[forky]

I would agree that there is no substitute for listening to equipment in your own space but with something like the Spatials even getting them there on trial can be costly, time consuming, and even a physical challenge. My X5s came on a palette and each of the two boxes weigh about 100#. The speakers just by themselves weigh ~80#. Getting them into our basement and unpacking was not easy. I would not want to repack them and ship them back. Additionally shipping freight across the country both ways could easily be $500+. The good news is that for me these are end game speakers. I would tweak the rest of my system before considering returning them.

My point is there are very few audio stores that sell or even demo the kind of niche equipment that many of us are interested in. Many high value items are now direct sales and some come from overseas. If one has an expensive system and can afford the time and money to take in equipment on trial that is great but for most of us are stuck with extensive reading of both online reviews and word of mouth testimony. Doing endless online vetting has become essential and still has financial risk.

Having said all of this, I doubt that Clayton gets many returns, if any. I seldom see his equipment being re-sold online.

Agree with all of this. With my 1991 Mirages sounding so good (depending on the music), I can't wait for the M3s. I very much doubt I will be returning.

[forky]

+1

I have the 9.0 and will get the "X" upgrade at some point over the next year.

Thanks and good to hear this. I haven't even listened to vinyl yet w/ the new amp but looking forward to it. Ignorance is bliss so maybe I'll be happy with what I have (w/ the new cart) but I have a feeling I will be wanting better sound out of my records.

[forky]

Forky, is your Dynavector a low output or a high output?  That will make a difference as to which phonostage will interact well.

Just delivered today and it says "low output" on the box. I bought a few alignment tools and will take my time getting it on straight and level.... but will be my first time installing (correctly anyway!).

[forky]

Hi, driving my X5s with Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium Integrated produced after the capacitor upgrade. Sounds amazing. I have a Don Sachs Valhalla Integrated ordered. Most likely will keep both as I like being able to switch from ultra linear to triode on the fly, and tube rolling in the Primaluna is a lot of fun. My phono is either an Oracle Delphi MkIV with Morch UP4 arm or a VPI Prime, using the Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star cartridge. Phono pre is a Manley Chinook with way upgraded tubes. Digital is identical to Geerocks, MP D2 MK3 Deluxe with upgraded capacitors and tubes. Once the DS integrated arrives (Sept/Oct) I will post a comparison between it and the PL with the X5s. Have fun with your new system!

I'll be googling this stuff. The only things I've heard of is the VPI Prime (for some reason I don't want a VPI and I don't know why) and the Manley Chinook.

Seem that upgraded tubes is something I need to start learning more about - and will do so.

Thanks! I had permagrin for the 45 mins or so my wife let me listen to at a fairly loud volume earlier this evening - volume was on 4-ish and I didn't feel the need to push it past that - and was CLEAN (except heavy rock guitar). It's like Christmas day here for me and I don't even have the speakers yet.

[toocool4]

Although I hate returning things, if the 300 doesn't show more bass (I know I have to get in a lot of hours before the return window closes) I may return it. But....read more than a dozen posts on another board that more bass will come around 10 hours and again in other increments (50 mentioned above).

What you get at the beginning is pretty much what you will end up with, yes breakin’ is a thing but it’s only a minor refinement of what you start with. In my experience as the saying goes “An apple never falls far from the tree” so basically, it’s not going to end off far away from where it is now.

[bbybaudio]

Forky, with my Jar of Flies ,MTV live CD, there is so much bass through my PL I actually dialed back the subwoofer amp on the X5s. Similar for bass heavy Erykah Badu, Baduizm, Warren G, and many great jazz albums I have. I will note that changing out the preamp tubes on the PL made for a remarkable improvement in sound. Right now I am using NOS Mullards Blackburn UK from 1960s in first two then Brimars for the other four. Have also used Brimars in the first two preamp slots, very good. Both improve sound dramatically over stock Chinese tubes in PLs. For power tubes I use GT EL34s, Mullard copies, or TungSol KT150s.

[forky]

What you get at the beginning is pretty much what you will end up with, yes breakin’ is a thing but it’s only a minor refinement of what you start with. In my experience as the saying goes “An apple never falls far from the tree” so basically, it’s not going to end off far away from where it is now.

