AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: undertowogt1 on 17 Jun 2017, 08:37 pm
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I could not find a picture of the Spatial M3 Turbo S Crossover network anywhere...................... so I took my own. There was not much slack on the wire but I took the best pics could. I am thinking about "upgrading the wiring to each speaker on the M3 Turbo S.
Also do anyone think there would be a benefit to build the crossover into a box off the speaker itself, I have heard vibration can cause havoc but it could be just a myth?
Any thoughts on wire upgrade or moving the crossover off the speaker are appreciated.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164075)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164077)
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Another option is to upgrade your M3 Turbo S to a M3 Triode Master. I did and I couldn't be happier. More detail and deeper sound stage were apparent right away. I also noticed a little later that the bass had a small improvement. That is probably due to either the better crossover or that the bass responsibilities were lowered by 100Hz.
If you do any DIY mods your warranty is invalidated. Having Spatial do it leaves you with a new 20 year warranty.
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Ahh the warranty, good point. I purchased from a Canadian Distribute so my warranty is 10 years not 20, I know its Lame
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This is a very average looking crossover for such an extreme fanboy speaker. I don't see any high end coils or caps here and they are arranged in a haphazard fashion.
I would just biamp around 800 Hz, 24dB/octave. I have heard this on the M4 and the results were superior in terms of transparency.
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Bumping this old thread for a good reason :
I've been powering my M3TS with a Schiit Vidar (+Saga and Bifrost MB) for a year and it's been a bliss!
But now I received an Aegir (Schiit also, 2x40W class A (with ContinuityTM) and the presentation is sensibly different : the top end is much better but the bass is lacking a bit compared with Vidar.
So I'm thinking about biamping.
(I know about losing warranty, and I don't really care.)
Now, I'm not that proficient with crossover calculation or even implementation and I'd be greatly appreciative for answers, links to documentation... (rather than opinions... :wink:) regarding :
- Is it a solution to just separate the LPF from the HPF and run the two decoupled ways, each from an amp, or is the load seen by each important in the end results? (does the LPF + 2 woofers impedance have a significant impact on the transfer function of the HPF+compression driver? :scratch:)
- If there is a significant impact, how does one go to adapt a partial HPF in order to restore its original transfer function? (without replicating the missing half with a constant load, as it would degrade results I guess (unneeded high current spikes))
If this quest is completely devoid of relevance, don't hesitate to tell (explain?) me so! :D
Thanks!
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I own the M3 Turbo S' and I did upgrade the 6.8uf and the 68uf capacitors using Jupiter capacitors and yes it was expensive, but wow, the sound quality is so much improved.
I can solder a bit, but am no expert either in soldering or knowing anything about electronics/crossovers, so a LOT of trepidation. BUT, now that it's done I can honestly say that from my perspective, crossovers should be considered as components and using more expensive quality parts makes a HUGE difference in defining what your speakers are capable of.
I plan to upgrade the wire, but first I need to wait a month or two to let these caps settle in.
Yes, the warranties are voided, but parts are always available and I am planning to keep mine for a long long time.
My recommendation would be to upgrade the caps with whatever you can afford--remember that the crossover is the last thing your speakers are filtered through, and the Dayton Audio parts are small and fit in the small cavity to make it more attractive, but you don't really know what your speakers can do until you upgrade with higher quality parts.
As far as the wiring to the speakers, it will help some (I'm assuming) but the real difference is in the crossover parts. I believe the Triode Master also has some crossover upgrades, and that may be why they sound better, just a guess. P.S. my crossovers are about 7"x9"x5" and weigh about 8lbs. Out of curiosity, I put a few Herbies footers under them and did hear a difference, which means I plan to get some IsoAcoustics footers for them as well....
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I own the M3 Turbo S' and I did upgrade the 6.8uf and the 68uf capacitors using Jupiter capacitors and yes it was expensive, but wow, the sound quality is so much improved.
I still have not done any upgrading of the cross overs, but you have sparked my interest again. DO you have any pictures you could share. Sound like you build the cross over in a box or on a board outside the speaker? Can you also share the link to the Caps you purchased.
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Yes, if you are serious, I would suggest thinking about how much you're willing to spend. Then go to the Humble Homemade Hifi Capacitor test, website and research.
