Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps

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catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #180 on: 1 Oct 2022, 12:03 am »
Interesting conversation. Reminds me of a Stereophile op-ed piece some years ago concerning audiophiles - some are "levelers" and some are "sharpeners" (to the best of my recollection).  Some of you may recall - essentially, if memory serves, some audiophiles find various aspects, properties, qualities, etc., significant and attention-worthy while levelers tend not to concern themselves to the same degree.  Regarding the 24/7 on status, Tom Rost responded,

"Leaving these and other amplifiers in all the time just causes wear on power supply capacitors... just like any other amp. These amps come up to stable temps very fast... not like tube gear or older types of amps that have to be on for long periods to stabilize. There is a reason most amps have 12 volt triggers so the amps are only running when in use."

I have confirmed that the amps come "on" very quickly, i.e., within moments they seem to achieve sonic stability.

Regarding the speaker binding posts, unlike a previous posting, if I understood it correctly, I've had no difficulty whatsoever inserting bananas.  I have changed out speaker binding posts in the past but these posts, from Eastern Europe, seemed structurally unsound.  The posts on the MiniGans appear sufficiently robust even if one uses spades. I know because I tried spades and was able to achieve a very tight fit. Tom indicates the posts are gold plated so while they might not meet the manufacturing standard of WBT they appear wholly sufficient to the task. Does installing more expensive posts have any impact on sound quality?  That's a more difficult contention to sustain in this case.

The comments on the ferromagnetic casement are interesting.  I'm wondering what is the potential impact of a ferromagnetic casement without even considering the degree of ferromagnetism, etc.  Is there any literature suggesting that, when using a GanFet circuit topology,  ferromagnetic casement negatively affects the amp's performance?  Some internet denizens have noted,

"electronics create EM fields around them and magnets usually interfere with that. Interfering with your audio equipment could only cause feedback or distortion in the best case..."  (I note here that Tom indicates TD is less than .006% so distortion ought not be an issue.)

Others have noted, regarding magnets in close proximity to audio circuits,

"I've been an electronic tech over 45 years. The advice given is well intentioned but there's there's in that preamp that can be damaged by magnet in a simple amp circuit like that. Look at all the radios, TV's Combo amps, Studio monitors with huge speaker magnets inside them. Its not something that influences the parts in an amplifier."  (Certainly, the sound quality of the MiniGans suggests that whatever the ferromagnetic "interference" may be present, it doesn't seem to manifest in any audible way. Perhaps it's total absence would be audible... Unknown.)

In all, I wonder at the legitimacy of the concerns voiced about the Class D Audio amps.  Having been in this pursuit for over 40 years, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  But, as NewZoo concludes, it should be the sound quality that matters most.   Now using the upgraded MiniGans and I find them, again, amazing. Too early for me to say whether they are more musical than their immediate ancestor but, regardless, they sound extraordinary.  Listening to Johnny Griffen, XRCD, The Kerry Dancers, and the right M3 has transformed into a sax - it's no longer a speaker.
« Last Edit: 1 Oct 2022, 01:14 am by catluck »

Early B.

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #181 on: 1 Oct 2022, 01:05 am »
The Mini GaN5 is phenomenal at its price point -- no debate there. And its build quality is consistent with the price point. Can it sound a whole lot better with higher quality parts -- of course it can! But let's face it -- most of us bought it because it was relatively inexpensive. As consumers, we do it all the time -- buy a less expensive product and then complain that it doesn't have premium parts and features.   

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #182 on: 1 Oct 2022, 01:19 am »
Early B - I respectfully disagree with your claim that with more expensive parts "of course it can" sound better.  I have far more expensive amps and the MiniGan outperforms them musically. FULL STOP. I didn't buy the MiniGans because they were "cheap" or less expensive. I bought them solely to try them out and, as it turns out, they simply out-perform my expensive tube amps. Likewise, the SS amps I've used on the M3's (Sim Audio Moon, Pass Aleph 0 monos and Levinson).  If I didn't think their sound was superior I would have returned them to Class D Audio.  I have no interest in owing amps whose sound qualities I find less than wholly compelling. I don't care that they might be less expensive. Reminds me of the saying, "if the first watt sounds like shit why follow it with 199 more?"  Price had no influence on my choice whatsoever.  Either these amps were sonically compelling, as Tom promised, or they weren't.  If not, I don't want them.  Claims that more expensive parts, beyond a level of sufficiency in parts choice, make for better sound must be proven not simply asserted.  Obviously, the MiniGans parts choice is sufficient.  And, again, I say that with respect and humility. I've just witnessed too many meritless claims in audio over the last 40 years.  BTW, the Orchard Audio Starkrimsons, which I just auditioned, have very high quality speaker binding posts and, I suppose, a non-ferromagnetic casement (I think binding posts are WBT).  I returned them and kept the MiniGans.  FWIW

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #183 on: 1 Oct 2022, 01:47 am »
 :D interesting thread indeed.  My big old Pass 250 is giving my trouble. The 100 pound beast isn't happy when cold till about 5 hours of warming.  This 5 pound amp is that good ? Will they drive a pair of ProAc D48's ? 
     Would mono's be better for tough loads ? Class D sure is kicking up some dust for sure. 🎶🎶🎶🎶👍

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #184 on: 1 Oct 2022, 01:57 am »
2Bigears - contact the GanFet manufacturer of your choice and ask about your speaks.  For certain, Tom Rost at Class D Audio and Leo Ayzhenstat (sp?) at Orchard Audio will prove very accommodating and responsive. They have 15 day trial periods so you've got little to lose. You may find, like me, GanFet (not MOSFET class D) based circuits are the new kid on the block and for good reason. AGD and Atma-Sphere also do GanFet but their offerings are vastly more expensive, lower powered, and no trial period that I'm aware of.

Early B.

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #185 on: 1 Oct 2022, 01:59 am »
Early B - I respectfully disagree with your claim that with more expensive parts "of course it can" sound better. 

I was simply saying that you can take virtually any product and make it better with better parts.

You've made it quite clear that you love these amps. In fact, your enthusiasm is the reason I bought mine, but I grabbed it mainly for the price. The reason for the purchase doesn't matter -- I'm keeping it because it sounds better than what I had, same as you.       

morganc

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #186 on: 1 Oct 2022, 04:59 am »
Great conversation guys.  I’m stoked to have one landing here Monday.  I still have some speaker positioning and bass management work to do and am gonna get all that done to see what all the fuss is about.  Got any favorite songs that really come to life with the Spatial/Gan combo? 

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #187 on: 1 Oct 2022, 12:23 pm »
Morganc - what are your favored musical genres? I can only contribute jazz titles. But there are many here who know classical, rock, etc.  Make your preference known and you'll be rewarded.

morganc

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #188 on: 1 Oct 2022, 03:04 pm »
I love jazz, vocalists, rock, Indie and much more.  From Billie Eilish to Melody Gardot to Victor Wooten to Radiohead to David Grisman. 

Mr. Big

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #189 on: 1 Oct 2022, 03:28 pm »
I was simply saying that you can take virtually any product and make it better with better parts.

You've made it quite clear that you love these amps. Your enthusiasm is the reason I bought mine, but I grabbed it mainly for the price. The reason for the purchase doesn't matter -- I'm keeping it because it sounds better than what I had, same as you.       

The use of better parts does not mean better sonics. I worked for Sony, so any design and components used in that design are based on the circuit and voiced with the parts used in that design. You add say a part that passes high frequency better say like a dale metal film and you replace all the cheaper ones with these, well you will hear a lot more highs and you just destroyed to the audio balance of the unit because the circuit was not designed with the metal films in mind.  This goes for crossovers in speakers the parts chosen are chosen to work with the type of drivers used and voicing start messing with the crossover and you change the house sound of the speakers as designed, now you may like it more for your taste or then you might not. Yes, you can change the sound by swapping parts in and out, but the best parts ever made still depends on how the designer chooses to use them in their designs and where they choose to use them. I heard mods turn good units into sounding like a receiver with the treble turned up, the guy who modded said oh, well I took out the bass hump, how many times I've heard that in my 40 years. No, what you did was throw off the balance as designed in the unit. The circuit was not designed for the "better" expensive parts and their different impact on that circuit design. I don't like the sound of something I don't keep it or I will sell it but never toss the dice and have someone mod it  because that is like buying a new piece of gear, no different, you really have no way of knowing if you will like what the modder likes. I trust Sony, Nelson Pass etc knows more than a guy who does mods as a business and I am sure they have good intentions. 

Early B.

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #190 on: 1 Oct 2022, 04:48 pm »
The use of better parts does not mean better sonics.

If you know what you're doing, better parts mean better sonics. Many manufacturers design and sell premium versions for this reason.

A few days ago, I upgraded the caps in my crossovers. Do my speakers sound better? Of course they do! This upgrade had nothing to do with the design or the designer. Voicing is nearly always based on a price point, so designers select the "best" components from a limited budget. I'm not suggesting that ALL upgrades produce better sonics, but one's personal experience dictates what will likely result in a significant improvement.
 
   

Tyson

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  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #191 on: 1 Oct 2022, 05:18 pm »
Removing crap from the signal path and using better quality parts almost always gives me better sound.

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #192 on: 4 Oct 2022, 04:45 pm »
The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks (with WBT binding posts) hit 150 hours of break-in this morning, and the sound opened up and relaxed a bit more. Although further improvements may come, I think there is plenty to comment on at this point.

In brief, the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are better in every respect than the Pass Labs XA-25, and I plan to happily keep them.

Room and equipment: The room is 18’ x 14’ and I sit 8’ from the M3 Sapphires which are 8’ apart and 3’ from the wall behind them. Roon ROCK NUC --> Anticables USB --> Holo May KTE DAC --> Anticables XLR --> Holo Serene KTE Pre-amp --> Anticables XLR --> Mini GaN 5 Monoblocks --> Anticables Level 4.2 Flex speaker cables --> Spatial M3 Sapphires.

Break-in: Turning the amps off for at least 30 minutes twice per day seemed to help break-in noticeably. I’ve seen amp manufacturers comment that letting the capacitors charge, run, and discharge helps them settle in. It seems to be the case with these amps as well. In the first 80 hours, the sound was vivid and revealing, but after 80 hours it became more cohesive, and each day after the 80-hour mark the sound has opened up and relaxed more without losing the exceptional resolution and tone. I don’t know that break-in is completely done, but it is on par so far with other amps I’ve had. With highly resolving speakers like the Sapphires, the changes are substantive during break-in.

[N.B. All listening was done with the dB matched using two reference tones and a stand-alone dB meter. This resulted in turning down the pre-amp from -28 to -39 going from the XA-25 to the Mini GaN 5s. After early break-in at the medium gain setting, I adjusted the Mini GaN 5s to the low gain setting, which is only 2 dB less than the medium setting. There seems to be no reason to use more gain than the lowest setting with the M3 Sapphires.]

Sound: The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks seem to be the best amps that I have heard in any system that I have owned, but I can only legitimately compare them to the Pass Labs XA-25 and, indirectly, to the Benchmark AHB2 that the Pass Labs XA-25 replaced. The XA-25 provided more detail and bass extension and texture/resolution than the AHB2. The XA-25 was, to put a meaningless number to it, 40% better than the AHB2. The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are 80% better than the XA-25: the step up from the XA-25 to the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks is twice as significant as the very clear step up from the AHB2 to the XA-25.

