most likely use this in a more traditionally tube based system. I would probably shy away from this cable in a solid state system unless the solid state has a nice big/rounded bottom end. Definition, linearity, transparency is the name of the game here.
DD RCA:
=======
Used in the same position as the others, this is the best cable of the lot for me. This has a blend of both the strengths of D1 and D2 in my system with a natural presentation.
I am now getting the nice bottom end with full musicality without extra fat. The top end is open and airy while the mids are properly fleshed out. This is now closer to the balance offered by my Jorma Unity RCA cables. The Jorma provides even more information in terms of soundstage height, width, depth, bottom end, mids and a much more information in the top WITHOUT being bright.
The DD sounds like a Jorma Unity, but less of everything. I guess, the Jorma Unity gives more in all respects akin to a Mercedes S-Class. The DD is also a Mercedes, but more of an E-Class. This doesn't take anything away from the DD as sometimes you don't want to be driving an S-class all the time :) I really really like this DD cable and think it can easily be used in any kind of system allowing the music to come through without crimping it in any way. This is my kind of cable and the winner out of all three in a finely tuned system. The other cables would work great and could be a better match in a given kind of system. In the end, I guess it all depends on the setup, the room, the listener and the music.
Thank you so much Dave. You are obviously on the right path as the DD cable compares nicely to some of the more expensive cables on the market…just like you set out to do. Congrats on the achievement!
NOTE: I made sure NOT to read any of the reviews of these cables to ensure my thoughts are not influenced in any way. Looks like a lot of the conclusions I drew fit along side experiences of others.
My System:
- Marten Design Bird 2 Speakers
- Chord QBD76HDSD Dac, EAR Dacute Dac
- VPI TNT VI "Hot Rod" Turntable, JMW 12.5 Tonearm, HRX Motor, Superplatter or Aluminum Platter, Van Den Hul Grasshopper III GLA Phono Cartridge,
- Scheu Premier III Turntable, Schroeder Model 2 Tonearm, Jan Allaerts Cartridge
- EAR 324 Phono Stage, Jadis DPMC Phonostage, Einstein Turntables Choice Phono, Ray Samuels F-117 Phonostage, Eddie Current Transcription Phonostage
- EAR 868 Preamp, Ray Samuels B52 Preamp
- EAR 890 Amplifier
- Power Conditioning by Exactpower EP15a, Exactpower SP15ax4, Richard Gray 400s
- Cabling is Kubala Sosna Emotion, Kimber, Furutech, Harmonix for signal and power.
*NOTE: I'll be ready to ship the cables out by next thursday or so. Dave, please send me the shipping details of the next person please.
Thanks!
-
Wow, thanks for the great review shaizada! :thumb:
I appreciate your honest and well thought out reviews. I would especially like you to evaluate the D3 interconnect cables since you have such a good reference, I have heard a few people say they prefer once cable or another over the DDs to a small degree or as a matter of personal preference but most people say they the best they have tried. I hope the D3 can equal the Jorma in your system or I will be forced to improve upon it until it does. :green: I think though, that it will take pure silver RCA plugs and also silver/gold returns to make put it in the same league as the Jorma, but I can make such a cable for about $1k retail. I have not been ready to go there but I don't want ANY cable to be better than the ones I am offering of course. :wink: Lucky for me, the potential customers for a Jorma Unity and Dave's DD don't overlap too much, lol...
-
A couple updates....
1. I am building more D3 interconnects and will be sending a couple pair on tour, probably with the DD for comparison. If anyone is interested, I will probably have the cables ready to go in 2-3 weeks, I want to make sure they they are thoroughly burned in. I may also send speaker cables, or do a separate tour. Not sure on that one.
2. I am currently listening to a 24/196 rip of the Dark Side of the Moon Black Triangle vinyl with Duelund silver speaker cables and holy crap they are good. They are probably better than ANY copper based speaker cable, the difference is very much like the difference between the D2 and DD interconnect cables, which is exactly what I was expecting. The only downside is price, but with the amount of silver wire needed for speaker cables I can afford to offer them for well under the retail price of the wire and connectors. So this could be a big win-win for those who would appreciate what are probably some of the world's best speaker cables.
The Duelund 1.0 wire is ~19 gauge and would be good for mids/highs or low powered systems. The 2.0 is what I'm using and it's ~16 gauge and should be good for an 8 ohm speaker of average sensitivity. A double run would get down to 13 gauge but oh my god it would be expensive.
As far as price, just for example for example an 8' set of cables using very high end Furutech FT series spades and bananas would cost $1275. I know that isn't cheap, but I actually feel the value for the money is pretty good as these speaker cables perform at an amazingly high level. Not sure I can go back to using copper! :evil:
Opinions and comments welcome!
-
Wow, thanks for the great review shaizada! :thumb:
I appreciate your honest and well thought out reviews. I would especially like you to evaluate the D3 interconnect cables since you have such a good reference, I have heard a few people say they prefer once cable or another over the DDs to a small degree or as a matter of personal preference but most people say they the best they have tried. I hope the D3 can equal the Jorma in your system or I will be forced to improve upon it until it does. :green: I think though, that it will take pure silver RCA plugs and also silver/gold returns to make put it in the same league as the Jorma, but I can make such a cable for about $1k retail. I have not been ready to go there but I don't want ANY cable to be better than the ones I am offering of course. :wink: Lucky for me, the potential customers for a Jorma Unity and Dave's DD don't overlap too much, lol...
You are welcome.
Dave, I look forward to the D3 and would prefer to have the DD around at the time. Might I suggest you having a run of RCA and Balanced for both the DD and D3 if possible. It is very clear that the connectors used play a major sonic role in the overall sound. I think that would be much better to understand where these cables are headed.
If they can beat the cables in my system, I would GLADLY purchase a set and get rid of some of the cables I have. Let me know and we can figure it out. Please ensure that the cables are fully burned in before we evaluate.
In fact, I suggest you do your cost no object cable and see how it stands with the competition...I will gladly do a review.
-
I've received my order of single ended and balanced D3s from Dave, as well as demo DDs and speaker cables.
I'm extremely please with all of them. The D3 has a 3D soundstage, extreme detail and ambience retrieval, and a very black background. They have perfect balance, lifelike dynamics and refinement at the same time. No ugly artifacts, and no obfuscation either. They have truly beautiful tone as well, and a joy to listen to.
I'm trying out his 14 ga. speaker cables now, and I'm pleased to report they have a very similar sound to the D3- full bodied, wide open, clear as a bell and yet refined. I'm buying a pair of them for my big rig. They are a dead steal at Dave's price.
I've been listening to a demo pair of DDs as well, and while in my big rig I prefer the D3, the speakers in my office are a tiny bit bright, and the DDs mesh perfectly with them. At some point I'll buy a pair of DDs for that system.
Over the last year or so I've used Zu Event, Cerious Reference, Acrotec 2050, Discovery Essence, and Grover Huffman ZX+, Anti-ICs ICs, among others, and Clear Day double shotgun, Anti-cables, Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun, Zu Libtec, LAT SSD1000 and Nanotech SR79 speaker cables. Dave's cables are CLEARLY better than any of these in my systems, in most cases dramatically so.
As always, matchups are key, but Dave has a generous return policy, so I recommend you try them out if you're looking for something to try in their price range or a good bit higher.
Thanks to Dave for offering such fine products at reasonable prices. This is one case where spending more than you would for "affordably good" cables can provide substantial sonic benefits.
-
Hi John, thanks for posting your comments on the cables. I agree the SCs and D3 ICs have a similar sound, the D2 ICs do as well but are not in the same league as the D3. I'd love to make silver/gold speaker cables but a 8 foot set of 15 gauge cables would use $3300 worth of wire. :o
In any case, I do think the 14 gauge Neotech EC-UPOCC wire is the best copper wire for audio use, with the caveat that it is less forgiving than regular copper cables... but the Neotech wire is clearer, more detailed and more dynamic in return.
Any comments or interest in a speaker cable or combined SC/IC tour? The D3 ICs with SCs used at the same time will give you the full impact of what the Neotech UPOCC wiring will do for your system, with the DD available as an alternative vs the D3.
-
Oh, also in John's comments above D2 refers to the DD interconnect with Duelund 2.0 wire.
-
Oh, also in John's comments above D2 refers to the DD interconnect with Duelund 2.0 wire.
Sorry about that. I changed the references to "DD".
I agree that the DD, D3, and SCs sound very special together- in particular, the soundstage widened and deepened dramatically in my system. Very cool to experience.
-
I just received my order of Dave's speaker cables, so now I have a complete "loom" of single ended and balanced D3 ICs and Dave's SCs, end to end. All I can say is "Wow". With no break in of the speaker cables the resulting improvement over my Grover Z+ and Nanotech SCs is even more than I could have hoped for. The result gets me much closer to the event, I feel, with the benefits from highs to lows, front to back and sideways. The result is captivating.
I should add, that as Dave said, the speaker cables do have a strong but extremely clear and clean top end. Not bright, but lifelike, IMO, and this should be considered when deciding whether they will match up well in any particular system. in my case, I needed a little more top end than I had with my previous cables, which are slightly rolled off. The SCs gave me exactly what I wanted, but as always with cables, one size does not fit all. In a too bright system these speaker cables will not help tone it down, but may still improve the sound by virtue of the very clean top end.
The Huffmans and Nanotechs are very good for their price, and I have kept them in my other 2 systems, but Dave's D3 ICs and speaker cables show them clean heels in a hi-rez sytem.
The performance/value ratio in these cables is very high. They are about 2x the price of what I had been using, but less than many I've used, and in my system they trounce the rest, regardless of cost. In fine systems incremental improvement get very pricey, as we all know, but in this case the extra $ gets a larger benefit than I'm used to getting for the $.
All I can say is, with the usual caveats about matchups, give 'em a try!
My system: Daedalus Audio RMa V2, Hypex N-core NC400 amps, Audio-GD C-3 preamp, dedicated Windows 7 music server running J-river 19, Musical fidelity V192 usb converter, Eastern electric minimax dac plus w/ dexa op amps, Sources powered by a PS Audio Power Plant premier chained to a Pi Audio Rev B, lots of good, selected power cables.
-
Hi John, Thanks for your comments!
I am working on getting D3 interconnect cables and speaker cables built and burned in for a tour, and will hopefully be able to get them ready by the end of the month. :)
-
Hi!
Still working on getting demo D3 cables ready, it's getting closer! The D3s have proven to be pretty popular and so far they have not lost a listening comparison against ANYTHING. So I am very happy about that as there has been some stiff competition... the Neotech silver/gold alloy wire is probably unbeatable right now. :green:
I am also testing out RCA connectors for the next cable, which will be an all out assault on making the world's best IC cable. With Neotech as a design partner and the new silver/gold wire I think it is achievable. The geometry will be too complicated to make by hand so I may attempt to crowd-fund the project via kickstarter as the minimum order of cable and connectors will be very expensive.
Here's some pics of the connectors that will be compared on the current D3 cable. After the cables are built, burnt in and tested I will post a thread about connectors in the path of least resistance so it can be a resource. I am unaware of another comparison of connectors at this level so it should be helpful for those who are considering spending around 4 bills on RCA connectors.
