Get together

Tyson · « **Reply #20 on:** 19 Jul 2003, 05:34 pm »

No ME! That way I can ban Jason as my first display of power.

Pez · « **Reply #21 on:** 19 Jul 2003, 05:41 pm »

See that's precisely why I should be Fac. If Tyson speaks he's banned. Everyone's happy

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 04:55 am »

How did your get together go

And what was your drink of choice

Tyson · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 05:33 am »

The short of it (my perspective):

Napalm digital IC sounded good, but I thought the combo of my cryo'd digital cable w/inline bybee sounded a little better. Interestingly enough, when we put the inline bybee with the Napalm (giving 2 bybees in the signal path), the sound improved. But that's an expensive cable. I'm happy w/my current combo, but want to hear the Napalm after it's been cryo'd (which should smooth it out a bit, and bring it in line w/my current combo).

Jason's 8th nerve room treatment are great. They really take the room out of the picture. Jason's tubes from before the treatment were too soft sounding w/the treatment, IMO. The sound got close to perfect again when he switched in some other tubes that were more dynamic sounding.

The 626Rs w/Auricaps and spiral tweeters are a definite step up in sound over the non-auricaped version of the same speaker. When we moved up to the 626R's w/FST tweeter and auricaps, a lot of the little clues that let you know that you are listening to speakers were gone. It didn't sound like actual live music (no stereo can, IMO), but the sound just floated free of the speakers. Very nice. You do need to sit w/your ears lined up w/the tweeters for the best sound, unlike the 626R's w/the spiral tweeter, which sound best w/ears lined up with the mid panels.

The Art SLA-1 - it sounded terrible after replacing the tube amp. Mainly because the Radii is a pretty tough act to follow. The Art sounded thin, 2 dimensional, and lacking in dynamics. Lifeless. But, I do think it might have potential, because it did not have the graininess that most Solid State amps in this price range have.

And of course, we also listened to Wayne's new Teres (I was suprised he actually hauled it over to Jason's). The sound was very good, especially after Wayne put in the Hagerman phono preamp. At first I was a little hesitant to listen to the Teres, cause I don't need to be lusting after an expensive turntable right now. But honestly for my preferences, I like the sound of the digital cuts via the Mensa w/bybee a bit better than the Teres. My theory is that analogue has a particular "sound" that appeals to a lot of people, but not to me. . . Wayne did say that some parts of the Teres were still breaking in, so I'll have to listen again at some point, but I'm still amazed at the fact that the Mensa didn't give up anything in the "smoothness" department to a very high end turntable. I thought the Teres had a fuller midrange, but after A-B'ing, I think that the images were "too" big, and that the somewhat scaled down images via the DIO were actually more true to life.

But then again, I'm "used to" the sound of the DIO, since I listen to it everyday, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

bubba966 · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 05:40 am »

Quote from: Tyson

Napalm digital IC sounded good, but I thought the combo of my cryo'd digital cable w/inline bybee sounded a little better. Interestingly enough, when we put the inline bybee with the Napalm (giving 2 bybees in the signal path), the sound improved. But that's an expensive cable. I'm happy w/my current combo, but want to hear the Napalm after it's been cryo'd (which should smooth it out a bit, and bring it in line w/my current combo).

While an Ultra Cryo'd version of the Napalm will be a bit on the spendy side, that's what I'm waiting for.

The decision will be do I want to have all 3 of my digital's be Ultra Cryo'd Napalm's?...

Tyson, is your Cryo'd digital still equipped with the copper bullets, or do you have a silver bullet version yet?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 05:40 am »

What ... no scotch

Pez · « **Reply #26 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 06:57 am »

Yeah Tyson "forgot"

theborg · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 11:02 am »

Quote from: Pez

See that's precisely why I should be Fac. If Tyson speaks he's banned. Everyone's happy

You guys can arm-wrestle over who get to be tha Don

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=56

Jay S · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 01:29 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

Napalm digital IC sounded good, but I thought the combo of my cryo'd digital cable w/inline bybee sounded a little better. Interestingly enough, when we put the inline bybee with the Napalm (giving 2 bybees in the signal path), the sound improved. But that's an expensive cable. I'm happy w/my current combo, but want to hear the Napalm after it's been cryo'd (which should smooth it out a bit, and bring it in line w/my current combo).

