AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: JLM on 11 Aug 2022, 01:08 pm
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Drivers push as much sound into the box as out. The amount of echo and sound pressure in the box is extreme with the vast majority of it coming out via a port or bleeding through the drivers themselves. Yet little thought seems to go into the box shape. Cubes and spheres have to be the worse for echo. Stuffing and lining seem to be the only consideration. Single driver designs are the primary exceptions that use rear loaded horns, pipes, or transmission lines.
Much finesse has been put into amplification and source design, even the drivers themselves. Why not cabinet designs? Instead we use cheap MDF and focus on veneers/finishes.
The same could be said for the listening rooms. Thousands are typically invested in gear, just to end up in a horribly compromised space (the other enclosure).
Rant off.
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Drivers push as much sound into the box as out. The amount of echo and sound pressure in the box is extreme with the vast majority of it coming out via a port or bleeding through the drivers themselves. Yet little thought seems to go into the box shape. Cubes and spheres have to be the worse for echo. Stuffing and lining seem to be the only consideration. Single driver designs are the primary exceptions that use rear loaded horns, pipes, or transmission lines.
Much finesse has been put into amplification and source design, even the drivers themselves. Why not cabinet designs? Instead we use cheap MDF and focus on veneers/finishes.
The same could be said for the listening rooms. Thousands are typically invested in gear, just to end up in a horribly compromised space (the other enclosure).
Rant off.
Box design has been addressed in a few ways, most notably open or semi-open baffle. I have a pair of Gershman Acoustics speakers that are triangular rather than rectangular. There's a
Canadian manufacturer that claims their undulating interior via stacked lamination has benefit. Assuming production is a concern, both material and design are going to figure into the cost-to-build equation.
I'm afraid there are precious few who would recognize and be willing pay for something exotic in the way of construction technique. After all, audio nerds are a tiny speck on the retail radar.
Listening rooms? How many real estate listings make mention of such a thing? Home theater rooms maybe. At best it's a nod to marketing with not much regard for acoustics. Again, a blip on the overall radar.
If you've got some ideas on the speaker design front, I might be willing to explore with you as that's the only way things advance.
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Poor box design and poor integration into a typical listening space. Those 2 things plague box speakers. This is the primary reasons I switched over to high quality OB speakers and never looked back.
Well, that's not quite true. After I got my OB speakers in the downstairs system, I DID go back to box speakers when I built out an upstairs system. And it was just as much of a disaster as it always is. Now I'm back to full OB speakers. Lesson learned.
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Well it depends on if you're speaking about mass market or not. Andrew Jones says on a video (can't remember where) that, working for a large company, when you spend a few extra bucks on better crossover parts, the cost raises the price by a much higher factor. So you're passing on the costs to the consumer. Very few are willing to pay much more (hundreds) for a slight improvement.
Every decision is a compromise. If it's good enough and the vast majority can't tell or don't care, it goes out the door. The people on AC can't support the mass market. We're the rare exception, not the rule.
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Well it depends on if you're speaking about mass market or not.
Exactly. Cost is the main driver. High-end speakers are where you'll find innovation in enclosure design. For most of us, painted or veneered MDF boxes are good enough and fit within most decors. If the cabinets are suitably damped and well-braced, it shouldn't be a problem.
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Exactly. Cost is the main driver. High-end speakers are where you'll find innovation in enclosure design. For most of us, painted or veneered MDF boxes are good enough and fit within most decors. If the cabinets are suitably damped and well-braced, it shouldn't be a problem.
I spent about $20 bracing and dampening and less than a couple hours a pair of $90 DCM speakers and I noticed and appreciate the difference. Would most people notice or care about that change? HA!
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Drivers push as much sound into the box as out. The amount of echo and sound pressure in the box is extreme with the vast majority of it coming out via a port or bleeding through the drivers themselves. Yet little thought seems to go into the box shape. Cubes and spheres have to be the worse for echo. Stuffing and lining seem to be the only consideration. Single driver designs are the primary exceptions that use rear loaded horns, pipes, or transmission lines.
Much finesse has been put into amplification and source design, even the drivers themselves. Why not cabinet designs? Instead we use cheap MDF and focus on veneers/finishes.
The same could be said for the listening rooms. Thousands are typically invested in gear, just to end up in a horribly compromised space (the other enclosure).
Rant off.
Hey!
Actually spheres is the perfect shape for speaker enclosure. No parallel line and no sharp edges on the outside. But not easy to make and mostly only work with ported or sealed design which I'm not much a fan of.
With that said, it bring to what you've mentioned... transmission line and rare horn loaded are my favorite. Well, that's no surprise there since I'm using single driver with back horn loaded here. The bass sounds more tuneful and natural to me than bass coming out from a little hole in the speaker.
