AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: rippolito on 2 Jan 2021, 12:50 am
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I have read that one of the disadvantages of a power conditioner is that they can prevent a power amplifier from receiving all the current it is asking for, thus preventing the music from achieving its full dynamic range. For this reason, I have also read many posts in various forums to plug the power amplifier directly into a wall outlet, instead of one of the outlets in the conditioner.
In your experience, is this true, and if so, can someone please explain how the conditioner limits the current?
Thank you, in advance...
Ron
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In my case not, I guess you just need to get a power conditioner that can deliver a lot more than your power amp needs.
In my case I use a regenerator not a conditioner. The regenerator delivers far more current than what my system needs, hence the power amp is not limited by the regenerator. I run the whole of my system on the regenerator, I just calculated the maximum draw of everything in my system before I bought a regenerator. I bought something that gives my system everything it needs and then some more power in reserve, so in my case I have room for expansion should I need it.
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The PC circuit have a current limit if it reach max usually there is a circuit braker or fuse tô prevent disaster.
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Aside from the actual physics of whether or not conditioners limit current delivery, you'll never get a consensus from a group of audiophiles as to whether or not conditioners and regenerators are a positive when used between the wall outlet and amplifier. I've read more negative comments about power conditioners than power regenerators when used with amps (assuming adequate current delivery from the regenerator.) That said, every system and listener is different. Use what works best for you and don't worry about what someone else's experiences have been. I had to try several combinations of conditioners and regenerators to find what worked best for my system and I imagine that's the case for most. The one brand of power conditioner I'm hard pressed to recall hearing a negative comment about are those from High Fidelity Cables that plug into adjacent outlets as opposed to being inline with the amplifier. I've read comments from those who felt they'd gone overboard and bought too many of them, but everyone I've ever known who tried their products liked what they did for their system.
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They can. There are times when amps are changing power supply caps, and when musical peaks can demand far more current input than steady state ratings. If the conditioner is not up to handling it the sound output suffers.
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Depends on which brand of PC. Some offer High Current outlets others do not. Do your homework.
charles
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Depends on which brand of PC. Some offer High Current outlets others do not. Do your homework.
charles
Charles,
When a power conditioner has 'high current' outlets, do you know what they do differently than the other outlets?
Ron
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Depends on which brand of PC. Some offer High Current outlets others do not. Do your homework.
charles
In my limited experience, the presence of high current outlets hasn't guaranteed improvement vs. the wall. My PS Audio Stellar P3 regenerator has high current outlets (those are not supplied with regenerated power) and my BHK250 amp still sounds better direct into the wall outlet. However, the regenerator improves the sound of all the front end components greatly. I'd also tried a Shunyata MPC12a conditioner in the past with the BHK250, same story - sounded better directly into wall. Same story with my 30 watt per channel Decware ZenTorii amp, sounds better direct into the wall than through any of the six conditioners/regenerators I've tried. I do read posts from many listeners who say the big PS Audio regenerators are an improvement over the wall with their amps but I've not tried one of those.
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PS Audio, BPT, Shunyata, Audio Magic, High Fidelity, Audience, Furutech, Emotiva, Exact Power, Cullen, MIT, Richard Gray, Furman, Synergistic Research, Bybee, Acoustic Revive, Nordost, Silver Circle, Monster, Panamax, TrippLite, Topaz, Running Springs, Inakustik, and CorePower are the brands I recall trying over the years.
Anything with a transformer, unless it was really large, limited amp current. A Class A or AB amp has a tranny and if it is trying to draw current and is choked by a smaller tranny between it and the wall, then you have a limiting situation.
Passives are great if they can really do the cleaning they purport. Many of us have tried passives on amps and more actives on front ends with decent results. I've never owned a Shunyata that actually cleaned up the juice but I love their digital cable. The best actives I owned 3 times were BPT and Silver Circle (once). I make my own high fidelity units and they are literally running the juice through the magnet. Interesting but not a real cleaning machine per se. In the end everyone is stuck with chokes, caps, filters, clamping devices, crystals, fairy dust ROCHELLE SALT (potassium sodium tartrate), etc. like everyone else. And they also contribute a degree of choking. I have great power coming out of my wall so little work is required on that end other than system generated noise.
