Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???

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bavmike

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #40 on: 12 Mar 2018, 09:04 am »
This might be important to some, while classD produces less heat, it is not necessarily so much more efficient that it's worth really getting excited about compared to all other amp designs.

For me my favourite part is the sound. Even if they weighed 100lbs, and ran my power bill up to insane levels, I'd take what I'm hearing now over anything else I've heard regardless of price.

srb

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #41 on: 12 Mar 2018, 09:39 am »
This might be important to some, while classD produces less heat, it is not necessarily so much more efficient that it's worth really getting excited about compared to all other amp designs.
While the operational efficiency of Class D amplifiers might be a lot lower than many realize, what's not addressed is the power consumption at idle with no signal.

Many of us may have their amplifiers on for x hours per day including periods where no source signal is active that could account for 50% or more of actual "on" time, and some even leave their amplifiers on 24/7.

With typical higher power Class A and A/B stereo amplifiers consuming ~ 30W to as much as several hundred watts at idle (depending on Class and bias level), the power consumption and BTU output can be significantly higher than their Class D counterparts when silent time is calculated into the equation.

Steve

maty

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #42 on: 12 Mar 2018, 09:45 am »
Talking about XA20.5, the big brother Pass XA60.5, is H3 predominance!!!

[Polish review] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/901-pass-laboratories-xa60-5

to English with Google:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ens&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Faudio.com.pl%2Ftesty%2Fstereo%2Fwzmacniacze-stereo%2F901-pass-laboratories-xa60-5&edit-text=&act=url

Quote

Noise level of the amplifier does not exceed the -90 dB ceiling, and this is a good result, as well as 112 dB dynamics. The frequency response (Figure 1) extends from 10 Hz with a barely noticeable drop to 100 kHz, at this frequency the level at 8 ohms is -2.1 dB, and at 4 ohms -2.3 dB. In the spectrum of distortions (Fig. 2), apparently the third harmonic can be seen, reaching -72 dB, further shows the fifth and seventh, but already significantly below -90 dB.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements


maty

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #43 on: 12 Mar 2018, 09:49 am »
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa25-power-amplifier-measurements

Quote

Fortunately, the distortion in the midrange was predominantly the relatively innocuous third harmonic (fig.7), though at low frequencies the second harmonic was equal in level to the third (fig.8). But note the very low level of all distortion harmonics in this graph!


maty

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #44 on: 12 Mar 2018, 09:56 am »
Quote
Pass Labs specifies the XA25's output power as 25Wpc into 8 ohms and 50Wpc into 4 ohms (both equivalent to 14dBW). However, as you can see in figs. 4 and 5, the amplifier exceeded its specified power output at the clipping point, which we define as when the THD+noise equals 1%. At that THD+N percentage the XA25 delivered 80Wpc into 8 ohms (19dBW) and 130Wpc into 4 ohms (18.1dBW). It appears from the shape of the traces in these graphs that Pass specifies the XA25's power as when the THD+N is close to 0.01%.


Well, I always look for power at THD 0.1% in SS amps. An THD 1% in tube amps.

maty

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #45 on: 12 Mar 2018, 10:08 am »
Compare with a new DIY amplifier.

Only 20 watts. The Big Brother (BB) will have 50 watts (the problem, for now, is the heat).

Aksa Lender P-mos Hybrid Aleph (ALPHA) Amplifier you need to be registered to see the pictures

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/318102-aksa-lender-mos-hybrid-aleph-alpha-amplifier.html

[Big IMG] https://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/xrk971-Alpha-20-2.87vrms-8ohms-FFT.png

Pass XA25


JohnR

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #46 on: 12 Mar 2018, 12:21 pm »
I think in the Audio world today it’s more like 80% in the laggard bracket. Innovators and early adopters are generally frowned upon.

I guess a. that's the point of the graph and b. it's really all about defining the sample population i.e. who the graph applies to. My thought was that (referencing the OP) we're more on the "early majority" phase now than "revolution" per se.

Your future resort looks lovely. Perhaps a nice way to slough off the effects of a Trans-Pacific flight (hey you never know).

