How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?

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glfrancis

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How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« on: 20 Aug 2021, 09:27 pm »
It isn't a question about the speakers being able to handle the power. Just more of an issue where there is so much gain that the volume knob can barely be turned. My room is only 13.5 x 19 x 8 feet and I dont listen at rock concert volumes. my ears are already bad enough. Still planning the x5 purchase. I already have a Yamaha a-s801, but looking at upgrade options. I like what I read about the modwright 225i integrated, but wonder if that would be too much for my situation. also considering linear tube audio, but was liking what I was reading about the modwright. would the volume be more usable on a linear tube integrated?

geerock

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #1 on: 20 Aug 2021, 10:30 pm »
glfrancis
You'll be leaving an awful lot of music on the table with the Yamaha. You will certainly he jumping into a whole new league with both LTA or Modwright (and many others).  I think that LTA with that very special David Berning designed circuitry is really something special.  And if you're thinking of the 10 be advised that Clayton actually went to the shows with an LTA 10 and was always a hit.  And dont let the 13 watts of the 10 scare you off.  With 97 sensitivity, and considering it only has to drive the mid and upper ranges, you have plenty of juice.  I've had a lot of equipment pass through my hands in my life and the X5's with the Don Sach preamp and LTA Reference 40 amp is the finest sounding setup I've had.  If you like Modwright those guys over there build some very nice equipment.  My nephew has a 100se or something like that (the upgraded 100) and he loves it.  Nice sounding system he has.  Anyway...best of luck on the wait and in choosing your amp.
All the best and happy listening.

glfrancis

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #2 on: 20 Aug 2021, 11:44 pm »
Thank you. I have been pleased with my a-s801. that is a reason why I am setting my sites so high when I upgrade. I was considering either the LTA ultralinear or zotl40. wish I could order both and keep the one that I liked more. Not sure if the people at lta would want to do that. I like to hear detail and a well defined soundstage. I have no doubt about the power. 10 watts is enough for 97 db speakers. some  of the reviews that I read make me wonder if the modwright would be better for that. Or I could buy an lta amp and use my gold note ds10 as a preamp. But 1st step...the x5

geerock

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #3 on: 21 Aug 2021, 01:01 am »
glfrancis
I'm glad to hear you are considering the Reference and Ultralinear.  They are a real nice step up from the 10.  Better parts, better build, and to me the EL34 power tubes are the sweetest.  And the Mullard NOS are a great EL34.  I've had both the 10 and the 40 and the 3d image and huge soundstage are incredible.
Heres a write up someone did from this forum if you want some reading on LTA.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177067.0

Desertpilot

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #4 on: 21 Aug 2021, 01:02 am »
It isn't a question about the speakers being able to handle the power. Just more of an issue where there is so much gain that the volume knob can barely be turned. My room is only 13.5 x 19 x 8 feet and I dont listen at rock concert volumes. my ears are already bad enough. Still planning the x5 purchase. I already have a Yamaha a-s801, but looking at upgrade options. I like what I read about the modwright 225i integrated, but wonder if that would be too much for my situation. also considering linear tube audio, but was liking what I was reading about the modwright. would the volume be more usable on a linear tube integrated?

I'm not sure if I am reading your concern correctly.  I have the X3s.  My amplifier is the Parasound Halo A52+ (solid state) with 180 watts per channel, all channels driven, in to 8 Ohms.  I have never had an issue with volume control.  I use my Android Pad as a remote and the volume slider provides me with full range control.  In other words, I am very comfortable moving the slider up and down with no issues.

Marcus

glfrancis

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #5 on: 21 Aug 2021, 01:21 am »
I'm not sure if I am reading your concern correctly.  I have the X3s.  My amplifier is the Parasound Halo A52+ (solid state) with 180 watts per channel, all channels driven, in to 8 Ohms.  I have never had an issue with volume control.  I use my Android Pad as a remote and the volume slider provides me with full range control.  In other words, I am very comfortable moving the slider up and down with no issues.

