Joining the Club

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adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #40 on: 19 Feb 2009, 05:16 pm »
OK,

I am sitting here in the DUKE Hospital Chemo Center with my wonderful wife as she is getting miracle drugs applied to her that helps in her battle with cancer.
The good news is the drugs seem to be helping! So while I am sitting her for half a day I thought I would start sharing my impressions to date with my new SongTowers QWT's.

I have only had these bad boys for 2 days and only one short session for an hour or so, but already I have formed some opinions.

Normally one seems to go thru listening to music one knows fairly well, and try to make comparisons of of 'hopefully' how much better the new transducers sound, and explain the positive differences. Like I listen to track 4 of cd "ABC" and I hear more detail, more bass, crisper highs etc...

Over the years there is a lot of baggage built up in our craniums based on audio experiences from past speakers and music.

I spent the last few weeks really listening to my existing speakers to get familiar with the music I would eventually make some critical analysis of in comparing the old vs the new.

(NOTE: This is a really good way to past the time by waiting for your Salk speakers to arrive!  :D).

Many thanks to the Demo suggestions (another thread we started) I discovered several new great artist/cd's that I have and will use to do my analysis.

Before we get into the part 2 where I will hopefully compare media/cd and artist/track I have these first impressions:

1. A pain to set up with the bases and spikes attached. Imagine that. This is true of any large, heavy object with spikes on a thick carpet. You might want some help in moving them around and be careful when you grab them not to put a finger/hand into or on a speaker itself!!

2. The initial setup position is on either side of a 58" plasma display, with the speaker fronts 10-12 inches in front of the display. Being an old 2ch audio person I have always hated the HT display when listening to 2 CH for obvious reasons..like the impact on the soundstage. So its important in a HT environment to get the fronts of the speakers ahead of the huge displays out there. They were angled in towards the center of the listening position approx 20" from the rear walls and 20" from the side walls. My listening room is the one over the garage, its about 16 feet wide and 20 feet deep. This side walls are 5 feet tall and then angle up at 45 degrees to the ceiling which is 8 ft. So the room is not really small, but not overtly large. The geometry is indeed different and you would think very challenging.

3. The speakers are bi wired and connected to a Onkyo 805 receiver and the source CD player is Toshiba A35 HD player. Everything is played in Onkyo's Pure Audio mode....so there is no soundstge or DSP processing going on. The only possible impacts on the source would be the sound of the electronics ie amp. The connection is HDMI. I will try the audio out as well, and I do have another 'high' end cd deck coming!  :D

4. So like many I placed Jims Demo CD in and started listening. The first impression was 'WOW' these are different in a good way. The first set of adjectives were: Clear, Accurate, Revealing, Smooth, Sweet....I had Jennifer Warens Hunter CD and never really thought that much of it, and when I listened to Somewhere, Somebody I really was floored at how wonderful her voice sounded and when the male vocalist started in it was clear and articulate....I never recall reacting to this cut in this manner. I listened to 3 other tracks and had to stop for the evening.

5. The next day I had the chance to go thru several CD's of mine. But this time things were different. The speakers did not seem to have the bass I expected from several cd's and I noticed that if i changed seats that the Soundstage/imaging was 'different'. So I got out the measure and found that the speakers were not placed as symmetrically as I thought, they were off 2 inches on one side from the side wall and 2 inches from the back wall. so much for eyeball placement.  So we repositioned them so they were exactly in the same place and towed them out to Jim's recommended imaginary spot just behind the listening position. In my case I have two leather recliners in the sweet spot. Having two chairs is good and bad, I am always conflicted as to which one to sit it!!! :duh: So with the speakers reset I started over with the same cd's.  Well I was really astonished. The bass was back, the soundstage and imaging were back and they were back in a better way. As I went down thru 5 cd's of all types of music I was really floored at what I was now hearing.
I thought the night before was good, but now it was even better.

6. Playing Jennifer Warnes, The Hunter and Cowboy Junkies, Trinity Session (the 1987 recording) I was floored at how well the SongTowers were performing....I was going nuts trying to listen to the speakers, trying to find any faults but being torn to listening to the music itself and all the intricacies of the material. So did the speakers do their job, I would say YES, in short order.

First Impression here was in this speaker positioning, the soundstage was very large, it filled across the entire front of the room, no holes, it was also 'thick', meaning the depth of the soundstage was several feet 'wide'....several times I got up to make sure the 5.1 HT speakers were indeed off. what an illusion, I kept getting up to see if my wife downstairs was calling to me  :D....I had to double check that we were indeed in 2 ch mode. I liked this a lot.

