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The Commercial Zone => Audio Shows and Events => Rocky Mountain Audio Fest => Topic started by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 04:41 am

Title: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 04:41 am
OK, I can't resist a little bit of commentary and a few pics.  Here's my super-compressed impressions. 


Alright, enough rambling.  Time for pics.  Now, before you ask, I'll tell you up front.  I went into every single room at RMAF and I spent at least one hour in every room thoroughly evaluating every aspect of performance.  The systems that were good, I took a quick picture of.  ALL of the other systems sounded shitty.  So if you don't see your favorite vendor pictured below, well you can guess what I thought of it. 

Did I mention Denver is freaking awesome?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1549.jpg)




VAC and Tannoy room sounded very good:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1543.jpg)




Carver room sounded great on Saturday and not so great on Sunday (I know, weird, right?):
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1531.jpg)




Verity speakers looked amazing and sounded really good too:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1526.jpg)




We went to a nightclub!  Just kidding.  It was a weird room at RMAF that I saw no actual reason for:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1514.jpg)




Skull shaped headphone amp for $14,000!  I kid you not.  Holy crap what is wrong with this hobby?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1510.jpg)



Macintosh room!  Sounded like it looked - bright and fake:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1508.jpg)




Salk/Lampizator room.  Flat out the BEST I have ever heard the Salk speakers.  Great, great room.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1506.jpg)



Abyss headphones are the ones that make you look the coolest!  Too bad they are so meh sounding.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1504.jpg)




Oh man, I haven't heard Paradigm speakers in years, time to give them another shot.  How did they sound?  Oh they sounded like someone put a big mesh grill in front of the drivers.  How does this even get out of the brainstorming stage?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1500.jpg)




Vaughan speakers - sounded good this year, but they were better last year in a larger room.  Great speakers, but they need a bit of room to breath, IMO.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1498.jpg)




ELAC Adante tower speakers - my vote for best sound at RMAF.  What Andrew Jones has been able to create for $5000 with ELAC is kind of astonishing.  Especially considering the stupid high price of other speakers that don't even reach this level of performance.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1494.jpg)




Raidho Speakers - really good sound and stupid high price.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1490.jpg)




Actual Best in Show, IMO.  The Vinnie Rossi / Spatial Audio room.  Vinnie of course always knocks it out of the park.  And I've always like Spatial speakers in the past.  But the combo of these 2 was something special.  True synergy and easily the best sound at RMAF this year, IMO. And I stupidly did not take a picture!  So I'm stealing a pic from someone else online:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169598)
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: S Clark on 9 Oct 2017, 04:49 am
Thanks, Tyson.  Not bad for half-assed. 
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Zero on 9 Oct 2017, 05:22 am
Tyson,

First, I thought you were done with this sh*t?  I knew you couldn't resist.

Second, glad to see your b*** a**  friend, Jason, is still alive.  Wouldn't have believed it without the photographic evidence.  As a side note, it's good to see the pleasantly miserable couple reunited at their annual stomping ground. And on a beautiful fall day, no less! :D

Lastly, Thanks for posting up your impressions.  As always, I enjoy reading through your raw, unfiltered thoughts. It's even better when everything is short n' sweet.  As a side note...  I wonder..  do people know how friendly you are in person (as opposed to your persona through text)?  Wait, did I just spill the beans?  Naw..  It's just another trait of the introverted Audiophile.  :D

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Spatial Audio on 9 Oct 2017, 06:06 am
Thanks Tyson for the Best of Show comment. The picture you have is the Spatial X1 from the LA show. Here is a pic of the new X2 and the LIO you heard at RMAF:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169598)
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 06:14 am
Thanks Tyson for the Best of Show comment. The picture you have is the Spatial X1 from the LA show. Here is a pic of the new X2 and the LIO you heard at RMAF:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169598)


Fixed!  Thanks :)  And congrats on an amazing room.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 06:56 am
Tyson,

First, I thought you were done with this sh*t?  I knew you couldn't resist.

Second, glad to see your b*** a**  friend, Jason, is still alive.  Wouldn't have believed it without the photographic evidence.  As a side note, it's good to see the pleasantly miserable couple reunited at their annual stomping ground. And on a beautiful fall day, no less! :D

Lastly, Thanks for posting up your impressions.  As always, I enjoy reading through your raw, unfiltered thoughts. It's even better when everything is short n' sweet.  As a side note...  I wonder..  do people know how friendly you are in person (as opposed to your persona through text)?  Wait, did I just spill the beans?  Naw..  It's just another trait of the introverted Audiophile.  :D

Being done with this shit - I honestly had no plans to post anything.  Hell, I didn't even go on Friday.  Then Saturday I didn't think we'd even get through more than a couple floors.  But it's amazing how quickly you can go through things when you can immediately skip every Focal room, ever Vandersteen room, every Von Schweikert room, every Wilson room, every B&W room, every Dynaudio room, every lifestyle oriented room and every room where someone brings a stupid small bookshelf speaker with a 6 inch midwoofer and a 1 inch dome tweeter. 