Marcus

I appreciate the idea of having a clean, powerful amp running the speakers. I'm just concerned that (incorrectly?) That if I get too much gain/power, I will barely be able to adjust the volume before it is too loud. Or would this even happen? never had speakers this efficient. If the volume goes 1-10 (for example), I don't want 1 to be listenable and 2 to already be too loud. In my head, I am making sense, even if I am not stating it well. Thank you for your help

Tyson

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #6 on: 21 Aug 2021, 01:30 am »
You can't really have too much power, but you can have too much gain.

glfrancis

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #7 on: 21 Aug 2021, 01:44 am »
You can't really have too much power, but you can have too much gain.

I'll have to research this more. Thank you. I'll return to my headphones now

doggie

Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #8 on: 21 Aug 2021, 01:20 pm »
"You can't really have too much power, but you can have too much gain."

+1.

It is the overall system gain that will determine where you end up with your volume nob/control. Having 97db speakers will exacerbate that. Power/wattage determines the ability of your amp provide current to follow changes in the music dynamic demand. For most listening with efficient speakers you will only be using the first few watts unless you are listening to exceedingly dynamic music.


Tyson

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #9 on: 21 Aug 2021, 05:16 pm »
Yes, any hum/noise in your system will also be exacerbated by high efficiency speakers.  It's one of the reasons I run PS Audio P5's in both of my systems - they dramatically cut down on noise/hum in my systems.  Just for a reference, I have the GR Research Super 7's in my downstairs system (97db) and the hotrodded Klipsch Forte IIIs in my upstairs system (99db).  And soon I will have the Spatial X3's (97db), replacing the Forte's in my living room system.

Now, you might ask "well, that all seems a bit fussy, is it really worth it?".  IME, hell yes it's worth it.  There's a dynamic life and energy that high efficiency speakers bring to the table that no other speaker type can match.  You kind of have to hear it to believe how awesome it is.  So any amount of fussiness with noise and component matching is MORE than made up for by the incredible sound quality you get in return.

genjamon

Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #10 on: 21 Aug 2021, 07:29 pm »
I don't have the Spatials, but I do have speakers with high 90's dB sensitivity.  And my Don Sachs preamp run at full gain into my Odyssey Kismet stereo amp (32dB of gain) has precisely the problem you're afraid of.  The first click of the volume knob is plenty loud, and after that it gets a bit out of control.  Luckily, my older version of the Don Sachs preamp has the gain control knobs, so I can dial back the preamp gain to match the amp, which also has the added benefit of minimizing the ground loop hum I get between the preamp and amp. 

Many if not most amps are designed to around 26 dB of gain.  But some amps juice it up a bit more, for example the Odyssey and also my TV system's Nuforce STA-200 amp (based on the Job/Goldmund circuit).  On the other hand, First Watt amps are often somewhere between 10-20 dB.  I tried the F7 a few years ago, and couldn't make it work in my system because my preamp at the time only had 9dB of gain and the amp only had 14 dB of gain, amounting to only 23 dB of total system gain.  Even with volume maxed out, it wasn't loud enough with my 96 dB speakers at the time to produce satisfyingly realistic volume in my large-ish room. 

What I'm hinting at with the above is that there's a reasonably estimable range of overall system gain that you should shoot for.  Probably something like the range of 30-40 dB, given the 97 dB speakers you're dealing with.  My guess is a passive preamp and a 26 dB amp *might* be enough if you don't like to listen at "live" volumes.  But I wouldn't want to bank on that unless you have experience to know that it's enough for you.  And likewise, I'm pretty confident a 12+ dB preamp and a 32 dB amp (44 dB total) would be too hot for those speakers and would result in what you fear in your original posts here.  So, I personally would shoot somewhere in the lower- or mid-30's dB for total system gain given your stated moderate listening volumes.  And having a preamp or amp where you can adjust gain would of course be very helpful to fine-tuning.