It felt at times like the speakers were NOT there. This is good. Yes of course this is only with recordings that are well done, mic'd and recorded. But when the combination is right its close to magic.

If you play a CD with only sound coming out of one speaker / channel this illusion is broken, but when / if the other channel kicks in the soundstage is made complete and away you go.

7. Compared to my Dahlquist QX10's the sound is just different. I would say the SongTowers are more tonally accurate and less colored. When listening to the Cowboy Junkies the low end bass sounds are just different, with the QX10;s there was a decided 'boom, boom" the speakers were trying to reveal some really low stuff...(sorry for the poor example) but with the QWT's it was more of I feel the low end stuff here but I hear it less...this is strange to me and I will play with the placement somewhat to see what happens with this low end stuff. Its like the SongTowers maybe rolling off here in frequency response. I would like to hear from others who have listened to CJ on their ST's.
The imaging is wonderful due to the soundstage being as wide as it is..some may say soundstage and imaging are the same but they are different to me.

8. If the recording is well made and mic'd well its easier to hear instruments and their placement. The SongTowers make picking out instruments an easy task when playing such material.

9. All this discussion on soundstage and imaging leads me to the word: Revealing. I am hearing things those missing things again!! :) Its been awhile since I had my full range Mirage M1's and the experience here is similar....you have a speaker that allows you to hear all the stuff in the recording in its frequency range, good or bad.

10. I did play James Newton Howard and Friends and I had to crank up the volume to the SPL's I was used to in listening to this CD on my Mirages. So I came away with the impression that these speakers do not play as loud as the old M1's. In my relatively small room this is not an issue, but again thats why there are larger FULL range speakers. This cd is brutally 'brutal' if you play this the dynamics are full off to full on , like DMP's Tunnel and TriCycle...be careful.
Several tracks have sounds that are airy, light and shimmering transparent...this is where I thought the dome tweeters would fall down...they did NOT disappoint, they are soo, soo sweet! Play Track 6 "Borealis"..AMAZING...but if you crank it up watch out for the ending...play this once thru to make sure now where the transitions are.

Ok this is a lot for now and I will repost stuff as I learn and listen.

The one overall riding thing that comes out of this short time with the SongTowers is you will want to take your time and go back and re-listen to your 'entire' collection of audio material.....the ability of these speakers to image and accurately reproduce sound is really very good. Listening to vocals and unamplified instruments is a joy. The worry about not getting the ribbon tweeter is not an issue with me, although I was  concerned.

Its time to slow down, spend some time just listening and enjoying the music again!!

All the Best
Alex

PS: Specail thanks to Jim and Dennis and all the gang that signed the Birth Certificate!! You make a wonderful product!!






bigbwb

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #41 on: 20 Feb 2009, 01:40 am »
Alex,

Great first impression.  I would love to see some good pics of the satin blacks if you can considering I ordered the same :drool:

Now get back to some good music on your ST's.

Best wishes to your wife.

Brandon

adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #42 on: 20 Feb 2009, 02:20 am »
Brandon,

I will take some pictures this weekend, last night and late today I got to listen for about 3 hours and fiddled with the placement...even though the SongTowers are relatively forgiving as far as placement I am finding improvements in many areas by various tow-in angles and symetrical placement....I think my room angles might be a factor in my room.

As of tonight I think I have the placement nailed for me, I will put some painters tape on the carpet area and then will move the speakers so I can shoot some pix and post.

I will need some advice on how to post pix, I never have done this.

I am finding that the cd's that I bought earlier that I thought are ho-hum are superlative now....really amazing, these speakers are really a wonderful set of instruments that will allow you to explore your music in all its dimensions...

I could opine for hours but that would take time away from life, work and listening!!

Oh, I hope me being a semi-pro photographer (www.alexsgallery.com) my pix come out ok!!!  aa

All the best
Alex

JerryM

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #43 on: 20 Feb 2009, 02:37 am »
I will need some advice on how to post pix, I never have done this.

Here ya' go: It's easy.  :thumb:

adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #44 on: 20 Feb 2009, 02:45 am »
Jerry!!

Awesome, and many thanks!

Alex

Gord_Toronto

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #45 on: 21 Feb 2009, 12:36 am »
Alex

Great photo gallery.  I never imagined that so much drama could be expressed in pictures of solitary flowers.  I loved them. 

Also, on many levels glad to hear of your good review for the ST's.  I'll receive mine in a week or so.

