Tube amps

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drunkonjack

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Tube amps
« on: 28 Jan 2004, 04:43 pm »
What does the term push pull mean ? Can you push and pull them around real easy ? They must be real heavy. I have some freinds that will help move them.

infiniti driver

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Tube amps
« Reply #1 on: 29 Jan 2004, 04:37 am »
Do you really want to know?

The topography of the operation scheme is what push=pull is referring to. When you feed an amplifier a signal, a complete wave is comprised of a positive half and a negative half. A push-pull amplifier uses one tube to amplify the positive half and another tube to amplify the negative half of the wave. One tube "pushes" the cone of your loudspeaker "forward" and the other tube "pulls" the cone backward. Actually, to get technical, the "push" tube pushes the cone from zero point outward and back to zero point, and the "pull" tube pulls the cone backward from the zero point and back to the zero point. A stereo (2 channel left/right) amplifier that is "push-pull" will employ no less than 4 output tubes normally. Tubes operate as "valves" so the action is pretty fluid for the most part.

Does this shed some light on it for you?

Of course, it gets more involved than that but that is the BASIC principal.

drunkonjack

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Tube amps
« Reply #2 on: 30 Jan 2004, 01:08 am »
Would this be a basic operation or lower end stuff ? Or do all tube amps work this way ? I'm asuming more tubes ar better ? Thanks for answering. Just thought I'd try too get a laugh. did'nt know we had too be so serious here.

Carlman

Tube amps
« Reply #3 on: 30 Jan 2004, 01:14 am »
I'm not an overly serious type but, I think that's about the best explanation I've ever heard.  THANKS!!!  I learned something AGAIN on AC.

My experience is that you have to pull the tubes out, pull your wallet out then push the tubes in, then push your empty wallet back into your pocket.  I'll keep SS for my amp... tubes are ok everywhere else for me, though.

-C

JoshK

Tube amps
« Reply #4 on: 30 Jan 2004, 01:42 am »
actually from a purist standpoint less tubes equals better.  Push pull equals more watts but SET (single ended topology, sometimes confused with single ended triode) equals more pure but less watts.

drunkonjack

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Tube amps
« Reply #5 on: 30 Jan 2004, 02:41 am »
I think I need to do some homework on this. I think I'd drive you giys crazy with my questions. This tube stuff is all new too me. I did'nt even think it was made anymore. Is their a magazine dedicated to tube hi fi ?

infiniti driver

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Tube amps
« Reply #6 on: 30 Jan 2004, 03:53 am »
Single ended triods using one tube for both the positive and the negative have less of the "relay" or "passing off" problems since the one tube is doing the entire wave. To do this, it take a lot more "kahunas" per tube since their is not a 50% rest cycle and it is quite correct that in class A mode (non passing off, or non switching) that power and heat eff. are not near as good. Sound quality...the finest amplifers I have ever heard was the KR antares and the 1610 Kronzillas  www.kraudio.com  The antares runs in pure class A and the kronzilla can run in A or push pull if you have the money to buy them. Actually having 1/4th of the wave per tube has been done. Big power and computer processor controlled bias is in the works.

Transistor amplifiers work on the same proincipal with PNP and NPN transistors as the afore mentioned. They can be class A, one transistor producing the entire wave, or A/B push pull which is the PNP (positive negative positve) and the NPN (negative positive negative).

Something has to move that cone...and digital amplifiers still must go back to analog to drive a loudspeaker. If you ever hear a digital signal, it is nothing but rasp. Music and ears will always be analog.

TG

Tube amps
« Reply #7 on: 2 Feb 2004, 01:35 pm »
Quote from: drunkonjack
I think I need to do some homework on this. I think I'd drive you giys crazy with my questions. This tube stuff is all new too me. I did'nt even think it was made anymore. Is their a magazine dedicated to tube hi fi ?

No dedicated hardcopy magazine anymore.  Sound Practices is defunct, and Glass Audio was amalgamated into Audio Xpress magazine a few years ago and the valve content was diluted.  :evil:

Bottlehead Corp produce a more or less irregular online magazine called Valve http://www.valvediy.com/ but it's not really a beginner's mag.  Getting into valve audio can be difficult.  There used to be a good introductory guide (I think it was called "A Taste of Tubes") which could be downloaded but I can't find a link to it.  TubeCAD http://www.tubecad.com/ is an excellent online magazine but again, not for beginners.