You need a device that solves your problem. Voltage fluctuations, brownouts, poor grounding, high frequency noise, motor noise, fluorescent light noise, etc.
Inakustik was the king for me until I tried the Puritan and now I am done. Everything except my server is through the Puritan.
Next house, next electrical; problem could mean a different solution. Go passive if you can unless you have a very small amp or buy very large active unit.
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Remember -- there's always trade-offs. If you want protection, then don't worry so much about current limiting power conditioners. Besides, ALL manufacturers will claim their product isn't current limiting, so who are you gonna believe?
I'm been through several power conditioners. Like cables, just find one that does the least harm. I use Zenwave's modded SurgeX and it works great. With that being said, I'm interested in the trying the Puritan because it's the only one I've seen that shows measurable results that are supported by strong customer reviews.
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PS Audio, BPT, Shunyata, Audio Magic, High Fidelity, Audience, Furutech, Emotiva, Exact Power, Cullen, MIT, Richard Gray, Furman, Synergistic Research, Bybee, Acoustic Revive, Nordost, Silver Circle, Monster, Panamax, TrippLite, Topaz, Running Springs, Inakustik, and CorePower are the brands I recall trying over the years.
Anything with a transformer, unless it was really large, limited amp current. A Class A or AB amp has a tranny and if it is trying to draw current and is choked by a smaller tranny between it and the wall, then you have a limiting situation.
Passives are great if they can really do the cleaning they purport. Many of us have tried passives on amps and more actives on front ends with decent results. I've never owned a Shunyata that actually cleaned up the juice but I love their digital cable. The best actives I owned 3 times were BPT and Silver Circle (once). I make my own high fidelity units and they are literally running the juice through the magnet. Interesting but not a real cleaning machine per se. In the end everyone is stuck with chokes, caps, filters, clamping devices, crystals, fairy dust ROCHELLE SALT (potassium sodium tartrate), etc. like everyone else. And they also contribute a degree of choking. I have great power coming out of my wall so little work is required on that end other than system generated noise.
You need a device that solves your problem. Voltage fluctuations, brownouts, poor grounding, high frequency noise, motor noise, fluorescent light noise, etc.
Inakustik was the king for me until I tried the Puritan and now I am done. Everything except my server is through the Puritan.
Next house, next electrical; problem could mean a different solution. Go passive if you can unless you have a very small amp or buy very large active unit.
Ha, I was thinking of posting a similar message, listing all the power conditioners I've had over the years, virtually none of which did me any good. A great many of them are listed in your post above. Then I was going to add that based on faith I was going to try one of those Puritan units because of all the raving about them here on this forum. Based on my past experience, I have my doubts, but will give it a shot.
One unit I had which you didn't mention was EquiTech which started the rage for "balanced power" 20 or 25 years ago or so. That thing weighed a ton, and turned out to be nothing more than a glorified power strip, same as the other ones. I eventually took it out of the system and was walking down the hall to where I planned to put it in storage, tripped, dropped the thing and when it crashed onto the floor everything inside it came loose and rattled around. Picked it up, headed for the trash can, threw it in, and never regretted doing that. Good riddance for bad rubbish.
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I use two RM20 power conditioners from Torus power and find they have no impact on delivering power to the amps.
https://www.toruspower.com/product-ranges/
Best,
John
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I have a Shunyata Guardian on my Odyssey mono amps and I felt it made an improvement in clarity. My scientific-side thinks its because it uses a 20A plug and so is providing more power. OTOH, I have no idea about any of this stuff.
Oddly enough, the Guardian on my preamp and DAC seemed to add a veil.
I am also curious about the Puritan for my source and preamps.