Furutech:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-RCAs002_zps659e0224.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-RCAs002_zps659e0224.jpg.html)
Neotech:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-RCAs003_zps74ebfccc.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-RCAs003_zps74ebfccc.jpg.html)
WBT/Mundorf:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-RCAs005_zps6a2a59e0.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-RCAs005_zps6a2a59e0.jpg.html)
Xhadow (more of an alternative to my current Furutech FP-101 than a choice for the higher end cable, but who knows?)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/3-RCAs004_zps2536ad8b.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/3-RCAs004_zps2536ad8b.jpg.html)
-
Dave,
It will be good for you to hear to OCC/Rhodium (Furutech CF-102R and the Neotech NER-OCC RH) vs. Silver (OFC/Silver Xhadow and WBT/Mundorf 99% Silver/1%Gold).
Don't know what the base material is for the WBT/Mundorf center pin (if there is another base metal).
The differences and how they mate with the D3 will be interesting and informative.
-
Hi maxima, the WBT/Mundorf center pin and ground pin is made of Mundorf's silver/gold alloy with platinum plating. I am thinking it may do well with the Neotech OCC silver/gold alloy wire. :D
I have tried a few other connectors with rhodium plating and I thought it was too bright in the Furutech plugs with the filament type center pins (FP-106 I think), I liked it better than gold plating on UPOCC copper center pins, but I have not tried the CF plugs yet. The gold plated FP-101s I use on the D2, D3 and DD are really excellent and not horribly expensive like the other plugs I'm trying. I think the Xhadows will be very good and may be offered as an alternative to the FP-101s to customize the sound to the customers preference and system.
This is not an inexpensive test, but it is necessary to make sure the next cable will live up to it's expectations. while there are other plugs out there, the ones I have chosen have been carefully selected and represent the absolute best RCA connectors available.
-
That's a very interesting project! I'd love to hear about it.
BTW, my DDs came today for my office system. The speakers there use RAAL ribbon tweeters. With many ICS they are balanced a bit hot, but with the DDs they are smooth, natural and very spacious, without losing detail or dynamics. Lovely sound. The D3s in this system were a bit too forward, while in my main system my preferences were reversed. Matchups are key, but both cables offer very high quality, refined sound, and at a very attractive, even unbeatable, price. The speaker cables are an even bigger bargain, so I've re-wired my two best systems with Dave's cables, and the sound is just awe inspiring.
-
Hi John, Congrats on your 666th post :icon_twisted:
I'm glad to hear you got the DD, and as you said it is a great match for some systems while the D3 is better in others... the D3 is really a more neutral and accurate cable while the DD is more laid back and matches well with bright/hot systems or when personal preference leans to a more relaxed and romantic sound.
I am building D3s as fast as I can to get demos burnt in and the new connectors tested!
-
I am building D3s as fast as I can to get demos burnt in and the new connectors tested!
Nice to hear your good work is being recognized!
-
Hi Audiocircle!
I am getting some demo cables ready to send on tour. :green:
1. There will be a pair of 12' long 14 gauge speaker cables made with the UPOCC copper litz-type wire that is my exclusive product. It will have Furutech FT-211/212 locking bananas and spade connectors. The cable is very accurate, detailed and revealing, somewhat forward and bright compared to regular copper, but with NO harshness or undesirable artifacts. If you are using regular copper speaker cables these will be a huge improvement if you have decent equipment. I am also sending a set of jumpers with Furutech FP-201 spades with gold and rhodium plating.
2. There will be D3 and a D3 XLR interconnect cables. AC member RPM123 will burn in the D3 XLRs for me, the others are built and burning in as I type this message. The D3 is turning out to be, in many cases, quite a bit better than the Duelund cable... and it has been compared with some very expensive cables and it hasn't lost a listening comparison yet. The Neotech UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire is really incredible!
I picked these cables because I think the 14g SCs + D3 ICs are the best value combination of cables for a high end audio system. The speaker cables could be (slightly) outdone by UPOCC silver cables priced in the $5k+ range and the D3 ICs are among the best in the world already so you might be looking in the $3k+ range to try to top them. So for around $1k I can provide a set of cables that you will need very deep pockets to try to do any better and for most systems it doesn't make sense to spend in the $10k range just for cabling as those funds would be better allocated elsewhere. For many folks that have decent equipment but just ok cabling using these cables will be a major night-and-day kind of a difference.
And I think that's going to be it for the tour cables because the value of the cables is getting up there. One caveat... if you participate the shipping insurance will cost a bit, the value of the cables is near $1900 and I would be ok with insurance for $1600. I expect in most cases insured shipping will cost around $30-35 and signatures will probably be required. UPS or FedEx is ok.
So far RPM123, maxima95(?), mikeeastman, Ozark Tom, maybe shaizada?
Please let me know if you are interested in being on this tour. You must have a post history (50 minimum) here on AC!
-
Ummm, yes please!!!
-
I picked these cables because I think the 14g SCs + D3 ICs are the best value combination of cables for a high end audio system. The speaker cables could be (slightly) outdone by UPOCC silver cables priced in the $5k+ range and the D3 ICs are among the best in the world already so you might be looking in the $3k+ range to try to top them. So for around $1k I can provide a set of cables that you will need very deep pockets to try to do any better and for most systems it doesn't make sense to spend in the $10k range just for cabling as those funds would be better allocated elsewhere. For many folks that have decent equipment but just ok cabling using these cables will be a major night-and-day kind of a difference.
Amen. I'm very pleased since I've switched to D3s and Dave's SCs. My listening group came over last week and they were very impressed with the sound too. I highly recommend AC-ers take Dave up on this tour. It's the best way I know of to try out great gear in one's own system.
-
I'm interested in being on the tour; although from everything I've read, the DD's might be more to my listening preferences.
Best,
Randy
-
Sent a PM. Love to be on the tour especially the D3 XLR cables. You can put me at the bottom of the list as I won't be available until 2nd week of March.
Thanks, Dave :thumb:
-
Looking forward to the tour and I hope they arrive before the long weekend! :D
-
I'm looking forward to this. I've wanted to hear the 14 ga speaker cables for some time, particularly with those nice connectors. I currently have a DD RCA and would like to hear the D3. The D3 XLR is a great bonus because I now need an XLR cable. I can find a way to try the jumpers also.
-
Hi everyone!
I got the package out to RPM123 today, so not in time for the weekend but I wanted the SCs and single ended ICs to get a good burn-in. I tried to drop off the package at a UPS drop box yesterday but it got jammed inside the drop box... I didn't want to leave the package where someone could possibly steal it and it took some force to get the thing back out. Lol, glad the cops weren't passing by at the time, it wouldn't have looked good. :duh:
So far on the tour we have:
RPM123
maxima95
mikeeastman
Ozark Tom
Chris Adams
Audioclyde
sounddog
poseidonsvoice
guf
jd3
teeetee
Let me know if anyone else is interested!
Also, @Audioclyde I have been recommending the D3 over the DD for most systems lately. The DD is still the best choice for some systems, especially those that are a little on the hot and bright side, shouty (midrange peak) or have a rising frequency response. So if you try the D3 and feel it is too forward, bright or unforgiving then the DD would be worth a listen... but overall it's not as accurate, clear or detailed as the D3, and the D3's tone is just amazing, very realistic. Also, every once in a while I have run into systems where the DD just falls flat and doesn't work at all where that never happens with the D3 (knock on wood :green:).
The D3 has been coming out on top in listening comparisons against some really nice cables including recently the Nordost Valhallas which go for $4500, Analysis Plus silver, and many others. The Neotech silver/gold alloy is a breakthrough product, probably the world's best wire for audio use right now.
-
Dave,
I've got the D2 XLR's and would love to try the D3's if I can be added to the tour.
-
Dave,
Would like to try your D3 RCA cable and speaker cable. Please add me to your tour
thanks
-
This is great, I appreciate the interest! :thumb:
Since there is a decent amount of interest I am thinking about sending out a 2nd tour package... a set of 8' speaker cables and 1 meter D3 single ended interconnects. I have both of those items burnt-in and ready to go. If you do not need the XLR version of the D3 and 8' speaker cables are long enough for you to try out let me know and we can get you guys on a separate tour so people won't have to wait as long.
-
Dave,
I only need RCA IC and speaker cable
Thanks
-
This is great, I appreciate the interest! :thumb:
Since there is a decent amount of interest I am thinking about sending out a 2nd tour package... a set of 8' speaker cables and 1 meter D3 single ended interconnects. I have both of those items burnt-in and ready to go. If you do not need the XLR version of the D3 and 8' speaker cables are long enough for you to try out let me know and we can get you guys on a separate tour so people won't have to wait as long.
Dave,
You can add me to that group. Thanks!
-
Sounds like fun, please add me to the 2nd Tour. How many IC's are included in the package? Not to be greedy but to get the full experience I would need 2 pair (rca): preamp to amp and DAC to preamp.
Wayne in Tucson
-
Hi Dave,
I'm interested in joining the tour. I'm in no hurry. Not sure what's in the tour package... maybe PM me?
Thanks- Doug
-
OK, 2nd package is ready to go!
lokie, I am sending out speaker cables and interconnect cables in 2 tour packages. One tour has a balanced interconnect as well as single ended, one has single ended ics only... let me know if you want an XLR cable or not.
-
OK, 2nd package is ready to go!
lokie, I am sending out speaker cables and interconnect cables in 2 tour packages. One tour has a balanced interconnect as well as single ended, one has single ended ics only... let me know if you want an XLR cable or not.
I'm in NH and would also love to try your speaker cables and single ended IC's. Thanks for the opportunity!
-
Sounds good audiogoober, will do!
Update... the 2nd tour package is on it's way to teetee and RPM123 has the 1st tour package and has been burning in the XLR cables for me.
Also, I have been testing the new connectors and it's very close between the Furutech CF-102(R) and the WBT/Mundorf Nexgen RCAs. I don't like to rush to conclusions so I will just make the observation so far that the Mundorf is the more accurate RCA plug. The Furutech emphasizes the lows and highs a bit (rhodium plating) and has a bit more fullness (not necessarily a good thing, depends on the recording/system). The looks and construction of the CF-102(R) is amazing, but the WBT is no slouch... it is plastic but the design is 100x better than the Eichman RCAs. The WBTs do require solder while the Furutech has set screws, which is better, but with today's solder (mundorf silver/gold) it's not a big deal.
And more ongoing experiments to keep improving everything that remain top-secret for now... :wink:
-
so how does this work? if my name is on the list i just keep watching till i get close and then what?
-
Hi guf, Sorry, I've been lazy.... :icon_twisted:
The tour list is below, if you are in Group 1 and can move to Group 2 let me know, the cables will probably get to you faster and there is NO XLR cable, so less insurance and cheaper shipping.
When it is your turn I will send you a pm to make sure you are ready and get shipping details sorted out.
Group 1 (XLR and RCA ICs, 12' SCs w/bananas and spades)
RPM123
maxima95
poseidonsvoice
mikeeastman
Chris Adams (will probably just send you a D3 XLR soon since you don't need the others)
Ozark Tom
sounddog
tailspinrex
Group 2 (RCA ICs and 8' SCs w/spades)
teeetee
WGH
guf
audiogoober
seikosha
raysracing
-
Thanks, Dave! :thumb:
-
Yeah cool, put me in group 2.
-
Thanks Dave; looking forward to it.
Randy
-
Hi Dave,
Ron from www.newrecordday.com here... id like to review this bad boys... hit me up and lets talk shop.