There are two usual entry points to valve audio - you either pay big money for commercial gear or you get involved in DIY valve audio, which can become a serious addiction
:beer:

A lot of myths surround valve audio, and beginners often make the mistake of deciding from rumour and heresay what direction they will prefer without ever having even heard a valve amp.  Bottom line is that the topology is really not that important.  Just don't try to use amps which are spectacularly inappropriate for your particular speaker's nominal impedence and power requirements.

SET amps (the simple triode stuff) are popularly believed to sound "full", and push-pull amps "harder".  Phooey.  I've heard excellent amps of all kinds whose topology was not at all apparent from the sound.  The most detailed and dynamic valve amp I've ever heard was a 300B SET (popularly supposed to be very "warm"), and the muddiest valve amp I've ever heard was a push-pull type.

If you have the patience, lurk at the Audio Asylum Tube DIY and Tubes forums http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html and try to pick up some info.  Even better is the Bottlehead forum http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/bottlehead/bbs.html, and best of all is to locate some valve audio guys in your area, listen to some gear and ask lots of questions.

Cheers

By the way - I'm a diehard valve DIYer (I case you hadn't guessed) but I like good solid state amps just as much.  Neither is superior - they just sound different, and sometimes one is more appropriate for a particular pair of speakers than the other.  Don't get caught up in the "tube vs. solid-state" bickering - it's a lot of bulls**t.

Steve

Re: Tube amps
« Reply #8 on: 9 Mar 2004, 11:47 pm »
Quote from: drunkonjack
What does the term push pull mean ? Can you push and pull them around real easy ? They must be real heavy. I have some freinds that will help move them.



Hi,
     Push-Pull is a condition of two output tubes working in conjunction with each other. I will give a few of the pros and cons of PP and single ended operation.

1) Class B operation. This condition means each tube is essentially turned off during approx 1/2 of an audio cycle. In conjuntion with the OPT (output transformer wound in  a certain way), one tube produces 1/2 the waveform and the other tube produces the other half. I guess one could say one tube produces the positive half and the other output tube produces the bottom half of the waveform.

2) Class AB1. In this state, each tube produces more than 1/2 half of the waveform but less than all the waveform. In otherwards, the tube is shut off for a portion of the cycle but not cutoff an entire half of the cycle.

3) Class A. In this condition, each tube produces all the waveform. In otherwards, the tubes never turn off. Each tube produces the "entire" signal, all the time. Kinda like two single ended amps with a means to supply both "sides" with a signal 180 degrees out of phase to each other and using the same output transformer.

I won't get into A2 and AB2 operation as they involve grid current.

The advantage of pushpull is the cancellation of even order harmonic distortions (about 40db or so), and more power output.  Frequency response, at both extremes, is generally better than single ended.

The weakness is more parts are involved and more care needs to be taken for emotional involvement.

PP (pushpull) operation can sound as good, or better, than singleended because of the better extremes and as good of midrange, but one must design very carefully.

A few cons and pros of single ended operation.

1) OPT core saturation because of DC current flow through the windings. This causes a loss in bass response and higher distortion, esp in the bass region.
 Parafeed operation means more parts plus the problem of OPT inductance change with amplitude of the signal, and possibly an additional coupling cap to keep DC current from reaching the OPT. (The lower the signal amplitude, the lower the frequency response with parafeed.)

However, a smaller OPT is needed with parafeed vs the typical tube to OPT connection single ended amp since no DC current is flowing.

Fewer parts are generally needed to build a single ended amp, so it is easier to make one that sounds good. PP is much more difficult.

Almost forgot, the output impedance of the PP amp can be more constant, in class A operation, than the single ended tube design. This relates to a more constant damping factor, better control over the speaker drivers as the waveform is reproduced.

Hope this helps.

Rob Babcock

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Tube amps
« Reply #9 on: 10 Mar 2004, 01:31 am »
Yes, drunkonjack, tubes are still made, but all serious listeners gave them up years ago. :| ----------------------- :P  :lol: Just joking!

Very good explanations here, everyone.  And you needn't worry about bugging anyone with a million questions- that's the whole purpose of the starting block, to keep you from bugging people elsewhere! :lol:   Seriously, there is no question too basic to be asked in this Cirlce- it's here as a resource to help with the basic stuff.

-R-

Mark_Walsh

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« Reply #10 on: 8 Apr 2004, 05:11 am »
Drunkon,

I thought this tuby, SET stuff was way out of my league until I came across the AKSA gear.  This looks highly affordable and I am "going to" get some soon.

Regards,
MW

URL: www.aksaonline.com

davejcb

Tube amps
« Reply #11 on: 12 Apr 2004, 03:52 am »
Quote
There used to be a good introductory guide (I think it was called "A Taste of Tubes") which could be downloade ...


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