I ended up calling Jupiter Capacitors (google it) and talked to Chris the owner and first bought the 6.8uf parts (they are on the top of the stack) then decided to bite the bullet (after hearing the improvement) and bought the 68uf caps.
As far as putting it together, a while back I was talking to Herbie's Audio and he suggested using RTV silicone gasket (goop) as an adhesive because it has much better sonic properties than other glues or caulking. So I used the RTV to stick the parts together, as opposed to the hot melt more commonly used.
Severing the existing cap was not a problem, but making sure I had the wires connected right was certainly scary, but I did one Xover at a time and wrote down what went where.
Hope this helps.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194668)
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Hey Ric,
If you don’t mind my asking, how much did your revised crossovers cost?
My system has been down since the end of January... It’s been almost 4 months and I’m still waiting for my DAC to return from the so-called service department of some dubious distributor. :shake:
Anyhow, if I had seen pictures of the stock crossover and known my system would be down this long, I would have asked Danny @ GR Research to rebuild the crossovers with premo parts, mount them on a board inside a chassis with Banana’s in and out. It wouldn’t be cheap but it would be interesting to compare the difference better parts make.
As for voiding the 20 year warranty, it seems like a non issue since these speakers aren’t protected by fuses or by any other means, which would suggest the drivers are pretty much indestructible.
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Before :popcorn:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194669)
After :o
Holy Shit! There’s nothing quite like a picture to help a dull mind comprehend the words, “my crossovers are about 7"x9"x5" and weigh about 8lbs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194670)
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I am also not an electronics wizard, I get by with help from this forum mainly. I can build kits and solder pretty good. I really do not know how this stuff works but if I have the right parts and instructions I get by.
That being said, I am a little confused what you have going on in your picture, why so many Caps? Maybe you can explain in a bit more detail your method to your madness.
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I'm in (or at least was) in the same boat as you, but as long as you document what you're doing (or undoing) AND keep the other side intact for reference you should be fine.
The reason there are so many depth charges is that Chris did not have the 6.8uf so he gave me a six,and a .8 separately which are wired together so they add up to 6.8. (top level in photo)
Now, for the 68. I was given 5 pieces of 12uf and one 8uf which adds up to 68.(see photo). I think the reason there are so many is that you would have to make one huge 68uf, I guess it's better to add up the values for the manufacturer.
You may want to look at this website https://positive-feedback.com/Issue70/duelund.htm (copy and paste) to see this guy used the top of the line Duelund capacitors and spent $12K on the project!
That's why I asked if you had a figure you'd be willing to spend for the upgrade!
There are many manufacturers but I still say figure how much YOU are willing to spend, OR, just do the 6.8uf cap replacement first and if you like what you hear, (as I did) plan on replacing the 68uf (as I did) but respectively the cost was around $350 for the 6.8 and around $850 for the 68uf replacement caps. Yes a lot of money, but as someone said, when you buy quality it only hurts once, whereas when you buy less quality....
If you need help, send me an email and we can talk or email if you're still interested-Ric
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$850... not cheap but it is a lot less than an X-3/5. :D :D
If I can find the courage and confidence to do the work myself and make such changes, I’d be inclined to do it in series of cost measured steps rather than all at once so as not to get in over my head. There’s no doubt in my mind that crossover upgrades can make a substantial difference.
Another thing worth exploring once the crossovers are out of the way, is to try a sub amp over a limited range on the two woofers. I wonder if they might be able to dig a few Hz deeper on account of no longer requiring a linear response all the way up to the previous crossover point?
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Ric went pretty much top of the line Caps Right? What are the quality of Caps in the Stock M3T S?
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As I tried to say, there are dozens of manufacturers out there and the prices range from a few dollars to thousands of dollars, as Duelund seems to be the most expensive and the highest rated.
Let's just say that due to size constraints and cost factors, the crossover parts in the M3's are not the highest grade, but do the job. The 6.8 Dayton Audio cap costs about $3.
The question seems to be, what can a person do to get the most bang for your buck in terms of sound quality?