Ron@newrecordday.com
-
OK, cables are going from RPM123 to maxima95 shortly.
Vedder, thanks for your interest I will contact you.
We should hear a couple reviews from last couple folks to receive the cables shortly... here are a couple comments posted in the reviews thread, that way I can keep them all in one place:
I had the pleasure of reviewing Dave’s cable in my system over the holiday. I focused on D2 and DD IC.
I installed the cable between my Buffalo III DAC and Van Alstine Avastar preamp. I need a 3m pair between my preamp and amp so I cannot test Dave’s IC in that location. The rest of my system consists of DIY Pass F5 AMP and GR Research Super-V speakers.
The interconnect I have been using between the DAC and preamp was a DIY cable using the very same center conductor as Dave’s D2 cable. The ground return wire is the same but without the Litz configuration and using Eichmann Gold Bullet Plugs. The D2 cable’s sonic signature is very similar to my DIY cable but has a little more heft in the bass and seems a little louder. The weak notes of music come through a little more clearly. I would consider the D2 cables are worthwhile upgrade considering the reasonable price of the D2 and the quality of material it uses.
Next up is the DD cable. This set of cable is in a totally different league. The presentation of the music is more or less the same as D2 but everything just got better. The music is more coherent and the bass is even more solid than D2. The image of everything seems to snap into focus. The image does not get larger than the D2 but it just seem more solid. For the lack of a better term, everything just got more musical. Considering the price difference between the D2 and the DD and the performance differences, the DD represents a better investment.
Mike
I have been saying since I received the DD that they are a very special cable. Period. Duelund wire as well as their caps due to lots of dielectric take serious time to stop changing.
Initially they sound dark in comparison to when fully broken in. Bass is there but not defined yet. the top extended but not fleshed out meaning the harmonics have yet to appear in their decay and glory.
With 700 hundred hours on them now they stopped changing. If you own these cables you are going to be surprised as to the end result. Not warm at all. Extremely neutral but without the leanness that usually goes along with neutral. These cables have gestalt [ balls ] that most do not. nothing is highlighted or blown up.
I am a top end freak. It better be natural and non Hi Fi sounding. These cables provide that in spades. Once you experience real like tonality and harmonics at first you may think the DD is rich. It is not it is accurate with zero HI Fi attributes. The sizzle, exaggerated sibilance brightness is MIA. Oh and did I say dead quite.
Now saying all that remember no cable is a "BEST" cable or wire. We can say though accurate tone, harmonics and PRAT is what makes this cable assembly a must try.
The D2 in direct comparison is different. A bit less meat on the bone detailed and a tad brighter presentation. Does that description mean not good ? Not at all just different. I cannot say that enough. We per ferred the D2 with tubed gear as opposed to SS. Especially digital source.
Dave the DD is an excellent product. The "best" ? no such thing a "difference" yes Sir and take that to the bank. The difference is staggering Oh and if you like like them you can keep them. Period.
charles
-
So I shipped Dave's D1, D2, and DD cables back to him recently promising to write up my impressions so here they are. Based on what I had previously read on this thread I decided to focus on the D2 and the DD. I started my evaluation by inserting the D2 between my Audiosector NOS dac and my Eastern Electric M88 Integrated. My speakers are the Audiokenesis Prismas which are extremely revealing of downstream component and cable changes so I was confident that if there were differences to be heard I would hear them. The D2 replaced a pair of MAC Palladium Sound Pipes. I used Steely Dan's "Things I miss the most" to conduct the evaluation.
So what did I hear? Well to be honest, although I expected to hear significant differences between the D2 and the MAC, I didn't. Could I detect a difference? Yes I could. Could I determine which was better. Not really. The differences were there but they were also very subtle. I swapped the MACs back in and again no major changes. The MAC really held its own against the D2. I guess that isn't too surprising because the MAC was very well reviewed when it came out and listed at $429 at the time.
OK time for the DD. Out came the D2 in in went the DD. Well now that was a horse of a different color!! Absolutely no trouble discerning a difference this time or noticing which cable is better. The DD lifted a significant veil off the sonic presentation, illuminating and giving texture to the Walter Becker's bass and giving the entire recording a more organic more musical sound. Steely Dan music is very well recorded but it can also sound a bit clinical and sterile, lacking warmth and emotion. The DD went a long way toward fixing that problem. My toes were tapping and I was smiling. I was grooving on great bass lines that were so well defined and a pleasure to focus on. No longer did I have to strain to hear them. They were right there. And the lyrics? Well let's just say that I became a lyric man instantaneously. (usually I focus almost exclusively on the music) The lyrics were coming to me instead of me having to fight to understand them if you know what I mean. Oh he misses the Audi TT. Of course! Why couldn't I make that out before? This cable was uncanny. It was able to make a clinical sounding record come off as more musical and warmer yet at the same time reduce the noise floor so that everything became much clearerand easier to discern, especially where my system had been lacking previously, the bass. It really took me only that one song (played repeatedly in A/B style) to know that I would not be sending the DD back to Dave. From my cold dead hands, Dave. This cable is the real deal. I know I am just one more affirmation of what so many others here have already said. Like everyone else on this thread I concur. The DD is special and represents a new reference in affordable cables. If you have been reading this entire thread and you haven't pounced on the DD yet what are you waiting for?
Dave, you have really whetted my appetite for your products. Let me know if I can get on any other tours would you?
-
Okay, the cables have been shipped to maxima95, have fun!
First off, I want to thank Dave for setting up the tour. Initially, I wasn't even sure if I wanted to participate since I was fairly satisfied with my current cabling, but the more I read about Dave's Cables, the more intrigued I became. I received XLR and RCA versions of the D3s and a set of 14 gauge speaker cables with jumpers.
I listen primarily to rock, followed by classical and a smattering of jazz. Overall, I prefer neutrality, since I would rather hear what's actually on the recording than have the music "smoothed over" by cabling or components. I used the following CDs for the cable evaluation: KT Tunstall - Invisible Empire, Mazzy Star - She Hangs Brightly, Joe Bonamasa - Live at the Vienna Opera House, Dandy Warhols - Welcome to the Monkey House, The Band - Live at the Academy of Music, Tedesci Trucks Band - Made up My Mind, Led Zep - Celebration Day, The Black Keys - Black Keys (LP), Bartok Concerto for Orchestra LP (Reiner). I also had my (very understanding) wife sit in a few times to to get her reaction. :D
I use Cabledyne Silver Reference XLRs from a Jena Labs modified Oppo 95 to a Wyred 4 Sound STP/SE preamp, followed by Grover ZX RCA cables from the preamp to a Job 225 (outstanding amp), which drives Devore Nines from Transparent Music Wave Plus speaker cables. I also use Lectraline RCAs from a Herron Audio VTPH 2 phono stage into the preamp. Turntable is a Eurolab Premier with Moerch UP 4 arm and Lye Argo i cart. I use several power cords, including Triode Wire Labs, Core Audio Technology and Cerious Technologies. And last but not least, everything is plugged into an UberBuss. (I was unable to use Dave's cables between the preamp and amp because I need 1.5 meters and the longest Dave's IC was one meter.)
On to the review. Track 9 of KT's Invisible Empire has her vocals standing out further than the instruments on Dave's, whereas the Cabledynes had the vocals more recessed compared to the instruments. Not sure which was the more "accurate", but we preferred Dave's cables on this track, however it was largely a wash on the other tracks. Moving on to Track 4 of Mazzy Star, the vocals are waaay back in the mix on Dave's cables, while the Cabledyne's have the vocals more forward. Score one for Cabledyne. Again, it was more or less a wash with the other tracks.
Initially, it was a struggle to discern the differences between Dave's and my cables, but over time a pattern emerged.While Dave's cables are very pleasing and easy to listen to, I (we) found that they seem to obscure some detail with a smoothing affect that could lead to a certain "sameness" to recordings. They have a tendency to remove the leading edge of transients and vocals, thereby taking away from the rawness and energy of rock recordings. This was most apparent on the Joe Bonamasa CD. His voice was quite nice using Dave's cables, but lacked the rawness using the CableDynes (BTW- my wife and I saw Joe B. live last December). I think the defining moment came when I fell asleep one afternoon while listening to the Led Zep Blu-Ray. That should not happen! After I switched back to the Cabledynes, it felt as if someone threw cold water on my face and I was suddenly back at the concert. Also, when I used Dave's from the Herron to the preamp and his speakers cables, the sound was way too soft for my tastes. My wife also found it easier to discern individual voices and instruments with my cable set up.
Dave's cables are very well made and very musical! They presented sound in a different way than my cables and initially I was quite enamored of the XLRs. However for my listening tastes and preferences I ultimately preferred my own cables. I could easily see some people preferring Dave's though, especially if they listen to primarily to jazz or classical using digital gear.
Postscript: Near the end of my listening, I purchased the "Essence of Music" CD treatment kit and wow, what an improvement it made! CDs sounded much more analogue like. It also made the cable differences more apparent.
Glenn
-
Thanks RPM123!
That was the worst review I've ever got on the D3s but so be it.
The cabledyne and grover ics are known to be some of the most forward and bright cables you can get and I "voice" mine to the neutral side... however all my cables are a custom built and I can fine tune my cables to be more or less forward if that's what someone wants.
My theory is to provide a cable that is as neutral and accurate as possible, not laid back, not forward, not bright or dark. But this isn't everyone's preference and that is ok. Also, if a system tends to lean one way then cabling that leans the other way may make for a better match than a more neutral/accurate cable.
Well at least nobody can say I'm somehow "fixing" the results! :green:
-
"Well at least nobody can say I'm somehow "fixing" the results!"
Very true, since I asked Dave if I should provide him my listening impressions prior to posting and he said no, post it on AC! To be clear, they are excellent cables and many should find that they match quite well in their system(s).
-
If it's not too late, I'd love to be in group 2.
Thanks!
-
Sure... you are under 50 posts but I remember reading your posts in the Omega forum so I'm pretty sure you won't disappear with them. :wink:
Also, cables in group 2 are moving on to WGH right now, and maxima95 should have group 1 cables or will be getting them very soon...
-
Dave - I just checked and the scheduled delivery date is Tuesday, 3/18, at the end of the day.
It was Monday 3/17, at the end of the day; it recently changed.
-
The cabledyne and grover ics are known to be some of the most forward and bright cables you can get and
Well at least nobody can say I'm somehow "fixing" the results! :green:
Just to balance things out- I was using Grover ZX+ in my two best systems and I happily replaced them all with DD and D3s. In my systems the Grovers were drier and thinner sounding, while Dave's had more body and density of tone, as well as a more dimensional presentation. Overall, it was not close- in my system.
Cabling matchups are very system specific, of course.
-
Also, cables in group 2 are moving on to WGH right now
Cables are scheduled to be in Tucson on Friday, if you are in the area and would like a listen this weekend send me a PM.
Wayne
-
Thanks for the updates WGH and maxima, unfortunately I am too far from Tucson, I am in Colorado.
The only other thing I'd mention from RPM123's review is the comment on the leading edge of notes, and that my cables rounded them off. It is possible for silver cables to accentuate the leading edges, and the grovers and the cabledynes do this to some extent, it is a sonic characteristic of silver plating and silver wire less than 5N purity. So, while there is no doubt RPM123's cables will produce a more defined leading edge to notes, it is more than is realistic and depending on the system and listener can lead to listening fatigue.
