[ginetto61]

I see in the thrift markets a lot of AV amps from years ago that nobody buys at pretty unbelievable prices   
Like the equivalent of $ 30 per amp plus 5.1 speaker system (I'm obviously talking of cheap systems)
I was wondering if any of these old amps it might sound good as a stereo only integrated
I remember some old threads here regarding JVC, Panasonic, Sony S-master? is there any model worth looking for?
or are they insufficient for a really decent stereo-only listening?
Possibly with proper speakers terminals and not proprietary plugs (but if it is very good sounding i could try some diy)
I will be using it on my desk for listening from PC 
thanks a lot and greetings, gino 

P.S. right now i am using this one ...

not bad but small in power  I would like something more powerful

[Jon L]

There are certain famous vintage amps that sell for a lot of money still, so what you are looking for is one of those forgotten, mass-produced integrated amps that happen to sound good. 

I have no idea why on earth this 50 wpc Pioneer SA750 2-channel integrated amp sounds so good, but I suspect they got lucky with accidental synergy among output devices and simple circuitry used.  Compared to many low-cost Chi-Fi class-D, tube, Tripath amps, Pioneer simply sounds WAY more clear, sweet, airy, and dynamic.   

[ginetto61]

There are certain famous vintage amps that sell for a lot of money still, so what you are looking for is one of those forgotten, mass-produced integrated amps that happen to sound good. 

Hi !  thank you very much indeed.  You have really read my mind 
let's say that more than giants killers i am looking for hidden little gems that nobody cares of ... mass produced amps that happens to have been designed and built
Wow  ... i see 350W of power consumption on the back ... a good start for sure 
I am a little obsessed with big power supply   The same circuitry can sound better with a better psu

I have no idea why on earth this 50 wpc Pioneer SA750 2-channel integrated amp sounds so good, but I suspect they got lucky with accidental synergy among output devices and simple circuitry used. 
Compared to many low-cost Chi-Fi class-D, tube, Tripath amps, Pioneer simply sounds WAY more clear, sweet, airy, and dynamic.   

search is on ... i have already seen one
Thanks a lot again. 
gino

[charmerci]

I've got one of these Pioneer VSX-912K.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.0 

(P.S. the thread goes on until 2018)

[WGH]

If gino's profile is current he is in Milan, Italy. I looked on craigslist and didn't see anything.
What is the A/C volts in Italy?

[opnly bafld]

220v 50hz

[ginetto61]

I've got one of these Pioneer VSX-912K that I'm selling for $100 shipped CONUS.  (I keep forgetting to post it for sale here - I'll do it tonight when I have some time. I'd like to sell it for less but half of this price will be my shipping cost.) 
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.0 
(P.S. the thread goes on until 2018)   

Hi ! thanks for the offer.  I should have add that i live in Italy (Milan) and to US prices i have to add shipping and customs.  More important as i would like to put it under my monitor i am looking for something low in height ... like 4" high more or less 
The above mentioned Pioneer is more attractive to me size wise. 

If gino's profile is current he is in Milan, Italy. I looked on craigslist and didn't see anything.  What is the A/C volts in Italy? 

Hi ! yes. I work in Milan.  The mains are usually 230V i guess 50Hz ? 
Usually we find 2nd hand units on ebay.it or for the better quality equipment i usually look on hifishark.com - Europe region to avoid customs mostly because the US prices are so much better than italian prices   You are very very lucky. 
But as i said at the beginning i remember a period here in the forum when there was a intense debate about some HT units (like JVC, Panasonic) where people were amazed by their sound quality. 
I think i have found something here

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=11032.180   

When i visit the thrift stores i see these old AV amp that are heading to the garbage bin because no one wants them ... maybe for a reason ? 
They are low profile and usually powered with smps.  Perfect size to put them under a monitor for instance   I am looking for something for my desk top system
I guess that most of them are nothing special.  But maybe some ... 
Unfortunately many has strange sockets to connect the speakers. 

[Letitroll98]

I also have a Pioneer VSX 912 doing home theater duty.  I've played around a bit with James Romeyn's advice on easy mods for the unit and I think this one is universal for all vintage receivers, shorting plugs on every unused input (not output, don't want to blow up anything).  Makes a remarkable difference is the noise floor.  They're easy to make with a bag of cheap RCA plugs, just a dab of solder on the two leads crimped together.  Supposedly the unit was chosen by Earl Geddes for demonstrating his speakers because it had the lowest switching distortion he had measured, for James it sounded better than thousands of dollars of his previous equipment, he's since moved on to something else.  I found the chip amp problematic in that it hates any load below 8ohms and frequently trips protection circuits if you use speakers that ever drop below 6ohms in their entire range.  What I find delightful is the pre amp section, sweet and detailed, and I think the main reason this receiver sounds so good.  So for two channel sound I just threw and old amp on the back of the receiver.  I'm about to revive the unit in my new digs and see if it still works.

