Song Towers vs. Axiom M80's

BoB/335 · « **on:** 19 Feb 2009, 02:12 pm »

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and was invited by Nuance. A complete Axiom system was delivered late last week (and then I was away till Monday night) I only have the M80's hooked up (still) and I am not happy. I am using a brand new Denon 2309 (it seems many here have higher end gear).
I was told on a few occassions that Axioms are bright. I had auditioned a few speakers prior and had liked the Paradigm Studio 60's. I was assured on the Axiom Forum that if I liked the Studio 60's that I would love the M80's.

I do not have a designated HT. I have a livingroom with oak floors and a leather loveseat and couch. A 10' window on one wall with venetian blinds. My 52" LCD is in a corner under a staircase going up with my left speaker angled off the wall (but close) and my right speaker angled off the wall going along the staircase (both speakers have the back left corner almost touching the wall and then angled off the wall) and the right speaker also has a foyer going back beyond the speaker to the foot of the stairs and the front wall of the house. (about 9' from the back of the right speaker) I guess a pic would paint a thousand words.

I thought the critical component of the system would be the mains listening in stereo. I haven't set up the rest and I haven't done any setting up with my receiver. I'm under the impression that that is not needed with just mains. The speakers just sound too bright with most sources. For regular TV watching the voices are thin sounding and overall sounds fuller when some music comes in. The bottom end on the M80's is pretty good.
For strictly music the bottom end is still good but the mids sound thin and the highs can be shrill at times. The clarity and details are very good just not pleasing sounding. (hope that makes sense)

I have another 3 weeks with these as a trial. I have contacted a member here and owner of ST's who is not too far from me and we are hoping to hook up and maybe even bring my M80's over for comparison.

So I'm wondering if anyone has heard the M80's and how they compare to ST's. Also wondering what the difference would be between the dome and ribbon tweeters in the ST's. And any other info and/or opinions that might help me.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 02:35 pm »

Couple of things:

Could be a short break in is required for the speakers. I'd bet 20 to 40 hours would do it. Stretch 'em out to see if it mellows out.

The room could be your culprit, so yes, a photo would help.

Any Equalizer settings altering the sound you may be unaware of?

Try another source component to see if it is a system synergy thing. Maybe a Squeezebox directly to an amp - borrow one temporarily.

saisunil · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 02:50 pm »

This may not be the right forum - you may want to ask this in audio central or general forum.

Keep some music from CD on repeat in loop for a week or so ...
You are dealing with new equipment - speakers, amp, perhaps cables too?

I would recommend that you call Axiom and work with them. It can take several weeks of playing for the system to break-in settle down.

Good Luck

earthbound · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 03:39 pm »

Quote from: saisunil on 19 Feb 2009, 02:50 pm

This may not be the right forum - you may want to ask this in audio central or general forum.

Keep some music from CD on repeat in loop for a week or so ...
You are dealing with new equipment - speakers, amp, perhaps cables too?

I would recommend that you call Axiom and work with them. It can take several weeks of playing for the system to break-in settle down.

Good Luck

Somewhere, maybe this forum, I was reading about how to break in speakers without breaking your ears. You put the speakers close together facing each other, then reverse wire one of them so that while one is pushing air the other is sucking. This way you can play them very loud without much "noise" escaping into the room.

Nuance · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 04:26 pm »

Bob, nice to see you here.

I didn't know about your setup/room placement issues, so with that in mind it could certainly be some crazy room interaction that you're hearing. Also, you're going to want to check the receiver to make sure certain EQ's aren't enabled. I haven't used a Denon in a while, but be sure all EQ is off and that the tone adjustments (bass and treble) are flat (zero). If that doens't help you can try running Audyssey EQ (if the Denon has it) to see if it helps with the thin mids and brightness, but I am not a fan of Audyssey so who knows...

As BRM said, pics would be most helpful. With the speakers being so close to the walls, you're bound to have reflections, and while I do think Axioms are a little bright even under ideal conditions, the reflections may be amplifying that sound.

So have you set up an appointment to audition the ST's? In comparison, the SongTower's have a lush, detailed midrange. It is big and full, unlike the Amiom's thin and small presentation. The top end is also more refined, especially if you listen to the ribbon version. Instrument timbre is more accurate, as is sibilance. To my ears the ribbons are more accurate to the real thing (live music), but the domes on the QWT SongTower's are one of the only soft domes I've ever liked.