Unfortunately there are two variables there: bang for your buck, means how much YOU are willing to spend, and sound quality which means one capacitor sounds much better than another. In my case I looked at the Humble Homemade Hifi website and just decided to call Jupiter (Chris) and ask a few questions. Of course by that time I was ready to bite the bullet and ordered just the 6.8 capacitors (not the 68's). I cannot compare the sound of the Jupiter caps to any other cap, other than the one it replaced. Chris said he thought I'd be impressed, and I was (am).
After all is said and done, it's about sound quality--particularly not even inner detail, these caps provide a texture to the tone quality that is---very pleasing to my ear and I have no qualms about spending the money--money well spent.
What I (again) suggest if you are serious about upgrading is to replace the 6.8uf cap first (with whatever brand you want to try or can afford), and if you like or love what you are hearing, take it from there.
One other aside, is the white square looking part on the crossover marked 30ohm 10 watt (dayton audio which cost about a dollar). After doing some research it seems the PathAudio resistors are highly recommended. I have two that are coming in the mail and they cost about $50. Replacing them are supposed to give much better and smoother detailed highs. I figure what the hell, I can always reconnect the old one if I don't like it.
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This is interesting stuff, thanks so much for sharing. Has anyone written about their experience using active crossovers with Spatials? I thought that might be a worthwhile upgrade.
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Ric, How did you secure your old cross over to the top of those Caps?
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As I said, I was recommended to use RTV silicone (blue) gasket maker, that is like caulking, but has better properties with regards to sound and vibration control. So, it just so happened that after I put the depth charges (my name for the capacitors) together, the existing crossover fit nicely on to the area in the picture, and I used the RTV to glue one of the capacitors on the existing crossover to the "cradle" on the new caps. It actually is pretty sturdy, BUT, I plan to use a hangar bolt (threaded on one side and machine screw on the other) and attach that to the existing screw holes (where the crossover was screwed in) and use some 10-24 allthread and 10-24 couplings and attach that to the binding post screw holes for added security.
That will happen once the crossover has a permanent location. For now, it's great to have it open and movable and down the road I plan to experiment with replacing the internal wiring, to see how much of a difference it makes.
I already determined that using an isolation footer (ie Herbies) as support under the capacitor DOES affect the sound. Another down the road, is to use an IsoAcoustic product under it, as they work much better than the Herbies footers. Hope this helps.
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...there are dozens of manufacturers out there and the prices range from a few dollars to thousands of dollars...... The question seems to be, what can a person do to get the most bang for your buck in terms of sound quality? Unfortunately there are two variables... how much YOU are willing to spend, and sound quality...
Yes, when it comes to caps there are many options at various price points, but the law of diminishing returns is worth considering. There are always high performance options that compete with the very best for considerably less money.
The difference you save there could go into upgrading the rest of the crossover with better parts. That would probably make a bigger difference than just doing the caps alone. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. :weights:
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I own the M3 Turbo S' and I did upgrade the 6.8uf and the 68uf capacitors using Jupiter capacitors and yes it was expensive, but wow, the sound quality is so much improved.
Hi Ric,
How exactly would you describe the sound difference with the upgraded Caps. Better yet with the Upgraded 6.8 Caps Only
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In reply to your first statement, I mentioned to Chris at Jupiter caps, asking "it seems like at some point you just replace the whole xover". His reply was that it was not the best idea to do that, and I think his reasoning was that if your values (ie. 6.8) are slightly off for a number of different parts, it can throw the crossover askew from what it originally was intended. Also, if you just replace a certain value (6.8uf) and something weird happens (besides better sound :D) you know where the problem is.
As far as describing the sound: I believe the 6.8uf cap has to do with the higher frequencies (there, you see how ignorant I am of electronics) but I'm not sure if this is just for the horn tweeter or if that includes the upper mids. At any rate, the reason I looked to replace it in the first place is I was wanting more detail and air. It always sounded a bit dulled, and the reason, I believe is the parts in the crossover.
Well, I was and am very very pleased with the result, and now hear much more air and detail and strings, horns, whatever, are perceived vertically as well as more image depth and detail.
We spend a lot of money on cables and components and tweaks, trying (I believe) to get speakers to sound better when they are filtered via a crossover with lesser quality parts, and only replacing these parts give us a real window on what these speakers can do. As always YMMV, but I wholeheartedly recommend upgrading if you plan to keep your speakers. Of course you can always put the old part back and stuff it back in the cavity....
