Song Towers vs. Axiom M80's

DMurphy · « **Reply #40 on:** 21 Feb 2009, 01:24 am »

Again--I doubt that it's cone materials, or listener sensitivity to different materials--I'll bet the farm (which is probably in foreclosure anyhow) that it's a crossover issue. So don't limit your search in any way. Magnesium, aluminum, paper, treated paper, banana peel, whatever. The important thing is to try and listen first, or have iron clad return privileges.

Toka · « **Reply #41 on:** 21 Feb 2009, 08:43 am »

Quote from: DMurphy on 21 Feb 2009, 01:24 am

Again--I doubt that it's cone materials, or listener sensitivity to different materials--I'll bet the farm (which is probably in foreclosure anyhow) that it's a crossover issue. So don't limit your search in any way. Magnesium, aluminum, paper, treated paper, banana peel, whatever. The important thing is to try and listen first, or have iron clad return privileges.

Agreed...I've heard Axioms sound awful, and I've heard Axioms sound great. Heard bright soft domes and laid back metal cones. Just as an option (and building on what Dennis said) Skiing Ninja seems to be offering re-build Axiom crossovers: http://www.skiingninja.com/Axiom-M22v2-Upgrades-p/m22v2.htm (some measurements in the link for those who like to see them. Don't have a strong opinion on the matter either way as I haven't heard them with the SN crossovers). Don't see your models listed but it would hurt to ask.

But beyond all this the most sage advice rings true: If you don't like it, return it.

Nuance · « **Reply #42 on:** 21 Feb 2009, 10:39 am »

Quote from: Toka on 21 Feb 2009, 08:43 am

Agreed...I've heard Axioms sound awful, and I've heard Axioms sound great. Heard bright soft domes and laid back metal cones. Just as an option (and building on what Dennis said) Skiing Ninja seems to be offering re-build Axiom crossovers: http://www.skiingninja.com/Axiom-M22v2-Upgrades-p/m22v2.htm (some measurements in the link for those who like to see them. Don't have a strong opinion on the matter either way as I haven't heard them with the SN crossovers). Don't see your models listed but it would hurt to ask.

But beyond all this the most sage advice rings true: If you don't like it, return it.

Is it just me, or do both graphs look "not so good" from 3 KHz and up. I see that skiing ninja claims that the rise in their revision was on purpose for off-axis listening because "most users do not listen exactly on-axis." That's a load of bunk if I've ever heard it. Anyone who pays for an "upgraded crossover" probably listens on-axis.

http://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-onaxis-fr-comparison-lg.jpg

BoB/335 · « **Reply #43 on:** 21 Feb 2009, 12:27 pm »

Let's see. $470 for a pair of M22's (even cheaper through the Outlet Store) and $317 for new crossovers. I wonder how many people actually do that.

It's also been suggested to me to have Axion send me some resisitors to place on the tweeter section to roll off the highs a bit.

Let's see what happens tomorrow!

zybar · « **Reply #44 on:** 21 Feb 2009, 01:41 pm »

Quote from: BoB/335 on 21 Feb 2009, 12:27 pm

Let's see. $470 for a pair of M22's (even cheaper through the Outlet Store) and $317 for new crossovers. I wonder how many people actually do that.

It's also been suggested to me to have Axion send me some resisitors to place on the tweeter section to roll off the highs a bit.

Let's see what happens tomorrow!

I purchased a pair of AV123 LS speakers for a couple hundred and spent more than that making improvements. Most of the additional funding was spent on improving the crossover, but I also added No-Rez, and some bracing to the cabinet. Those changes made a substantial improvement and IMO, are well worth it. I know feel like I have a speaker that not only looks good, but sounds much better than what I could buy for the total amount invested.

George

DMurphy · « **Reply #45 on:** 21 Feb 2009, 03:56 pm »

Quote from: BoB/335 on 21 Feb 2009, 12:27 pm

Let's see. $470 for a pair of M22's (even cheaper through the Outlet Store) and $317 for new crossovers. I wonder how many people actually do that.

It's also been suggested to me to have Axion send me some resisitors to place on the tweeter section to roll off the highs a bit.

Let's see what happens tomorrow!