Of course you can go open baffle and forget about the box all together. Personally I haven't heard a properly set up open baffle in a real home setting so I can't say how I feel about it. Although I've some at the show but still somehow they didn't captivated me enough. So, if anyone in NYC area have open baffle speaker and wouldn't mind me stop by to check them out please let me know.
Well, at the end of the day... whatever float your boat man.
Buddy
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Poor box design and poor integration into a typical listening space. Those 2 things plague box speakers. This is the primary reasons I switched over to high quality OB speakers and never looked back.
Well, that's not quite true. After I got my OB speakers in the downstairs system, I DID go back to box speakers when I built out an upstairs system. And it was just as much of a disaster as it always is. Now I'm back to full OB speakers. Lesson learned.
+1.
Other awful structural issue of boxed speakers is that it emit sound only to front.
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Has anyone ventured into 3D printing for speaker cabinets? It would seem to have creative potential, allowing complete 3D design freedom while being less complex than CAD cutting and lamination processes.
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The M4 Sapphires I recently bought were the least researched and least agonizing audio purchase I’ve ever made. And to date they’re the most expensive single item I’ve bought for any system. I’m sure I bit hard on some of the hype but what sold me was Clayton’s story about how he came to open baffle design. It just resonated with me (pun not intended but I’ll go with it).
I’m not a speaker designer and I’m challenged to hear much difference between tubes and transistors let alone speaker cables plugged in backwards, but the Sapphires just sound right to me. I know they’ll sound that much better once I tame the room. How much of that is OB vs good execution? I don’t know but it’s enough to know I like them.
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I really find this entire bashing of box speakers a bit silly.
Very well designed box speakers can sound.... excellent. Open baffle can also be great, but they don't have an exclusive grip on "best".
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I could prefer a boxed Bass Reflex enclosure in the bass with a efficient 15'' driver, enclosure are useful only for making bass.
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Well heck, I'm just putting everything out on the curb later today. All hope it's lost. The illusion I had of Erich Kunzel with the Cincinnati Pops actually playing in my room with my secondary TV centric system yesterday must have been just that, an illusion.
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I really find this entire bashing of box speakers a bit silly.
Very well designed box speakers can sound.... excellent. Open baffle can also be great, but they don't have an exclusive grip on "best".
Amen 8)
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Though I like the Sapphires I’m not parting with the Philharmonic BMRs. They sound amazing to me also. I wonder though if box resonance, if not well controlled, really only becomes an issue at higher SPL. Even resonance suggests a range of sensitivity.
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Most enclosures are simple rectangles. Loudspeakers are often sized to fit the drivers on the front baffle and meet a simple volume formula. Floor standers usually end up acting more like a pipe than than the intended sealed or ported design. Sound bounces off the back wall and out through the thin walled driver cone.
Open baffles are mindlessly simple. Most musical instruments don't radiate sound front and back so the concept isn't valid.
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Jeff, you're a retired engineer. Know more about all this stuff than most people. Design your own.
I'm betting you have some ideas.
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Open baffles are mindlessly simple....
Yeah, anyone can do it.. :roll:
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I'm enjoying this thread. I wish I was a better wood worker and could make the inside of my speakers more complicated to address these concerns because I think there's something to it. But even rectangle loudspeakers that are properly braced and constructed still probably have less problems than the rooms that they are placed in most of the time. However, that doesn't mean that we can't improve the internal construction of them.
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I currently own Spatial M3 Sapphires....open baffle...great speakers. Prior to these I owned Salk Veracity ST (dual 6" seas midwoofers, RAAL tweeter, transmission line)...also a great speaker...extremely solid to the knuckle test....Sapphires and the Salks sound more alike than different and neither speaker commits any real offense.
When I think about "box speakers"...it seems to me that a lot is going on: concrete cabinets, aluminum cabinets, multi layer Baltic birch cabinets, and speakers with built in dsp to offset whatever resonances may show up in a room.....to name a few.
The issue is that these efforts to make lower resonance speakers costs more money and the trickle down to lower priced models is slow. I suspect that this is why people ending up trying so many speakers at home...to find the one that really works best in their space and with their gear.
And there are people like me...I just like changing it up every now and then and trying new things...sometimes it works toward better sound...and sometimes not...but the journey can be as enjoyable as the destination.
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Most enclosures are simple rectangles. Loudspeakers are often sized to fit the drivers on the front baffle and meet a simple volume formula. Floor standers usually end up acting more like a pipe than than the intended sealed or ported design. Sound bounces off the back wall and out through the thin walled driver cone.
Open baffles are mindlessly simple. Most musical instruments don't radiate sound front and back so the concept isn't valid.
Most unamplified instruments are omnidirectional so OB is a closer approach than box speakers.