Gord

adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #46 on: 21 Feb 2009, 12:58 am »
Hey Gord,

Nice to hear from you again, and glad you liked my photos, they are a colaboration of my wifes and mine. She really likes flowers and this is my basic subject matter.
I have learned when you cant travel to all those neat places you have to look inwards for beauty, and the flowers and their structure is really neat when you take the time to look at them in detail....they make wonderful abstracts...

I think there is a corollary here with music as well  :D

I have taken some photos but are not happy with them at all, the speakers are in a dark room and the lighting does not do them justice, I guess I have to take one downstairs to photograph it in natural light...photos are all about the light.

You dont have a lot of time to wait for your speakers!!

Its going to be really awesome!! I anxiously await your  impressions!!

All the best
Alex

Nuance

Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #47 on: 21 Feb 2009, 02:29 am »
Alex,

That was an amazing write-up man.  Well done!  I really enjoyed it.  :)

My prayers are with you and your wife.  I hope she rests well and feels better soon.

I look forward to your pictures.   8)

adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #48 on: 21 Feb 2009, 03:59 am »
Hey Nuance...

Thanks for the kind words!

I just got thru listening for a few hours and it was another eye opening experience...this is how 2 ch stereo ought to be...when the transducers repsond well, are accurate, snappy, smooth and just plain revealing....over and over and over. aa

I finally tonight got the toe in 'right' for me...funny it got down to 1/2" placement to get the soundstage in the right place in my room at my sweet spot. Yes it really made a difference and inch here or there....it wasnt hard to do, but it was more critical than I would have thought..but now its really spot on. No hole in the middle and just a nice wide coherent soundstage... :D

Now its just listening and smiling....some of my older cds from Spyrogyra are terrible as far as modern recordings what a dissapointment, even though the music is fine, the tonality is vastly improved in the instruments but the recording sounds compressed and amped up on the high end.

Ok for now..be good

Alex




Rocket

Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #49 on: 21 Feb 2009, 05:37 am »
Hi Alex,

I wouldn't be too worried about the lack of ribbon tweeter.  The hiquophon tweeter is a very good quality dome tweeter.

Glad you like the speaker Jim is really good to deal with.

Regards

Rod

ps I'll try to get motivated and post in your music cd thread.  I know how you feel about quality recordings.  I don't have many to refer to.

adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #50 on: 21 Feb 2009, 06:47 pm »
Ok I just figured out how to do the picture thing...heres what SongTowers look like in the Black Satin Finsh.
Its a semi-matte look, very professional and classy when seen in person.

Alex


adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #51 on: 21 Feb 2009, 07:21 pm »
OK here are a few more:









These 2 pix are terrible as far as quality but it give you an idae of the room and placement. The display is a 58" plasma.





All the best!!

Alex

Mag

Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #52 on: 21 Feb 2009, 09:29 pm »
Very nice room and setup you have there! I bet it sounds as good as you say.

I'm tempted to try Salk speakers myself, but it's out of the question to change my speaker setup. I could go with 2 Song Towers in the corners of my MC setup, but fear they would not timbre match my Paradigms or perhaps they are more revealing and would draw attention to their location.

Sun_N_H2O

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #53 on: 21 Feb 2009, 10:03 pm »
adydula,
Congratulations on the new addition to the family! :thumb: glad you are happy with the new ST's and are enjoying them.

I know you have more important things to deal with (I have been dealing with a similar issue with my girlfriend for the last year and 8 months), but if/ when you get a chance, can you measure the depth of the plinth (base) and post it? One of your pictures shows the width of the plinth at 10", I need to know the depth as well. The Salk site seems to only give the box dimensions. I could make some assumptions and guess 13.5", but I'd like to know for sure....

Maybe Nuance or someone else with ST's could post it otherwise?

Thanks for the help & best wishes for you and your wife!

tgp06

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #54 on: 21 Feb 2009, 10:18 pm »
The plynth on my Songtower is 10" wide by 15" deep...a bit more reveal behind the box than on the front or sides.Spaced the same on front and sides.

tgp06

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #55 on: 21 Feb 2009, 10:27 pm »
Actually, I just remeasured...7/8" on the front,1" on each side and 2-7/8" behind(on one speaker).The other is 1" on the front and sides and 2-3/4" behind!The difference is due to my poor eyesight when installing the bases.Jim leaves a bit of room for adjustment.Guess I'll have to actually measure next time!