To its advantage, the Napalm has less connectors since the bybee is hard wired. To its disadvantage, the bybee is in the middle of the cable rather than the more location at the 'output' end of the cable. Maybe the thing to do is to put the bybee at the end of the Napalm, which will "fit" assuming the buyers' other option is an inline bybee at the end of their digital cable.

Wayne, would it be feasible to put the bybee at the end of the Napalm? Would it require moe space at the back of a dac than if an inline bybee were being used, or maybe even less?

Jay S · « **Reply #29 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 01:34 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

I'll bring the Aberlour and the Macallans.

My next purchase will be a bottle of Macallan. I was going to get a bottle of Glenmorangie Sherry Wood Finish, then I read on www.scotchdoc.com that Macallan is finished in sherry wood casks.

I'll probably wait till I finish my bottle of Glenmorangie (I've got a couple more servings left). I opened a bottle of port this evening to tide me over till I get the Macallan.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #30 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 02:19 pm »

As usual, Tyson screwed up the listening sessions for everyone

He managed to get his car trapped in his apartment's garage. Denver Public Works is tearing up his street because they detected some low level radiation coming from the materials that were used in street construction way back when it was first built.

I had to drive out from the 'burbs to pick him up and shuttle him around on his errands: Go to the library to get some more CDs to copy, stop off for doughnuts. Then he had the gall to just buy enough for himself!!

I get him to Jason's places and he tells me the digital input to his Mensa is screwed up. I had to take it back and replace the jack before we could use it that day.

I brought over the two pairs of 626Rs, the SLA-1, my Teres 255, the step-up transformer, the Hagerman Bugle and various cables.

All of this galivanting set me back about 2 hours.

We first compared Tyson's cryoed Silver Bullet digital cable to the Napalm.
All of the digital grundge that was slightly present in the standard cable dropped away. I felt that bass was extended and tighter. Volcals were smoother. We added the Bybee to the standard cable and it was very close. I did like the bass extension of the Napalm more, but I did feel that with the addition of the Bybee, the cryo'ed cable was a touch smoother in the mids. I still like the highs of the Napalm.

We then added the Bybee to the Napalm and the back wall just disappeard. This is something I have heard before when two Bybees are added in series in a digital cable. There was an amazing depth to the soundstage. This is the combo we used for the rest of the session.

In comparing the speakers, it was a bit of a challenge to get them positioned the same and to set the levels the same.

The Auricap version with the spiral tweeter let through quite a bit more detail and transients. Before this change, Tyson was dissing Jason's tube amp as being too soft and smoothing out the signal. When we changed speakers, Tyson said, "Now this is more like what I am used to at home."

This brings me to a point that became clearer as the afternoon went on. A music system is comprised of MANY parts. The part that MAY be causing a change or difference in sound from what you are used to, may not be the obvious one. In this case, Tyson was blaming tubes for the soft sound he heard, but it was actually the capacitors in the speakers.

We then put on the FST and Auricap pair of 626Rs. The sound was much sweeter. Jason thought there was less transient detail in the mids. Tyson started playing around with positioning of the speakers and seat position. He tried different pillows under his butt to raise his ear position. After about 15 minutes of squirming about he was satisifed. Jason sat down and said all his problems with the sound had been taken care of.

Another point to make is that position of speakers, including speaker height in relation to your chair is also important. If you are going to use a set of speakers on stands, measure your seated height at ear level and get your stands to position your speakers to match YOUR level.

We then quickly added in the SLA-1 amp. It really was no contest to the Radii. There was a muted sound to it. Very slow dynamics. Considering it sells stock for about 10% of the cost of the Radii, it really wasn't too bad. I would say it is probably better sounding than the first stock LeAmps with the coupling caps in them. In it's stock form I think the SLA-1 is a good candidate to be paired with something like the nOrh 3.0s for a bedroom system. The amp is very inexpensive and doesn't commit any gross errors in sound. It does have the level controls on it so it could be used as an intergrated amp. What I heard did convince me to hold onto it and try some part changes.

Hauling the Teres over was interesting. We had heard Chris Brady's 255 Teres in Jason's system before. He was using about $6,000.00 worth of tonearm and cartridge with it. He also brought down his custom phono stage. My Shelter 501 MK2 had about 4 hours on it and I had not completely finished setting it up. Still, I thought it was fun to compare a $4,000.00 analog rig to a $4,000.00 digital one. Including the retail price of the Sony XA-777ES, the Art DI/O, The Mensa Plus mods, The NITRO Bybee power supply, the Napalm digial cable and the Bybee RCA adaptor, it all added up to $4325.00

My Teres 255 kit in Monkeywood goes for $2550. The tonearm (Expressimo modified RB-250) $465, Shelter 501 MK2 $800, Battery power supply for Teres motor $110. K&K Audio step-up transformer $200.00. Total $4140.00

We first listened to the Teres through the phono section of the Radii preamp, which is all tube. Then I added in the Hagerman Bugle. There was quite an improvement. The mids were far more natural, bass extended deeper and the highs were smoother. Not bad for op-amps

I played a few songs from a variety of albums. Jason was entranced by the vinyl, Tyson was sceptical. I thought it sounded wonderful. I do need to let the cartridge break-in more and I found out yesterday my VTA was off. I do need to spend some serious tweak time with the arm and a variety of albums to dial it in. Overall I am very satisfied with the sound I am getting with the short amount of time I have had it.

It was about 7:00 pm by then and I was late for dinner and an evening with the family. It was also VERY hot at Jason's with no AC or swamp cooler working. I packed up all my toys and left the DAM playground for the last time.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #31 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 02:34 pm »

Jay,

I am not too sure that the position of the Bybee on the cable has as much to do with the way it sounds as does the fact of using two of them in series.

As you have two, perhaps you can experiment a bit. You can try one at the source or one at the load end and see which sounds better to you. You can also try two at the load and two at the source and see what, if any, difference there may be. One thing is that the Bybee is a bit sensitive to signal direction. If the adaptor is broken in, in one direction, and then you reverse it the sound will be different for about a week.

Try all the different permutations and let us know

I can build the Napalm with the Bybee placed anywhere. I intially chose the middle for ergonomic reasons. In some systems, there is not a lot of room behind the components. It made more sense to me to allow more flex at the component ends of things. The Bybee also adds a fair amount of unsupported weight to the Bullet plugs. I am trying to prevent any damage that might occur if a component is shoved back into a wall behind it.

Quite honestly, the Naplam is still in prototype form. It can be built any way you wish. The Ultra version with two Bybees, each spaced about 1/3 way along the cable and cryo treated, would be something special. It would also cost over $300.00

peakrchau · « **Reply #32 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 11:03 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

...The Art SLA-1 - it sounded terrible after replacing the tube amp. Mainly because the Radii is a pretty tough act to follow. The Art sounded thin, 2 dimensional, and lacking in dynamics. Lifeless. But, I do think it might have potential, because it did not have the graininess that most Solid State amps in this price range have....

Quote from: Wayne1

...We then quickly added in the SLA-1 amp. It really was no contest to the Radii. There was a muted sound to it. Very slow dynamics.

...The amp is very inexpensive and doesn't commit any gross errors in sound. It does have the level controls on it so it could be used as an intergrated amp. What I heard did convince me to hold onto it and try some part changes. ...

Wayne/Tyson,

It seems like the SLA-1 was not the giant killer in "your" system. I found it to be very sensitive to absolute phase and had arrived at remarkably similar statements/conclusions/results that you made above after auditioning the amp. In my case, I not only swapped out a tube amp, but also a passive preamp, for the SLA-1 ....tube letdown ???...Well, the results from a second return listening session were quite different when the "absolute phase" was changed at the speaker end of things.

A couple of questions:
<ol>
<li> Did you use the stock power chord ? If not...what ?
<li> Did you try it as a single input integrated amplifier with the DI/O connected directly into the SLA-1 ?
<li> Did you try flipping the absolute phase at the speaker end ?
<li> Did you use the balanced XLR inputs or the phone jack inputs with RCA adapters ?
</ol>

I'll look forward to your comments after making some "part changes"...any comments as to where you will start ?

P.S. Could you give it a quick listen with the absolute phase inverted from what you had last time and comment back ?