[ginetto61]

I also have a Pioneer VSX 912 doing home theater duty.  I've played around a bit with James Romeyn's advice on easy mods for the unit and I think this one is universal for all vintage receivers, shorting plugs on every unused input (not output, don't want to blow up anything).  Makes a remarkable difference is the noise floor.  They're easy to make with a bag of cheap RCA plugs, just a dab of solder on the two leads crimped together.  Supposedly the unit was chosen by Earl Geddes for demonstrating his speakers because it had the lowest switching distortion he had measured, for James it sounded better than thousands of dollars of his previous equipment, he's since moved on to something else. 
I found the chip amp problematic in that it hates any load below 8ohms and frequently trips protection circuits if you use speakers that ever drop below 6ohms in their entire range.  What I find delightful is the pre amp section, sweet and detailed, and I think the main reason this receiver sounds so good.  So for two channel sound I just threw and old amp on the back of the receiver.  I'm about to revive the unit in my new digs and see if it still works.   

Hi ! thanks a lot for the kind advice.  I have to say that my problem is more with the power amp section. 
I have here a small tube buffer that can play as preamp for a power amp. 
And size is an issue.  Low profile and possibly mide size width would be better.   Unfortunately amps of these sizes are not that common 
As i said i see many AV amps with smps in the thrift stores i visit ... they cost usually as little as 30-40USD ... 100-150W of power consumption.  As i am using only the L and R front channels all the power would be for these channels ?      

[WGH]

I have here a small tube buffer that can play as preamp for a power amp. 

I would look for the original Adcom GFA-535 (not the II). Heavy and built like a tank, it is one of the sweetest sounding 60 wpc channel amps made. Average used price is $100, you don't need to pay more.
https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/adcom_gfa-535_power_amplifier/index.html

[RDavidson]

A sleeper that can be had super cheap is the Harman Kardon AVR20ii

[ginetto61]

I would look for the original Adcom GFA-535 (not the II). Heavy and built like a tank, it is one of the sweetest sounding 60 wpc channel amps made. Average used price is $100, you don't need to pay more.
https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/adcom_gfa-535_power_amplifier/index.html

Hi ! thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.  I had an Adcom in the past and it was very good.  Stupid me i did not keep it.  But you know ... 
The form factor is fine.  I would like to place the amp under the monitor and keep the little buffer preamp at hand reach.  Maybe the amp is overkill for my task ... i am watching these old av amps heading for the garbage bin ... nobody wants them   Maybe there are some with a nice sound
I mean like Sony Smaster ... or Panasonic digital ... or Sharp ... JVC ... they were more popular in the past years on this forum 
I remember someone modifying it for even greater sound 

A sleeper that can be had super cheap is the Harman Kardon AVR20ii   

Hi !  i love HK brand.   But i am looking for something with a lower profile ... less bulky   Thanks anyway 

[Letitroll98]

As i am using only the L and R front channels all the power would be for these channels ?   

Yes and no.  The power supply wouldn't be drawn down by the unused channels, so you'd get a modest increase in available wattage for the front channels.  But the driver board would be unchanged so the extra power would be limited.  More like you'd get the full potential of the design.

[ginetto61]

  Yes and no.  The power supply wouldn't be drawn down by the unused channels, so you'd get a modest increase in available wattage for the front channels.  But the driver board would be unchanged so the extra power would be limited. 

Hi ! thank you very much indeed for the very helpful advice.  I was clearly thinking wrong ...    Too bad. 
If i am not wrong some of these interesting AV receivers was the JVC RX-ES1SL and RX-F10S very popular at the time 
Another one the Panasonic Sa-xr  series ? 

  More like you'd get the full potential of the design. 

sorry but i think i do not understand ... what do you mean by this ?  it sounds like a good thing 

[Letitroll98]

What I meant was that when you use all the channels on these inexpensive receivers the power supply sags when it tries to feed all of the channels demanding power so the output power drops.  When only running two channels the power supply doesn't have the same demand so can devote it's full output to the front channels.  Yes, is a good thing, but likely won't make a big difference on a desktop system.