We aren't miserable I think, as much as disenchanted.  My systems stable enough nowadays that I'm away from the buying/churning aspect of this hobby for most of the year.  So every RMAF it's sticker shock all over again.  As I told Wayne today (he's missed several RMAFs because he lost interest a while back): "The gear doesn't sound any better than it did 4 years ago.  But it's a LOT more expensive!"
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Wayne1 on 9 Oct 2017, 07:00 am
I was fortunate to get a guided tour from both Pez and Tyson today through the best/worst rooms at RMAF.

I do agree with Tyson the attendance was way down for both vendors and attendees. There were floors with no one on them with vendors almost grabbing you to try to get you to come into their rooms so they would have something to do.

I absolutely agree that the Tannoy/ VAC room was one of the stand outs. Evey one else on that floor in the same size suites had terrible problems with room boom. Tannoy/VAC had it tamed. I would hope they would for the money wanted for the gear.

For my 63 yr old ears, the Carver room on Sunday was not what I wanted to hear. Very typical boom and sizzle. The highs were far too hot from the Amazing Line source. The image with the multiple side firing woofers was indistinct.

I stopped in the Vaugh room with Jason and again though the tweeters were turned up too high. Very much sizzle without any steak.

I briefly heard the Elac. Overall very nice first impression, but I thougt I was hearing some minor coloration from the aluminum cones.

I really, REALLY liked the Raidho speaker. One of my personal favorites of the show. Until I found out they were $122,000.00

The Spatial X2 and VR system was very, very good, but I still can't fully accept OB. I really want a sealed box.

I don't think Tyson took any pictures, but I really liked what Duke LeJuene was showing. I did not stay to hear the full demo, but just the plain speaker were sound very good without the ambiance module.

Dan Wright and Lou Hinkley's room in IRIS, sounded real nice when I arrived Sunday Morning. The new 10" woofer was exceptional. He finally took my advice  :wink: and separated the crossover from the cabinet nd is mechanically isolating the speaker wire runs to the drivers.

I am not too sure about the aesthetic design of his new TOTL speakers. I understand that practically it is easier and cheaper to ship four smaller cartons, but aesthetically, one single large speaker might look better. Whaterver, I did like the sound in their room .


Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Zero on 9 Oct 2017, 07:26 am
Tyson,

You're right. 'Disenchanted' is the more accurate descriptor.  Still, I think you two are Mary Poppin's compared to yours truly.  :D   "Burn them all!" should be my new audiophile motto!

Seriously though, I wish I coulda been there.  Glad to see you out and having a good time with good company.  The latter is what this gig is mostly about anyway.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 07:31 am
Tyson,

You're right. 'Disenchanted' is the more accurate descriptor.  Still, I think you two are Mary Poppin's compared to yours truly.

(https://i1.wp.com/68.media.tumblr.com/fc516d5b929f2849ff404daaa741b859/tumblr_oumura4v5H1sc0ffqo7_1280.gif?zoom=2&w=605)
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: AJinFLA on 9 Oct 2017, 12:26 pm
We went to a nightclub!  Just kidding.  It was a weird room at RMAF that I saw no actual reason for:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1514.jpg)
Nice coverage. Were they playing surround tracks in the night club room?

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: schw06 on 9 Oct 2017, 12:39 pm
Tyson,
   You missed your calling! I find myself laughing out loud at how you "call out" everyone and everything that is dysfunctional in this hobby. Your brutal honesty and humor are a breath of fresh air. Please don't stop.
David
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: mtrot on 9 Oct 2017, 12:50 pm
"This year I played a fun game called "Make eye contact with the introverts".  During all of RMAF I think only 4 or 5 people actually met/retuned my gaze.  Everyone else was REALLY fascinated with what the floor looked like  :lol:  And I say that AS an introvert myself!"

Lol, I think I may have a diagnosis for this apparent malady.  It's called the, "I spent way too much on my current system to be here and find out that my system is crap compared to these, and don't bother me just right now" syndrome!