-
Thanks Dave, actually I meant to be more inclusive. If anyone else in Southern AZ and would like a listen this weekend send me a PM.
Wayne
-
I am using Signal Cable products all around. The Ultra speaker cables have Nom. Capacitance - 18.5 pF/ft
Nom. Conductor DC Resistance - 3.2 Ω/1000 ft. I am currently driving Super 3S with a McIntosh Receiver but
have a Trafomatic Aries in transit. I will use these cables as well.
Previous to Omega i drove Cain and Cain Abbys using Cardas SE15 with great results.
I like the neutrality of the signal cable and the price is hard to beat. It will be intersting to see how the Signal Cable Ultra Speaker cables work with the Trafomatic Aries.
I suggest keeping price and performance in balance and there are a lot of good cables out there that are truly affordable.
Blue Jean cables are very affordable and for those who use them they have good reviews.
Scott
-
Scott, we all know there are a lot of cables out there at different price points with different design philosophies and materials. What does this post have to do with Dave's cables?
-
WGH, thanks, I appreciate your generous offer!
scottd132, there ARE much more affordable alternatives to my cables but cheap isn't my goal. Best value for the money is. Value for different people is going to differ, depending on finances and the system. My cables are designed to be used with systems from relatively modest to top of the line. Honestly, I do not make cables for "mid-fi" kind of systems, it's not a good balance and honestly, without a good system these cables are probably too accurate and will simply make any issues with the system much more audible.
In any case, this is not the right thread if you wish to debate the value of cables just in general, this is a thread for people to try my cables and share their impressions with the community.
But, I do not mind sharing my "vision" for my cables and why I decided to offer them, that is in this thread and on my website. Simply put, I am offering a cable that costs far less than the competition because I keep my overhead low and sell direct to the consumer with little to no money spent on marketing. I have a day job, and do not need to pay for rent, employees, etc. I may get to the point I need to expand, but that may also never happen. I have no idea. :icon_lol:
The next cable out will be cost-no-object and should be among the worlds best IC cables and it will still be well under $1500. :thumb: This cable will have a custom made UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire that is better than what is available to the general public. More info to come.... :green:
-
Sorry guys your right i posted in the wrong thread. I had two threads open and meant to post it elsewhere. My comments were not meant for Dave's cables. I know nothing about them it was meant to respond to a fellow who was asking for ideas about affordable cables on another thread. I will post it there.
-
Update: Cables are changing hands right now to poseidonsvoice and guf, so we should hear from maxima and teetee in the near future with their experiences.
I am also going to send Chris Adams and jd3 a 1.2 meter long set of D3 XLRs, I am just waiting to get it back from another customer who is ordering an upgraded version... that way it'll be broken in for you guys too. I may make 2 upgraded versions and send them out to you guys too, they will be the D4 XLR I've mentioned...
The D4 XLR cables will have Furutech FP-601/2 (G/R) XLR plugs, one rhodium plated and one gold plated. I can use the super fancy CF connectors but only if you like rhodium on both ends and have another $200... :) The ground wires will be 6 x 26 gauge UPOCC silver w/teflon insulation. The signal wire will be a custom, OEM Neotech UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire that is my exclusive product and is an improvement over the D3's wire, which is available in bulk from Neotech retailer Partsconnexion, Take 5 and myself for $7.50/ft in North America. I have not decided whether or not to provide more info on the wire or offer it for sale in bulk yet... it is probably THE best wire for audio use in the world right now, nobody else has it, and I am hesitant to say exactly what it is. The single ended version of the cable will use WBT/Mundorf silver/gold alloy Nexgen RCA plugs with platinum plating.
The D4s are going to be a huge step up from pretty much any other cable on the market. The D3s are already one of the best cables you can get but the D4s are just going to surprise people. They will hide no faults in equipment or recordings. But they will also not compromise in tone, dynamics, body and harmonic structure. The D4 delivers as much detail as the best silver can, but has a more realistic tone, better dynamics and image density. The D3s have a very similar tone and overall sound to them, the D4s improve over the D3s in clarity and detail, and do away with the bit of added warmth from the upocc copper returns and gold plated RCAs. The D3s are a little bit warmer and more forgiving in return... in some systems this may be a good thing.
-
Hold on, balanced analog audio XLR interconnect cables don't have a ground wire. They have a shield. Under some conditions the shield is not connected at the receive end. Under other conditions the shield is connected at the receive end through a small capacitor. if it's a phantom powered microphone cable then the shield needs to be connected at both ends.
A balanced circuit interconnect does not use a audio ground. The most important thing about the cable is the symmetry of the two signal wires to the cable.
-
Speedskater, you (we) are not going to turn this thread into a debate about cable design.
First off, this thread is for the cable tour, which is on the title of the thread. Second, I'm not getting into this because explaining all of my design decisions regarding the XLR in particular would give away some things I don't want to state publicly.
Rest assured, I ask my customers what their application is for their cables to make sure they get something that will work for their situation. And the signal wires are symmetric in the cable's geometry. I am going to leave it at that.
I'm absolutely sure we are not going to agree on cable design, and I'm absolutely sure I'm not going to argue with you about it. If you want to argue about cable design please start a new thread somewhere else. I have read plenty of your posts and my feelings are that what you write is mostly based on reading books and not on actual experience. My cables are the result of about 20 years of actually experimenting with building cables and other audio gear as well as an engineering degree.
Unless you want to audition my cables, I am going to ask that you refrain from posting on my thread, thanks in advance. :thumb:
EDIT: I do want to say I appreciate your contributions and posts here on AC as well. :)
-
Dave,
Great stuff! Sending you an order for more of the 14 gauge wire now. There is no pricing for your balanced interconnects on your website. Can you tell us what the pricing is on the various balanced versions?....especially the DD, D3 and D4....and how much will the D4 unbalanced interconnect will be? Thanks.
-
Thanks Ric, I'm glad the 14g wire is working out, it makes the best speaker cable for anywhere near the price I have found. I have kept improving the IC cables but there's nowhere to go with the speaker cables, improving them would cost at least 5x as much as the current cables.
I do need to work on the website, I have been too busy with other stuff... I will try to catch up over the weekend and update the website with pricing on balanced cables. For now just shoot me a message...
A standard D4 XLR 1 meter pair would go for $1200 and the single ended version $975. Both as described in the post above and in about a week I will have some pics.
Price IS getting up there but the D4 line uses better parts than most top of the line cables that cost several times it's price, and I am the only one using the Neotech UPOCC silver/gold wire while everyone else is still selling UPOCC silver cables (or worse)... the silver/gold alloy costs 2 x as much as pure silver so the value for the money in the D4 is still exceptionally high. An end-of-the-line, cost-no-object IC cable for under $1k that will probably beat any cable you put it up against regardless of price... that is my humble goal for the D4 line. :green:
-
First I would like to thank Dave for adding me to the cable tour. I had the pleasure of auditioning the D3 interconnect (Neotech UPOCC Silver / Gold Alloy) and 14 gauge Neotech EC-UPOCC speaker cables in my system for a week.
My stereo is revealing but not analytical, leaning toward the warm side of neutral, I would call it musical. The speakers are the wonderful Salk HT2-TL with RAAL tweeters; electronics are the overachieving Van Alstine FET Valve pre-amp, FET Valve DAC, Synergy 450 amp and a CAPS server with Paul Pang USB card serving up flac. files. Vinyl is spun on a Harman Kardon T55C with power supply mod, a Goldring G1042 cartridge plugged into a Hagerman Cornet2 with Mundorf S/O, Sonicap, and Russian FT3 cap upgrades.
Cable are the classic Straight Wire LSI Encore II interconnects and Kimber 4VS.
I tried different combinations and found putting the D3 between the pre-amp and amp was the best location, the DAC, phono, and radio all sounder better.
My first and lasting impression was increased clarity, these cables do nothing wrong. They have a balanced sound, not favoring either extreme. Musical details are clearly presented in a natural way. High treble is clear and goes on forever without any stridency. The overall flavor of the interconnects is similar to the Straight Wire, when switching between cables the bass, mid-range and treble along with coherency was very close, the D3’s were just clearer.
The speaker cables may have been more detailed than the Kimber but in my system it was too close to call. Let me explain. I use a double run of the Kimber 4VS, replacing the Kimber with Dave’s 14 gauge resulted in a clear presentation but at the expense of some mid-bass and low bass attenuation.
Test #2: Try Dave’s on the RAAL with the Kimber 4VS on the bottom, jumpers removed. Results are about the same as the single run – OK but the magic is gone.
Test #3: Dave’s on top, Kimber 4VS on the bottom and with the Cardas tweeter-woofer jumpers installed – the magic is back. Unfortunately the cable mix does make it impossible to tell what Dave’s speaker wire add to the party, they certainly don’t hurt the sound.
Conclusion: The Salk HT2-TL speakers need more wire to live up to their potential. The Kimber 4VS has an aggregate wire size of 2-13 AWG conductors, a double run has an aggregate wire size of 2-10 AWG connectors. The two Seas Excel W18E001 speakers in each cabinet need all the oomph they can get, 10 or 11 AWG is the sweet spot.
Mixing and matching can work – or not. Dave’s and Kimber work well together, but try to cheap out and bi-wire with Dave’s and something like the Monoprice 12 AWG Oxygen-Free copper speaker wire will result in an incoherent woolly sounding system.
Salk and AVA have this wonderful synergy together that, in my experience, changing one item totally mucks up the sound. Dave’s Cables are the exception to the rule; they made my system sound better than it ever has. Congratulations to a job well done!
Highly Recommended :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Wayne
-
Great review Wayne, you can tell the guys who have a dialed system and have been doing this for a long time.... :thumb:
Your comments are spot-on, and should give folks a good idea of what to expect. The goal for the D3s is just to sound natural, real and neutral with as much clarity and detail as possible. Another requirement for everything I offer is to "do no harm" or not add any harshness that could cause long term listening fatigue. This can be a fun-killer as it's not immediately obvious to folks who haven't been in this hobby for a very long time, and causes you to want to listen to your system at lower volumes or not at all. I am very careful to offer cabling that will not do this. Of course, I can't fix harsh recordings! :green:
My speaker cables do have a variety of reactions and over time I have come to the conclusion that my speaker cables get the best results with speakers that have the least complicated crossovers. With single drivers or 1st order xovers and efficient speakers these cables usually get amazing reviews and many have said they are the best they have ever tried. My system is a single driver with no crossover whatsoever and these cables are a night and day difference vs something like the Kimbers Wayne has. But on his speakers there is a substantial xover network and the cables just don't make the same kind of difference, and low resistance seems to be a key attribute where it doesn't matter much with my system. So this is great feedback because it gives me a better idea of when to recommend going with the 11 gauge option instead of 14, and to gauge the kind of results that can be expected. It may be the case with some speakers that the litz-type construction of my cables just don't matter as much as others as well. In many trials my speaker cables result in greatly increased resolution in the mid to high frequencies but again, this effect seems to be reduced when used with more complicated crossovers. Thinking about it, this does make a lot of sense as the more complicated the crossover the more it will dominate the sound vs a speaker cable, and with a crossover-less speaker there is nothing else in between the amp and the driver besides the speaker cable, so it would have a much larger effect.