The two receivers you listed are early class D amps which have horrible reputations for a harsh, gritty sound.   But one never knows if some product development engineer got it right and they sound great.  I don't think that's likely, the problem is the high frequency switching didn't get filtered out on early class D amps, so not likely solved by chance.

[ginetto61]

What I meant was that when you use all the channels on these inexpensive receivers the power supply sags when it tries to feed all of the channels demanding power so the output power drops.  When only running two channels the power supply doesn't have the same demand so can devote it's full output to the front channels.  Yes, is a good thing, but likely won't make a big difference on a desktop system.... The two receivers you listed are early class D amps which have horrible reputations for a harsh, gritty sound.   But one never knows if some product development engineer got it right and they sound great.  I don't think that's likely, the problem is the high frequency switching didn't get filtered out on early class D amps, so not likely solved by chance. 

Perfect !  message received loud and clear.  And actually no one is still using them.  I remember badly.  I will stick with more traditional AB class amps then.  I still have an OT doubt ... about the use of SMPS in audio amp.  That would be nice. 
Thanks a lot. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I don't know if this qualifies as old but I just bought a used Marantz SR4023  2.1 ch receiver on Agon for $149 to use in a bedroom system or with a TV and it sounds surprisingly good, especially if you put it in direct mode bypassing the tone controls.  It has the typical house marantz sound, a little bit of warmth and darkness.

I lost out on a bid for an HK 3490 on ebay and bought the Marantz which I suspect will be more reliable.

[ginetto61]

Hi !  i kindly ask if it is possible to modify the subject title adding   -  Small to medium form factor  -   I forgot to mention from the beginning thank you very much indeed. 

   I don't know if this qualifies as old but I just bought a used Marantz SR4023  2.1 ch receiver on Agon for $149 to use in a bedroom system or with a TV and it sounds surprisingly good, especially if you put it in direct mode bypassing the tone controls.  It has the typical house marantz sound, a little bit of warmth and darkness.
I lost out on a bid for an HK 3490 on ebay and bought the Marantz which I suspect will be more reliable. 

Hi ! thank you very much about your kind and interesting advice   I am sure the sound from both the Marantz and HK units must be excellent.
I made an early mistake  ... i am correcting the thread title mentioning that form factor is indeed an issue.  I am looking for something mini to midsize to put on the desk right below my monitor and for nearfield listening.  Of course the sound quality would be decisive but more so the form factor.   Sorry again for the misleading title. 
And i am abandoning the idea of AV receivers ... the very good ones like the ones you mention are really too big for a desk system
I would prefer to have a rapid access to the unit controls ... volume and inputs at least.  They should be at hand reach. 
Thanks a lot again. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I would consider a Dayton Audio DTA-120 or the 120BT.  I have an older DTA100a and it sounds very good for the price.  The 120 has more power and is supposed to be of better quality.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dta-120-class-t-mini-amplifier-60-wpc--300-3800

I would also look for a used PS Audio Sprout or NAD 3020 7050 integrated.  These are perfect for a desk top and have built in DAC's.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NAD-3020-Hybrid-Digital-Amplifier/254690966900?hash=item3b4cc3bd74:g:sjcAAOSw6GNfOqWc

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa47ha-nad-d-7050-solid-state

Teac also makes some small integrated amps

[bixby]

I know your issue is size and I can appreciate that, I went that route many times before with a very good sounding Virtue amp to a not bad sounding Chinese chip amp to a much better sounding class a/b and now a very good sounding 19 year old amp.

My experience with the lower cost class d is that they are really not that great.  Different sounding yes, nowhere near power specs, check!  Trends was okay even better the little Chinese chip amp with 30 volt power supply.

I had one raved about cult like JVC (not that great really) ages ago and the Virtue amp put an end to that one.  Recently, though I have gone back to good ole class ab.  First a new NAD C316BEE.  A rip off in my use case @$450 IMHO if you are just concerned about sound.  The Dayton AP-150 (has usable volume control and might fit on a desk) sounded better.  But better sounding yet is the 19 year old Sonance Sonamp 260.   And for about $100 or less plus shipping a very good value, provided you find a nice example.

As for form factor, that is why they have the floor beneath the desk.  Grab a $59 passive volume like a JDS or Schiit and run the cable down to a very good sounding amp.  Good luck with the search.