Sun_N_H2O

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #56 on: 22 Feb 2009, 01:01 am »
Thanks for checking on the plinth depth for me.....my current speakers and TV are shoved in a corner between a fire place and a window and unfortunately the sizes of these things matter at the moment  :(

tgp06

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #57 on: 22 Feb 2009, 01:27 am »
You know, Jim specializes in custom work...it would be easy to design a shorter plinth(10" wide by 13-1/4" to 13-3/8''deep) so the reveal would be 1" on all sides. Maybe lose some front to rear stability, but it certainly would work. Save you at least 1-5/8" in depth, if it's that critical. The Songtowers work better when close to the wall than most speakers, but I would consider 8" from the wall a minimum(more if you can get it). Someone may have better experience on this...8" is as close as I have tried. The bass did not get "boomy".

adydula

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Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #58 on: 22 Feb 2009, 01:36 am »
Hello Everyone!

Good to see some posters in this thread!

I see you have the measurements for the plinth. Great.

Sun_N_H20 thanks for the kind wishes its been a 5+ year battle for us, and you take it one day at a time. My best wishes for your girlfirend.

Mag,

I will calibrate the SongTowers into the HT tomorrow with an Audessy setup and let you know how they blend in with the non-Salk speakers. Audessy does a nice job for me to make the HT part really sound multi-dimensional.

The room to me is small and I always thought that it would be very difficult to be able to really have a great listening experience in it. It does have some angled ceilings etc and it changes on the listening end as well... The Audessy Calibration in the Onkyo 805 has made the world of difference doe the HT part, but when I listen to 2 ch stereo there is no Audessy or DSP stuff going on.

I have been extremely pleased at what the SongTowers allow me to do in this room. Its indeed magical at times. I just can imagine if the room was 'better' and I had a larger set of SALK speakers!! Hahahaa...but that is not going to happen...the room is just too small for anything larger than these speakers.

I am so HAPPY that Jim decided to make these speakers because they are the answer to my dreams .....its allowed me to re-examine all my music and de-stress from all of lifes crappy stuff!! aa


I just got done listening for about 2 hours straight, thanks to some of the posters I have 4 of Jim's Demo cd's and have finally got thru them all. What an adventure..I am going to help the economy out by buying several new artists material.

I would like to share another observation:

I have listened to the 'good' stuff and have been awe'd and amazed. ok but what about the stuff I have in my collection over the years. Well
I listened to the second album of Spyrogyra CD called "Morning Dance" which turned out to be a dissapointment and a surprise. The disappointment was the recoding was compressed, kind of flat and really bright....almost objectionally so. But the sound quality of the sax and instruments was really a whole lot better than before ( older speakers). I am hoping the later CDs of Spyrogyra are better mastered and recorded...time will tell.

Another CD. one of the 'Greatest Hit's' type which are usually not that well recorded was, America, The complete Greatest Hits Compilation"  22 songs!! The recording was above average, but not near the quality of the better stuff for sure.

BUT

The SongTowers accuracy, ability to hear subtle details, and the tonality made this Greatest Hits CD worth listening to!! I listen to most of the 22 songs and was amazed at the detail, clarity etc...

It seems that these speakers in my room allow me to "look inside" the recording studio to "see" whats going on ...I call this 'sonic surgery'...the SongTowers are like sonic scaples that allow you to hear the fabric of the music your listening to..good and bad.

Jim doesnt pay me to say good things about these speakers, they just are really, really good. Yes there are other speakers that play as well but they dont have the love that Jim and the elves put into theses....at a fair price.

I hope



Mag

Re: Joining the Club
« Reply #59 on: 22 Feb 2009, 03:40 am »
From your previous post, I understand that your room is 20'x16' a good sized room. I have a room similar to that, and it doesn't take much volume to have the sound bouncing off the walls. I think for that reason it is good acoustically but easily overloaded.

The room that I use is long and narrow. I could not get 2 channel to image properly. I found that the more speakers I added the better it sounded and has evolved to the present configuration that you can see in the MC Home Theater thread.

I use the YPAO on my Yamaha which I didn't have previously and it really balanced out the soundstage. The biggest improvement came from sitting on the remote which activated the Enhancer. I like the body and harmonics that the Enhancer adds to the music that I haven't been able to listen without it.

I think that 2 channel enthusiasts would object to the imaging I get with MC stereo at first. But if they could spend the time to adjust to it, about 2 weeks, they would prefer it. Mind you I never really experienced a good 2 channel setup. At my girlfriends place with an unbalance speaker placement there was this beautiful phantom image in the center of the room. My MC stereo achieves that in a different manner in that the center channel places the image dead center without the phantom image.

2 channel MC doesn't matter. What matters is finding that elite sound which comes at fairly hefty price tag. Once you've heard and experienced it  you can no longer be content with mid-fi, if you're an audiophile that is.