Like you, I'm kind of doubting a lot of those $317 crossover mods are going out the door. And the designer is using a philosophy I don't think holds up. He deliberately elevates the on-axis response at the upper end so that the response 30 degrees off axis will appear flat, arguing that most people listen off axis, so that's where you want flat response. The problem is, most people don't end up listening that far off axis at normal listening distances, and certainly not if any toe-in is used. Plus, that on-axis sound isn't just disappearing--it's getting reflected and reaching the ears indirectly. the overall response will still sound bright. As for just using resistors--that's tricky. The brightness you are hearing may be due to inadequately controlled cone breakup in the metal woofers, which usually is in the 5-7 kHz range. Adding tweeter attenation isn't going to do anything about that.

ttan98 · « **Reply #46 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 09:21 am »

Quote from: DMurphy on 21 Feb 2009, 03:56 pm

Like you, I'm kind of doubting a lot of those $317 crossover mods are going out the door. And the designer is using a philosophy I don't think holds up. He deliberately elevates the on-axis response at the upper end so that the response 30 degrees off axis will appear flat, arguing that most people listen off axis, so that's where you want flat response. The problem is, most people don't end up listening that far off axis at normal listening distances, and certainly not if any toe-in is used. Plus, that on-axis sound isn't just disappearing--it's getting reflected and reaching the ears indirectly. the overall response will still sound bright. As for just using resistors--that's tricky. The brightness you are hearing may be due to inadequately controlled cone breakup in the metal woofers, which usually is in the 5-7 kHz range. Adding tweeter attenation isn't going to do anything about that.

This post is not to degrade Danny as a designer at GRresearch, he had designed many great sounding speakers, most people would agree. BTW I have not heard any of his speakers, I live down under too far away. Lately his designs(from his forum) seem to have a lift(measured on axis, range from 0 to +3dB) at the upper frequency range, 8Khz and above. I asked him why, the reason he gave me I was not convinced. The reason you gave above is quite convincing.

The x-over I designed is flat on axis as the directivity of my compression horn is very good the off axis response is also very good, a drop of less than 3 dB when measured off axis. BTW in the past you gave me a few tips on drivers selection. Thanks.

Also on the OB project designed by J. Bagby, uses PHL1120 as mid-range and do you think B&C 6MD38 would sound equally good and priced at 1/2 to 2/3rd of PHL1120?

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #47 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 10:54 am »

Quote from: ttan98 on 22 Feb 2009, 09:21 am

This post is not to degrade Danny as a designer at GRresearch, he had designed many great sounding speakers, most people would agree. BTW I have not heard any of his speakers...

Wait a minute... if you are suggesting Danny Richie designs the crossovers for Skiing Ninja... that is wrong!

Skiing Ninja / Sean Parque is located in Wellington, Colorado. Danny Richie / GR Research is 700 miles southeast located in Iowa Park, Texas.

For clarification read "About Us.

ttan98 · « **Reply #48 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 01:05 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 22 Feb 2009, 10:54 am

Quote from: ttan98 on 22 Feb 2009, 09:21 am
This post is not to degrade Danny as a designer at GRresearch, he had designed many great sounding speakers, most people would agree. BTW I have not heard any of his speakers...

Wait a minute... if you are suggesting Danny Richie designs the crossovers for Skiing Ninja... that is wrong!

Skiing Ninja / Sean Parque is located in Wellington, Colorado. Danny Richie / GR Research is 700 miles southeast located in Iowa Park, Texas.

From the "About Us" page of Skiing Ninja

Skiing Ninja Systems started in May of 2006 after years of Sean's involvement in the audio world. Many of you may know the name Sean Parque and many may be hearing it for the first time, but either way if it was not for his passion to great sound none of us would be here. Sean's upgraded crossovers and speakers found their way to a few others and they loved what they heard. People wanted to have the upgraded crossovers for themselves and started calling them the 'Ninja Crossovers'.

BTW, don't read too much into specs or assume anything about Danny's work. Two years ago I laughed, mocked and criticized one of his designs on his forum... but when I finally had a chance to hear them, I was smitten. Danny's work is impeccable and untouchable. His least expensive speakers will put to shame most things out there because of the extraordinary performance to value ratio. Simply put, GR Research, although little known, is the definitive, butt kicking, highest of the high value speaker company on the planet.