I actually would have been there, except that my niece, out of all the weekends of the year, decided to get married Saturday evening.  It is a bit disconcerting that attendance seems to be declining.  And it doesn't seem a good sign either that the Anaheim show was cancelled.  Thanks for the great report.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: zybar on 9 Oct 2017, 01:34 pm
I was fortunate to get a guided tour from both Pez and Tyson today through the best/worst rooms at RMAF.

I do agree with Tyson the attendance was way down for both vendors and attendees. There were floors with no one on them with vendors almost grabbing you to try to get you to come into their rooms so they would have something to do.

I absolutely agree that the Tannoy/ VAC room was one of the stand outs. Evey one else on that floor in the same size suites had terrible problems with room boom. Tannoy/VAC had it tamed. I would hope they would for the money wanted for the gear.

For my 63 yr old ears, the Carver room on Sunday was not what I wanted to hear. Very typical boom and sizzle. The highs were far too hot from the Amazing Line source. The image with the multiple side firing woofers was indistinct.

I stopped in the Vaugh room with Jason and again though the tweeters were turned up too high. Very much sizzle without any steak.

I briefly heard the Elac. Overall very nice first impression, but I thougt I was hearing some minor coloration from the aluminum cones.

I really, REALLY liked the Raidho speaker. One of my personal favorites of the show. Until I found out they were $122,000.00

The Spatial X2 and VR system was very, very good, but I still can't fully accept OB. I really want a sealed box.

I don't think Tyson took any pictures, but I really liked what Duke LeJuene was showing. I did not stay to hear the full demo, but just the plain speaker were sound very good without the ambiance module.

Dan Wright and Lou Hinkley's room in IRIS, sounded real nice when I arrived Sunday Morning. The new 10" woofer was exceptional. He finally took my advice  :wink: and separated the crossover from the cabinet nd is mechanically isolating the speaker wire runs to the drivers.

I am not too sure about the aesthetic design of his new TOTL speakers. I understand that practically it is easier and cheaper to ship four smaller cartons, but aesthetically, one single large speaker might look better. Whaterver, I did like the sound in their room .

Glad to see you post Wayne.

I hope you are doing well.

George
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: konut on 9 Oct 2017, 01:57 pm
Your half-assed coverage is better than the fully-assed coverage. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Big Red Machine on 9 Oct 2017, 03:20 pm
I agree with Wayne's assessment.

I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of digital/electronic noise this year. Many quiet systems at play that really let the music flow.

My favorite speakers were the Lumenwhites, any Tidals, Wilson Alexia II's, and Focal Sopra 3's used in about 8 rooms.

With relatively empty rooms I got to talk engineering with many organizations and there is some cool stuff going on. But you'll pay for that research eventually!!

I really appreciated Jason's and Tyson's much more relaxed behavior this year since they weren't running from one room to another and we actually got to sit and chat. :green: 8)
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: rollo on 9 Oct 2017, 03:51 pm
   Nice coverage Tyson, thanks. See ya'all at CAF.


charles
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: witchdoctor on 9 Oct 2017, 04:10 pm
Did you see the esoteric room?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtB871VbS4s

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: ArthurDent on 9 Oct 2017, 04:12 pm
Thanks for the coverage Tyson, appears 'fully-assed' to me. Your usual no BS thoughts & observations are appreciated, as always.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 04:39 pm
Did you see the esoteric room?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtB871VbS4s

I think you missed this part of my original post:

Alright, enough rambling.  Time for pics.  Now, before you ask, I'll tell you up front.  I went into every single room at RMAF and I spent at least one hour in every room thoroughly evaluating every aspect of performance.  The systems that were good, I took a quick picture of.  ALL of the other systems sounded shitty.  So if you don't see your favorite vendor pictured below, well you can guess what I thought of it. 
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: MarkR7 on 9 Oct 2017, 04:45 pm
I think you missed this part of my original post:

Tyson, first of all, thanks for the show summary. Good coverage for sure, and we appreciate your efforts!

I was lookiing for (expecting) a system pic of the room with Tekton's Dual Impacts in it, but based on the above, I guess you didn't care for the room.  They seem to be all the rage over on Audiogon... perhaps yet another "product of the month" with all the raves.

