More Amazing DACs for Peanuts

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JLM

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #540 on: 22 Jan 2021, 01:01 pm »
Power aberrations (the technical term for 'dirty' power) vary with location and time of day/week.  Causes include old appliances, crummy/old house/apartment wiring, other loads on your transformer/substation/distribution systems such as antiquated factories.  As those offending loads drop off some of the aberrations can go away. 

I tried battery powered amp and DAC (Red Wine) years ago.  The little integrated amp, 7 wpc, did an amazingly decent job at powering my 90dB/w/m full range loudspeakers.  The DAC had a switch to power via battery or AC (so you could keep playing while the battery was charging).  In my 2005 house with audio dedicated 20 amp circuits and grounding heard no difference. 

In theory batteries should perform better than power conditioners. 

o0o

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #541 on: 2 Mar 2021, 03:17 pm »
A new windows driver for Da3, Da2, D4, Idea, IQ, etc was released by smsl-audio.

Download: XMOS_USBAudio_v5.0.0_2020-12-18

No changelog provided.

Tested and working fine with with Sabaj Da2.

Bullitt5094

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #542 on: 2 Mar 2021, 05:07 pm »
When sorting through DACs in years past, the Schiit Modi Multibit was a giant killer for me. Looks like it's under $300. I sold my MB when I acquired a Lyngdorf amp that doesn't require a DAC. But I've purchased the non-multibit for a couple of my secondary systems since then. It is also impressive for it's $99 price.

After reading this thread I purchased an E30 and plan to do some A/B listening (vs. the Modi) using my Wife and my Daughter as victims. They both have exceptional hearing and not a clue as the what equipment they are listening to. But love my systems, and have a good idea what things are suppose to sound like. Or, to put it another way, are very opinionated at to what they think is correct sound to the point of having specific cuts they like to use for evaluation. Awesome test subjects. I'll let everyone know how that goes.

pinkfloyd4ever

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #543 on: 22 Mar 2021, 07:19 pm »
When sorting through DACs in years past, the Schiit Modi Multibit was a giant killer for me. Looks like it's under $300. I sold my MB when I acquired a Lyngdorf amp that doesn't require a DAC. But I've purchased the non-multibit for a couple of my secondary systems since then. It is also impressive for it's $99 price.

After reading this thread I purchased an E30 and plan to do some A/B listening (vs. the Modi) using my Wife and my Daughter as victims. They both have exceptional hearing and not a clue as the what equipment they are listening to. But love my systems, and have a good idea what things are suppose to sound like. Or, to put it another way, are very opinionated at to what they think is correct sound to the point of having specific cuts they like to use for evaluation. Awesome test subjects. I'll let everyone know how that goes.

I'm very interested to hear these results, Bullitt. Also, if you can spare another couple hundred bucks, I'd definitely be interested to hear your family's impressions on how a Schiit Modius stacks up in this comparison in to the E30 and Modi 3. I own a couple of Modiuses (Modii?) and just got an E30 I haven't really listened to yet. Also used to own a Modi Multibit.

Regardless of which one you may prefer, they're all excellent budget DACs.

Bullitt5094

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #544 on: 22 Mar 2021, 08:02 pm »
I'm very interested to hear these results, Bullitt. Also, if you can spare another couple hundred bucks, I'd definitely be interested to hear your family's impressions on how a Schiit Modius stacks up in this comparison in to the E30 and Modi 3. I own a couple of Modiuses (Modii?) and just got an E30 I haven't really listened to yet. Also used to own a Modi Multibit.

Regardless of which one you may prefer, they're all excellent budget DACs.

Daughter will will be here over Easter weekend. Testing likely then. And the DAC shelf is getting pretty full. Don't think I'll invest in the Modius. My girls do get bored of "test mode" after a while and just want to listen to uninterrupted music. Plus I have two new speaker builds I want to mix in. Pretty full slate.

o0o

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #545 on: 10 Jul 2021, 07:38 am »
A new windows driver for Da3, Da2, D4, Idea, IQ, etc was released by smsl-audio.