Also, please don't take this the wrong way but I'd be really grateful if you could be a bit careful about promoting your products in non-commercial circles (such as this one). Thanks  :thumb:

adydula

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #47 on: 12 Mar 2018, 01:22 pm »
My 2 cents:

"great amps" or at least those amps that are touted as great and have a rather large price tag to get all those Class A , AB watts etc...

Along comes this Class D stuff and all of a sudden lots of us see a possibe device to get lots of watts at a great lower price..

But the anti Class D folks pointed out all of its worts and negatives....

Time moves on, Class D improves?? and now its getting to be in vogue?

So I wonder if the Class D prices which were lower in comparison to the same number of watts back then now will climb up into the stratosphere...

Just sayin....

Alex
:>)

Photon46

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #48 on: 12 Mar 2018, 02:12 pm »
My 2 cents:

"great amps" or at least those amps that are touted as great and have a rather large price tag to get all those Class A , AB watts etc...

Along comes this Class D stuff and all of a sudden lots of us see a possibe device to get lots of watts at a great lower price..

But the anti Class D folks pointed out all of its worts and negatives....

Time moves on, Class D improves?? and now its getting to be in vogue?

So I wonder if the Class D prices which were lower in comparison to the same number of watts back then now will climb up into the stratosphere...

Just sayin....

Alex
:>)

Depends on the implementation. Bel Canto's Black range of components use Hypex modules and their prices are in what most most of us would consider the lower stratospheric range I'd imagine. Same with some of Jeff Rowland's gear. Consumers with cash to spare always want to find a way to distinguish themselves from the hoi polloi and there will always be entrepreneurs eager to satisfy that desire.

DaveC113

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #49 on: 12 Mar 2018, 02:18 pm »
My 2 cents:

"great amps" or at least those amps that are touted as great and have a rather large price tag to get all those Class A , AB watts etc...

Along comes this Class D stuff and all of a sudden lots of us see a possibe device to get lots of watts at a great lower price..

But the anti Class D folks pointed out all of its worts and negatives....

Time moves on, Class D improves?? and now its getting to be in vogue?

So I wonder if the Class D prices which were lower in comparison to the same number of watts back then now will climb up into the stratosphere...

Just sayin....

Alex
:>)

Hypex mandated a minimum $9800 or so for the NC1200 based amps. There will always be a place for stuff like this in cases that cost 10-20x the parts inside them. 

And there will always be a place for amps that offer the best value possible.

One will not impact the other because the markets don't overlap much.

 

DaveC113

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #50 on: 12 Mar 2018, 02:19 pm »
Depends on the implementation. Bel Canto's Black range of components use Hypex modules and their prices are in what most most of us would consider the lower stratospheric range I'd imagine. Same with some of Jeff Rowland's gear. Consumers with cash to spare always want to find a way to distinguish themselves from the hoi polloi and there will always be entrepreneurs eager to satisfy that desire.

If by "implementation" you mean a fancy case...  :lol:

Photon46

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #51 on: 12 Mar 2018, 03:03 pm »
We laugh, but it's a tried and true marketing technique that works. Look at the new $3000.00 Casio G-Shock. A fancy case, a few new "features" bells and whistles, same quartz movement as the $100 watches. :lol:




adydula

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #52 on: 12 Mar 2018, 03:45 pm »
I understand the desire for smaller devices etc....

But like I tell my son, that older 2015 sports cae still is as good as it was back then as it is in 2018.

I am old school so put my class D amp in a big, thick walled billet aluminum case!!! LOL!!

I think many of us still want a few nice looking, affordable, boxes with cables and the like....glowing tubes etc..

Time will tell......

A.


Tyson

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #53 on: 12 Mar 2018, 03:55 pm »
I used to be an early adopter, but I found out the hard way that all the bug and kinks are still in place with the early adoption products.  Like with the iPhone - I never buy the ones with the new numbers, I always buy the "S" versions.  Why?  Because all the things that sucked and people bitched about in the first numbered version gets fixed in the S version. 

I view digital amps the same way - it's been around for about 15 years as a serious attempt to make a very good sounding amp to rival the best SS amps (and as JohnR points out, it's been around as a technology per se a lot longer than that, even).  Only NOW are they starting to get it right, IME.  So I for one am happy that I sat out the last 15 years and didn't adopt anything early in this area.