Anyways, thanks again!
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: FullRangeMan on 9 Oct 2017, 04:48 pm
Oh man, I haven't heard Paradigm speakers in years, time to give them another shot.  How did they sound?  Oh they sounded like someone put a big mesh grill in front of the drivers.  How does this even get out of the brainstorming stage?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1500.jpg)
Thanks for these great photos, very nice job boys.
These grids are for protection purposes only when the speakers are not in use :o
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Chris Adams on 9 Oct 2017, 05:27 pm
Thanks, Tyson!  :thumb: Your coverage is the best of any I've seen/read. If "pro"? writers adjusted their coverage to be more half-assed, the information would be far more interesting and useful.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: davek on 9 Oct 2017, 09:10 pm
Hi Tyson, thanks for the reviews, was wondering if you got a chance to hear the new Ryan s840 floorstander?
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: djdube525 on 9 Oct 2017, 09:11 pm
Having never been to one of these types of shows before... I was a bit surprised given the small #'s of folks, some vendors just didn't give a crap and seemed to be (a certain headphone mfg in the back corner comes to mind) a bit annoyed when you asked a question, when there wasn't anyone else in the near vicinity. Of course there were others who would bend over backward and understand someone doesn't want to drop 2Gs or more for an office headphone setup.

As an aside... while the Elac Adente's sounded quite nice... it's the first time I've heard and of the Elacs... The F5s for under $600 for a pair is pretty sweet...  I concur with Vinnie Rossi/Spatial room... and while the room sounded quite nice... at the end of the day, it was a rather "simple" setup that was much appreciated.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 9 Oct 2017, 10:21 pm
Hi Tyson, thanks for the reviews, was wondering if you got a chance to hear the new Ryan s840 floorstander?

I'll point you to this bit in my original post:

Now, before you ask, I'll tell you up front.  I went into every single room at RMAF and I spent at least one hour in every room thoroughly evaluating every aspect of performance.  The systems that were good, I took a quick picture of.  ALL of the other systems sounded shitty.  So if you don't see your favorite vendor pictured below, well you can guess what I thought of it. 

I should probably point out that the above is a bald faced lie - there's 140 rooms at RMAF, so spending an hour in each one is an absurd impossibility.  Now, having said that:  no I did not hear the Ryan S840 speakers.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Delta77 on 9 Oct 2017, 10:24 pm
Good job Tyson..
You sound as if you gave your OPINION , as you saw IT..
That’s exactly what I want to read..
Even though my feelings are a little bruised , (no coverage on TEKTON)..
I’ll just have to get over it ..
Again Good Job , not everybody has the guts to write a review..

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: studiotech on 9 Oct 2017, 11:18 pm
Thanks for these great photos, very nice job boys.
These grids are for protection purposes only when the speakers are not in use :o

Incorrect.  The drivers are pure beryllium and you don't wanna get near it.  See the description on this page.

http://persona.paradigm.com/persona/

Greg
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: studiotech on 9 Oct 2017, 11:24 pm
"Oh man, I haven't heard Paradigm speakers in years, time to give them another shot.  How did they sound?  Oh they sounded like someone put a big mesh grill in front of the drivers.  How does this even get out of the brainstorming stage?"

Never heard these things and I've got no beef in the game, but I think it's unfair to make that judgement about Paradigm.  They do more science based  R&D than most of the higher priced boutique loudspeakers that are out there and  this speaker appears to be a huge value for the tech you get.  I'd be highly surprised if what you heard was an artifact from the grills.

Edit to add:  I wanted to actually say thanks for the report.  I love these no opinions spared, first hand reports, but in many cases judgments are made unfairly, blaming one particular item in the system, when no one has the capability to isolate that item to see if it goes away.  It's really just a best guess, sometimes correct and sometimes completely wrong.

Greg
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 10 Oct 2017, 12:52 am
"Oh man, I haven't heard Paradigm speakers in years, time to give them another shot.  How did they sound?  Oh they sounded like someone put a big mesh grill in front of the drivers.  How does this even get out of the brainstorming stage?"

Never heard these things and I've got no beef in the game, but I think it's unfair to make that judgement about Paradigm.  They do more science based  R&D than most of the higher priced boutique loudspeakers that are out there and  this speaker appears to be a huge value for the tech you get.  I'd be highly surprised if what you heard was an artifact from the grills.

Edit to add:  I wanted to actually say thanks for the report.  I love these no opinions spared, first hand reports, but in many cases judgments are made unfairly, blaming one particular item in the system, when no one has the capability to isolate that item to see if it goes away.  It's really just a best guess, sometimes correct and sometimes completely wrong.

Greg

Sure, in the end its a biased opinion based on less than ideal listening conditions.  On the other hand, with all that science they are renowned for, you'd think they'd at least be competent selecting matching components and setting it up in the room.  I mean, building a great speaker is a whole lot more complicated than getting a good setup in the room.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Phil A on 10 Oct 2017, 02:17 am
Thanks for the coverage
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: ebag4 on 10 Oct 2017, 02:29 am
Thanks for the coverage Tyson, I enjoyed it as always.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: studiotech on 10 Oct 2017, 02:30 am
Sure, in the end its a biased opinion based on less than ideal listening conditions.  On the other hand, with all that science they are renowned for, you'd think they'd at least be competent selecting matching components and setting it up in the room.  I mean, building a great speaker is a whole lot more complicated than getting a good setup in the room.