Tyson · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 12:06 am »

Well, we could give the SLA a try in my setup, I know that phase is not inverted by any of my upstream equipment.

To answer your questions:

1. I believe the a Nitro power cord was used.

2. No

3. No

4. There were adapters used, but I can't remember if it was the XLR or phono inputs that were adapted.

I also wanted to follow up a bit w/more impressions of the Auricapped 626R's with the spiral tweeters. They were certainly more dynamic and transparent than the stock crossover, and the whole presentation of music was a lot better. I still think Jason's system sounded soft with the tubes he had in there, but it was much better than w/the stock 626R's. When Jason later replaced the tubes, the sound reached a very high level. But the FST tweetered 626R's were just way better, IMO. Sweet and effortless, with good dynamics and great transparency.

I think the Napalm digital cable will match the smoothness of my setup, once it has been cryo'd. At that point the Napalm is definitely the "high end" cable that matches the performance of the Bybee'd Nitro's. The regular digital cable is in the M80 category of great bang/buck. I'd like to do another test once a Cryo'd Napalm is available.

Also wanted to follow up on the Mensa/Teres comments. To my ears, the most common failing w/digital is a certain hash and hardness to the presentation, combined with what I can only describe as a lack of "continuity". Very good digital can deal with the hash/hardness, and I've heard digital setup that are very smooth. But the "continuity" was not something I ever heard any digital do right (not by the Mensa, not by the SN tubedac, not by the 777ES, not by the Accuphase DP-65, not by the Levinson). It was only when I added a bybee filter inline w/the digital signal that this "continuity" was achieved with digital. Now, when we A-B'd the Mensa and Teres, the Mensa w/bybee did not sound "digital". It sounded smooth, coherent, and continuous.

Basically, what I'm saying is that to my ears, the "big" advantage that vinyl normally would have (ie, not sounding "digital") is obviated by the use of the bybee digital filter. So, now you can get a more "analogue" presentation, but without the traditional drawbacks of vinyl. So, the choice is no longer a qualitative one (vinyl is better than digital), but one of taste and preference ("I like the warmer/more human mids of vinyl" or "I like the more focused and precise mids of digital"). For me, I like the Mensa/bybee combo. Even when Chris Brady had his super duper Teres over to Jason's a while back, even back then I felt that digital did certain things better (like focus, transients, midbass, dynamics), but that analogue did other things better (imaging, midrange smoothness, palpable imaging). But w/the Mensa/Bybee combo, those areas are improved on a LOT. I'd still give the nod to the Teres in those specific areas, but its a small gap, and the Mensa/Bybee still rules in the focus/transients/midbass/dynamics areas.

JMHO, but there it is.

eric the red · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 05:23 am »

Interesting. When the le amp first was introduced by the manufacturer a few years ago, it was touted by the company's owner as beating the pants off amplifiers costing xxxx times as much, when in reality it sounds more like an off the shelf 200.00 pro amp. Biased hype rules in this hobby IMO.

bubba966 · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 05:48 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

Quite honestly, the Naplam is still in prototype form. It can be built any way you wish. The Ultra version with two Bybees, each spaced about 1/3 way along the cable and cryo treated, would be something special. It would also cost over $300.00.

Hmmm.

I wonder if 2 Bybees (directly connected with no coax inbetween) placed towards the receiving end of the cable with say 4-6" or so of coax between the Bybees & plug on the receiving end would the best overall solution.

That way the Bybees aren't right at the input of the processor. The 4-6" should be enough cable to allow it to bend enough to get into tighter areas behind ones equipment. Kinda like the placement of the digital filter on that Monster M2000 S-Vid.

And wouldn't the lack of anything between the 2 Bybees be a good idea? I seem to recall Dan W stating on HD something about running 2 Bybees directly in series works great.

Based on your listening tests over the weekend, an Ultra Cryo'd Napalm sounds like it'll be killer.

And Wayne, if you ever get tired of hearing my little hairbrained ideas for the Napalm, just say so...

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #36 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 03:53 pm »

Isn't Bybee coming out with a built-in Bybeed Eichmann? I think i saw these on some website (pricey though). If that's the case, you can use this connector with another Bybee at the end--effectively then 2 Bybees but with less bend problems.