JackD

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #11 on: 21 Aug 2021, 07:55 pm »
With an integrated amp like the Modwright and LTA's you are looking at the question of too much gain will depend on how the volume control is implemented.  There is a least one 225i and Spatial user on the forum and Michael of Tweek Geek runs the 225i and Spatial X series in his showroom so there doesn't appear to be a problem with the implementation.  For example I have owned both the original and newest version of the very favorably reviewed Kinki EX-M1 integrated.  In the newest version they changed the volume control implementation due to owners having to much gain for speakers over 90 db.  This was done by changing both the type and steps on the newer control to allow much greater flexibility as to speaker choice. I'm pretty sure if you reach out to Dan or Michael they can answer you questions.

doggie

Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #12 on: 21 Aug 2021, 10:34 pm »
With an integrated amp like the Modwright and LTA's you are looking at the question of too much gain will depend on how the volume control is implemented.  There is a least one 225i and Spatial user on the forum and Michael of Tweek Geek runs the 225i and Spatial X series in his showroom so there doesn't appear to be a problem with the implementation.  For example I have owned both the original and newest version of the very favorably reviewed Kinki EX-M1 integrated.  In the newest version they changed the volume control implementation due to owners having to much gain for speakers over 90 db.  This was done by changing both the type and steps on the newer control to allow much greater flexibility as to speaker choice. I'm pretty sure if you reach out to Dan or Michael they can answer you questions.

Newer versions of the three LTA Integrated amps have an adjustment for gain to help with your matching speakers. Older versions can be retrofitted for the newer volume control board.

glfrancis

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #13 on: 24 Aug 2021, 01:16 am »
Looking at some numbers, the lta amp was around 21-22 db gain. Combine it with a preamp like the modwright ls100 at 10 db gain would put me in the low 30s, same as the 225i. This is research at this point, but I appreciate the education.

doggie

Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #14 on: 24 Aug 2021, 02:14 am »
Looking at some numbers, the lta amp was around 21-22 db gain. Combine it with a preamp like the modwright ls100 at 10 db gain would put me in the low 30s, same as the 225i. This is research at this point, but I appreciate the education.

I checked the LTA website and it looks as if both the UL amp and the UL Int. amp list the gain at 21db. Not sure how to read that unless the preamp section of the integrated is a buffer. My UL Integrated runs between 7-22/100 on the volume for most music. I will be getting an updated volume board soon which has the ability to drop the gain a bit. This will give me better use of the volume control which tends to have narrower steps at the low end. So it seems as if you might not want to go much past 20db for overall gain(preamp + amp) with the X5's. Clayton could help you as I understand that he has often paired LTA amps with his speakers at shows.

franSSS

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #15 on: 24 Aug 2021, 08:53 am »
Newer versions of the three LTA Integrated amps have an adjustment for gain to help with your matching speakers. Older versions can be retrofitted for the newer volume control board.

I am curious. Is the gain control knob inside the unit or on the outside ?

doggie

Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #16 on: 24 Aug 2021, 11:13 am »
I am curious. Is the gain control knob inside the unit or on the outside ?

It can be done through the menu either by using the front panel buttons or the remote.

Mr. Big

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #17 on: 24 Aug 2021, 03:02 pm »
My Mark Levinson 326S preamp has the gain settings, 0, 6, 12, and 18db adjustable settings for each input. I use the 6db range and 12db at times, nice thing about the preamp is it can work with any amp, and with just 50-ohm output impedance it can drive any amp and have the deepest possible bottom end with no roll-off.  Perfect for a speaker that can put out deeply detailed bottom end like the Sapphires M3's.

genjamon

Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #18 on: 24 Aug 2021, 03:38 pm »
Looking at some numbers, the lta amp was around 21-22 db gain. Combine it with a preamp like the modwright ls100 at 10 db gain would put me in the low 30s, same as the 225i. This is research at this point, but I appreciate the education.

Don’t take my 30-40dB of gain as gospel. I left out the voltage output of my source in my earlier post. I can’t remember if I was using a Lampizator Big7 at the time or my current dB Audio Tranquility SE DAC. The Lampi had a fairly high output voltage I believe, while the Tranquility is more likely around a standard 2V - can’t remember for sure though.

So, that earlier post of mine could be fudged lower depending on source output level. And I was also being a bit conservative in wanting to make sure you have enough gain. A standard 2V output with volume maxed into 26 dB of gain would probably satisfy most circumstances.

bbybaudio

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Re: How much gain/amp/power is too much for the x5?
« Reply #19 on: 24 Aug 2021, 07:40 pm »
With my PL using EL34s in triode mode, 40 watts/channel, volume set to a little less than 3 out of 12. Music from X5s is from 75-80 db.