Yeah, you got me there, Tyson.  The two serious reviews I've seen though are stellar and the one coming from Jeff of Ultra Audio, carry's a lot of weight for me personally.  He's a straight shooter if you've followed his articles and blog posts.

Anyway, thanks again.  It's always fun hearing from the troops on the ground.

Greg
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Brettio on 10 Oct 2017, 02:32 am
Thanks for the review and your honest assessment of what you liked and didn’t.

Brett
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: dB Cooper on 10 Oct 2017, 02:38 am

Skull shaped headphone amp for $14,000!  I kid you not.  Holy crap what is wrong with this hobby?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1510.jpg)


A lot.
I think I'll buy a high-quality acrylic skull from Anatomical Chart Co. for $89 and start building O2  boards into them....
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: mresseguie on 10 Oct 2017, 04:49 am
Tyson,

Thank you for your thoughts. For 5 years now I've dreamed of attending RMAF, but I think I'm not missing out now. I get quite a lot at the Taipei shows each winter. Someday, I hope to make it to one of the big shows in China.

Michael
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: HAL on 10 Oct 2017, 01:10 pm
Tyson,
Was great to see you, woodsyi, Pez and the rest of the group at the show.  Love the coverage as always. 

We share a like for open baffle speakers, so that helps with what to seek out.

Rich
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: rockadanny on 10 Oct 2017, 01:37 pm
Quote
but I think it's unfair to make that judgement about Paradigm

I don't think it is ever "unfair" for a non-professional reviewer to share their experiences/opinions without regard to anything/anyone:
1. Manufacturers/Distributors roll the dice when they participate in events such as this, so they'd better work to get their systems sounding as they think they should, or pull the plug and display a static setup.
2. When reading reports such as this, from a non-pro reviewer/consumer, I appreciate reading what they experienced when they walked in the door and plopped down in the sweet spot, without filtration or excuses as to what they heard. If I want to read about how a specific gear is SUPPOSED to sound or WHY it sounds the way it does, I'll refer to a brochure or pro-review.
3. Regardless of the cost or scientific effort spent in designing/manufacturing gear, if the listener dislikes like how it sounds then the efforts to produce the gear are meaningless to the listener.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: orientalexpress on 10 Oct 2017, 02:19 pm
Thank you :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: rklein on 10 Oct 2017, 04:26 pm
Thanks for the coverage and pics.   :thumb:

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: nature boy on 10 Oct 2017, 04:29 pm
Thanks Tyson.

NB
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 10 Oct 2017, 04:50 pm
I don't think it is ever "unfair" for a non-professional reviewer to share their experiences/opinions without regard to anything/anyone:
1. Manufacturers/Distributors roll the dice when they participate in events such as this, so they'd better work to get their systems sounding as they think they should, or pull the plug and display a static setup.
2. When reading reports such as this, from a non-pro reviewer/consumer, I appreciate reading what they experienced when they walked in the door and plopped down in the sweet spot, without filtration or excuses as to what they heard. If I want to read about how a specific gear is SUPPOSED to sound or WHY it sounds the way it does, I'll refer to a brochure or pro-review.
3. Regardless of the cost or scientific effort spent in designing/manufacturing gear, if the listener dislikes like how it sounds then the efforts to produce the gear are meaningless to the listener.

Exactly right.  Every year when Jason and I did show coverage, the manufacturers would try to explain in technical terms the magic going on inside their boxes.  Everyone had a 'compelling reason' why their gear was amazing.  In truth most of it was just meh.  So pretty quickly, this became a good example of what happened when a vendor tried to give us technical info:

(https://consciouscompanion2012.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/blahblah_gary-larson-ginger-dog-what-dogs-hear.jpg)

In the end, we found zero correlation between how compelling the jargon was and the sound of the system.  Same with price - very low correlation between price and performance. 
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Oct 2017, 05:20 pm
Same with price - very low correlation between price and performance.
Glad you came to this conclusion :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Brettio on 10 Oct 2017, 05:25 pm
"very low correlation between price and performance."

That's gonna bruise more than a few egos...
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Early B. on 10 Oct 2017, 06:06 pm
Same with price - very low correlation between price and performance.