Download: XMOS_USBAudio_v5.12.0_2021-05-30

No changelog provided.

Tested and working fine with with Sabaj Da2.

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #546 on: 27 Nov 2021, 03:15 am »
After a couple years of the same old same old, things finally seem to be taking an interesting turn in the budget DAC market. Demo'ing a couple, will share some thoughts in the next few days.

jmc207

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #547 on: 27 Nov 2021, 06:29 am »
After a couple years of the same old same old, things finally seem to be taking an interesting turn in the budget DAC market. Demo'ing a couple, will share some thoughts in the next few days.


Looking forward to your findings!

mresseguie

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #548 on: 27 Nov 2021, 04:44 pm »


Looking forward to your findings!

+1

Welcome back,  wushuliu.

zek

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #549 on: 9 Dec 2021, 09:09 am »
After a couple years of the same old same old, things finally seem to be taking an interesting turn in the budget DAC market. Demo'ing a couple, will share some thoughts in the next few days.
Are you ready to share your findings here.  :popcorn:

Letitroll98

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #550 on: 9 Dec 2021, 11:54 am »

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #551 on: 9 Dec 2021, 04:22 pm »
Are you ready to share your findings here.  :popcorn:

Apologies. The first two dacs aren't quite peanuts so I am making separate threads for them. But I did come across a last minute DAC or two that are peanuts worthy. It'll be a few days yet before I post anything.

pinkfloyd4ever

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #552 on: 12 Dec 2021, 04:38 pm »
wushuliu, any plans to check out the Geshelli Labs J2? I've read a lot of good things about that DAC.

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #553 on: 12 Dec 2021, 06:53 pm »
wushuliu, any plans to check out the Geshelli Labs J2? I've read a lot of good things about that DAC.

I've heard good things about Geshelli as well. No plan right now. Last I checked they had a several week lead time and returns are of course not as easy as Amazon. I am keeping them on my radar though for down the road.

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #554 on: 12 Dec 2021, 09:09 pm »
OMG came across this little guy and I couldn't resist ordering one:

'HIFI Micro PCM56 R2R decoding with super beautiful sound'
PCM56 16/44.1 R2R DAC on AliExpress YI FAN 4.4 Store. $ 43 shipped! ('Updated version') 8)


(AliExpress Photo)

I don't have much experience with these older chips. These are possibly fake, but who knows. Good news is that
authentic PCM56 are available NOS from Rochester Electronics for ~$16 so worst case scenario I can swap. Also some
other R2Rs like AD1860 are supposedly drop-in compatible. The lack of opamps/complex output is also compelling.

Almost all my music is 16/44, so that's not a limitation for me.

EDIT: Ugh. Of course after buying I find out there's an 'updated' version from another seller. Post edited to reflect that pic and pricing.

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #555 on: 20 Dec 2021, 02:11 am »
A Song of Fire and Ice

So I've had two DACs for a week or so that fall in the Peanuts category that pulled me into a rabbit hole and now that I've finally crawled back out I've been trying decide how to write about them. Polar opposites in design and presentation, but equally compelling and frustrating. I'm going to try and talk about them together, which is both necessary and appropriate as they are made by the same person.

The DACs are the E1DA PowerDac V2.1 and the E1DA 9038DS.

E1DA is the moniker of Ivan Khlyupin, a Russian engineer who lives in China and is a 'freelance designer in SMPS/Class D/DSP/Embedded'. His son Tyoma is a coder who helps make the apps that accompany the two dacs. Ivan is also an active member of diyaudio (IVX). So these are not farmed out of the typical Chi-fi factory stable. These are precision engineered and thoroughly documented audio products. Ivan's ethos is essentially how to leverage his proximity and knowledge re: Chinese manufacturing to make the best engineered, compact and affordable products possible while at the same creating tools to allow hobbyists to conduct technical measurements with the same level of precision as $30K gear (via his Cosmos ADC). If you read between the lines of the bolded portion you'll understand the ramifications. So far...he's been successful. I could go on but I want to just focus on the DACs.