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I have a Shunyata Guardian on my Odyssey mono amps and I felt it made an improvement in clarity. My scientific-side thinks its because it uses a 20A plug and so is providing more power. OTOH, I have no idea about any of this stuff.
Oddly enough, the Guardian on my preamp and DAC seemed to add a veil.
I am also curious about the Puritan for my source and preamps.
My scientific-side thinks its because it uses a 20A plug and so is providing more power.
Do you mean say 20A plug can generate more power?
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I have a Shunyata Guardian on my Odyssey mono amps and I felt it made an improvement in clarity. My scientific-side thinks its because it uses a 20A plug and so is providing more power. OTOH, I have no idea about any of this stuff.
Oddly enough, the Guardian on my preamp and DAC seemed to add a veil.
I am also curious about the Puritan for my source and preamps.
You can't get 20 amps out of a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp capable cable. Your 20 amp cable on a 15 amp circuit is just being extra cautious as it has the capability to handle higher amperage. Your circuit breaker is the limiter then. Even if you had a 20 amp circuit your 15 amp cable is okay because I doubt you would ever use more than 4 to 5 amps for your stereo anyways IME and measurements. If any of us is maxxing out our 15 or 20 amp cables we are in trouble, or putting on a rock concert with thousands of watts.
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Short answer: Yes they can.
Long Answer: Not all of them, and many that claim to be high current do.
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You can't get 20 amps out of a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp capable cable. Your 20 amp cable on a 15 amp circuit is just being extra cautious as it has the capability to handle higher amperage. Your circuit breaker is the limiter then. Even if you had a 20 amp circuit your 15 amp cable is okay because I doubt you would ever use more than 4 to 5 amps for your stereo anyways IME and measurements. If any of us is maxxing out our 15 or 20 amp cables we are in trouble, or putting on a rock concert with thousands of watts.
Thanks, one less thing to be audio nervosa about. The circuit in question does appear to be 20A (has a 20A socket) but the electrical in this house is weird.
Question: The power consumed will remain the same regardless of 15A cord into 20A circuit with adapter and or any variation thereof?
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Yes certainly.
What determine the power available tô your house is the power transformer from your condo or your street.
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Think you would be best off running your power amp direct to the wall with maybe a small Balanced Isolation Transformer (BIT) for your less power hungry equipment like your Phono Preamp, Music Server/CD player, etc.
My system sounded way better when I got rid of my PS Audio power conditioner as it did when I put a dedicated line in with a 20 amp (240 volt) circuit breaker with 27 amp rated shielded mains cable.
At the last HiFi show that I attended (late 2019) I specifically looked at people's stands and I did not see a single exhibitor running their power amps from a power conditioner!!!
All 'direct from the wall'!
Had some some interesting conversations with some of the exhibitors on the subject.
They wanted their gear to sound its best!
Just some thoughts.
Bruce
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Think you would be best off running your power amp direct to the wall with maybe a small Balanced Isolation Transformer (BIT) for your less power hungry equipment like your Phono Preamp, Music Server/CD player, etc.
My system sounded way better when I got rid of my PS Audio power conditioner as it did when I put a dedicated line in with a 20 amp (240 volt) circuit breaker with 27 amp rated shielded mains cable. some thoughts.
Bruce
FWIW, I would mention that in my and many others experience, previous versions of PS Audio regenerators are not comparable to current versions in terms of sound quality. My current version Stellar P3 imparts many more beneficial qualities to my front end than the earlier version PS Audio regenerator I had with balanced power output.
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I've never felt either of the conditioners I use limited dynamics in any way. (AQ 1200 and Audience Adept aR2p) That said, I don't use high power/high current solid state amps either. All tube amps 60 watts or below and a Schitt Vidar. Never felt dynamics were compromised and I've always preferred going thru a conditioner as opposed to straight to the wall. This is simply a case of doing an in-home audition/return option and decide for yourself. Every system, household wiring and quality of incoming power will be different. In the end, your system, your call.