On the other hand interconnect cables serve the same function in wildly different systems so results with the D3 ic cable have been grouped MUCH closer together than results with the speaker cables. The upcoming D4 is similar in character to the D3, but offers increased resolution and clarity. It also does away with a bit of warmth and softness the gold plating and copper returns offered, so it is a bit "ruthless" but the increase in information coming through the cable is pretty amazing. It's also not thin sounding and does not accentuate leading edges like less pure silver cables and silver plating have a tendency to do.
I want to thank everyone again for the feedback, it is invaluable in making sure I am offering and recommending the right cabling to suit people's needs. :thumb:
-
Many thanks to Dave for allowing me to participate in the tour. I listened to the D3 IC's (XLR and RCA) and 14 ga speaker cables (12' w/ Furutech FT-211 (g) and 212 (g) connectors).
I tried various combinations of D3s and 14 ga speaker cables in the different systems below. The 14 ga speaker cables were used in a single run, and as one leg of a bi-wire configuration. I did not use the jumpers.
SYSTEM 1
(Transport) Sony DVP 9000 ES w/VSE Level 5+ Mods (DAC) Teac UD-501 (Preamp) BAT VK-3i
(Power Amp) Llano Trinity 200 (Hybrid) (Speakers) Gamut Phi 7
(Cables)(Speaker) Morrow Audio; Nanotech (Analog-RCA) Dave's Cables DD w/Duelund 2.0
(Analog-XLR) Homegrown Audio Silver Lace; MAC Palladium (Digital RCA) Darwin Silver Digital
(Power Cords) Triode Wire Labs; Lessloss DFPC; DIY Furutech Alpha 3; Wireworld Silver Electra 7
***********************************************
SYSTEM 2 - Same as System 1 except for speakers:
1975 Klipch LaScalas (Tweeters) B&C; Crites (Crossover) Alethia Audio Super AA
***********************************************
SYSTEM 3 – Same as System 2 except for power amp: Bottlehead Paramour 2A3 monoblocks
***********************************************
D3.
The XLR was from DAC to Preamp; RCA from preamp to amp.
The D3s did many things better than the cables I had on hand. There was a lot of information being projected; images were somewhat better defined and fuller; the acoustic space was easily identifiable; nicely dense stage; bass was slightly fuller. Extended - smooth with some warmth; unflappable - with a sense of control and ease. More of the above with both D3s; a bit less with just one. Given all the things the D3 does well, it is a “must hear.”
14 ga.
The speaker cables were used in a single run, and as one leg of a bi-wire configuration. There was a “liveness” to the sound, particularly in the upper registers, that added an extra dose of realism. Bass lines were clear and easily followed. The acoustic venue was easily discernable. Imaging and staging were first rate.
This is a very linear cable with lots of information in the upper registers. Bass was detailed rather than prominent. The 14 ga mated particularly well with the 2A3 amps and with horn speakers. It also worked well with a hybrid amp and neutral, revealing speakers (as part of a bi-wire run for the “high” section). While this was a successful match, poorly recorded or marginal discs did not get any repreive. Using them on the “low” section was good, but not preferable.
They are likely not a good match for an already lean or bright system. But in the right one, there is a reward to be had.
D3 XLR and RCA and 14 ga.(“high” section – bi-wire)
With all 3, the above characteristics of the D3 complemented those of the 14 ga. The complementary relationship and resulting synergy of the 3 together improved the presentation even more, and would mate with virtually all systems.
-
Lol, we must have been typing at the same time, thanks for posting David!
Another great review and I like that your comments about the speaker cables and where they worked best for you match with my previous post. I think this is good info for people to get an idea of how they will work in their system. :)
Not a lot of people hear the improvement in bass accuracy with the speaker cables so I am very happy you noticed that! I don't think these cables reduce the amount of bass coming through, they simply don't ADD anything. Regular copper cables add a lot of warmth, which obscures detail and makes the sound slow, wooly and bloated. The cheaper the copper the more the effect. As Wayne said in his reviews the Monoprice cables would be slow and wooly sounding. Speakers with more complicated crossovers probably have inductors with a lot of non-upocc copper in them which would reduce the effect of the litz/upocc construction of my cables. I think anyone with conventional speakers should consider a custom, high quality outboard crossover. I recently made a set for a friend of mine and the difference was unbelievable, they did not sound like the same speakers with the new xovers. The speakers were vintage AMT Heils, so there would be more of a difference vs modern speakers....
Also, that's good you got synergy using the D3s and SCs together. They have a similar kind of sound that really compliments each other.
-
I think anyone with conventional speakers should consider a custom, high quality outboard crossover. I recently made a set for a friend of mine and the difference was unbelievable, they did not sound like the same speakers with the new xovers.
I highly recommend you test/measure the new crossovers to make sure they are reacting the same exact way the orginals were. It's not uncommon at all that something is different rather than truly better. At bare minimum you need to measure them as complete assemblies which they should match and then subjectively judge how they sound. I've been down this road...
-
Good point, and I agree!
There was no guarantee the old ones even worked as-intended anymore, and I used a totally different xover design from a newer pair of AMTs so it's not a fair comparison really.
But with a speaker you are replicating the xover design with I think controls like you suggest would be mandatory! And of course the speaker may already use very good parts, but it's not liklely because a good xover can be very expensive... I do think that replacing electrolytic caps with film caps and cheap inductors for air-core ribbon inductors makes for a huge upgrade and is well worth it though.
-
Good point, and I agree!
There was no guarantee the old ones even worked as-intended anymore, and I used a totally different xover design from a newer pair of AMTs so it's not a fair comparison really.
But with a speaker you are replicating the xover design with I think controls like you suggest would be mandatory! And of course the speaker may already use very good parts, but it's not liklely because a good xover can be very expensive... I do think that replacing electrolytic caps with film caps and cheap inductors for air-core ribbon inductors makes for a huge upgrade and is well worth it though.
I'm just cautioning...a lot can be learned with a Smith & Larson Woofer Tester. (http://www.woofertester.com/) Using a totally different crossover design from a newer pair could also be an issue. I'm sure you did measurements after the swap to confrm the new crossover is correct and adjusted accordingly based on measurements.
-
One thought about the attenuated bass I heard with just one run of Dave's 14 AWG speaker cable: The Salk HT2-TL's are capable of reproducing strong tight bass down to 34 Hz (+/-3db), 38 Hz and above is no problem and is essentially flat. So if your speaker doesn't go that low you'll never hear what I heard.
A friend brought over some classical organ music CD's we tried out with Dave's cables, he has a REL Gibralter G2 sub; we never heard what he hears at his house. The Salk's just didn't have it in them.
Wayne
-
Here's pics of a pair of D4 XLRs using Furutech CF series connectors.
Group 1 cables are on the way to mikeeastman, poseidonsvoice will write up a review later, but has told me the D3 XLR beat his VH Audio Symmetry XLR cable at half the cost. :thumb: The D4 is a significant step up from the D3 but is less forgiving.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-D4XLRCF001_zps22aef2d7.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-D4XLRCF001_zps22aef2d7.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-D4XLRCF003_zpsd45fea42.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-D4XLRCF003_zpsd45fea42.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/3-D4XLRCF004_zps4c34f1ad.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/3-D4XLRCF004_zps4c34f1ad.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-D4XLRCF007_zpsc24c6f00.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-D4XLRCF007_zpsc24c6f00.jpg.html)
-
i'm enjoying group 2's set and happy to get them on the way to the next person. it's gonna be hard to do with out so I paypal'd you to get a set of the d3s. :)
-
Some pics of the new D4 Single Ended ICs, they are truly amazing cables... the D4 cables exceeded my expectations by quite a bit. :icon_twisted:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/3-D4RCA001_zps437f7a84.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/3-D4RCA001_zps437f7a84.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-D4RCA004_zps53a458f9.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-D4RCA004_zps53a458f9.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/1-D4RCA014_zps39350465.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/1-D4RCA014_zps39350465.jpg.html)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/2-D4RCA021_zps868d25ec.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/2-D4RCA021_zps868d25ec.jpg.html)
-
OK, Cables are being shipped to seikosha and Ozark Tom.
Hopefully we will hear some reviews from folks who have heard them soon (hint, hint :green:)
-
OK, Cables are being shipped to seikosha and Ozark Tom.
Hopefully we will hear some reviews from folks who have heard them soon (hint, hint :green:)
I'm not part of the cable tour and I haven't tried a lot of brands of cable but I thought I would share my thoughts on the D3 interconnect. I purchased a D3 IC to go between my DAC and preamp. It replaced a Level 3 anticable. I thought the anticable sounded a little bright and a little bit lean compared to the D3 cable. The D3 was more resolving and yet had a "more meat on the bones" sound. The communication with Dave was really great and I intend to buy a 2 meter D3 XLR to go between my preamp and mono blocks.
Don P.
-
The D3 was more resolving and yet had a "more meat on the bones" sound.
Don P.
That's how I hear it, too. Best of both worlds- clarity, definition and solid image weight- a rarity. I now use a balanced D3 pair on my main rig and unbalanced DDs on my office system, and I couldn't be more pleased with the sound I'm getting.
I was using Dave's 14 ga. speaker cables in my main rig until I moved things around and the 8 ft. pair no longer fit. Similar sound to D3s, and an even bigger bargain, IMO. I needn't add, but I will- as always, cable results are very system specific.
-
Ok, guys, I've been holding out on about six months worth of trial impressions from Dave's cables. It's time for a big brain-dump. Hold on tight.
Current setup: Mac Mini - Lampizator level 5 - TRL Dude preamp - Job 225 amp - Tekton Lore speakers (with dual distributed subs with active EQ to create a pretty even and fullrange in-room bass response) - full front wall of absorption, diffusion at first reflections
Alright, I gave my impressions way back last fall at hearing the DD and D2 interconnects. I can't remember if I also commented on the D3's in comparison. Upshot is that back then, I liked the DD's better than the D3's in my system. The DD's were full bodied, nearly as detailed as the D3's, and just had the right overall tonality. In comparison, D3's were more detailed and nuanced, but just sounded thinner and not as full bodied, and didn't have the "magic" that contributed to greater overall realism in my system.
Then came January and I upgraded DACs from the Tranquility SE to the Lampizator. I had a hunch it was worth hearing the D3's again, even though the DD's were sounding great. I got a couple trial pair of D3's about a month ago and played around with a bunch of different combinations. What I ended up with were D3's from DAC to preamp, and DD from preamp to amp. I got more spatial definition and soundstage by a large margin, but kept the richness of tone/body that I liked about the DD.
Then I finally splurged for the Audio Magic super fuse for the Job amp. Holy crap, that amp changed character quite a bit from being relatively lean (although wonderfully fast and articulate) to being very richly toneful. Suddenly, the full loom of D3's didn't shift the tone too lean or high for me, and the full loom of D3 had a very slight edge in detail without losing magic (although just very slightly).
Ok, now last week I got the trial pair of D4's. Put the in place of the D3's between DAC and preamp (I have always found this position to be more sensitive to cable changes than from preamp to amp). Holy shit!!!! :green: :P :wink: :icon_lol: :green: :lol:
And now I am 8)
I haven't had them out of the system since I put them in. I had intended to AB and play around with various combinations. Sorry guys, these things are absolute winners. I don't care that they cost a fortune. I can only characterize what I'm hearing as a significant qualitative change. What I mean by that is to distinguish it from a quantitative change. A quantitative change is more of this or that. More imaging, spatial cues, whatever. More high frequencies. Better bass or PRAT. Better, more, less, of whatever audiophile characteristic you want to mention.