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Open baffles are mindlessly simple. Most musical instruments don't radiate sound front and back so the concept isn't valid.
You know JLM, that sounds pretty closed minded. Seems to me concepts are just that...concepts. Aren't new ideas just what you're hinting at? There are many implementations of open baffle. To suggest it's all invalid seems more like your personal prejudice.
And the radiation of instruments? How does that say anything about speaker design? It's all synthetic reproduction at best. Seems to me if you're going down that road you'd start with microphones used to record since we really can't record what we hear anyway. We so want to quantify and nail down something that's a complex interaction between ears and brain. I don't find that tack to enhance my enjoyment of music...but that's me.
C'mon folks, let's open our minds. Since my forte is woodworking that's what I'm willing to bring to this table. Let's redesign speaker thinking ala JLM's original post.
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Has anyone ventured into 3D printing for speaker cabinets? It would seem to have creative potential, allowing complete 3D design freedom while being less complex than CAD cutting and lamination processes.
It's been done. Google will lead you to many examples. There are limitations there though. Stability of material, size and expense of printer itself and the actual print time. Seems that particular technology is in its fledgling stages so I look forward to the future. Even houses are being constructed using 3D printing tech and concrete as the medium.
It's a brave new world. Unfortunately, the speaker world is relatively small.
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In all these years of audio since the 1970s the best project I have seen was this below by an AC member probably Paul Hines I not sure, it joint OB, Line Array and CrossOverless, the others are commercial products made to profit.
Superb, highly recommended, congratulations to Paul :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204222)
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In all these years of audio since the 1970s the best project I have seen was this below by an AC member probably Paul Hines I not sure, it joint OB, Line Array and CrossOverless, the others are commercial products made to profit.
Superb, highly recommended, congratulations to Paul :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204222)
That may sound good to your ears, but it's going to comb filter like crazy. It's more complicated than that.
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That may sound good to your ears, but it's going to comb filter like crazy. It's more complicated than that.
Comb Filter is a very variable effect, it has many variables such as:
- varies with the frequency
- varies with the type of music
- varies according the room
- varies from person to person (brain)
Thank God I have never heard this anomaly in my small room and I dont know anyone who has heard Comb Filter.
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Comb Filter is a very variable effect, it has many variables such as:
- varies with the frequency yes
- varies with the type of music no
- varies according the room no
- varies from person to person (brain) no
Thank God I have never heard this anomaly in my small room and I dont know anyone who has heard Comb Filter.
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The B&W Nautilus (the one with the curly bass section) is one of better practical designs I've seen (but not heard).
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Revel M, F, and Performa book and floor standers all appear to use variations on the same theme of curved enclosures. I spent a month auditioning the smallest of the bunch (M105) and was most impressed with how solid the enclosure was. They sounded good and would still be sitting upstairs had it not been for quality control (cosmetic) and how cheaply the rest of it was executed. Their budget compromises and therefore design priority obviously favored the enclosure.
My limited experience and the intimate relationship between Revel, Harman, Floyd Toole, and NRC suggests to me that enclosures are a significant concern but manageable with good design/engineering. Of course that comes with the question of what has to be compromised to hit price points even when acknowledging economies of scale.
All this is especially important to someone like me who lacks critical listening skills/experience and isn’t blessed with golden ears. It can somewhat generalized to other audio bits and pieces and comes down to a question of who to trust when considering gear.
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Because dumb works almost everywhere:
In a boat, with a goat, in the rain, in the dark and on the train, in a car and in a tree, hey are so good so good you see.
So I listen to them in a box, with a fox...
and in a house. *
Not-Dumb speakers can have even bigger placement and listening problems than box speakers. Sit here, don't move your head, only one person at a time please.
I heard the Vivid Audio G2 Giya at an early RMAF, it could have been 2010. Amazing not-dumb design but the side mounted woofers really did strange things in that room, even though it was one of the big downstairs suites. The Vandersteen and Salk rooms which featured dumb speaker designs sounded much better.
(https://6moons.com/industryfeatures/rmaf2010/HigherNote.jpg)
* https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/I_like_Green_Eggs_and_Ham (https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/I_like_Green_Eggs_and_Ham)
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We become conditioned to various parameters, like particular room size/shapes, or style of loudspeakers. Open baffle fans have concerns about rear wave reflections, which they should, yet 99% of box loudspeaker fans have no concerns about the rear cabinet wall just inches away reflecting sound directly back through the thin largely acoustically transparent driver cone.
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We become conditioned to various parameters, like particular room size/shapes, or style of loudspeakers. Open baffle fans have concerns about rear wave reflections, which they should, yet 99% of box loudspeaker fans have no concerns about the rear cabinet wall just inches away reflecting sound directly back through the thin largely acoustically transparent driver cone.