I feel the same way about CD's and hirez - I came of age during the 80's, so all I ever knew was CD sound when growing up.  I wish I'd been exposed to vinyl during those early days when CDs and CD players sounded pretty awful.  But digital has caught up, especially in the last 5 years or so.  IMO the best digital is easily on par with the best vinyl.  Wasn't always the case. 

It's also a lot less expensive to be a late adopter, as you can sit back and pick up "last year's best DAC" for a song versus the cost of "this year's best DAC".  Same with amps, cables, etc... Just gotta be a little patient. 

So, to sum up - to everyone that has been an early adopter for any/all of these technologies - thank you!  Without people like you, the state of the art does not advance. 

rollo

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #54 on: 12 Mar 2018, 04:19 pm »
   Sometimes cheaper solutions sought are NOT the answer. Then again sometimes they are.


All new technologies require time to get it right. In time like CD I'm sure they will. Just make modular designs that can be upgraded as technology improves.
My complaint is buying and six months later a new design or improvement leaving my purchase moot. Digital especially. Fo me I would never invest money in a DAC that cannot be upgraded by user or download.
Willing to try and buy and keep the research afloat just make them modular.


charles

debjit.g

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #55 on: 12 Mar 2018, 04:20 pm »
Its actually the price of admission that makes early adoption possible. Some spend more on cables and power cords than what some of these amps cost....

Tyson

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #56 on: 12 Mar 2018, 04:37 pm »
Its actually the price of admission that makes early adoption possible. Some spend more on cables and power cords than what some of these amps cost....

Not around here!  AC is the audio cheapskate's hangout, dontchaknow?  Haha - I say that as one of the cheapskates :D

timind

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #57 on: 12 Mar 2018, 04:41 pm »
I'd be happy with a class D amp mounted on a piece of plywood if it sounds good.

FWIW, I was an early user of class D amps starting with the Bel Canto S300 and the PS Audio Trio A-100 amps. These amps used the same ICE modules to get 100 or so watts into 8 ohms. The PS Audio had the gain cell input buffer and I liked it much better than the Bel Canto.

Not going to list every class D amp I've owned, but there have been quite a few. I haven't heard the latest ICE modules, but have heard everything prior. My opinion is they always sound very good on initial listen. It's only after living with them for a while that I find them less than satisfying. My analogy is this: it would be like eating Snickers bars for every meal, after a while you feel somethings wrong with your diet. And I love Snickers bars.

I'm sure at some point I'll try an amp with the newest ICE technology and hope it satisfies for the long haul.

DaveC113

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Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #58 on: 12 Mar 2018, 05:04 pm »
I'd be happy with a class D amp mounted on a piece of plywood if it sounds good.

FWIW, I was an early user of class D amps starting with the Bel Canto S300 and the PS Audio Trio A-100 amps. These amps used the same ICE modules to get 100 or so watts into 8 ohms. The PS Audio had the gain cell input buffer and I liked it much better than the Bel Canto.

Not going to list every class D amp I've owned, but there have been quite a few. I haven't heard the latest ICE modules, but have heard everything prior. My opinion is they always sound very good on initial listen. It's only after living with them for a while that I find them less than satisfying. My analogy is this: it would be like eating Snickers bars for every meal, after a while you feel somethings wrong with your diet. And I love Snickers bars.

I'm sure at some point I'll try an amp with the newest ICE technology and hope it satisfies for the long haul.

I agree, I've grown to dislike every D amp I've tried.

And I prefer "value oriented" over "cheapskate"!  :lol:

Wind Chaser

Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
« Reply #59 on: 12 Mar 2018, 05:18 pm »
10 years ago the best Class D sounded okay but nothing special. The stack of amps I heard back then sounded nearly identical to some of James Bongiorno's earlier work. Since then Class D has made tremendous gargantuan strides forward and reached a point where it can easily compete with anything and everything. Even the most passionate tube fanatics are starting to acknowledge this. If you want the best possible sound technology has to offer, then you need to look beyond tubes. Today's Class D has put the amplifier world on notice, there's a much higher level of fidelity to be had, previously unknown and unobtainable. The future has arrived.