In those senses, I don't find the D4 to be revolutionary, more evolutionary from the D3. There IS better instrument separation, to a degree, but just a good solid step forward. Pretty much the same tone. Dave had been suggesting it would be ruthless, and I was worried about it being brighter than the D3. I have notice no such thing in my system.
But there's something completely new that I am hearing - the "qualitative" change. I have never heard this kind of realism before in my system, and I really can't remember having heard it in any other system either. It's definitely still within the realm of what cable changes can provide, so keep that in mind. It's not going to fundamentally transform any system. However, there are "layers" gone between system and listener that truly change the listening experience itself. Like TOTALLY connecting with the musician/artist. There's a humanity to vocals that transcends the performance. Not just additional details, but details in the right context to have exceptional PRAT and so forth.
Ok, all that sounds totally jumbled and incoherent to me as I write it and as I try to conjure words for the emotional/aesthetic experience of the change. Suffice it to say that things amped up a LOT in terms of my emotional engagement with the music. This is much more than the previous differences between D2 to DD to D3. In an engineering sense, I'm sure it's easily explanable as a lower noise floor or something, but all I'm saying is that at this level of my system performance, taking this kind of an emotional leap of greater connection to the music was totally unexpected. I honestly thought I was further down the line of diminishing returns than that.
I have ordered two pairs. No hesitation. I sent the DD's back after the tour visit last fall. It took me several weeks to finally give in and order two pair of those. I'm not making that mistake again. The D4's are the real deal, and if you can afford them, and if your system is clean and high end enough, I can't recommend them enough.
But make sure your system is up to the task. I don't think these D4's would have been the right ticket at all with the Tranquility SE still in the chain. I think the DD's were just right for that DAC in my system with my speakers and their characteristics. So, the usual caveats apply, YMMV, etc...
Rock on, Dave!!!
-
Oh yeah, and I also went from a trial pair of Dave's 20 gauge speaker cables last January, which really improved on my former Clear Day silver cables by a significant margin in spatiality and naturalness. Then I bought a 14 gauge pair and sent back the trial 20 gauge pair. I'll be damned if the 14 gauge didn't have a smidge better separation/resolution and naturalness than the 20 gauge did in my system. Total winner there for the price as well :thumb:
-
Thanks, I appreciate the feedback everyone! :thumb:
I was surprised when I built the final version of the D4s, and really have to give credit to Neotech for making me, arguably, the best wire in the world right now. The D4s are not inexpensive cables but are still a good 3-5x less than comparable cables, if any actually exist.
I also have some thoughts on the D4 from a customer in Malaysia, his cables are the XLRs pictured above.
Hi Dave,
I have listened to D4 sometimes and extremely happy with its performance.
Pardon the cliché but it is really "day and night" difference compare to my existing cables like Wywire gold rca and lessloss rca.
I agree with what you said the sound is very accurate, but I wanna add it can give more details yet not sounding analytical or excessive airy.
Background is supper quiet and for the first time my McIntosh 275 tube amp can play so musical with good decays and quietness.
Also the phase and timing are spot on, and sound stage is rock solid and not wobbly, so it can handle all kinds of music very well.
Beside audiophile cd, I also listen to latest Justin Timberlake and Brianna albums which D4 is performing with flying colors.
Dire Straits' "Money for nothing" guitar opening is very mesmerizing and realistic, full of kick and not distorted.
I think the greatest asset of D4 is it can portray the nuances of music very well which makes you draw into them naturally and continue the whole album until it finishes.
So I think D4 still got a lot of potentials and it is other weakest links in my playback system needs further to improve. It gives me the feeling that I don't need to chase another 'superstar' cable anymore, this is the strongest endorsement that I felt.
-
Yeah, I want to ride on some of the guy from Malaysia's comments as well. I have also found that poor quality recordings sound as good as they could with the D4 in my system. It brings out the best of everything I've listened to thus far.
-
One more comment on the D4 interconnects and 14 gauge speaker cables:
"...I think you have every right to be enthusiastic about your D4's. They are still burning it, but I will say that they are definitely staying. I really don't have any urge to search more - these are it.
The D4s and the speaker cables - the best combination I have used. Will probably be selling off all my Kimber, Auditorium, Loyalty, and Clear Day cables. I'm thinking of replacing my other cables in my other smaller system with your more affordable ICs. It's definitely good stuff.
Keep up the great work."
-
I just wanted to provide one more update. Dave's quick, and I received the two pair of D4's I purchased from him in today's mail. I hooked them right up, and without any burn-in the second pair has removed another veil and has resolved a few remaining passages of songs that were still a bit muddled with too much going on, too much reverb, and so forth blurring the resolution of what was going on. In one of my favorite albums (Cat Power - Jukebox), the second song has always mystified me a bit. The vocals and snare drum always seemed to lack the resolution, imaging, and "snap" that they should, and that other tracks on the album do have. I always thought it was some kind of dynamic limiting or compression in the mixing/mastering process. When I just listened to it again, I found out that there's actually quite a bit of reverb going on with the vocals and snare on that track! I can hear the initial attack of the vocals/snare and the reverb/acoustic echoes of these notes/vocals now as clearly distinct and fully resolved. Great, great stuff!!!
Full, rich tone, with full resolution - total connection with the music!
My entire body had goosebumps and I had tears involuntarily flowing listening to San Jacinto on Peter Gabriel's New Blood album... That's certainly never happened before. :thumb:
-
That Peter Gabriel song should be really good at drawing emotion. Can't say I've had to hand someone a facial tissue yet Wink2.
I have a new goal.
-
It sounded damn-good when you introduced me to that song, but you might recall there being a bit of bite on my system when his voice really crescendos in the middle. Well, you can forget about that now. Just clean and clear and rich and dimensional.
Ok, so the tears might have also had something to do with my still being semi-delirious from a 67 mile bike ride in 4 hours this morning in fairly heavy wind, but I've been tired when listening before, and it usually just means I fall asleep... :lol:
-
You could have referenced allergies or excessive scotch/tequila :green:
I should soon know if the same result will transpire for me.
-
I want to thank Dave for the chance to audition his cables. Unfortunately the synergy wasn't quiet right with my system, which consist of a moded Mac Mini, exaSound ex20 dac, Ric Shultz moded Ncore 400 dual mono , Serenity Acoustic Super 7s and GR servo sub, Spatial XLR ICs and dyi HT cOz 8 stranded silver wire speaker cables, with Electra tube connectors and bare wire ends. My system has very nice tight bass, just a slight leanness in the mids and the very slightest edge on the hi end. The D3 XLR were close to my Spatail XLRs but they added a slight bit more edge to the hi end and the bass was a little bit boomy. The speaker cable added more edge to the hi end and made the bass boomy with a noticeable loss of transient attack.
Mike
-
Interesting update, Mike. Out of curiosity, what kind of amplification/preamp are you using with that system? Interesting to me, because in a way it validates my own initial experiences with the D3 and that led to me to go with the DD over it last fall. Some systems that might have a tendency to go bright or lean might not prefer the D3, it seems.
-
Thanks for the report Mike! There is no perfect component for every system and every listener, and I don't expect it. Both good and not-so-good feedback help a lot in determining where to recommend my cables. While I do have a 30 day trial period, it is better to get people the right cables for their systems in the first place... of course you have to try to be sure in the end though.
In any case, a system that "leans" one way or the other usually needs gear that compliments it. In your system it is likely the DD IC cable would be a great match and not the D3, which is much closer to neutral. In fact that is why the DD cable exists. The DD also is very resolving for a "laid-back" cable but cannot quite equal the ability of the D3 to resolve detail...
The only thing I don't understand is the speaker cables' reaction with the bass. This NEVER happens in speakers with simple or no crossovers, or speakers that have relatively high efficiency... the results are less predictable with more complicated speakers. USUALLY, the reaction is the exact opposite that you experienced... bass gets much tighter and more accurate with transients much better defined and tone is much more accurate as well... they usually get rid of all the warm, smooth, mushy sound regular copper cables tend to have. I am thinking that many speakers need quantity over quality, so a very low resistance, heavy gauge cable seems to work better. I'm not sure upocc copper or the litz design of my cables is any advantage with these kind of speakers.
-
genjamon,I corrected my post, added amp I forgot. I use dac as a pre.
Dave my speaker are efficient, I was also surprised by the bass as the speaker cable are only suppling signal to the hi and mids drivers. :scratch:
-
Dave my speaker are efficient, I was also surprised by the bass as the speaker cable are only suppling signal to the hi and mids drivers. :scratch:
Ah, the addition of the NCores... IME class D amps always throw a bit of uncertainty into the mix as they react very strongly and unpredictably to other gear in the system. One of my friends and customers has been dealing with a system with NCores and Abbeys, went through lots of different cables and gear with very odd results (this is an understatement!). I think NCores have the potential to work wonderfully and they are GREAT amplifiers, but getting synergy right with these amps can be very difficult and the results are not predictable at all. My friend ended up trying an old Pioneer receiver that blew away the NCores in his system. I think the issue was with the Abbey's crossover network and the fact that Geddes does not "believe in" boutique parts so the crossovers are comprised of less expensive parts including iron core inductors on the lows. The NCores react very strongly to this while the Pioneer receiver does not, and this is how David killed Goliath... :lol: Oh also, the source was an Auralic Vega > Bent TapX preamp, so source was pretty much "as good as it gets" for a system under 6 figures.
Personally, I had a tripath amp years ago and noticed the same kinds of issues. It reacted VERY strongly to cabling, way more than my SET amp, and to the point where cabling and other things that should be more "secondary" issues became of primary importance.
If you are getting good results with your NCores then that is excellent and as I said, they have a lot of potential in the right system. I have heard NCore amps sound AMAZING. But if you feel your system is lean and a little edgy in the highs, I can almost guarantee it's the NCores. I heard the Serenity 7s with the Dodd amps at RMAF and couldn't say I noticed anything along the lines you describe, but with the driver compliment in those speakers I am not surprised they can lean that way...
-
If you are getting good results with your NCores then that is excellent and as I said, they have a lot of potential in the right system. I have heard NCore amps sound AMAZING. But if you feel your system is lean and a little edgy in the highs, I can almost guarantee it's the NCores. I heard the Serenity 7s with the Dodd amps at RMAF and couldn't say I noticed anything along the lines you describe, but with the driver compliment in those speakers I am not surprised they can lean that way...
I heard NC400's back to back with Atsah's on my speakers, which I would say also have to be tamed a bit. In comparison to the Atsah's, the NC400's had some edge in the highs and grain in the mids I hadn't heard before hearing the Atsah's, but once heard, could not be unheard. Mine were stock, though, and I haven't heard Ric's mods. But this audition led me to go another direction with amplification entirely.
-
Ah, the addition of the NCores... IME class D amps always throw a bit of uncertainty into the mix as they react very strongly and unpredictably to other gear in the system. One of my friends and customers has been dealing with a system with NCores and Abbeys, went through lots of different cables and gear with very odd results (this is an understatement!). I think NCores have the potential to work wonderfully and they are GREAT amplifiers, but getting synergy right with these amps can be very difficult and the results are not predictable at all. My friend ended up trying an old Pioneer receiver that blew away the NCores in his system. I think the issue was with the Abbey's crossover network and the fact that Geddes does not "believe in" boutique parts so the crossovers are comprised of less expensive parts including iron core inductors on the lows. The NCores react very strongly to this while the Pioneer receiver does not, and this is how David killed Goliath... :lol: Oh also, the source was an Auralic Vega > Bent TapX preamp, so source was pretty much "as good as it gets" for a system under 6 figures.
