What's in your stands?

Jonathan · « **on:** 27 Jun 2003, 02:40 am »

I am using non-adjustable, 24" black stands (they have two thick tubular cylinders that sit one in front of the other). I know they're Canadian made, but I don't know the brand name, although I believe they were the stands that Divertech was selling with the De Capos up until a year and a half ago or so when they were discontinued.

Anyway, although they're fairly heavy as-is, the tubes do 'ring' when tapped on, and I'm sure they would benefit from being filled with something. My first choice is sand, of course, but I have heard that cat litter is just as effective at controlling the resonances, but with the advantage of being much lighter than sand.

Is anyone using these stands, and do you have any suggestions for what to fill them with? Thanks,

Jon

cyounkman · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 06:34 am »

I strongly recommend silica sand, which you can get at a construction materials place. I paid ca$12 for 100 lbs. Lead would be better, but in my case (see below) it just wasn't feasible; and it's expensive--I estimate I would have paid around ca$300 for the correct volume of lead shot.

Kitty litter was an absolute nightmare for me--I have Lovan Reference six-post stands, and the holes provided for filling the posts were somewhere on the order of 1/3". The average chunk of kitty litter (I bought the cheapest, unscented crap) is only slightly smaller... Short version--I still have kitty litter in these stands which I cannot get out. AND I wasted hours, and probably took years off of my life due to cardiac over-use. [If I sound angry here, it's because I am.]

Kitty litter is also dusty, which silica sand is not, and also was not as 'dead' as sand in my application (it's nowhere near as dense, so...). There was more 'ring' left in the posts with kitty litter than with sand.

Consider yourself warned.

mojoman · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 01:35 pm »

I have similiar style stands and I used playground sand from Home Depot. A 50 pound bag was 3 or 4 bucks.

Andrew JC · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 02:26 pm »

Another vote for the Home Despot sand!

JoshK · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 02:27 pm »

First off I am not a reference 3a owner but I thought the topic was interesting....

Although more expensive, has anyone tried using fishtank gravel as filler?

brucegel · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 10:26 pm »

I recommend staying with sand but the thought occured that a fine slurry of portland cement might even be a superior deadening material but moving them would be no fun at all.

brucegel · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Jun 2003, 10:28 pm »

Sounds like osiris stands and do fill them with sand.

jackman · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 12:22 am »

I'm not a 3A owner either but I would suggest stuffing your stands with weed.

J

Terry · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 01:18 am »

And that is use lead shot. I have the Atlantis stands which have 4 vertical columns, each about 3" square (maybe a bit less). I was offered some lead shot for free and, since I did not have any sand on-hand, I figured I may as well use it. I was smart enough not to fill the columns completely as I reasoned, correctly, that it would make the stand very heavy. So I only half filled the columns. Each stand now weighs about 100 lbs. and are an absolute #$%^ to move. Sand would have done the job just as well, maybe better, and at least I could have moved the things without doing myself a serious injury. Of course, removing the shot from the stand will be a nightmare. I guess I will just have to keep the De Cappos forever.

cyounkman · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 09:57 pm »

It might be worth trying a combination of lead shot and sand? It would still be very heavy...

TIC · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Jul 2003, 01:47 am »

I used a combination of sand and shot. You get a very dense and heavy mixture. BTW, at first I thought I lost significate Bass from my De Capos after filing the stands. Now I realize that the bass just tightened up quite a bit. It's still there in spades, but it is tighter and more solid.

Enjoy,

TIC

cyounkman · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Jul 2003, 05:19 am »

Quote from: TIC

BTW, at first I thought I lost significate Bass from my De Capos after filing the stands. Now I realize that the bass just tightened up quite a bit. It's still there in spades, but it is tighter and more solid.

I had the same experience when I filled my stands with sand.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Jul 2003, 01:21 pm »

I like some weight to my bass and the MM De Capo I's sound really tight with no sand in the Osiris stands. I'm using vibrapods to decouple the speaker from the stands. I've always prefered vibrapods to blu tac for decoupling speaker/stands. I'm concerned that if I fill the stands up with sand, the bass will sound anemic.

I love Maggies and Quads and respect the speed of their bass, but I don't want my De Capo I's to have a similar sounding super tight but undernourished bass. This is a conundrum, since it seems right to fill the stands with sand.

brucegel · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Jul 2003, 07:42 pm »

The decapo i's are the finest resolver of nuanced bass in a 2 way design that I have heard in 30 years.There is a misnomer in the audiophile community that damping a speaker stand reduces the bass.The only thing a speaker can do on a vibrating stand is provide ill defined bass.The first thing to do is eliminate resonance by sand or lead shotting the stand,then put blue tak or something between the speaker/stand interface that does not allow the speaker to move back and forth under powerful woofer motion.Now if you are experiencing lack of deep bass after this you will "get it back" by moving your speaker closer to the back wall.I assure you if you follow these steps you will not want for deep bass.Remember that the Decaps go down to 40hz and then punk out so don't expect sub harmonic vibrations.Fwiw the decapos compete with the finest studio monitors out there when you sit in the golden triangle and explode into something rather spectacular farther back.P.S. TRY SITTING FARTHER BACK IN YOUR ROOM THE SPEAKERS NEED TO BREATH OUT AND INTERACT FOR DEEPER BASS.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Jul 2003, 10:37 pm »

I wish I could move farther back from the speakers!!!

I can only get about 9 feet back and that's my maximum. The room is too small to go back any further. I'll fill them with sand after your argument, Bruce. Thanks.