To learn more the E1DA website is here: https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index
His Discord is here: https://discord.com/channels/483873307251310592/616934105325764608

Fire

Around 2019 on diyaudio Ivan expressed his frustration with poor quality over-priced portable dacs options for his planars. His answer - design his own. But with a twist: his solution wouldn't use any off-the-shelf typical sigma-delta chips that are ubiquitous. Instead he used his background as an SMPS/ClassD engineer to make a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) DAC! In fact, I think the *first* such DAC, certainly for the average consumer. Enter the PowerDAC (PDAC):





Tiny! The case is beautifully machined and has a high quality feel. On the back is an etching of how it works:



The PDAC comes stock w/ a 2.5mm balanced output, but an adapter is included for single ended conversion*(but see 'cons' section below). The USB doesn't need drivers for Windows or Mac/iOS. And that's it for the basic out of the box experience*. But you don't want the basic out of the box experience.

And this is where a rabbit hole opens up: You want the app, HPToy which is free to download. HPToy gives you access to the built-in DSP settings of the DAC. And hoo boy, there are a lot. So from your phone you can control not just Volume, Bass, and Treble, but Loudness, PEQ which is basically a slick equalizer, and dozens of presets based on other headphones and Harman curves and on and on. Like I said, rabbit hole:

Thing is this DAC stock sounds good (I'll get to SQ soon I promise) but IMO you *have* to use the app to bring it to life. A slight increase on the loudness setting here, adjust volume there*, bring up the PEQ at 7khz a touch... you get the picture. But it's worth it because the nature of the design is such that doing so won't detract from the sound quality as would happen with a typical DAC. There's no penalty in the PWM design (that I can discern) for tweaking to your taste, which is pretty awesome.

So how does the PDAC sound?

My expectation - and I'm sure I'm not alone given the whole 'PWM' thing - was that the PDAC would be a harsh digital aural spasm of 1s and 0s. That is not the case. In fact, the PDAC is the complete and utter opposite.  IMO you will not under any circumstances mistake the PDAC for an ESS dac, or any typical Sigma Delta for that matter.  I would characterize the stock PDAC as neutral/warm. The presentation overall is smooth in the mids and lower. It's hard to describe how different the PDAC is from a typical sigma-delta; smoother, perhaps. Even tube-like, perhaps due to the higher-than-usual distortion present. Yep, you read that right. PDAC won't be getting 'recommended' by the measurement site anytime soon. Strong lower midrange and bass emphasis. Upper treble and higher is subdued/further back in the mix. Powerful macrodynamics. I've never used the audiophile term 'muscular' before cause what does that even mean? Well, the cleverly designed PDAC hits the gut like Apollo Creed. If anything I find the PDAC a little too warm stock, a little too bass forward but then I again I am using HD6XXs which are already full in the midbass. I assume that combined with say planars - for which Ivan ideally designed these dacs in the first place - or other leaner sounding headphones, the presentation may be more balanced.

Soundstage is narrow and forward. In fact I would say the PDAC is like a wall of sound. Separation and depth are not a strong point - at least not single ended, maybe balanced is better. Microdetails are there, but the lower frequencies and macrodynamics dominate.

Bottom line? The PDAC is a wonderful change of pace. A little rolled off at the top, it's smooth and has slam.

Now open the app and you can refine that presentation: Up the loudness just 3-5% in the bass or lower mids and oooooohhhhhh baby, you've gone Beats. But without flabby boomy bass. Using the loudness function what you get is a refined, articulate, but hard hitting at whatever frequency you decide. Open the PEQ, slide the column wherever in the response you want and then increase or decrease the amplitude. Say 7khz, simply hold down for a sec then slide up. Now the microdetails pop, treble emphasis gets a nice boost without fatigue and it's like a whole new dac. I would avoid Treble and Bass settings as they lack the precision and just operate like, well, basic treble and bass equalizer.