Personally, I had a tripath amp years ago and noticed the same kinds of issues. It reacted VERY strongly to cabling, way more than my SET amp, and to the point where cabling and other things that should be more "secondary" issues became of primary importance.
If you are getting good results with your NCores then that is excellent and as I said, they have a lot of potential in the right system. I have heard NCore amps sound AMAZING. But if you feel your system is lean and a little edgy in the highs, I can almost guarantee it's the NCores. I heard the Serenity 7s with the Dodd amps at RMAF and couldn't say I noticed anything along the lines you describe, but with the driver compliment in those speakers I am not surprised they can lean that way...
I'm helping Mike in all these comparisons - discussing/agreeing with these conclusions. (I'm not quite sure what he means by leanness in the midrange. :scratch: Mike, we'll have to discuss this! ) I'm of the belief that the high end edginess is inherent in the Neo3 tweeter - having heard them in another S7 system (tube amps) and on my own monitors.
I do have that particular Pioneer receiver which we can hook it up to his system. I suspect it will not blow us away but one never knows...
In my semi-modest system, the IC's and speaker cable between my amp/pre-amp and monitors certainly made it sound better - highs, lows, depth and soundstage - compared to my $2 monoprice cables which sound fine - for the price. But I'm cheap, so I'll just have to live with it! :D
-
I'm helping Mike in all these comparisons - discussing/agreeing with these conclusions. (I'm not quite sure what he means by leanness in the midrange. :scratch: Mike, we'll have to discuss this! ) I'm of the belief that the high end edginess is inherent in the Neo3 tweeter - having heard them in another S7 system (tube amps) and on my own monitors.
I do have that particular Pioneer receiver which we can hook it up to his system. I suspect it will not blow us away but one never knows...
In my semi-modest system, the IC's and speaker cable between my amp/pre-amp and monitors certainly made it sound better - highs, lows, depth and soundstage - compared to my $2 monoprice cables which sound fine - for the price. But I'm cheap, so I'll just have to live with it! :D
You're probably right, I doubt the Serenity 7s will react the same way.
And at least monoprice doesn't sell you a name and a story for 100x the price... :icon_lol:
-
And at least monoprice doesn't sell you a name and a story for 100x the price... :icon_lol:
Because of my system but especially finances, I'm really not in a position to spend that much on cables. I listened to them for a couple of days and I certainly was sad to see them go, Dave.
-
Because of my system but especially finances, I'm really not in a position to spend that much on cables. I listened to them for a couple of days and I certainly was sad to see them go, Dave.
DIY! Being cheap is how I got into building cables and amps. :green:
Try switchcraft RCA plugs and the same wire/construction I use in my D1 cable, it will cost you under $25 and be a pretty good cable. The Neotech wire is $2/ft and the ground wire is $.18 at Apex Jr (I can sell you both for the same price too). For speaker cables you could get some of the same wire from Apex Jr and twist it into a star quad configuration using a drill. It's silver plated copper so just use bare wire with no connectors. I would use 10-16g wire depending on the speaker... For binding posts Pomona 3770 tellurium copper w/ gold plate are <$10 each and better than most. You should be able to cable your system with 2 sets of ICs and a set of SCs for under $100 and I bet it will sound really good!
I will say going through the signal path and upgrading wire, connectors and cable pays off HUGE... the laws of diminishing returns comes up fast in this hobby, so you can do it on a budget and still get impressive results using stuff like Switchcraft or off-brand connectors like Valab, military surplus wire, and of course looking for good deals.
And the satisfaction you get from building things is nice too. :thumb:
-
Cool, sounds great. I'll look into that.
-
Time for a review.....
I’ve spent a really enjoyable week listening to Dave’s speaker cables and his D3 interconnects. They were used primarily with a 4 watt Decware SEP amp playing CD’s running through a Schiit DAC with Omega Super 3xrs single driver speakers.
I think the strengths of my system are transparency, tone, microdynamics and imaging and the weaknesses are the obvious rolling off of the frequency extremes that single drivers produce and ultimate loudness/macrodynamics.
The cables that were substituted were Decware IC’s and Clearday Shotguns and my methodology consisted of quick A/B tests as well as sustained listening with the two different cables.
I first started with the speaker cables. The improvements I heard were pretty obvious and quick to discern. Right off the bat, I realized that Dave’s cables took an ever so slight hardness and glare out of vocals that the Cleardays were presenting. It’s something I’d not noticed before, but in Audio, it happens all the time, you often don’t realize a shortcoming until it’s addressed in a system change. The nice thing about this change was that even though Dave’s cables took out that edge, I didn’t lose any sense of air or open-ness. Sometimes that’s a tradeoff that has to be made and in this instance it wasn’t.
Maybe the biggest surprise for me with the speaker cables was the bass. I have to say, there were more than a few times where I smiled and thought…”I never knew my Omegas could deliver those low frequencies as nice as they are right now” Not too tight, and not too loose, but rather the bass was able to breathe in a new way. It was a shortcoming in my system before where I knew there were times when I thought the bass was just a little too tight or congested; it wasn’t rolling out into the room like I suspected it should and I knew there was room for improvement.
Another factor which really caught my ear was the way my system responded to micro changes in frequency. All of the sudden the variations in tone in a vibrato were more distinct or in a particular passage where a drummer was hitting a cymbal I could hear that every strike wasn’t identical and there were distinct variations in tone as the drumstick was consistently alternating it's stike on two different spots on the cymbal resulting in tiny differences in sound. It was startling to me to hear this and I did multiple A/B’s with my Cleardays to confirm that I really was hearing this new level of micro detail. My last example would be sounds way back in the soundstage. Sure I could hear them before, but now all of the sudden, there was some dimensionality to these notes where previously although they were just as noticeable, they were flat in image and presentation.
After I was comfortable with the sound of Dave’s speaker cables I then began switching out my Decware IC’s for Dave’s D3 interconnects. These changes were not so easy for me to describe. Unlike the speaker cables where I instantly heard improvements, I found it very difficult to quantify the changes between the IC's. Where the speaker cables took out a slight glare, the IC’s tended to just present the upper midrange in a warmer tone. With the Decware IC’s I felt like there was a little more airiness to the upper midrange whereas Dave’s IC’s had more of a softer glow. Neither was preferable, both were nice.
That said, for some reason, I always felt like I was on some level enjoying Dave’s cables more than my own IC’s. For about 12 hours of hardcore IC listening over many days, I tried to convince myself that I was imagining this, but I couldn’t. Time after time, I’d hear something and think…”oh, Dave’s cable is nailing this passage” and I’d substitute the Decware’s back in but I couldn’t confirm what it was that made Dave's cables make me stop and compare . However, during the eval period I never had the Decware’s in the system and felt like stopping and comparing like I so often was with Dave's D3s in the chain.
I actually PM’d Dave about it and my theory was that his cables might have essentially been doing everything just a little bit better making it (except for the upper midrange presentation discussed previously) difficult to pinpoint to one thing and nail down specific differences. I wish I could describe in detail why I responded so positively to the IC’s and although in the end I couldn’t quantify it, I really felt there was something intangible going on that I was reacting to and just didn’t have the time to really nail it down. Believe me, I didn’t want to like those IC’s. The last thing any of us wants is to hear something sound better and influence us to spend more money! My last thought is perhaps it was harder to discern the differences in IC's simply because the Decware's had a competitive advantage being designed by the maker of the amp specifically for his products.
So I just wanted to say thanks to Dave, as I said, I enjoyed the demo quite a bit and will be contacting him about placing an order.
-
Thanks for posting your review!
The ICs may be allowing a little more detail to come through, not enough to jump out at you, but enough so it feels more realistic. That's my best guess. :green: I'm glad they worked for you, we have almost the same system, I use a DIY EL34 SET and a 10" sealed sub, but we have the same speakers and DAC. The Schiit DACs are good but I would love to pick up the Sony HAP1 and put in my own mu-follower tube output stage... :icon_twisted:
-
Dave,
If you are looking for a better dac consider the Bottlehead dac designed by the great John Swenson. Ask your question on this dac on Computer Audiophile where John Swenson is and on Bottlehead forum. Like your cables the Bottlehead Dac tries to be. A long development time the dac is finished. $1,550 for the kit via Kickstarter. Bottlehead fans are excited.
-
Thanks xsb, I just heard about the Bottlehead DAC from a customer and it sounds promising! I will definitely look into it.
Meanwhile, I have been experimenting with things a bit... :icon_twisted:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Power%20Cables/1-PowerCords039_zps230654a8.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Power%20Cables/1-PowerCords039_zps230654a8.jpg.html)
-
How long do we get to enjoy these before we have to ship them to the next audiophile?
-
Hi Tom, 1-2 weeks is fine but no hard dates... If you are done with them send me a PM and we can arrange to get them to the next person.
-
Dave,
Looking forward to your experiments with power cords. Keep up the good work.
-
Thanks xsb. Trials are going better than expected... this wire works very well for power cords! I am also getting in some of the new Neotech plugs with improved body/housings. The old ones on sale now sound good but the quality of the body is not good enough... hopefully that will be fixed in the new generation as the price/performance ratio is very good.
-
Hi Dave,
Am curious, would your power cords be limited to low current applications only? Also, have you considered doing a digital cable yet? It seems like the potential is there for excellent digital as well
Nick
-
Hi Nick, I made the power cables in 14 and 11 gauge, the 11 should be good for amps. Works great on mine, but it's a small SET amp... they are being tested. :)
I have had a couple people try the D4s as digital cables, both RCA and XLR versions, and the report back was they sounded better than anything else including some very high end cables. Digital spdif cables transmit an analog waveform to represent digital information so an accurate cable for analog can work well as a digital cable. I need to measure/tweak the cables to meet accepted parameters for digital cables before I would put it out there though, the D4 RCA cable's connectors are 75 ohm already but the cable's characteristic impedance needs to be 75 ohms too...
-
Here's an impression of my 20 gauge speaker cables used with Omega single driver speakers:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124577.msg1333200#msg1333200
Hi all
First a thank you to Dave for providing me with a set of his 20gauge speaker cables. It has been a true pleasure doing business with you. Dave wrote to me that these would need around 200 hours of use before I can fully hear how they sound. Of course since I got them Friday, i am no way near getting so many hours on them, but Dave also wrote that after 15-20 hours I will get a good impression about how they sound. BTW, the box you shipped them in was properly secure.
Going from sort of heavy duty TaraLabs helix prism 6 to these cables it is a kind of unfair comparison, but never the less a comparison that show how important cables are. An other thing is that the wife left really early on a trip to London to give a lecture there so I was able to optimize speaker and component placement, which also makes a difference in sound. I have been playing a hell of a lot of music during the weekend.
Anyway, these light weight, easy to deal with cables makes a really big difference in my system, more than I thought was possible. Listening to Roger Waters Amused to death every little detail is clearly present, so many things happening in the background on that album. Switching to another favorite, Morphine with Yes and there is big difference in the lower bass end, actually killed my growing need to purchase a subwoofer, at least for a little while. Soundstage is improved and instruments sounds more natural. It seems as the amp and speakers have the right tools to the job they are hired to do, if you know what I mean.