Thanks. I plan on starting a new thread related to this.

[forky]

Forky, with my Jar of Flies ,MTV live CD, there is so much bass through my PL I actually dialed back the subwoofer amp on the X5s. Similar for bass heavy Erykah Badu, Baduizm, Warren G, and many great jazz albums I have. I will note that changing out the preamp tubes on the PL made for a remarkable improvement in sound. Right now I am using NOS Mullards Blackburn UK from 1960s in first two then Brimars for the other four. Have also used Brimars in the first two preamp slots, very good. Both improve sound dramatically over stock Chinese tubes in PLs. For power tubes I use GT EL34s, Mullard copies, or TungSol KT150s.

Thank you for this! If you have time can you please let me know the model # for these? - for the Mullard and the Brimars anyway I looked and it looks like there is a bunch. I want to buy backup tubes anyway in case there is a shortage some day.

thanks again!

[forky]

All, I went ahead and ordered a PH 9.0x yesterday. 

I'll work on getting the Dynavector installed on my Technics 1200 over the next few weeks before it arrives - which I'm very much looking forward to.

My guess is that I'll be happy with the Technics w/ the new cart and 9.0x for a while even though I will be tempted to upgrade the 1200 - but will try *not* to and just wait and buy a better quality TT. I think I'll wait until I can pull the trigger on a Pure Fidelity (probably).

[bbybaudio]

Forky, sorry for late reply, traveling. for all of the tubes you can contact Brent Jesse at Brent Jesse Recording. He will give you great advice on the tubes he has in stock. The GT (GrooveTube) EL34M that were Mullard copies were running low. There are other GT34s out there but they are not the same. For the Mullards for the front two preamp tubes on the PL Brent sold me Mullard made 1960s from the Blackburn UK factory. They are great. The Brimars I got from Upscale audio but you can get them from Brent Jesse as well. Have fun.

[geerock]

Forky,
Brent Jesse is great.  Another stand up knowledgeable guy is Andy at Vintage Tube Services.  There are very few current production tubes that can hold a candle to the NOS stuff.  They truly bring out the best in tube audio equipment.

[forky]

Awesome, thanks to both of you and will contact Jesse ( and possibly Andy).

[forky]

Ok for the very first time since I've had a good listen to my new system (still w/o the M3s btw)  w/o my wife in the house which means at significant (but not distorted volume). A few rambling notes:

-I have to admit it I still like it loud  as long as it is distortion free. 

-I listened to the following:
-GodSmack (again) - Whatever is still a mess w/ mids WAY too bright but Voodoo was incredible - again cleaner tunes sound phenomenal although could use just a tad more bass but not much.
-Alice, Jar of Flies (again). Still the same - midrange a bit to bright and Layne's vocals way too bright. Bass was slightly better but still lacking.
-Tosca, Suzuiki (again). wow  , absolutely perfect (to me). Wouldn't change a thing. Highly recommended!
- Supertramp for the first time - Goodbye Stranger - brand new SACD- lacking bass so disappointed there.
-Rage - Know Your Enemy (my fav by them) - incredible. Wouldn't change a thing.

I did email Brent and will  order some new tubes but I know what I want and I know this is heresy but I don't care:  I want an equalizer. The recordings are so different and I know the thought behind not having tone controls is to listen to the music as it was recorded (or something like that) but really it is the producer and mixer who put their own fingerprint on it as well as some recordings are just missing. People buy $3k speaker wire to change tone so why not an EQ instead?

I'll see what the new tubes do and the M3s but if Jar of Flies is too bright I may look for a good vintage one - although I'm not spending $21k for a good one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/294276721575?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=e519cfb0-f6b5-11eb-9a26-636333326438

Ramblings from a newbie that got in a time capsule from 1993 to 2021 stereo equipment-wise.

[Rocket]

Hi,

I've never heard of speaker having greater bass with more break in. It shouldn't take more than a few hours for the drivers and tweeters to be totally run in. Your probably used to your previous speakers which may or may not have been designed this way. The reason I went away from retail speakers was firstly the cost and then I think a lot have been designed to impress during showroom demonstrations but long term listening lead to fatigue ime.

Also, sometimes even the recording isn't recorded with deep bass.