This occurs frequently on audiocircle -- someone makes a big deal out of a single parameter and ignores the other 300 design considerations. It's like proposing with a flawless, 5 ct. diamond ring and she complains about the box it came in.
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Magnepan.. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Magnepan,
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239112)
I love my dumb enclosures!
Don P.
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I love my dumb enclosures too :thumb:
(https://i.imgur.com/Lldv9A0h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JjnO3pph.jpg)
Best,
Anand.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239112)
I love my dumb enclosures!
Don P.
Vapor is one of the brands I really like because they look like a rectangular box on the outside but are not a rectangular box on the inside.
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I love my dumb enclosures too :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
Me too!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243790)
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Vapor is one of the brands I really like because they look like a rectangular box on the outside but are not a rectangular box on the inside.
Thanks Tyson. Not many are familiar with the complexity of the Vapor cabinets. Stacked CNC birch plywood in a transmission line design. Upper modules are totally separate cabinets.
Don P
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I should have clarified, "Why are the interior of most loudspeaker enclosure shapes so dumb? (just rectangular)".
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I should have clarified, "Why are the interior of most loudspeaker enclosure shapes so dumb? (just rectangular)".
Complex interiors are usually heavier. And more complicated to build. And more expensive from a materials standpoint. So it’s possible but expensive. You tend to see it used in ultra high end speakers where the extra cost can be recouped.
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Complex interiors are usually heavier. And more complicated to build. And more expensive from a materials standpoint. So it’s possible but expensive. You tend to see it used in ultra high end speakers where the extra cost can be recouped.
Definitely heavier. My Vapor Joules tip the scales at 250 pounds each.
Don P
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Seems to me that a spherical or ball like baffle might have the least negative propagating diffractions & an egg shaped inside of a box the least internal "boxy" reflections. There have been a few curved speaker cabinets and a few spherical. I once had Tannoy's with the side walls not parallel, and still heard a presence of the internal walls, also some early KEF pre LS50 that were curved on all sides except the front baffle and here again heard something of the speaker box shape. I've tried open baffles and then hear the back wall shape and nearness. Even with lots of stuffing inside a box, I've always heard the shape of the box.
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Complex interiors are usually heavier. And more complicated to build. And more expensive from a materials standpoint. So it’s possible but expensive. You tend to see it used in ultra high end speakers where the extra cost can be recouped.
Most of that is just rationalizations. The only loudspeaker cabinets I ever built were 6 cu. ft. tri-fold transmission lines in 1980, after one year of wood working shop class and using my Dad's table saw, not that hard or expensive. Big and heavy, yes but within the realm of doable. Their "problem" was that they were performance brutes, capable of 114 dB at 17 Hz using a single 8 inch woofer, too much for any room I'd ever afford but sounded great in a 20,000 cu. ft. chapel driven by a 20 wpc receiver.
Seems to me that loudspeaker manufacturers just want to redo the same old sealed or ported designs in hollow rectangular boxes.
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Most of that is just rationalizations. The only loudspeaker cabinets I ever built were 6 cu. ft. tri-fold transmission lines in 1980, after one year of wood working shop class and using my Dad's table saw, not that hard or expensive. Big and heavy, yes but within the realm of doable. Their "problem" was that they were performance brutes, capable of 114 dB at 17 Hz using a single 8 inch woofer, too much for any room I'd ever afford but sounded great in a 20,000 cu. ft. chapel driven by a 20 wpc receiver.
Seems to me that loudspeaker manufacturers just want to redo the same old sealed or ported designs in hollow rectangular boxes.
It’s not rationalization, it’s profit. Which is the reason companies are in business - to make profit.
Also, it sounds like you're bored with the standard speaker models that are offered. I feel you on that one. I got bored of 6" midrange and 1 inch dome tweeter in a box a long time ago. Most of my speaker choices nowadays involve some type of alternate design elements that break that mold. Everything from horns (Klipsch Heresy and Forte's), AMT Tweeters (Spatial Audio X3's), Planar Magnetic midrange and tweeters (GR Research Super 7's). And of course, moving away from boxes completely and going full OB because I can't get a box to integrate into my rooms as well as OB speakers.
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The B&W Nautilus (the one with the curly bass section) is one of better practical designs I've seen (but not heard).
Check out the Waveform Mach 17 speakers. An early adopter of both low diffraction, low resonance cabinets, and active crossovers (I'm sure ultimately the downfall). Introduced now with people more accepting of active systems they'd probably be a hit. I have a friend who built a clone pair with modern high quality drivers and a DEQX crossover. Absolutely transparent sound.
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One of the best bass reflex speakers of the 70's was the Design Acoustics D-12... but it was a short lived design due to manufacturing cost. If you are designing for something other than a small niche market, a rectangular box is actually a good choice-- hence why it's so common.