Michael

brucegel · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Jul 2003, 02:35 am »

Hey Michael...nothings perfect at least you have a wonderful system to enjoy until you can knock the back wall down.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Jul 2003, 03:27 am »

Well, maybe filling the Osiris stands with sand will make me have to move the speaker a little closer to the back wall for more bass weight. That would effectively make give me an extra 6 inches to a foot of listening distance to the speakers.

All may be well in the world. I'm listening to the MM De Capo I's and could go on into the night, but I'll respect my neighbors. I already feel such an emotional connection to them and I've only had them for 2 days!!!!!!! I can't give an audio product a higher review than that

cyounkman · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Jul 2003, 04:46 am »

I agree completely with Bruce on this. The real reason I finally got off my ass and filled mine is because my very sharp-eared, engineering-oriented audio buddy (who lurks around here on occasion) heard something 'ringing' after big bass attacks (a tympani I think) and, after walking around the room clapping, identified the stands as the culprit. That was good enough for me. Clapping loudly at the listening position resulted in an audible ring from the stands. (which, by the way, are extremely rigid Lovan References with six columns. Each column is attached to the top and bottom plate by a very sturdy bolt, which my dealer apparently hired a gorilla to tighten.)

As I've mentioned somewhere else around here, I did notice an apparent reduction in bass after filling with sand (plus the kitty litter I couldn't get out). After some listening, though, the bass was cleaner than before, and had better impact--faster attack, faster decay. Logically, all the undamped stands could do to 'increase bass' is add noise at their various resonant frequencies. [Someone tell me if I'm wrong.]

More bass as a result of room interactions or sympathetic vibrations can sometimes sound like the warm, generous bass response you hear in some halls. This can seem like in increase in realism to the extent that many recordings (particularly commerical labels) do not properly capture this feature of the sound of a live performance.

But to the extent you're chasing after 'accuracy' rather than 'listenability' or whatever, bass that's not on the recording shouldn't arrive at the listening position. Of course, we all have severly imperfect rooms and there are lots of bass response problems; resonating speaker stands is just the easest one to fix.

I was interested to hear that you're using vibrapods. I have also experimented with them under the DC's. My initial impression was a bit of shock at the weirdly seductive midrange clarity and golden tone color they produced; the bass had a warmer, fluffier sound to it. After more listening, the bass seemed less controlled and less deep, even though further up in the range something very interesting indeed was happening. My current opinion of vibrapods is the same whether applied to speakers or components: they provide a measure of isolation, but their 'sound' contribution is ultimately defined by their material, and resonance properties of the vinyl (or whatever it is) tip frequncy response towards the midrange, slowing the bass and slightly attenuating the treble. The results in this regard were eerily similar using them (alone) under my tubed cd player and under the speakers. With speakers, however, there is another issue: the pods are not rigid, and as such they allow the driver, when it moves, to push the speaker back relative to the air, instead of vice versa. This obviously occurs on a small scale, but I think you'll find that pushing the speakers back and forth (without making them slide relative to the pods) will confirm this.

This is all theory, although it coincided with the results I wanted in my system (i.e. deeper, more controlled bass). Ultimately you have to use your ears and decide what sounds right. There is also the issue of whether you're voicing things for an optimized system you don't yet own (my current predicament) or for a musical result with current equipment. That's another rant entirely, and you'll probably thank me for not starting...

There may also be some acoustic magic tricks you can do to increase the apprent size of your room. My room started sounding bigger when I hung a persian rug on the back wall. The problem with that kind of measure is that it has a limited frequency response.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Jul 2003, 05:05 am »

I didn't try Blu Tac on the De Capo I's. I used to use it on my Sound Dynamics 300ti's, but compared it to Vibrapods and found the Vibrapods were much better. Better highs, midrange, and bass. I've read some positive reviews (I believe in Soundstage or TAS) about how vibrapods have performed wonders decoupling speakers from stands- in one case they decoupled a pair of Von Schweikert VR somethings to good effect.

Utimately, it comes down to my own ears. Most of the things I love in audio have some character. With the exception of Quads, I'm not a fan of totally neutral speakers for example (Thiels have never floated my boat). I've heard more neutral speakers than the Reference 3a MM De Capo I's, but didn't connect with them on the same level. That's not saying the MM's aren't revealing/transparent and all the other words people throw at neutrality, but I think they have a definable and somewhat romantic character. I like CJ and VTL products- not necessarily the most neutral, but they sound like live music to me. I go to the NY Philharmonic and the NYC ballet frequently, so I have some idea of what it should sound like. I voice my stuff to Avery Fisher Hall with a touch of warmth added. I'm sure my using vibrapods under speakers may have to do with this listening bias.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Jul 2003, 05:21 pm »

Those sound like Osiris Stands to me (which is what I have). You'll know if they are Osiris stands if they have thick, brass screw-spikes for feet. I believe they were manufactured in China though. Anyway, I have mine filled with a mixture of lead shot and rice. I spent about $50 on the lead shot (75lbs) and about $10 on the huge bag of rice(50lbs). I than filled the bottom of each pole with 2 cups of rice and then just poured in the lead shot. The shot was perfect for filling as it was a very fine bead so it fit easily into the DC's holes.

I just filled them up with the 75lbs of shot and then proceeded to fill the rest up with rice. The cool thing is, if you want to get the rice out, just stick a shop vac to the hole and out it comes. So one day if I want to put more lead in there or some sand (which by the way was my first choice but the Home Depot here kept it outside and it was soaking wet = rust).

I am currently using blue-tak to secure them to the stands but I like to hear of other ideas. I did see a product that was a thin sheet of sorbothane or something that is specifically for speakers on stands. They just wanted $20/sheet though. (yeah I know, I spent alot on lead and rice)

I think my stands weigh about 85lbs each now. They are 35lbs unfilled, plus 37.5lbs of lead shot, plus about 15lbs of rice each.

rice is good and in case of famine...