A few years ago, I attended my one and only audio show, and the second best sounding system was all Emotiva gear, including their speakers. That's when I realized that the high cost gear was pretty, but didn't necessarily sound better. The best sounding system wasn't even remotely practical; it contained stackable subs the size of submarines.   
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Wind Chaser on 10 Oct 2017, 08:16 pm
Is it fair or even realistic to expect great sound at a trade show?  :scratch:

It takes me several weeks just to get a pair speakers optimized in a room. So brief impression based on a quick and dirty haphazard setup isn't something I'd put a lot of stock in. However, I still appreciate the time and effort taken to report on this event for those of us who could not, or did not attend.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: vinyl_lady on 10 Oct 2017, 09:04 pm
Here is a pic of the Daedalus, ModWright, WyWires room

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169682)

and the Daedalus, ModWright, Skogrand room.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169679)

Both rooms sounded very good. The rebuilt Technics R to R by J-Corder is a spectacular source.

On Saturday in the big room, we compared the hi res digital with QRP's 45 RPM reissue of Stevie Ray Vaughan's Tin Pan Alley. WOW! the vinyl was jaw dropping good and clearly better than the digital. Lots of fun and great seeing and spending time with so many great audio friends.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 10 Oct 2017, 09:33 pm
Is it fair or even realistic to expect great sound at a trade show?  :scratch:

It takes me several weeks just to get a pair speakers optimized in a room. So brief impression based on a quick and dirty haphazard setup isn't something I'd put a lot of stock in. However, I still appreciate the time and effort taken to report on this event for those of us who could not, or did not attend.  :thumb:

That's a good point.  The counter point that I'd make is that there are plenty of people that get very good and even great sound at shows.  And many of those people get good/great sound consistently, year after year.  I've noticed that the mediocre/bad rooms also tend to be consistently mediocre/bad year over year, too.  Sometimes the quality will bounce around a bit, but for the most part it seems pretty consistent.  I will say this though - vendors do learn and get better after a few years.  There are fewer and fewer really terrible sounding rooms each year. 
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 10 Oct 2017, 09:36 pm
Here is a pic of the Daedalus, ModWright, WyWires room

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169682)

and the Daedalus, ModWright, Skogrand room.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169679)

Both rooms sounded very good. The rebuilt Technics R to R by J-Corder is a spectacular source.

On Saturday in the big room, we compared the hi res digital with QRP's 45 RPM reissue of Stevie Ray Vaughan's Tin Pan Alley. WOW! the vinyl was jaw dropping good and clearly better than the digital. Lots of fun and great seeing and spending time with so many great audio friends.

Thanks Laura - another 2 rooms I stupidly forgot to take pictures in.  Guess I was enjoying the tunes too much :)  I will say this, the Apollo speakers have replaced the Athenas as my favorite Daedalus speakers.  Loved those things.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: DaveC113 on 10 Oct 2017, 09:47 pm
That's a good point.  The counter point that I'd make is that there are plenty of people that get very good and even great sound at shows.  And many of those people get good/great sound consistently, year after year.  I've noticed that the mediocre/bad rooms also tend to be consistently mediocre/bad year over year, too.  Sometimes the quality will bounce around a bit, but for the most part it seems pretty consistent.  I will say this though - vendors do learn and get better after a few years.  There are fewer and fewer really terrible sounding rooms each year.

Oh yeah... the first years of RMAF were incredibly bad. Not just setup, there was some really poorly designed gear that would never sound good. Both gear and setup has gotten so much better!

I still agree with WC though, and imo the really good sounding expensive rooms completely destroy the idea that lower priced gear is just as good. Like the MSB DAC room, sorry but that's just not achievable without a big wallet, same with Verity Audio... you're never getting results like that on a budget. And a lot more gear is capable of similarly amazing performance but for whatever reason it's just not achieved at the show with hours to setup. Of course you can say the same with less expensive gear but comparing the best $$$$ rooms to the best $ rooms leaves a pretty wide gap imo.

OTOH, it is amazing how good the "value" segment is getting, which is definitely something to celebrate.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: vinyl_lady on 10 Oct 2017, 09:51 pm
Thanks Laura - another 2 rooms I stupidly forgot to take pictures in.  Guess I was enjoying the tunes too much :)  I will say this, the Apollo speakers have replaced the Athenas as my favorite Daedalus speakers.  Loved those things.

The Apollos sounded great. I thought they sounded better than the Zeus until Lou, Dan and Alex swapped out some tubes and put the big Phillips rectifier tubes in. On Saturday afternoon, after the tube swap, the Zeus powered by Dan's Ambrose 30W tube mono blocks had the best Daedalus sound I have heard. I'm going to have to find time to hear the Apollo 11s which have two offset tweeters, 2 mids and the 10" woofer.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: nature boy on 10 Oct 2017, 10:20 pm
Thanks Laura - another 2 rooms I stupidly forgot to take pictures in.  Guess I was enjoying the tunes too much :)  I will say this, the Apollo speakers have replaced the Athenas as my favorite Daedalus speakers.  Loved those things.