(https://www.rewindaudio.com/uploads/4/6/9/4/46947077/design-acoustic-d12-speakers-rental-main-main_orig.jpg)
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Three pages and no one has clearly articulated why interior rectangles are a problem, especially if well braced and damped. Of course, we know that every box or not-box design has its pros and cons, but what is it about rectangles that cause bigger problems than other designs?
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Ice cream anyone? :lol:
(https://www.sgcustomsound.com/images/SundaeShwCs1.jpg)
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Three pages and no one has clearly articulated why interior rectangles are a problem, especially if well braced and damped. Of course, we know that every box or not-box design has its pros and cons, but what is it about rectangles that cause bigger problems than other designs?
There's no problem. Stuffing easily damps midrange box reflections w wavelengths less than a foot. Low freq box dimensions are much smaller than the wavelengths their drivers emit, so there is no resonant modes, just pressure pulses which are handled well by a strong cabinet construction and quality voltage source amplifier.
Beware the hifi intelligencia who believe specs and measurements, construction technique and the consensus design formula of the moment are more important than the sound and feeling the speakers make. Im not sure they actually believe in it themselves either, but they sure do want us to believe them.
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Seems to me that a spherical or ball like baffle might have the least negative propagating diffractions & an egg shaped inside of a box the least internal "boxy" reflections. There have been a few curved speaker cabinets and a few spherical.
Correct, the sphere is the best enclosure shape, second is the cylinder or tube.
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Correct, the sphere is the best enclosure shape, second is the cylinder or tube.
"Best" perhaps in one way (i.e., fewer box reflections), but they're butt ugly and impractical.
I recall when SVS sold subs in tubes. They worked well in a dedicated home theater room or if you were single and wished to remain so. Otherwise, they looked ridiculous. Today, SVS only builds subs with rectangular boxes.
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Man I feel these speakers very beautiful,
imagine it in black piano:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243852)
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"Best" perhaps in one way (i.e., fewer box reflections), but they're butt ugly and impractical.
I recall when SVS sold subs in tubes. They worked well in a dedicated home theater room or if you were single and wished to remain so. Otherwise, they looked ridiculous. Today, SVS only builds subs with rectangular boxes.
I agree with a lot of your post, but.....
https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000-pro
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There's no problem. Stuffing easily damps midrange box reflections w wavelengths less than a foot. Low freq box dimensions are much smaller than the wavelengths their drivers emit, so there is no resonant modes, just pressure pulses which are handled well by a strong cabinet construction and quality voltage source amplifier.
Beware the hifi intelligencia who believe specs and measurements, construction technique and the consensus design formula of the moment are more important than the sound and feeling the speakers make. Im not sure they actually believe in it themselves either, but they sure do want us to believe them.
I wish you would just stop it with such nonsense. :wink: :green:
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I agree with a lot of your post, but.....
https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000-pro
Does this sub come bundled with a divorce attorney?
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I agree with a lot of your post, but.....
https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000-pro
Thanks a lot. After looking at the SVS sub from this link now I'm getting ads for it on my Facebook feed, literally 30 seconds later. I'm never clicking on a link to anything ever again, it's too spooky.
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Here's a couple of active 2-way designs that clicks many of my boxes from a few years back (please read the reviews):
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/se-electronics-munro-egg-150
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/munro-sonic-egg-150
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/munro-sonic-egg-100
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Those look cool. Fully active plus an egg shaped cabinet should make those a cut above a lot of other speakers.
I ran active for a while, back when I was doing some speaker design for my home setup. The only problem I found was that it's hard to upgrade the amps if they are part of a fully integrated system like this one. Not sure how important future upgradeability is to you, though.
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Here's a couple of active 2-way designs that clicks many of my boxes from a few years back....
I have a pair of the Munro Sonic 150s. Danny Ritchie built me a set of passive networks for them so I can also experiment with other amplification. Great little speakers. Again, these cabinets with little or no cabinet diffraction just vanish.
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Those are interesting. Any idea what's become of the designs? From the reviews I gather they were molded which would have taken considerable time and $$ just for molds to be made. If I had to guess I'd say it wasn't viable financially, which is kinda sad but that's what drives a commercial venture after all. If it can't earn its keep, it will eventually fade into oblivion.
I could get close in looks with stacked lamination, but would be a boat load of work to finish like photos. Easier if a stepped exterior/interior was employed but even that would be huge gob of hand work.
I wonder if the molds could be purchased?
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Those are interesting. Any idea what's become of the designs? From the reviews I gather they were molded which would have taken considerable time and $$ just for molds to be made. If I had to guess I'd say it wasn't viable financially, which is kinda sad but that's what drives a commercial venture after all. If it can't earn its keep, it will eventually fade into oblivion.
