Golden ratio for room treatments?

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cjsailer

Golden ratio for room treatments?
« on: 22 Jul 2021, 06:12 pm »
So what are some general guidelines for room treatments ratios for wall and ceiling surfaces?  I was thinking starting with 60% untreated, 30% absorbing, 10% diffusion? 

My room is in the upstairs loft with an A frame ceiling.   Two walls and ceiling are hard reflective wood.  Front of the room drywall and back of the room opens to main living room. NX Otica for the main speakers.

planet10

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Jul 2021, 09:52 pm »
The single biggest thing you can do for the acoustics of a room is to slope the ceiling. SOunds like you have that. Have you added furniture?Bookshelves? Pictures?

dave

sockpit

Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #2 on: 24 Jul 2021, 01:07 am »
I doubt there is such a ratio.  But there are some priorities, like bass trapping (which improves bass) first.  In a small space you can’t get enough.

Call GIK and ask for a consult. It’s free and if you don’t like it, you can walk. I dealt with Mike.

planet10

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #3 on: 24 Jul 2021, 01:51 am »
A golden ratio room is often touted but research shows that if you have a rectangular room it is not really better than other ratios using irrational numbers.

Fixing the roof gets rid of that rectangle.

dave

cjsailer

Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #4 on: 24 Jul 2021, 02:09 am »
Thanks guys.  Rarely in this hobby, it seems, is there a hard and fast rule.  With my space opening to a larger area, I haven't noticed too much bass boominess.  It's mostly a problem of echo I'm dealing with given all the wood surfaces.  I do have fairly heavy curtains, mostly for light control, so that may help minimally.  I'll probably incrementally add absorption and do a little diffusion behind the main speakers.

corndog71

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #5 on: 24 Jul 2021, 05:06 am »
At the very least get some absorption for the first reflection points.  If you have a lot of echo then you may need more..  Get some diffusers too.  Mix it up.  Short of having a pro deal with it you just have to experiment.

tull skull

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #6 on: 24 Jul 2021, 07:21 am »
Thanks guys.  Rarely in this hobby, it seems, is there a hard and fast rule.  With my space opening to a larger area, I haven't noticed too much bass boominess.  It's mostly a problem of echo I'm dealing with given all the wood surfaces.  I do have fairly heavy curtains, mostly for light control, so that may help minimally.  I'll probably incrementally add absorption and do a little diffusion behind the main speakers.

Well there actually are hard and fast rules but not in the way your probably thinking. As you mentioned you are searching for one size fits all general guidelines and that is what I would hope to apply as well.

Unfortunately actual room treatment is specific to that room so the treatment becomes frequency and amplitude dependent. That requires measurement and data crunching. So instead, please forget everything I just said :) and use some common sense applications as you had hoped to anyway  :lol: :duh:

Echo usually means the secondary and possibly tertiary reflections are arriving too quickly to your ear for your mind to process and invalidate them from the original source information. Absorption or diffusion at specific reflection points will benefit the invalidation process and enhance the believability of the original info.

Frequency aberrations can possibly be reduced by the same treatment, BUT not necessarily, which is where patience becomes tested. Speaker placement as well as the placement of every other artifact in the room can possibly change frequency behavior, so if you move stuff around and like it better, don't forget to recheck your previous reflection point work.

Would love to see some pictures along the way if you think of it.

Oh also those curtains can be a great help. Where is the window they cover?

Big Red Machine

Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #7 on: 24 Jul 2021, 11:56 am »
Fibonacci numbers to start for room size:

http://blog.dubspot.com/fibonacci-sequence-in-music/

Your question is a good question but as the skull responded, "it depends".

Box speakers, open baffle, ribbons, electrostatics, subwoofers, size of speakers, interaction to surrounding walls, seating position, etc.

I've always wanted an ideal room at 17 wide, 23 deep, and 10 high with splayed 23 side walls. Prime numbers and no violation of math multiples with numbers like those.

Those with open baffles or e-stats may put diffusion behind their speakers. Those with heavy woofers may have a ton of bass trapping in the front corners.

My first step is to get the speakers placed so they are not equidistant from side and front walls and the distancing recommended by the manufacturer and users with experience with them. Then I try to sit 62% back from the front wall to avoid any nulls in the center of the room. Then I listen for weeks to that and tweak that before even attempting treatments.