Tyson, you and me both loving the Apollo speakers.  Looking forward to giving them a long listen at CAF.

NB
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: vinyl_lady on 10 Oct 2017, 10:34 pm
Tyson, you and me both loving the Apollo speakers.  Looking forward to giving them a long listen at CAF.

NB

I know Lou is going to debut the Apollo 11s at CAF, Not sure if he also is bringing the Apollos.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Gopher on 11 Oct 2017, 02:36 pm
Salk/Lampizator room.  Flat out the BEST I have ever heard the Salk speakers.  Great, great room.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_1506.jpg)


Thanks for the recognition, man!  We had a good thing going with Salk and Wywires (and Lou's Daedalus DiDs) and will definitely be teaming up again in the future. 

It was cool seeing you there and I agree with your overall assessment of the show. 

Fred

P.S.  I've gotta ask...   did I pass the introvert test?   :lol:

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: mresseguie on 11 Oct 2017, 03:02 pm
I'm personally (and selfishly) delighted that the Apollo speakers get such high approval.

I wish the Zeus and Apollo 11s had been ready a few months ago when Aldcol and I visited Lou's shop. I'll listen someday, I suppose.

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: witchdoctor on 11 Oct 2017, 03:17 pm
Oh yeah... the first years of RMAF were incredibly bad. Not just setup, there was some really poorly designed gear that would never sound good. Both gear and setup has gotten so much better!

I still agree with WC though, and imo the really good sounding expensive rooms completely destroy the idea that lower priced gear is just as good. Like the MSB DAC room, sorry but that's just not achievable without a big wallet, same with Verity Audio... you're never getting results like that on a budget. And a lot more gear is capable of similarly amazing performance but for whatever reason it's just not achieved at the show with hours to setup. Of course you can say the same with less expensive gear but comparing the best $$$$ rooms to the best $ rooms leaves a pretty wide gap imo.

OTOH, it is amazing how good the "value" segment is getting, which is definitely something to celebrate.

Your comments about expensive gear reveal the weakness of 2 channel stereo, it costs too damn much to achieve SOA results, period. If you want a GREAT value setup I recommend two things:

1) An immersive sound system designed for music first and movies second (auro 3D or sennheiser ambeo.)
2) Active speakers.

When you have more than 9 speakers in your setup running extra amps and speaker wire is expensive and a PIA. Active speakers are easier to setup, and have the benefits of an active crossover.

IMO a properly setup $10,000 immersive system would produce results that are impossible to achieve with a two channel setup regardless of $$$$ spent. Check out Pink Floyd and Abbey Road. You don't need 8 subwoofers but you get the idea. Active speakers all around and immersive setup:

https://youtu.be/yMlFN8V4qW4
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: witchdoctor on 11 Oct 2017, 03:21 pm
I think the problem with a LOT of immersive audio systems is that they use receivers. I think there is no way a receiver can give you the transparency of a good preamp/processor. However receivers offer a great bang for the buck if budget is an issue.

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: DaveC113 on 11 Oct 2017, 03:42 pm
Your comments about expensive gear reveal the weakness of 2 channel stereo, it costs too damn much to achieve SOA results, period. If you want a GREAT value setup I recommend two things:

1) An immersive sound system designed for music first and movies second (auro 3D or sennheiser ambeo.)
2) Active speakers.

When you have more than 9 speakers in your setup running extra amps and speaker wire is expensive and a PIA. Active speakers are easier to setup, and have the benefits of an active crossover.

IMO a properly setup $10,000 immersive system would produce results that are impossible to achieve with a two channel setup regardless of $$$$ spent. Check out Pink Floyd and Abbey Road. You don't need 8 subwoofers but you get the idea. Active speakers all around and immersive setup:

https://youtu.be/yMlFN8V4qW4

I did hear the ELAC Atmos demo with $4200 worth of ELAC speakers and it was VERY impressive! It ultimately doesn't have the refinement, resolution, etc of a high end system but I'd love to have it for movies.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: roscoe65 on 11 Oct 2017, 03:51 pm
Witchdoctor,

We all know your feelings about multichannel and MQA.  Literally every thread and comment from you talks about these and nothing else.

You may want to take a step back and assess the typical member of this forum:  one who enjoys music, listens primarily to two-channel, and who has typically committed years if not decades of research, experimentation and plain old trial-and-error to get great sound.  Most of us do not hold up multichannel as superior to well-produced two-channel while many of us enjoy multichannel in a HT/Music environment.