Thanks again Dave for all help with the cotton "stockings" which I found to be both a nice way to have cables visible, and as an extra protection, and for being a nice guy with my special needs. I guess I will email you over the summer and order a pair of ICs..
-
I want to thank Dave for the opportunity to be on his cable tour and his patience. I took a little too long.
My system consists of the Job 225 amp, IFI Itube used a pre, Zellaton Emotion speakers, and Sony HapZ1ES for the music server. About a couple of months ago,my system really gelled the best I ever have had it. Big soundstage, holographici maging, and very natural and lots of emotion. I thought never ever change it again.
Then I get a PM from Dave about his cable tour. :scratch: Gee,I forgot I had signed up. Since I am most interested in IC's and not speaker cables I hooked the D3's up. The first night I got thin soind, so I figured to just let them burn in overnight.
Second night was thin sounding so now I knew I was in trouble. If the IC's was thin, I only imagined the speaker cables was just more of the same. On the third night I decided to change the D3's around and reverse the flow. Ahh, the thinness disappeared. I was getting razor sharp detail, razor sharp focus, razor sharp imaging.
to be continued..........
-
Interesting, Tom. What are you comparing them to?
-
One thing I have never liked is too many sharp razors coming at me, I lose the emotion and the magic of the sound when it happens. The sound crosses into tha dark side, or maybe I should say the opposite of the dark side. I put my cable back in and the magic came back. My cable that I was using between the Sony and the Itube was a pair of the Rethm silver IC's that sell for $1400.
Work had me tied up quite a bit, but I finally had time to hook D3's and the speaker cables in. My speaker cables are also silver, costing $800. :o Whoa, what happened? All the magic plus detail and focus came to life. The naturalness of my system was better than ever, yet I was hearing more information. Some of my hard soundingCD's now sounded smother than ever. Hall ambiance was greater, soundstage was bigger, vocals more alive.
One CD I listen to quite a bit is Daft Punk's Random Access Memories. I was listening to the Game of Love and I noticed a quivering in the electronic vocal I had never heard before. Wow! Pharell Williams can sound a little irritating on his high pitched vocals, but no more. Adele sounded smoother than ever. My French radio station ABC Lounge Radio, sounded bigger and more organic than ever. :thumb:
I thoroughly enjoyed this set-up, I had thought my system could not sound any better. Just to make sure the speaker wires made that big a difference, I first took Dave's speaker cables out and sure enough, the magic had disappeared. I then replaced the D3's and the magic appeared again but the detail was knocked down at the same time. I played Daft Punks The Game of Love, and the quivering electronic vocals all but disappeared. Synergy between Dave's cables for me is perfect. If you have a high resolotion audio system, you need to try these out.
Now here I sit looking at my excess audio gear, trying to figure out what to sell first. I can see the only way for me to go is to buy the D3's and the speaker cables at the same time. I want some.
-
Hi Tom, thanks so much for the write-up... :)
Despite the arrows the cables are not directional, they are just there so you can keep track of what position you put them in. Others have noticed a difference in cable orientation but in my system it is a small difference. While there may be differences in sonics due to the way the wire is manufactured, upocc wire is not manufactured like a regular wire and does not sound much different one way vs the other when new, but the direction of burn-in can make a difference as well. In any case, run the cables which every way sounds best to you. :thumb:
I also think my cables have a lot of synergy together which is why I did the tour with both cables at the same time... and the Zellatons are an ideal match for my speaker cables. I can build better cables but they would cost 3-4x the price of the copper litz cables. One other speaker cable that might work great for your system is a pair of 4-strand braids using the 20 gauge litz wire... it throws a wider sound stage but isn't quite as focused as the side-by-side geometry... depends on preferences and synergy mainly. I wasn't considering braiding the SCs but I made the power cords with braided geometry (see pic above) and that encouraged some experimentation. :icon_twisted:
What kills me is how good the speaker cables can be with the right speakers, but they do not work with speakers using crossovers more complicated than 1st order! :evil: I am currently testing cables that do not have unfortunate reactions with passive crossovers for those that own such speakers... :green:
As far as the D3s vs the Rethms, it is possible my D4s (at $975) would be a better comparison... they would also have the same synergy with the speaker cables, but offer quite a bit more resolution and are closer to neutral.
-
Is tailspinrex still up next?
-
Hi Tom, yes he is... :thumb:
-
Dave's Cables 11 ga. Power Cord, w/ Neotech Gold/UPOCC connectors (older version)
Dave was kind enough to let me listen to his 11 ga PC described above.
SYSTEM
(Transport) April Music Stello CDT 100 (DAC) Teac UD-501 (Preamp) BAT VK-3i
(Power Amp) Llano Trinity 200 (Hybrid) (Speakers) Gamut Phi 7
(Cables)(Speaker) Morrow Audio; (Analog-RCA) Dave's Cables DD w/Duelund 2.0
(Analog-XLR) Shunyata Aries (Digital RCA) Darwin Silver Digital
(Power Cords) Triode Wire Labs 7+; Lessloss DFPC Original;
Lessloss DFPC Originals were used on all components. The Triode Wire Labs 7+ was used on the power conditioner. In lieu of the Lessloss, Dave's 11ga PC was used on the DAC (I haven't tried it anywhere else yet).
Dave's PC sounds similar to his speaker cables. There was a “liveness” to the sound throughout the spectrum, particularly the upper registers, that added an extra dose of realism. Bass was nicely prominent and lines were clear and easily followed. The acoustic venue was easily discernable. Images seemed a bit taller and staging a little wider and deeper. Great speed, dynamics and transparency. And it was smooth to boot. When I swapped other PCs back in, I felt I was missing something. I don't like missing anything; so I purchased this 11 ga PC.
-
Hi maxima, thanks for the review!
The testing of the power cable is going well and I'd like to get a tour started... In about 2 weeks I will have a couple cables built, burnt in and ready to demo! I am very excited about these power cables as the character of the upocc copper litz wire comes through clearly, and while not inexpensive, it is some of the best copper wire I have ever used. I tried a lot of different copper wire to get a feel for how their characteristics come through when used for power cables, and I think this wire works better than anything else.
-
Hello Dave -- how are these Neotech IEC connectors and plugs on the power cords? Did you compare them against the Furutechs and Oyaides out there?
-
TBH, I haven't done extensive testing like I have on some parts yet, but I think the Neotechs are a very good value for a plug using upocc copper. The new bodies are a huge step up from their older model. Some of the more expensive models from other brands have nicer bodies, which can affect the sonics too, but they are much more money. I can order pretty much any connector you would want to customize the cable as well.
Also, these cables will come with gold plated AC plugs and rhodium plated IEC plugs as the plating makes a pretty big difference.
-
Dave, thanks for allowing me to take part in your cable tour. Here is my review of the D3 ICs and 14-gauge SCs. First, a little background. My system includes: speakers - Salk HT2-TLs, preamp - Modwright LS100, amp - Bryston 4BSST2, source - Cambridge Audio 840C CD player, current ICs - Kimber KS1116 and 1121, current SCs - Kimber 12TC. My wife is a classical pianist and, not surprisingly, we listen primarily to classical music. So the CDs we used most for the audition were: (1) piano - Chopin Nocturne Op. 48, No.2, with pianist Fan Ya Lin (an IsoMike recording entitled Emerging - spectacular sound quality and an excellent performance BTW); (2) choral - Ockeghem's Deo Gratias from Utopia Triumphans by the Huelgas Ensemble (Sony); and (3) symphonic - Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Yoel Levi and the Atlanta Symphony (Telarc). The comments below reflect those of both me and my wife - we tend to have the same preferences, but she can explain what she's hearing in different (and more musically astute) terms than I do.
First, let me say that Dave's cables are a pleasure to work with - extremely well made, very flexible, and with high quality connectors. His cables were very listenable, with a bit softer/more relaxed sound than my Kimbers. The tradeoff, to our ears (more pronounced in the SCs than in the ICs), was that Dave's cables sounded somewhat less open/live/present than the Kimbers and with less detail (YMMV - we might be viewed as detail freaks and what sounds more present to us may sound too forward to you). For example, in the Chopin Nocturne the D3s had a lovely delicate sound, but captured fewer of the piano overtones and less dynamic color (my wife said the Kimbers allowed the piano to "speak" better and better transmitted the "core" of the sound). In the Ockeghem choral piece, the Kimbers seemed to allow more space around the voices, making each individual voice more distinct, and to better capture slight rhythmic changes and a greater dynamic range. The Stravinsky piece was a somewhat closer call, however, partly reflecting the strong (but not at all boomy or muddy) bass heard with Dave's cables. And we would describe the differences we heard as subtle, rather than dramatic.
While cost is not always a good indicator of sound quality, the fact that Dave's cables sounded as good as they did for about 35% to 65% of the cost of the Kimbers is a real testament to what Dave has achieved. Indeed, from memory I feel confidant we preferred them to several other well-known (and higher-priced) ICs we have auditioned in our system in the past, including Audience, Analysis Plus, and Wireworld. In fact, it made me very curious as to how his 11-gauge SCs and new D4 ICs would have compared in my system. Especially if you find your system too bright or prefer a slightly more relaxed or laid back sound, I definitely would encourage you to try Dave's cables.
Thanks, Dave.
-
Thanks for the review sounddog! I appreciate you trying them and posting your thoughts.
I try to make the D3 pretty well balanced, so it is not unusual that some might find them a little too aggressive and others find them a little too soft/relaxed. More evidence that one size does not fit all and synergy and personal preference are the most important factors when building a system.
------------------------------------------------------
The D4 and it's companion speaker cables, which will be released with my new website, will be more appropriate for those looking for the highest levels of performance without as much regard to keeping them affordable. The D3 and copper litz speaker cables are designed to offer the best value possible in a reasonably priced package while the D4 + silver/gold speaker cables will be a lot more expensive and are designed to be the best value in the "price no object" category. And they are still priced around 3-5x lower than cables offered by most other companies. In the near future I will offer a tour of the D4 + OCC silver/gold speaker cable, I believe these cables will offer the best performance available in cabling today.
-------------------------------------------------------
In other news I have sent two power cables to AC member happyrabbit for testing, a 14g and 11g cable about 6' long, using the newest Neotech upocc copper connectors, one with gold plating and one with rhodium plating. The wire is my OEM 14g upocc copper litz, with ~1060 strands of individually insulated wire.
Please see this thread if you are interested in checking out the power cables:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127233.msg1342427#msg1342427
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/Cables%208-14-13/4-Power_zps9d571682.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/Cables%208-14-13/4-Power_zps9d571682.jpg.html)
-
Dave hi,
I've read all threads here and I think I haven't come across mentioning that Neotech wires are deep cryo treated, are they? What's your oppinion on cryo treated or not?
-
Hi skydog, and welcome to AC! :thumb:
Almost all of the connectors I use are cryo'ed by Furutech or Neotech. The wire I use is almost exclusively UPOCC copper, silver or silver/gold alloy and these conductors atomic structure is formed in an ideal way during manufacture. However, I have not cryo'ed complete cable assemblies as of yet so I can't say for certain exactly what effect it would have. So much to do, so little time... :green:
Thanks for your post and feel free to ask any other questions you might have.