Once you have decent sound and the placements of seating and speakers are set, you can use the reflection points using a mirror to treat as you wish those spots on the wall and ceiling that intersect using the mirror from your eyes to the drivers.

I prefer diffusion on the side walls and ceiling first reflection points, most default to absorption. I mix them but use diffusion first. Just what I have come to like over the years in multiple set-ups.

Some helpful links:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/listening_room.htm

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

https://mehlau.net/audio/floorbounce/

https://audiophilereview.com/room-acoustics/ideal-room-size-dimensions-and-ratios-for-audiophile-listening/

http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/

JLM

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Jul 2021, 12:09 pm »
Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction".  Most research is based on rectangular rooms, so you're out of luck.  Pick loudspeakers for the room first, then the room.  Avoid small/squarish/un-insulated spaces and simple room dimensional ratios like 1:2 or 1:3.  Realize that in-room bass peaks/dips are the biggest issues normally faced and those are best addressed via multiple subwoofers.  Diffusion is limited by the depth of the diffusors (typically down to 1100 Hz).  Most absorption products are useless and are sold based on intuition or appearances, buy based on the numbers. 

Old school absorption theories include LEDE (Live End Dead End) where the panels are installed at the end of the room around the loudspeakers.  Not a bad idea.  Another theory is to locate panels at first reflection points.  Again not a bad idea.  No need to buy it all at once, try some and determine if it's effective.  I have ten GIK 244 panels in my well insulated 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room (Fibonacci ratios) and frankly they don't do much, but in two other rooms they made an instant and significant improvement, even to the layperson.  Toole (perhaps the world's leading acoustician) doesn't put much value in treatments.

planet10

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #9 on: 24 Jul 2021, 05:13 pm »
Quote
Fibonacci numbers

It should be noted that mathematically the Fibonacci numbers leads you to the golden ratio. The 2 are intertwined and talking about one is the same as the other.

dave

planet10

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jul 2021, 05:16 pm »
an ideal room at 17 wide, 23 deep, and 10 high with splayed 23 side walls.]
http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/

Pretty close to my room (23-6”x17-6”), except that it has a 7’-17’ vault and is much more complex than a rectangle with lots of adjoing space.

dave

Big Red Machine

Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #11 on: 24 Jul 2021, 05:36 pm »
It should be noted that mathematically the Fibonacci numbers leads you to the golden ratio. The 2 are intertwined and talking about one is the same as the other.

dave

That's why I mentioned. It is mathematically based and it appeared the OP did not have that insight.

Sailer; is your peak the sidewalls adjoining there? That could be a fun room to treat if you have no flat ceiling surface or it is very small. You may have to treat the heck out of the slopes.

cjsailer

Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #12 on: 25 Jul 2021, 07:33 pm »
Thanks for all the feedback, thus far.  Pictured below is what I have so far.  I plan to do more 2'X4' DIY absorption panels and orient them vertically between the four height speakers and also behind the curtains along the flanks of this photo.  Eventually the TV will be out once I get a projector w/an acoustically transparent screen.

Room dimensions
18'     D (front to back)
29'     W
12'6"   H

Roof pitch 12/14


ric

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Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #13 on: 26 Jul 2021, 01:42 pm »
If you haven't already, watch as many of the Acoustic Fields videos on YouTube as you can. (Dennis Foley) His is a no nonsense approach that dispels basstrap and other half truths about properly dealing with room acoustics. Check out the video of a satisfied customer who built a room within a room to specs designed by AF. Or better yet give them a call. I have no affiliation with the company, just impressed with their videos--of course they want you to use their company, but he offers really good advice driven my science. good luck!

SoCalWJS

Re: Golden ratio for room treatments?
« Reply #14 on: 26 Jul 2021, 03:30 pm »
There are many different Theories on proper Room treatment. It's definitely a bit of Art as well as Science to it.

Live End/Dead End vs Dead End/Live End. Percentages of Wall in front of Listening Position for each vs behind listening position. Types of Absorption. Types of Diffraction. Etc.

No shortage of resources and info out there.

I think every situation is pretty unique - different dimensions, different Construction materials and methods, Different equipment.

Don't be afraid to experiment. Take measurements & change things around. You'll start to get a "Better Feel" for your unique environment. Most of all, let your ears makes the final decision. You may find a specific setup that measures the best, but it just doesn't sound as good as a different setup. Make it so that you enjoy listening as much as possible.