Needless to say you can twiddle forever with the app in hand. Which kind of leads to the downsides of this DAC:

*Cons:

As one would expect from an engineer who hangs out at diyaudio, the PDAC is fiddly as hell and there are trade-offs that put this DAC more in the hands of an 'enthusiast' than say, a regular consumer or audiophile:

Volume. Since his dacs are designed foremost with planars in mind, these dacs put out higher than typical voltage and as such get LOUD. The PDAC's default output, even single ended, is incredibly loud. So be prepared to adjust volume more than usual. If you use the app you can set a preset that will always open at reduced volume. There is also a way to get Windows volume to default to lower volume output, but it is fiddly and best to ask Ivan or his rep on instructions. This is the kind of thing you don't have to think about with typical dacs but trust me you don't want to accidentally forget to adjust the volume with headphones on with the PDAC until you're sorted.

Line out: PDAC is headphone use ONLY. Do not try to line out to an amp. The PWM design has high DC offset single-ended that could potentially damage a preamp/amp and there is no ground for balanced to be used properly. These are non-issues for headphones, but a no-go for line out use.

App: The app is awesome but if you don't like having your phone handy (assuming the PDAC isn't directly connected to it) you're stuck with the stock performance. I don't like staring at my phone screen. Too much eye strain. That said once you've dialed in the PDAC you'll only need it for volume control. Keep in mind however the app is mandatory to select Unbalanced output

Heat: The PDAC gets hot. REAL hot (hence FIRE). It looks cute and portable like a baby dragon. It isn't.

Compatibility: Ivan has been clear that despite its size the PDAC is meant to be more of a desktop/stationary item. It is relatively power-hungry and gets real hot so be careful about mobile usage.

Adapter: You must use the supplied adapter for single-ended use. Do not use any other adapter that has not been ok'd by E1DA.

All this is to say make sure to go the product page, read it thoroughly or read multiple reviews thoroughly.

Oh - price. ~$76 Direct from E1DA AliExpress store, $90 from retailers. Stock has been sold out lately from retailers.

Summary: I find the PDAC addictive. I've spent a bunch of money in this new round of auditioning DACs and it's tempting to sell the PDAC to at least recoup some of that. But there's something so engrossing and impressive about the sound quality, plus the looks and feel... it's almost like a collector's item to me already. This PDAC was a pleasant surprise and packs a wallop for, well, peanuts.

I'll have more to add and this probably should have been its own thread but there it is for now. Next up, the 9038DS (Ice).


« Last Edit: 22 Dec 2021, 03:06 am by wushuliu »

Letitroll98

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Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #556 on: 20 Dec 2021, 11:27 am »
So according to the website this was designed specifically for my Hifiman HE 400i headphones, kewl.

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #557 on: 21 Dec 2021, 06:33 am »
So according to the website this was designed specifically for my Hifiman HE 400i headphones, kewl.

 8)

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #558 on: 27 Dec 2021, 12:39 am »
Ice

As promised I'll discuss the other DAC that E1DA makes, the 9038D. This will be a pretty short summary.

The 9038D is the single-ended version of E1DA's 9038 series, based on the ES9038Q2M. Unlike the PowerDac, the 38D and it's USB-C input is meant to be used with phones and other mobile devices. Which won't be hard to do because it is incredibly small. Measuring only 24mm (2in.) in length :



For the 38-series Ivan of E1DA aimed for a DAC that would be both compact and a measurement champion. He succeeded on both fronts. You can find that info both on the E1DA website (provided in PowerDac review post above) as well on that measurement site. Not only that but he also provides an app to control some niche, but fascinating parameters like master clock speed, filters, and even distortion! What's amazing is that these options are controllable from within the dac itself, not post-processing. So you have the opportunity to hear for yourself whether 2nd or 3rd distortion makes a difference and which you prefer or in whatever combination.



However that's where the positives end for me when it comes to the 38D. For starters, the 38D is *not* bluetooth detectable like the PowerDac and therefore the Tweak App can only be used when directly connected to a mobile device. For PC/laptop users it is possible to update firmware via USB to change filters and distortion, but it is not as convenient and does have the risk of potentially bricking the unit.