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PS Audio, BPT, Shunyata, Audio Magic, High Fidelity, Audience, Furutech, Emotiva, Exact Power, Cullen, MIT, Richard Gray, Furman, Synergistic Research, Bybee, Acoustic Revive, Nordost, Silver Circle, Monster, Panamax, TrippLite, Topaz, Running Springs, Inakustik, and CorePower are the brands I recall trying over the years.
Anything with a transformer, unless it was really large, limited amp current. A Class A or AB amp has a tranny and if it is trying to draw current and is choked by a smaller tranny between it and the wall, then you have a limiting situation.
Passives are great if they can really do the cleaning they purport. Many of us have tried passives on amps and more actives on front ends with decent results. I've never owned a Shunyata that actually cleaned up the juice but I love their digital cable. The best actives I owned 3 times were BPT and Silver Circle (once). I make my own high fidelity units and they are literally running the juice through the magnet. Interesting but not a real cleaning machine per se. In the end everyone is stuck with chokes, caps, filters, clamping devices, crystals, fairy dust ROCHELLE SALT (potassium sodium tartrate), etc. like everyone else. And they also contribute a degree of choking. I have great power coming out of my wall so little work is required on that end other than system generated noise.
You need a device that solves your problem. Voltage fluctuations, brownouts, poor grounding, high frequency noise, motor noise, fluorescent light noise, etc.
Inakustik was the king for me until I tried the Puritan and now I am done. Everything except my server is through the Puritan.
Next house, next electrical; problem could mean a different solution. Go passive if you can unless you have a very small amp or buy very large active unit.
I have been using the Richard Gray 1200 for many years but it has a high outward impedance and chokes. As do most.
I just went with a P.I. Audio UberBuss(with Neutrik 32A connector) which has hardly any outward impedance and a power factor correction of 1. And no surge suppression(getting a Seimens RS 140 installed at the breaker panel for whole house surge suppression.
That, with a Triode Wire Labs High Power Digital American with same Neutrik 32A connector into a 30A dedicated line. Enormous instantaneous power on demand!
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I have been using the Richard Gray 1200 for many years but it has a high outward impedance and chokes. As do most.
I just went with a P.I. Audio UberBuss(with Neutrik 32A connector) which has hardly any outward impedance and a power factor correction of 1. And no surge suppression(getting a Seimens RS 140 installed at the breaker panel for whole house surge suppression.
That, with a Triode Wire Labs High Power Digital American with same Neutrik 32A connector into a 30A dedicated line. Enormous instantaneous power on demand!
30 Amps is serious. I'm sure Tommy hooked you up! Sounds a serious attack on the topic and kudos for grabbing it by the balls!!!
BTW, weeks ago, pre-hospital stay, I did move my server to my Puritan. Can't say a got a bump, but I had the extra circuit so said what the heck and plugged it into the Puritan. Still one of the best system sounds I have had.
Covid kicked my ass and I'm on O2 recovering my lung capacity.
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Big Red:
Get well soon.
While I will state some are a waste of good air,
YOU ain't one of em.
Best of luck in your recovery.
Don
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30 Amps is serious. I'm sure Tommy hooked you up! Sounds a serious attack on the topic and kudos for grabbing it by the balls!!!
BTW, weeks ago, pre-hospital stay, I did move my server to my Puritan. Can't say a got a bump, but I had the extra circuit so said what the heck and plugged it into the Puritan. Still one of the best system sounds I have had.
Covid kicked my ass and I'm on O2 recovering my lung capacity.
Jeez. Hope you're doing well and get better.
The 12 outlet Puritan 1512 was my second choice after the UberBuss. There was no third choice.
My 30A dedicated line has a 20A hospital grade outlet(not a 30A receptacle!) that soon will be upgraded to P.I. Audio's UberPuerto 20A receptacle. There are DigiBuss receptacles in my UberBuss for my digital equipment.
Should be getting it in a week.
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Big Red:
Get well soon.
While I will state some are a waste of good air,
YOU ain't one of em.
Best of luck in your recovery.
Don
Thanks, Don. I was in very bad shape and now working my way back. Retraining my lungs. All the shit I gave about this virus last year came back to kick me in the face. I had fantastic hospital care. The Owensboro Covid ward had 47 beds available. Only 14 rooms being used right now as cases are way down. I'm generating my own anti-bodies.
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Thanks, Don. I was in very bad shape and now working my way back. Retraining my lungs. All the shit I gave about this virus last year came back to kick me in the face. I had fantastic hospital care. The Owensboro Covid ward had 47 beds available. Only 14 rooms being used right now as cases are way down. I'm generating my own anti-bodies.
Wow, bad news, but glad to hear you're coming out of it :o
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I have read that one of the disadvantages of a power conditioner is that they can prevent a power amplifier from receiving all the current it is asking for, thus preventing the music from achieving its full dynamic range. For this reason, I have also read many posts in various forums to plug the power amplifier directly into a wall outlet, instead of one of the outlets in the conditioner.
In your experience, is this true, and if so, can someone please explain how the conditioner limits the current?
Thank you, in advance...
Ron
In my case having an Isotek EVO3 SIGMAS connecting the Single ended 300B amplifiers to the high current outputs....dynamics were compressed a lot. The reason is that the series-impedance of the conditioner/filter is too high and is reducing the impluse-current drawn by the amplifier. Now the amplifiers are connected directly to mains again and the sources are connected via the Isotek
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Covid kicked my ass and I'm on O2 recovering my lung capacity.
Take care and take it easy also when things seem to be ok again after some time ..
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They certainly can. If the conditioner is a parallel mode device, wired across the AC lines, they should have no effect at all on power delivery. If it is wired in line, IE you plug it into the wall and then your devices into it, then if the series resistance is high it can limit power to devices that can draw large amounts of current like a large power amp.
This is easy enough to measure with relatively simple tools.
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Anything with a transformer, unless it was really large, limited amp current. A Class A or AB amp has a tranny and if it is trying to draw current and is choked by a smaller tranny between it and the wall, then you have a limiting situation.
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In regards to this, how do you feel about using one on a class-D amp? I currently have a my power amp connected to a furman and had in mind that the added caps and coil might give a a bit of stored energy. Even though class d doesn't really have different peak outputs.
Regarding my other devices, lower amperage, I'm trying to get them on battery/generated power.
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Charles,
When a power conditioner has 'high current' outlets, do you know what they do differently than the other outlets?
Ron
Transfer the power using higher gauge wire. Or 20A rated depending on design of PC.
charles
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In my limited experience, the presence of high current outlets hasn't guaranteed improvement vs. the wall. My PS Audio Stellar P3 regenerator has high current outlets (those are not supplied with regenerated power) and my BHK250 amp still sounds better direct into the wall outlet. However, the regenerator improves the sound of all the front end components greatly. I'd also tried a Shunyata MPC12a conditioner in the past with the BHK250, same story - sounded better directly into wall. Same story with my 30 watt per channel Decware ZenTorii amp, sounds better direct into the wall than through any of the six conditioners/regenerators I've tried. I do read posts from many listeners who say the big PS Audio regenerators are an improvement over the wall with their amps but I've not tried one of those.
Not the right conditioners. Not a fan of PS audio Regen. I prefer using a dedicated 20A line for each mono block. Adding a well designed PC to that even betters the sound in my system. Easy if it fits cool if not move on.
charles
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I'm a little late to the party but hey.
Conditioners can affect sound but there are a lot of variables. Most of the time you should not notice anything. I've used the Synergistic Research QLS6 and have good results but you have no protection. Equi=tech Q or Son of Q has been the best I have used, balanced power. Expensive though.
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Have followed my own advice!!
Have ordered a Torus PB4 AUS Balanced Isolation Transformer.
Should arrive soon but if our Premier gives us yet another lock down who knows.
Went for the Torus because they have the reputation of making the best transformers.
Glad I got rid of that PS Audio unit, my system has never sounded better.
Will admit though that I am expecting a sound improvement from the units plugged into it.