I could get close in looks with stacked lamination, but would be a boat load of work to finish like photos. Easier if a stepped exterior/interior was employed but even that would be huge gob of hand work.
I wonder if the molds could be purchased?
Making the plug would be the tough part. Molds made of fiberglass are easy and reasonable cost.
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Making the plug would be the tough part. Molds made of fiberglass are easy and reasonable cost.
Judging from image of interior ribs and reinforcement this was likely injection molded. Article says it's three pieces. I thought of f-glass or even carbon fiber, but I think rigidity would be a concern at reasonable thickness so would need some bracing which I assume ribs were addressing.
Possibly could be done in half shells front and rear and then joined, but still considerable work, not to mention development, some of which is beyond me. And I'd have to work fiberglass, which makes me itch thinking about it!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243868)
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Why not just 3d print a pair of egg shaped cabinets?
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Why not just 3d print a pair of egg shaped cabinets?
Do you have experience with such a thing? Easier said than done,methinks, but I'm your cheerleader if you give it a go.
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I could like to suggest the traditional wooden barrel for 15 and 18 inch woffers one of the best solutions to woofers, I suppose the price not expensive as fiber-glass or plastics.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b99075_7731b5dbc35a4434aba34d846749077d~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_980,h_551,al_c,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/b99075_7731b5dbc35a4434aba34d846749077d~mv2.png)
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...I could get close in looks with stacked lamination, but would be a boat load of work to finish like photos. Easier if a stepped exterior/interior was employed but even that would be huge gob of hand work...
That's how my friend did the Egg part of his Waveform clones mentioned earlier.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243878)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243879)
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Here is an enclosure design that has very little to no resistance on the driver. It’s a full range single driver rear loaded horn based on the Tractrix theory. Take great drivers out of the “box”, place them in a superior design, and let the magic happen!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243888)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243891)
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Do you have experience with such a thing? Easier said than done,methinks, but I'm your cheerleader if you give it a go.
I've never tried it. I expect the most challenging step in the process will be developing the 3d model itself. Then you have to determine the best material to use, and get access to a printer that is capable of printing large items. I would expect that the printing for such a large item would be outsourced. Here's one I found with a quick search.
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/
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Here is an enclosure design that has very little to no resistance on the driver. It’s a full range single driver rear loaded horn based on the Tractrix theory. Take great drivers out of the “box”, place them in a superior design, and let the magic happen!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243888)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243891)
That's certainly a great design and very likely sounds fantastic but man, is that ugly! :o 8)
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That's certainly a great design and very likely sounds fantastic but man, is that ugly! :o 8)
I disagree, they look very cool to me. More like art pieces than speakers.
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That tie engraved wood is an ornament that does not need to be used, I suppose it only available to Lowthers :scratch:
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I disagree, they look very cool to me. More like art pieces than speakers.
Agreed, I like the black/maple combination. I appreciate the additional detail incorporated for the aesthetic. Very nice.
Best,
Ed
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That's certainly a great design and very likely sounds fantastic but man, is that ugly! :o 8)
I disagree, they look very cool to me. More like art pieces than speakers.
Beauty is in the eye…I agree with Tyson! The first time I saw them up close I was thinking the same thing. A work of art that will
emotionally engage you in the music.
That tie engraved wood is an ornament that does not need to be used, I suppose it only available to Lowthers :scratch:
Please clarify your statement dunno what your commenting on?
The horns are solid wood Baltic birch plywood! No MDF or compressed cardboard! The chamber holding the Voxativ AF 2.6 is a series of Maple rings and the Maple face supports the driver chamber and is decorative. All cut on a C&C machine.
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For a more traditional look the Maestro and MaestroX might fit the bill.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243927)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243929)
http://charneyaudio.com/the-maestro.html
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Here is an enclosure design that has very little to no resistance on the driver. It’s a full range single driver rear loaded horn based on the Tractrix theory. Take great drivers out of the “box”, place them in a superior design, and let the magic happen!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243888)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243891)
This design, like many adapted to extended range drivers requires lots of math and a bigger cabinet, while most DIYer's would rather make lots of sawdust from multiple simple sealed/ported boxes. The egg shaped cabinets I referenced above is an alternative. It uses a deadened molded material in a superior shape.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243941)
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Another one that looks like that last one.
https://frugal-horn.com/daleks.html
(https://frugal-horn.com//images/dalek-horn-1.jpg)
an enclosure design that has very little to no resistance on the driver
There is a restriction coming out of the air cavity that provides signicant resistance above a certain cutoff frequency.
dave
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Hi all.
Have a look at this: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/oeplay-powerful-hi-fi-speaker-with-iconic-design#/
What are your opinions regarding this design?