Last but not least is sound quality. The 38D presentation excels at low noise and microdetails, but lacks (via headphones anyway) depth and weight. You get an outstanding 2-dimensional blueprint but the music never comes close to being fleshed out. The end result is flat, cold, and clinical. To his credit even the designer agrees and as such prefers to listen with the special 'SE' firmware that provides high 2nd harmonic distortion. I second that. The SE firmware puts some life in the 38D, but only enough to put it on par with others around its price class. As such, the 38D is a big pass for me.

The good news is that E1DA has a <$200 desktop version of the 38D, the Cosmos DAC, ready for production once supply chain and parts cost issues settle down. The PowerDac shows that Ivan isn't just chasing measurements and that he's also got a good ear for sound. Here's hoping the Cosmos delivers on the promise of both the PowerDac and 38D.

wushuliu

Re: More Amazing DACs for Peanuts
« Reply #559 on: 30 Dec 2021, 03:24 am »
OMG came across this little guy and I couldn't resist ordering one:

'HIFI Micro PCM56 R2R decoding with super beautiful sound'
PCM56 16/44.1 R2R DAC on AliExpress YI FAN 4.4 Store. $ 43 shipped! ('Updated version') 8)


(AliExpress Photo)

I don't have much experience with these older chips. These are possibly fake, but who knows. Good news is that
authentic PCM56 are available NOS from Rochester Electronics for ~$16 so worst case scenario I can swap. Also some
other R2Rs like AD1860 are supposedly drop-in compatible. The lack of opamps/complex output is also compelling.

Almost all my music is 16/44, so that's not a limitation for me.

EDIT: Ugh. Of course after buying I find out there's an 'updated' version from another seller. Post edited to reflect that pic and pricing.

Well kiss my grits. This little cheap azz R2R arrived today. Much smaller than I expected, too and looking basic AF. Takes 18-24v, so I plugged in my bench supply and connected a cheap USB/SPDIF converter.

Hot damn. This $40 box sounds *good*. Really good. No, really really good. Anita Baker's voice has tactility and sweet emotion. Piano notes have a kind of naturalness and weight I don't normally hear with the usual dacs, not even my modded Soekris 1021. Transients have snap, even snappier than the Topping E50 (not E30) I wrote about recently. Very dynamic. Organic, realistic bass punch, but not overwhelming. Not syrupy or rolled off, though like the Muse TPA1543 I once had (and an AC'er borrowed and never returned  :nono:). Very good extension. Has that R2R organicy, natural presentation. Surprisingly comes off as very quiet to me. Microdetails also pretty decent.

I'm not even going to compare it with the other Peanut DACs. It's a step or two above them easily. Instead I'll compare to pricier 'budget' fare I've heard/owned. Closest in sound signature is probably the $270 Topping E50, which has a similar toe-tapping quality. But the E50 doesn't have the naturalness of tone and midrange as this PCM56 and isn't as dynamic. The ~ $400Sabaj A20d has better instrument separation, more precise image, overall better extension in the extremes, but again not as good in natural tone/timbre/PRaT. The Soekris also has better separation, imaging, and a bit more dimensionality overall but the PCM56 I think wins on midrange and tone. The Soekris has always had a great sense of space but a little bit thin in the mids. This little black box is the opposite. They definitely share a similar organic, textured delivery. I wish I had my 2 channel setup running because I would love to compare the two through some good speakers. Alas my HD6XXs must suffice for now and with my headphones I think the two are *maybe* evenly matched just a question of tradeoffs. Will have to really spend time to compare. But I mean, my Soekris runs on LT3045 regulators and LifePo batteries. This little black box shouldn't even be in the ring.

'The last shall be first and the first shall be last'.To say my expectations were low is an understatement. I bought this dac on a lark just to get a little 'vintage' R2R flavor in the peanut mix. Also as much as I like to mess around with cheap dacs I am ready to tackle another new higher end project like the Soekris. My intent was to get one of Soekris' newer boards and go all out, but I may have to consider some other projects based around these old R2R/Multibit chips...