Hope that helps. I hope your situation gets resolved and you find a speaker that will bring you years of happiness, even if it's not a Salk product. Best wishes to you!

BoB/335 · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 04:52 pm »

I thought this might be a good place to discuss this since I was hoping to get imput like Nuance gave. I am considering returning these and was hoping for some comparisons with ST's.

adydula · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 05:26 pm »

Bob,

Make sure your receiver is set to the 2 ch ONLY mode, I am not familiar with your DENON, had DENON stuff 15 yrs back, but my Onkyo HT receiver has a 2 ch mode called PURE AUDIO...I am sure that the DENON has a similiar mode...its in this mode the tone controls etc arent in the loop, no preamp equilizations..just to the amp and out.

Be careful because there are modes that may sound like 2 ch, but may add DSP or other adders to the sound, for example I have a Stereo mode which is the 2 mains plus the sub...read the manal and try that mode with a good 2 ch source cd or otherwise.

All the best and welcome!
Alex

MaxCast · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 05:42 pm »

Bob, you're not intruding. But members may not feel comfortable recommending anything else than Salk in the Salk circle.

Take your Denon and your speakers to your buddy's. If they still sound as described then send them back and buy some Salks.

If they sound better then it has more to do with your room and speaker position.

BoB/335 · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:02 pm »

He's not my buddy but a forum member here. I will have to see if he minds me bringing my receiver. That would be a good idea.

I have my receiver set to "large", 2 channel, "Pure Direct" as opposed to "Stereo" and I really don't hear a difference between those two anyway.

I don't expect anyone to recommend anything other than Salk on this forum nor can I see where I may have previously implied that. I have read some comments on ST's vs Rockets and I believe vs Paradigm Studio 100's. I would think that everyone here owns Salk speakers. I thought of posting this in the thread "What Speakers Did You Replace to see if anyone replaced M80's with ST's. I decided instead to start a new thread hoping to also included people who may have tried Axiom and didn't buy them and then replace them.

Tyson · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:15 pm »

I had Axioms for a while, they are bright speakers. I'd recommend getting something with a more inherently pleasing sound.

BoB/335 · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:23 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 19 Feb 2009, 08:15 pm

I had Axioms for a while, they are bright speakers. I'd recommend getting something with a more inherently pleasing sound.

Anything in particular that you would want to recommend?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:32 pm »

Quote from: BoB/335 on 19 Feb 2009, 08:02 pm

I expected a little better welcome here. Thanks for the help. I will seek more detailed advice elsewhere.

I'm confused. What was not good about the welcome you have received so far?

bpape · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:34 pm »

I'd agree with the setting the receiver to 2 channel. Most likely, in a default state, it thinks you have a center channel which is part of the issue I suspect. That's not going to help with brightness but it will help the dialog issue.

The overall description of what you're hearing sounds very reasonable given the room is all hard surfaces and has a large glass window in it. An area rug will tame things a little but only in the upper mids and highs. Take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm obviously a big believer in room treatments.

The Axiom's aren't bad speakers. IMO, they're not what the Song Towers are though. Also remember though that you're driving these with a receiver. Very few recievers will really grab hold of speakers and show what they'll do the same way a good power amplifier will. Even so, I think the ST's would be a big step up for you. You'll still have room issues to address though.

Bryan

Tyson · « **Reply #13 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: BoB/335 on 19 Feb 2009, 08:23 pm

Quote from: Tyson on 19 Feb 2009, 08:15 pm
I had Axioms for a while, they are bright speakers. I'd recommend getting something with a more inherently pleasing sound.

Anything in particular that you would want to recommend?

Sure, what's your price range? As starter advice, I'd recommend moving away from metal tweeters and metal based woofers, and move toward paper or carbon fiber or poly based woofers, and silk based tweeters. Dynaudio is a good brand, as is Sonus Faber, Meadowlark, Proac, Usher, all will give you a more naturally musical sound than the Axiom's, particularly if you want to stay with a receiver. Nothing wrong with the Denon, it should have good synergy with any of these speakers.

evan1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: BoB/335 on 19 Feb 2009, 02:12 pm

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and was invited by Nuance. A complete Axiom system was delivered late last week (and then I was away till Monday night) I only have the M80's hooked up (still) and I am not happy. I am using a brand new Denon 2309 (it seems many here have higher end gear).
I was told on a few occassions that Axioms are bright. I had auditioned a few speakers prior and had liked the Paradigm Studio 60's. I was assured on the Axiom Forum that if I liked the Studio 60's that I would love the M80's.

I do not have a designated HT. I have a livingroom with oak floors and a leather loveseat and couch. A 10' window on one wall with venetian blinds. My 52" LCD is in a corner under a staircase going up with my left speaker angled off the wall (but close) and my right speaker angled off the wall going along the staircase (both speakers have the back left corner almost touching the wall and then angled off the wall) and the right speaker also has a foyer going back beyond the speaker to the foot of the stairs and the front wall of the house. (about 9' from the back of the right speaker) I guess a pic would paint a thousand words.

I thought the critical component of the system would be the mains listening in stereo. I haven't set up the rest and I haven't done any setting up with my receiver. I'm under the impression that that is not needed with just mains. The speakers just sound too bright with most sources. For regular TV watching the voices are thin sounding and overall sounds fuller when some music comes in. The bottom end on the M80's is pretty good.
For strictly music the bottom end is still good but the mids sound thin and the highs can be shrill at times. The clarity and details are very good just not pleasing sounding. (hope that makes sense)

I have another 3 weeks with these as a trial. I have contacted a member here and owner of ST's who is not too far from me and we are hoping to hook up and maybe even bring my M80's over for comparison.

So I'm wondering if anyone has heard the M80's and how they compare to ST's. Also wondering what the difference would be between the dome and ribbon tweeters in the ST's. And any other info and/or opinions that might help me.

Bob
bring your speakers and some music. Our rooms are not that much different plus I do have room treatments, so lets hear how they compare to the ST's

martyo · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 08:55 pm »

Quote

Sure, what's your price range? As starter advice, I'd recommend moving away from metal tweeters and metal based woofers, and move toward paper or carbon fiber or poly based woofers, and silk based tweeters. Dynaudio is a good brand, as is Sonus Faber, Meadowlark, Proac, Usher, all will give you a more naturally musical sound than the Axiom's, particularly if you want to stay with a receiver. Nothing wrong with the Denon, it should have good synergy with any of these speakers.

It's not the material of the driver, but the implementation. Salk speakers aren't bright. All the above mentioned speakers are fine but would be put in the "warm" category, they do not have the resolving characteristics and neutrality of the Salks. Some people prefer a "warm" presentation.

Go to your buddies house and have a listen.

BoB/335 · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 09:11 pm »

Well Evan,

I guess I can't fight it anymore. We have been declared buddies too many times. Hope you don't mind. (Maybe you will after you find out I'm a crackpot

)

I do have a throw rug down. (Actually finally bought one in anticipation of the arrival of these speakers) The window is rarely exposed. Closed vinyl verticals. That's about it.

The speakers are not in any kind of default state. I thought I made that clear. Two channel stereo set large. Have toggled between "Pure Direct" and "Stereo" and hear no difference.

I just finished reading on another thread in this forum that any receiver in the 100 watt range is more than adequate for these speakers. That comment was from Dennis or Jim. When I find it again I will post a link.

evan1 · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Feb 2009, 09:13 pm »

keep the verticals open they will act as some type of absorbtion, and 100 watts is plenty. I used to run them with a 35 watt tube amp also. I'll call you tommorow afternoon after I make sure I am not working Sunday

Nuance · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 12:10 am »

Evan, you are a good man.

Bob, you know that Salk owners are going to recommend Salk products.

Regardless, you've been given some great advice, so I wouldn't say you've haven't gotten a good welcome.

Anyway, it sounds like you have an audition lined up soon. Evan is nice guy. Best wishes to you and your audition, and if you don't like them I am sure you'll find something that tickles your fancy eventually.

If you don't like bright, don't get Rocket's or Studio 100's. The tweeter on the new 100's is definitely a little bright IMO, and the Rocket 850s have always been a touch bright to my ears. I prefer a little top end zing, but not too much. Tyson made some good recommendations all well.

Just my $0.02.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Feb 2009, 01:18 am »

Quote from: BoB/335 on 19 Feb 2009, 09:11 pm

I just finished reading on another thread in this forum that any receiver in the 100 watt range is more than adequate for these speakers.

While you can never be too rich or have too many watts, 100 watts per channel is more than sufficient to drive the SongTowers. With high quality components with a more powerful amplifier, the SongTowers will sing even sweeter, but that is true with any speaker, and it is almost required of other speakers. The SongTowers are very flexible regarding placement and amplifier power. At RMAF, Jim demonstrated the SongTowers, I believe, with a 120 watt AVA integrated amp.

Welcome to the Salk forum.