I never said that or suggested/implied that. What I mean was his designs from his forum. They are for everyone to see.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #49 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 02:28 pm »

Quote from: ttan98 on 22 Feb 2009, 01:05 pm

I never said that or suggested/implied that. What I mean was his designs from his forum. They are for everyone to see.

Okay, why did you even bring it up then? Your comments about Danny and GR research are in direct response to DMurphy's post, and he made no reference to Danny / GR Research.

Nuance · « **Reply #50 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 03:54 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 22 Feb 2009, 02:28 pm

Quote from: ttan98 on 22 Feb 2009, 01:05 pm
I never said that or suggested/implied that. What I mean was his designs from his forum. They are for everyone to see.

Okay, why did you even bring it up then? Your comments about Danny and GR research are in direct response to DMurphy's post, and he made no reference to Danny / GR Research.

Take it easy dude. No one is insulting your "boy's" work.

Nuance · « **Reply #51 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 03:54 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 22 Feb 2009, 10:54 am

Quote from: ttan98 on 22 Feb 2009, 09:21 am
This post is not to degrade Danny as a designer at GRresearch, he had designed many great sounding speakers, most people would agree. BTW I have not heard any of his speakers...

Wait a minute... if you are suggesting Danny Richie designs the crossovers for Skiing Ninja... that is wrong!

Skiing Ninja / Sean Parque is located in Wellington, Colorado. Danny Richie / GR Research is 700 miles southeast located in Iowa Park, Texas.

From the "About Us" page of Skiing Ninja

Skiing Ninja Systems started in May of 2006 after years of Sean's involvement in the audio world. Many of you may know the name Sean Parque and many may be hearing it for the first time, but either way if it was not for his passion to great sound none of us would be here. Sean's upgraded crossovers and speakers found their way to a few others and they loved what they heard. People wanted to have the upgraded crossovers for themselves and started calling them the 'Ninja Crossovers'.

BTW, don't read too much into specs or assume anything about Danny's work. Two years ago I laughed, mocked and criticized one of his designs on his forum... but when I finally had a chance to hear them, I was smitten. Danny's work is impeccable and untouchable. His least expensive speakers will put to shame most things out there because of the extraordinary performance to value ratio. Simply put, GR Research, although little known, is the definitive, butt kicking, highest of the high value speaker company on the planet.

Well, that's an opinion, so...

Danny is good, but from what I've heard, I prefer Dennis' work, which is again an opinion (and yes, I've heard Danny's work). Saying Danny's work is untouchable is nothing more than opinion. You'd never catch me trying to pass off a personal opinion as fact, because it's a foolish thing to do. Maybe you should heed the same mannerism, as Danny's work won't be for everyone and certainly isn't the "highest of the high value speaker company on the planet."

DMurphy · « **Reply #52 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 04:14 pm »

Oooooooooops. Let's cut this one off right here. Things took a wrong turn due to an ambiguous reply to one of my posts. Danny's name should never have come up (I was never talking about him), and let's forget it did. We don't need any tribal wars here. I've always said I have the greatest respect for Danny, and I loved two of his designs at Denver last October, even though they were at opposite ends of the price spectrum. Let's get back to wondering how big and heavy the HT4 is going to be.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #53 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 04:19 pm »

Oh pardon me with my enthusiasm for a Salk competitor. When I directed those comments to ttan98, I didn't realize which circle I was in.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #54 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 04:43 pm »

Previous promotional post ammended.

We now return to regular programming.

Nuance · « **Reply #55 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 05:01 pm »

Agreed. Let's get back on track here.

Nick77 · « **Reply #56 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 06:52 pm »

Sooooo any updates? Inquiring minds want to know how the audition turned out.

evan1 · « **Reply #57 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 06:57 pm »

Chill guys we are comparing right now and so far he likes the Song Towers. I am sure Bob will chime in when he gets home

evan1 · « **Reply #58 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 07:07 pm »

Bob is on the right and representing the NY Auido Rave are Joe to the left and Levi hidden behind Bob

MaxCast · « **Reply #59 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 07:31 pm »

Let's have Bob do a lonewolf impersonation