Anyway, good luck with the speakers.

Cheers Rod

[Tyson]

This is part of the reason I ordered the X3's - want more bass, just turn up the integrated sub.

[rharden]

Speakers generally don’t require a lot of burn in time, but my experience was that Spatials are different. Clayton says 150 hours for burn in. In one of his videos, he explained that this was needed to loosen up the very stiff rubber gasket on the 15-inch drivers. I noticed a pretty significant change in bass depth and speed at around 50 hours, and smaller changes across the board over the next 50 hours or so. The key to evaluating your setup with the speakers and the Primaluna will be to get as many hours as possible on both components during your evaluation period.

[newzooreview]

Speakers generally don’t require a lot of burn in time,…

There's a good, detailed discussion of loudspeaker break-in, with measurements, by a loudspeaker designer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odzMj5Csrxc

To keep on topic, the ~400 hour break-in for the M3 Sapphires is very much consistent with the break-in needed for any speaker.

[newzooreview]

For what it's worth, here are the measurements of the driver break-in referenced in Danny Ritchie's video. This is the measurement of one driver. A whole loudspeaker breaking in involves the capacitors, wiring, and all of the drivers (which may have different rates of break-in).

I pulled the data from Danny's website and put them in a table for easier reading. Eminence has a good explanation of what each of these measurements is: https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

Danny measured the fresh, new driver (column 1). Stretched it back and forth by hand (column 2). Then ran it hard for 10 seconds, 20 hours, and 40 hours and let it cool down for 5 hours each time. I highlighted the measurements he took when the driver had cooled down as an indication of the change that persists.

In almost every case, the change is moving along an exponential trend up or down. Whether it takes 100, 200, or 400 hours before the changes are no longer audible depends on the quality of the system the speaker is in and whether the listener is accustomed to listening for the sorts of things that are affected by the break in.





Data from https://www.gr-research.com/driver-burn-in.html

[franSSS]

There's a good, detailed discussion of loudspeaker break-in, with measurements, by a loudspeaker designer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odzMj5Csrxc

To keep on topic, the ~400 hour break-in for the M3 Sapphires is very much consistent with the break-in needed for any speaker.

Thank you for sharing!

[forky]

Forky, sorry for late reply, traveling. for all of the tubes you can contact Brent Jesse at Brent Jesse Recording. He will give you great advice on the tubes he has in stock. The GT (GrooveTube) EL34M that were Mullard copies were running low. There are other GT34s out there but they are not the same. For the Mullards for the front two preamp tubes on the PL Brent sold me Mullard made 1960s from the Blackburn UK factory. They are great. The Brimars I got from Upscale audio but you can get them from Brent Jesse as well. Have fun.

Thanks again for this. I ordered some new Mazdas from Jesse for the 12AU7s - but 3 pair which may be a bit much to do all 6 but look forward to finding out.

had been reading some reviews of these https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/power-tubes/products/tung-sol-kt-150 both at that site but also other forums and I couldn't resist so I bought 4 of those also.

Although I really DO like the sound I'm getting from my old speakers - it is so recording dependent which is I guess because I'm getting a much more accurate reproduction than I was. The well recorded albums are incredible  - but many are not and what seems to suffer the most is the songs get too mid-rangey (the rainbow on an equalizer) w/ lack of bass (again Jar of Flies keeps coming to mind for this).

That said, I keep re-watching Ron's (NRD) M3 reviews over and over and I think the M3s themselves will take care of the bass and maybe even smooth out the midrange some.

And I know I need to be more paitient w/ the Primaluna with the tubes that are in there but ......I couldn't help myself esp after reading stellar review after review of both the Mazda and the KT-150s. Maybe I'll have those broken in by the time my M3s arrive....then wait 200-400 hours for those to break in.

ModWright 9.0x should be here early next week! Still need to install my cartridge on my 1200.

List besides receiving the M3s are:
-decide on which turntable
-room treatment - I'm in the basement and the lay out is a odd shaped T and is generally a mess but my Mirages sound pretty good most of the time. Crappy drop down ceiling from prior owner may help w/ the acoustics some since those are that cardboard like material.
-may buy more component suspension/damping - bought some for the TT last night. Maybe for the m3s also. hmmm.