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I only use copper foil caps nowadays. Because I don't want the signal passing through tin foil or aluminum foil. That's going to degrade the signal.
From my DAC, to my preamp, to my amp, to my speakers - all capacitors in the signal path get replaced with copper foil caps. I'm not sure it "improves" the sound, as much as it removes inferior parts from the signal path that were degrading the sound.
I mean, you would never use an interconnect or speaker wire made out of aluminum foil, would you? Then why would you be OK with capacitors made out of anything but copper?
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In reply to your first statement, I mentioned to Chris at Jupiter caps, asking "it seems like at some point you just replace the whole xover". His reply was that it was not the best idea to do that, and I think his reasoning was that if your values (ie. 6.8) are slightly off for a number of different parts, it can throw the crossover askew from what it originally was intended.
That’s why anyone who sort of knows what they’re doing would at least measure and test everything before hand. But even if I sort of knew what I was doing (and I don’t) I’d rather go the distance and hire a real expert for obvious reasons. Nevertheless there’s quite a bit of information on this subject here on AC that’s worth looking into before plunging in. :thumb:
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Well I took the plunge and could not be happier.
Before
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213744)
After
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213745)
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That's great! Glad to hear that changing out a few parts results in a great sound improvement. I like your outboard, made full size on the back, nice work! For myself, because the Jupiter caps are so huge, I noticed a small (but noticeable) sound improvement from putting some sound isolation (IsoAcoutics, or Herbie's) under the caps for more vibration isolation. Glad you are enjoying it!
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So at first when I hooked up one of the XO with the original XO I was mistaken. I heard more high end and mistook it for increased detail. I later had to trouble shoot both of the new XO as they sounded very bad , harsh, little bass and too much highs. Turns out I did not have a good connection on the bass 68 Cap. I was kind of freaking out and thought I made a huge ,mistake taking this on. I was worried I was going to have to just put the old one back together. As well, when I took the original XO apart I ruined the 1.5 cap and that caused me issues, so I ended up replacing all the caps.
As for vibration I wanted them external of course. I also used this very dense rubber material I had to mount the XO and I Veneered it. I had some spike kicking around so I put those on too (looks cool, maybe helps)
In the end I have it all working and it sounds way better. They still sound like the M3T except everything is more detailed. Bass has a noticeable amount of deeper detail and a little more impact. The highs are nicer with more detail. Sound stage depth is similar , more space around all the music for sure.
I found the Path resistor to be too bright as ric stated so I left them out. Maybe I will try them again later, or sell them (anyone interested?). Overall this was a super fun project though a little stressful for someone like me building my first crossover
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I would recommend keeping them in at least until they are broken in. I found the highs too harsh on already harsh recordings, but my guess is that the path resistors aren't too bright, but they may be too strong for what they replaced. In my case, I ended up trying a pair of L-pads via Parts Express, and turned them down just a hair, and that solved the problem. IMO they are worth keeping as the highs are much improved. Yeah, I had a number of "why am I doing this, what did I do?" moments, but now that they work, everything's great. Hope I didn't steer you in the wrong direction!
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No you didn't steer me in the wrong direction, I am happy I did this. I had the itch to do the cross over. When I took the resistor off I broke the 6.8 lead, then I was committed.
As for the L -PAD , if the highs are improved further it would be worth it, how is that wired exactly.
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It's very easy, and can be removed if for some reason you don't like it. There are three tabs that accept a wire. One is for black (neg) and the other two are positive (in, from the amp/xover) and out to the tweeter. For about $20 I think it's worth a try.
https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-15w-mono-1-shaft-8-ohm--260-250
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how do you determine what wattage is needed. Does it depend on the Amp I have powering the Spatial?
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I'm the wrong person to ask, but my (limited) understanding is that the tweeters don't use a lot of power. In my case, I run the speakers fairly loud, and have not felt any overheating around the L-pad. Probably best to check with someone more knowledgeable, but I have not had a problem. I think the path audio resistors are 10 watt. Hope this helps.
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Hi ric and everyone,
I’m moding crossover of M3.
So I need diagram of tripod crossover or any mod crossover you did to learn.
Thank you
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Did anyone else try to mod M3 TSE crossover?
Thanks