I enjoy immersive sound (Atmos in my case) and agree that in a HT (or mutichannel mastered music) environment the height channels work well to increase the sense of space during reproduction.  However, this pales in comparison to the sound I get from my two channel both in the same room and in a second system in another room.  Your own system is nice but somewhat modest, and more importantly set up primarily for multichannel.  Your room is untreated and your system likely relies too much on DSP for room correction.  Comparing two-channel with multichannel in your system will likely reveal that multichannel sounds superior to your ears.  In a room with room treatments, better sources, better amplification, and better speakers you may find the opposite to be true.

While all of us enjoy a lively back and forth, you have a habit of highjacking every thread with your assertions of how much better it would be with MQA or multichannel.  It has become tiresome to me and likely a few others.  More importantly, this has become accompanied more recently with hostility toward other members and rudeness to the industry members/sponsors.

There are a number of HT-focused forums in which you can discuss Aura 3D ad nauseaum.  This is not one of them.  You've probably experienced that when other members don't respond to these discussion topics.  Most of us don't have to bump our topics to keep people reading them.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: jseymour on 11 Oct 2017, 03:57 pm
+1
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: S Clark on 11 Oct 2017, 03:57 pm
Roscoe beat me to it, but I'll post anyway
...IMO ...
Tyson is giving us his report of what he heard- good and bad, and you go off on your pitch.  Were you there at RMAF?  If so, enlighten us. 
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: witchdoctor on 11 Oct 2017, 04:00 pm
Roscoe beat me to it, but I'll post anywayTyson is giving us his report of what he heard- good and bad, and you go off on your pitch.  Were you there at RMAF?  If so, enlighten us.

You are right, new thread started:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153182.msg1637110#new
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: FullRangeMan on 11 Oct 2017, 04:08 pm
+1
+2
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 11 Oct 2017, 04:14 pm
Witchdoctor,

We all know your feelings about multichannel and MQA......

Re: immersive sound & witchdoctor, to quote from Hamlet - "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".  :D



P.S.  I've gotta ask...   did I pass the introvert test?   :lol:


I think you were one of the few that passed :P
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Wind Chaser on 11 Oct 2017, 05:07 pm
+2

+3

I'm getting sick and tired of this shit.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: roscoe65 on 11 Oct 2017, 05:47 pm
I did hear the ELAC Atmos demo with $4200 worth of ELAC speakers and it was VERY impressive! It ultimately doesn't have the refinement, resolution, etc of a high end system but I'd love to have it for movies.

This is a valid statement.  The Elac system, along with a $800 Marantz SR6011 would be a better system at $5,000 than most people will ever hear in their lives, for HT or movies.  However, it is rare that we compare apples-to-apples.  This system is the HT equivalent of a $1,500 two-channel system.  I would say a typical two-channel rig for most AC members hovers around the $10-20K retail level.  The HT equivalent might be closer to $25-50K.

Multichannel adds expense and complexity if we maintain equivalent quality to our two-channel rigs.  This is aside from signal processing.  Where a two-channel rig is mostly constrained to D/A conversion, equalization and bass management, multichannel is now applying processing to manage as many as 11 discrete channels plus LFE channels.

Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Tyson on 11 Oct 2017, 06:09 pm
This is a valid statement.  The Elac system, along with a $800 Marantz SR6011 would be a better system at $5,000 than most people will ever hear in their lives, for HT or movies.  However, it is rare that we compare apples-to-apples.  This system is the HT equivalent of a $1,500 two-channel system.  I would say a typical two-channel rig for most AC members hovers around the $10-20K retail level.  The HT equivalent might be closer to $25-50K.

Multichannel adds expense and complexity if we maintain equivalent quality to our two-channel rigs.  This is aside from signal processing.  Where a two-channel rig is mostly constrained to D/A conversion, equalization and bass management, multichannel is now applying processing to manage as many as 11 discrete channels plus LFE channels.


This is quite true.  IMO the first rule of audio is "do no harm".  2 channel with minimal processing and high quality components gets you the best sound.  I've heard high quality multichannel (native DSD multichannel, in fact) and meh.  I keep coming back to stereo.  Multichannel (even high quality multichannel) is just not interesting to me.
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: rpf on 11 Oct 2017, 07:39 pm
Thanks for the coverage Tyson. 
Title: Re: Tyson's half-assed RMAF 2017 coverage
Post by: Odal3 on 12 Oct 2017, 01:40 am
Glad to see that you shared your impressions again!  Thank you  :thumb: