BDA-3.14 volume control

Sasha · « **on:** 4 Jun 2020, 02:24 am »

Hello all,

I have returned to this forum after years of absence, for a while I lost interest.
I have a question about BDA-3.14 and its digital volume control. Has anyone been using it in a setup where the unit is connected directly to the amplification, and does it show significant loss of resolution?

Thanks,
Sasha

James Tanner · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Jun 2020, 01:23 pm »

Hi Sasha

I have used the 3.14 as a Preamp at home and at some audio shows (before the virus!)

With a digital volume control you do loose BIT's as you turn the volume down so the degree of loss and the audibility of that loss will be somewhat dependent on your system.

With my Active Middle TREX system at home which is very efficient I typically run the volume control fairly low whereas with my Mini T system upstairs which is more indicative of most systems I can turn the volume up a lot more and therefor loose less BITs.

One good thing I has noticed is that a lot of the streaming music and downloaded music that is now available on the better streaming services like Qobuz have a lot of material in 24BIT resolution rather than 16BIT like on CD's. That really negates any loss of fidelity due to the digital volume implementation.

james

Sasha · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Jun 2020, 01:32 pm »

Hi James,

Thank you for the info.
Are there any plans to add analog volume control into either BDA-3 or BDA-3.14?

And can you please let me know the output impedance on balanced out for BDA-3.14?

Sasha

James Tanner · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Jun 2020, 01:38 pm »

Quote from: Sasha on 4 Jun 2020, 01:32 pm

Hi James,

Thank you for the info.
Are there any plans to add analog volume control into either BDA-3 or BDA-3.14?

And can you please let me know the output impedance on balanced out for BDA-3.14?

Sasha

Hi Sasha

No plans for analog control on the BDP products.

I will ask engineering on the output impedance question.

james

James Tanner · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Jun 2020, 03:20 pm »

Hi Sasha

Engineering tells me 72 Ohms.

james

Sasha · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Jun 2020, 03:40 pm »

Thank you James.

Sasha

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Jun 2020, 08:29 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 4 Jun 2020, 01:38 pm

Hi Sasha

No plans for analog control on the BDP products.

I will ask engineering on the output impedance question.

james

Weren’t you kicking around the idea of a digital preamp? Or did that morph into something else, like the 3.14?

James Tanner · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Jun 2020, 08:48 pm »

Quote from: Stu Pitt on 8 Jun 2020, 08:29 pm

Weren’t you kicking around the idea of a digital preamp? Or did that morph into something else, like the 3.14?

Hi Stu

We are still working on the BP18 which is a combination of the BP26 analog Preamp and the BDA3 DAC combined. Also thinking about the option of an internal Pi.

james

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Jun 2020, 12:41 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 8 Jun 2020, 08:48 pm

Hi Stu

We are still working on the BP18 which is a combination of the BP26 analog Preamp and the BDA3 DAC combined. Also thinking about the option of an internal Pi.

james

Sounds quite interesting. Thanks!

alexone · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Jun 2020, 06:53 pm »

...wow! a BP18...sounds good

if this pre has usb inputs then the BP17 Cubed should have a usb card as well

al.

bokko · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Jun 2020, 07:01 pm »

Very interesting might just have to wait a bit longer...

Quote from: James Tanner on 8 Jun 2020, 08:48 pm

We are still working on the BP18 which is a combination of the BP26 analog Preamp and the BDA3 DAC combined. Also thinking about the option of an internal Pi.

james

Sasha · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Jul 2020, 10:58 pm »

What is the expected release date for BP18, and when will it be known if it will include Pi?

James Tanner · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Jul 2020, 11:47 pm »

Quote from: Sasha on 5 Jul 2020, 10:58 pm

What is the expected release date for BP18, and when will it be known if it will include Pi?

Hi Sasha

i would say another month or so. yes it will have the Pi4

james

Sasha · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2020, 01:09 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 5 Jul 2020, 11:47 pm

Hi Sasha

i would say another month or so. yes it will have the Pi4

james

Hi James,

To me BP18 looks like Bricasti M12, what I had considered as the ultimate source, but taken to the even higher level, so I am very intrigued.
I have some questions about its functionality, could you please help with them?
Will USB ports on BP18 support playback from attached USB hard drive and if so what will be the supported PCM and DSD resolutions?
Will the unit be DLNA/UpnP compatible, will it be visible on Ethernet network as DLNA/UpnP renderer/DAC from applications that support DLNA/UpnP such as Audirvana, Foobar, etc.?
Will the analog input and output be balanced?
Will the unit use linear or switching PSU(s)?
Do you have photos of prototype, and the approximate price?

Thanks,
Sasha

James Tanner · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Jul 2020, 02:04 pm »

Hi Sasha

Not sure on some of the questions - I will let you know once i have a working prototype.

james

R. Daneel · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Jul 2020, 03:13 pm »

I don't know about you guys but I'd refrain from using a digital volume control. One wrong move with your finger across the screen and the power amp unleashes it's full output into the speakers. Definitely not a good thing.

IMHO, BDA-3.14 is as much of a preamp as a BDP. In other words, it should be seen as a streamer and a DAC, not a preamp.

I agree that preamp's 'function' is somewhat questionable in this day and age. In the past, a preamp was used to compensate for the variances in the different source components and these were primarily analogue - FM tuners, turntables, cassette decks, open-reel decks. All of these had very different output characteristics with a wide range of voltages and output impedances. Most DACs today have a voltage and output impedance suitable for direct connection to a power amplifier. The only thing that's needed is a volume control.

Cheers!
Antun

WildPhydeaux · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Jul 2020, 03:44 pm »

I think you may have mistaken "digital volume control" with software controlled volume. Just because you can control the volume of a device from a wired or wireless computer interface doesn't mean the volume control on the device is a digital volume control, although in point of fact many are. The volume control on the device could just as easily be an analog potentiometer whose position is determined by a digital logic circuit - so the sound path is not the least bit digital. It's not a digital volume control vs an analog one that is the danger.

Your point about an onscreen slider controlling the volume is valid. I have not investigated the Manic Moose interface configuration details to closely as I determined early on that MM was not for me, however I would assume there is a user-selectable safety limit for the volume. For Roon I know that there are two levels of "max volume" settings that can be applied which prevent you from ever accidentally blasting your system beyond a safe level from a slip of a finger.

If you agree that a preamp's function is questionable in this day and age but are also against digital volume control, how would you propose to control the volume?

Cheers,
Robert

WildPhydeaux · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Jul 2020, 05:02 pm »

Deleted

R. Daneel · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Jul 2020, 09:18 pm »

Quote from: WildPhydeaux on 9 Jul 2020, 03:44 pm

I think you may have mistaken "digital volume control" with software controlled volume. Just because you can control the volume of a device from a wired or wireless computer interface doesn't mean the volume control on the device is a digital volume control, although in point of fact many are. The volume control on the device could just as easily be an analog potentiometer whose position is determined by a digital logic circuit - so the sound path is not the least bit digital. It's not a digital volume control vs an analog one that is the danger.

Your point about an onscreen slider controlling the volume is valid. I have not investigated the Manic Moose interface configuration details to closely as I determined early on that MM was not for me, however I would assume there is a user-selectable safety limit for the volume. For Roon I know that there are two levels of "max volume" settings that can be applied which prevent you from ever accidentally blasting your system beyond a safe level from a slip of a finger.

If you agree that a preamp's function is questionable in this day and age but are also against digital volume control, how would you propose to control the volume?

Cheers,
Robert

Hi Robert!

I wasn't at all referring to the tech behind it nor the advantages or disadvantages of any particular type of volume control. I was merely stating how useless the on-screen interfaces are with respect to controlling volume.

Regarding preamps, whether they are useful or not is left for debate but regardless of that, you still need something to connect your source equipments to (assuming you have more than one) and to select between them.

Manufacturers could use rotary encoders to control the volume through software. These have been used for years in industry and work reasonably well, certainly a lot better than using your finger to slide across a display.

That being said, I do not use volume controllers through software nor do I really like electronic volume controls. A high-quality analogue volume pots are what I like and use. They last the longest since there is no chip that can die and become impossible to replace in a few years time and they sound better than resistor-ladder tpyes, even with channel mistracking below the optimum stretch of the pot.

Cheers!
Antun

bokko · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Jul 2020, 03:20 pm »

I prefer analog control myself as I listen to DSD. With DSD if you use digital volume control you go from 100 to 96 you just hear white noise.
My old dac simply didn't allow for volume control on DSD playback...disabling it by default (PCM only) making you turn it on so you could be warned of this fact.

Here is a good article.
https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/311-what-s-wrong-with-digital-volume-controls.

Now someone said getting a remote with a BDA-3 does not then use digital volume control. If that were case I would buy a Bryston remote in a heartbeat...