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The cyclinder shape sucks. The sphere is nicer but they have not dealth with the transition from the plane to the sphere.
The video is obviosuly from the marketing deportment and the only thing it tells us is that it is an AMT tweeter, which span from junk to really good.
But it is another fully powered driver pair with built-in streaming. Like KEF LSX, LS60 and a growing number from other vendors. This is a system, not a loudspeaker.
If this is the only info available it screams “stay-away” to me. But they might be good.
dave
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Apparently, Parts Express sponsors a diy speaker design contest annually. One just took place a few weeks ago, first since the start of the pandemic I believe. My friend who built the active Waveform clones speakers mentioned above is one of the judges for the event. He just sent me a link to the post contest discussion. It includes a lot of pictures of the entries and some discussion of the builds people may find interesting. There seemed to be very few rectangular box speakers in the contest, so I thought it might be relevant to this discussion. My friend said the quality of the sound of many of these entries was remarkable, including some in the under $300 category.
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1489058-sdc-not-mwaf-2022-fallout-thread#post1489148
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Some of those are interesting, and a surprising number of nit very pretty.
No single driver full ranges thou.
dave
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....No single driver full ranges thou.
dave
There are criteria for the competition, and I'm quite sure single driver speakers just aren't going to be competitive. I think I saw a pair in the background of one picture, and I believe all types are welcome, but they wouldn't be able to win the contest.
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There are criteria for the competition, and I'm quite sure single driver speakers just aren't going to be competitive. I think I saw a pair in the background of one picture, and I believe all types are welcome, but they wouldn't be able to win the contest.
More likely PE wants to sell crossover parts also. :wink:
:lol:
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More likely PE wants to sell crossover parts
;^)
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Looks like you guys have created a challenge for yourselves as it sounds like you both believe you could win. Take a single driver speaker design (of your own) out next year and join the fun. There's no restrictions or limitations on the design if you can get it there, it'll be entered. No entry fees. Much to your disappointment, PE doesn't disqualify designs. I wish you luck. Please keep us posted on your progress.
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The contest is in the USA. Forbidden territory.
dave
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More likely PE wants to sell crossover parts also. :wink:
:lol:
+1.
They dont want public know the crossoverless truth, this contest is just to reinforce the public's belief in multi-way speakers and its hi SPL capability.
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Why can't speakers just be small wireless balls that we place on shelves? UGH
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Why can't speakers just be small wireless balls that we place on shelves? UGH
Small speakers dont make bass and wireless dont allow cable manufacturers charge huge prices.
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Why can't speakers just be small wireless balls that we place on shelves? UGH
Physics.
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Physics.
You beat me to it.
dave
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Physics.
TESLA COULD HAVE DONE IT IF THEY DIDN'T KILL HIM FOR TRYING TO GIVE EVERYONE FREE POWER
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I like Tesla, he thought out of the box, the best.
Maybe a good headphone could please you.
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Did headphones while in college dorms - perfect there but in-room loudspeakers, even with all the challenges, are superior in theory and can be in practice.
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Did headphones while in college dorms - perfect there but in-room loudspeakers, even with all the challenges, are superior in theory and can be in practice.
Well, not according to everyone railing against rectangular boxes. 😅 I've had all types of boxes and panels except single driver and they all have their advantages. I'll be waiting for that perfect speaker with flat 20hz-20khz response, 0% distortion, totally non reactive load, unfettered dispersion, for $29.95 at Walmart. Until then we'll be bargaining with physics and available funding.
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Well, not according to everyone railing against rectangular boxes. 😅 I've had all types of boxes and panels except single driver and they all have their advantages. I'll be waiting for that perfect speaker with flat 20hz-20khz response, 0% distortion, totally non reactive load, unfettered dispersion, for $29.95 at Walmart. Until then we'll be bargaining with physics and available funding.
According to the laws of physics, size matters. The enclosure for the perfect speaker would be HUGE! A high-end, but still entry-level design would be dual 15" powered woofers, a 12-inch midrange, and a big-ass horn-loaded tweeter. If the enclosure is anything other than a rectangle, it will be double or triple the price, although primarily for aesthetics.
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According to the laws of physics, size matters. The enclosure for the perfect speaker would be HUGE! A high-end, but still entry-level design would be dual 15" powered woofers, a 12-inch midrange, and a big-ass horn-loaded tweeter. If the enclosure is anything other than a rectangle, it will be double or triple the price, although primarily for aesthetics.
The funny thing is that what you describe is almost exactly what I have in my upstairs system, the Spatial Audio X3's. Big horn loaded AMT tweeter. 12 inch paper midrange. 15 inch bass woofer. Just in an OB format instead of a box format.
They make enough bass for me (strong to about 30hz), but if somebody wanted the bottom octave they could add a sub or 2.