That's phono preamp, DVD player, CD/SACD player, turntable, and when it comes a Sugar Cube.
Will see how it goes.
Bruce
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I gotta give kudos to everyone on this thread and much respect for the civility on a topic that can be controversial. I’ll stick strictly to my own experience during the past dozen years or so of playing with power management equipment.
Bad news first: decent power conditioners that don’t limit amplifier current in any way are fairly expensive. So, unless one is willing to spend a considerable amount of money, all of the amplifiers I’ve ever used do their best at delivering instantaneous and dynamic peak current when plugged directly into a hospital grade or better wall socket and using a high quality after-market power cord.
The good news: If you’re willing to devote more of your budget to address current delivery, there are a variety of companies whose power conditioners do not limit current. The company I’m most familiar with is Shunyata Research. Specifically, their two-outlet Denali T2000 power distributor is equipped with technology (QR/BB) that is designed to meet the dynamic instantaneous current requirements of even the most demanding power amplifiers. The T2000 has been discontinued but used models can be found for relatively affordable prices. In lieu of that model, Shunyata’s more expensive Denali Version 2 and their flagship Everest model do not limit amplifier’s ability to deliver peak, instantaneous current in any way.
I should add that achieving an ultimate level of instantaneous peak current delivery shouldn’t necessarily be the most important priority in every system or context. The sonic payoff of devoting funds toward unfettered current delivery must be weighed against spending that money on noise reduction and other factors that may be affecting overall sound quality. Products that reduce noise without limiting current in any way are the holy grail in power management and you’ll pay accordingly for them.
Not trying to shill for a specific product here, just sharing my limited experience.
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I gotta give kudos to everyone on this thread and much respect for the civility on a topic that can be controversial. I’ll stick strictly to my own experience during the past dozen years or so of playing with power management equipment.
I agree with you and this is why I decided to become a member.
As for the noise issue you mentioned, this is 1 of the reasons I have become a fan of the Equi=tech Q. I'm not an electrician so I cannot get technical but they wrote the electrical code on balanced power. I'm not a tube guy but from what I understand, class A tube amps can be delicate to power noise and the Eqi=tech balanced power cleans it up. Aside from there products they have quite a bit useful information regarding power for audio systems. White papers and good information is free and available on there website, if you're going through a home rehab it's worth a read.
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This is an old article but good information.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/equitech-2q-balanced-transformer-6-2001.html
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Just received my Torus PB4 AUS.
Happy to have received it,
BUT ...
I could not hear any difference!
Will say that the Balanced Isolation Transformer itself was absolutely dead silent.
Only have my Opto DVD player, Halcro CD/SACD player & my refurbished Thorens TD 125 connected.
There may be some difference when I add a phono preamp & a Sugar Cube but really I am not too optimistic!
Actually I do find this mildly unusual because a few days before I swapped my Supra classic speaker cable with Mogami 3082 and I could hear a very definite improvement!
I guess that means that my mains power was as good as it was possible to get.
Well that is what I found.
Not what I expected but certainly what I found.
Something for us all to contemplate.
Bruce
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BUT ...
I could not hear any difference!
So if it has not worsened the situation it seems to be a well made audio acessory, the normal would be to worsen the supplied energy, which is what happened to me.
Actually I do find this mildly unusual because a few days before I swapped my Supra classic speaker cable with Mogami 3082 and I could hear a very definite improvement!
Do you are sure you hear a improvement or just hear a difference ?
In the past some times I hear a difference but was unable to say it was a improvement.
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The results are varied. I have enjoyed the amp on the Furman REF 20 conditioner with Furutech duplex installed, and off it. (the difference primarily cleaner treble with tighter bass, vs stronger more bloomy bass off) The main thing is does it sound better to me , or not. Currently my Amp is not plugged into a power conditioner. but it is on a dedicated line with a few PS Audio devices also plugged into that line.
MY focus is on quality of the sound, and a small lack of explosive dynamics is not even on my radar. But I thought I would toss in my half penny worth of drivel.