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According to the laws of physics, size matters. The enclosure for the perfect speaker would be HUGE!
To get bass you need big. Everything in audio revolves around the wavelength being reproduced.
dave
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To get bass you need big.
Or long
REL G1 MkII (https://rel.net/shop/uncategorized/g1-mark-ii/)
12 in., 300mm long throw, carbon fiber cone with inverted carbon fibre centre cap
Suspension travel now permits over 2” of stroke
-6 dB at 15Hz
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The funny thing is that what you describe is almost exactly what I have in my upstairs system, the Spatial Audio X3's. Big horn loaded AMT tweeter. 12 inch paper midrange. 15 inch bass woofer. Just in an OB format instead of a box format.
They make enough bass for me (strong to about 30hz), but if somebody wanted the bottom octave they could add a sub or 2.
With three GR Research dual OB servo subs, I'm a big fan of open baffle designs. The downside is you need several OB subs. I think a quad of triples would be ideal for tremendously musical bass. If given a choice, I'd create a hybrid speaker -- OB on the bass, enclosed midrange, and horn-loaded highs.
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40 years ago I had I. M. Fried Model M (derivatives of the famous "coffin" Model H) 6 cubic foot passive woofer cabinets that were capable of 114 dB at 17 Hz. More powerful than any room I'd ever afford, but with 20 wpc sounded magnificent in a 20,000 cubic foot chapel. They used a tri-folded transmission line design that Fried was a genius at developing. Not only powerful but dynamic and musical.
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Anyone bring up Ed Schilling's subwoofer in a bucket yet?
https://transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html#:~:text=1.%20Turn%20bucket%20upside%20down%20and%20use%20driver,The%20cement%20should%20anchor%20the%20screws%20and%20feet (https://transcendentsound.com/bucket-sub.html#:~:text=1.%20Turn%20bucket%20upside%20down%20and%20use%20driver,The%20cement%20should%20anchor%20the%20screws%20and%20feet)
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Fried Model M...passive woofer cabinets that were capable of 114 dB at 17 Hz.
A B200 SP1022 (http://"http://p10hifi.net/TLS/drivers/images/B200_SP1022.gif") (in any enclosure) is incapable of reaching that far or playing that loud. Maybe that loud higher up on transients.
(https://p10hifi.net/forum/friedM-man-page.png)
https://www.t-linespeakers.org/classics/friedH/fried_H.html
dave
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Anyone bring up Ed Schilling's subwoofer in a bucket yet?
He has certainly been one ro promote it. Nothing new thou.
dave
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A B200 SP1022 (http://"http://p10hifi.net/TLS/drivers/images/B200_SP1022.gif") (in any enclosure) is incapable of reaching that far or playing that loud. Maybe that loud higher up on transients.
(https://p10hifi.net/forum/friedM-man-page.png)
https://www.t-linespeakers.org/classics/friedH/fried_H.html
dave
Thanks for the super monitor sketch. My bass boxes were slightly smaller, 24 inches by 36 inches by 12 inches but the same design. You're probably right about spl/frequency manufacturer's specifications. But they were very powerful (and musical).
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they were very powerful (and musical).
:^)
We sold a few, more Hs thou. Most of the traffic were Rs and Cs.
dave
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:^)
We sold a few, more Hs thou. Most of the traffic were Rs and Cs.
dave
Had no idea you'd been a Fried dealer. I bought Bs while in college (which I upgraded), Ms (which I kit built), and a couple pair of Qs. A friend had Cs that he kit built, very impressive but he's modified them over the years to suit his tastes and gear. As I recall the Rs were "line tunnels" (like the Qs) and sold during his hay day. I visited him once in Philly. His family was in real estate. His office was very understated. The listening room was maybe 15ft x 15ft x 30ft and covered in stacks of audio magazines, about 8 pair of his speakers, and a card table with a cheap Garrard turntable with a Onyko receiver underneath on more piles of magazines (circa 1979). No treatments, in fact the front wall was plate glass windows.
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With three GR Research dual OB servo subs, I'm a big fan of open baffle designs. The downside is you need several OB subs. I think a quad of triples would be ideal for tremendously musical bass. If given a choice, I'd create a hybrid speaker -- OB on the bass, enclosed midrange, and horn-loaded highs.
Hi, I agree about the sound of OB bass, quite sublime and definitely more realistic and musical, I put it down to being non resonant and it doesn't pressurise the room like other kinds of speaker.
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Had no idea you'd been a Fried dealer.
Bud came visit us once. He took my idea of a “pyramidal mid/top box and expanded on the idea in the M design, so i had a small cntribution to your loudspeaker design.
This what i showed him, he added a 3rd sloped side.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/SoundHoundsPyramid-B110-T27.pdf
dave