Across the board, the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are exceptionally resolving: a clear and natural portrayal of details in every track I played, without any hint of tipped up treble creating just an illusion of detail. The sound is not at all fatiguing, and the instruments have realistic body and timbre. The ability of the amp to keep track of every detail in the recordings leads to benefits in the range of things that make music alive and palpable: timbre, soundstage depth and width, harmonics and transients, bass heft and texture, and musicality.

Compared to the XA-25, bass with the Mini GaN 5’s is more textured, controlled, slightly deeper, and realistic. In listening to jazz, for example, there were several instances where I heard for the first time the musician bending the strings on the upright bass to shift the note. It’s a revelation to hear those kinds of subtleties that bring you closer to the live performance. This happened repeatedly. I could track deep bass from beginning to end in songs where it had previously seemed to be there only in one or two passages. And in recordings with a lot of well-recorded bass, like the American Beauty soundtrack, the Mini GaN 5’s provided better tone and more texture than the XA-25. It was not even close.

In the midrange the Mini GaN 5’s provided the subtlety of detail that makes vocals palpable and real, and, depending on the recording, intimate. In comparison, the XA-25 has a bit of sheen in the vocal range that tends to mask the finest subtleties and make some vocals a bit dusted in grit—a very fine grit, definitely, but when it is gone the absence is quite noticeable. The ability of the Mini GaN 5’s to reveal details in the recording gives instruments a very real and natural timbre and conveys the three-dimensional sense of the instrument having a shape and body better than the XA-25.

The Mini GaN 5’s certainly have nothing to do with thin, dry, or clinical sound. The Mini GaN 5’s add no brightness to the upper midrange, and they improve on the XA-25s in playing recordings that may have some inherent brightness. By cleaning up the subtle hash or grunge in the sound, the brightness in some recordings becomes more musical and less offensive.

In the treble the Mini GaN 5’s resolve things that are a bit confused and fuzzed by comparison in the XA-25. On one jazz recording, the sound that I had always assumed was a bit of hiss on the analogue tape turned out to be the drummer brushing on a snare off to his right. This sort of revelation was commonplace as I listened to hours of music that I was familiar with. Never once was the treble harsh or fatiguing, and, like the bass and midrange, I found surprises in new details in track after track.

The soundstage and imaging are both exceptional. The Mini GaN 5s are able to reproduce the fine spatial cues that allow the Sapphires to define a deep and wide soundstage when it is in the recording. The Sapphires disappear easily, and instruments extend back several feet and beyond the left/right edges of the speakers. The image is very stable, and the focus allowed me to see a musician, like a saxophone player, moving on stage. He was not just playing 3 feet deep and 2 feet in from the left speaker—he was moving side to side a couple of feet during his solo. Compared to the XA-25, the soundstage and imaging from the Mini GaN 5s simply opened up a new level of natural realism.

The exceptional, natural resolution of the Mini Gan 5’s allows the communication between musicians to come through more clearly. Being able to hear the string section in an orchestra have a call and response with the woodwinds buried deeply in the recording is the kind of thing that makes the Mini GaN 5’s such a revelation. The technical promise of higher switching speed in a GaN FET does not appear to be just something for electrical engineers to appreciate on a spec sheet or the test bench. It’s not just an issue of reducing the size of the device or significantly improving efficiency or lowering costs. GaN FETs, or at least this implementation of them, do seem to open up new horizons for reproducing real, palpable music still hiding in recordings, even those from more than half a century ago.

I don’t know how much more one would have to spend to get a better amp than the Mini GaN 5 monblocks. Perhaps the AHB2 and the XA-25 were not optimal matches to the Sapphires, and there are other Class A or Class A/B amps in the $3-5k price range that are on par with the Mini GaN 5’s. It seems unlikely, however.

I think the limiting factor at this point could be the M3 Sapphires. The AMT mid/tweeter and faster bass/sub drivers in the X series could possibly allow even more of the music from the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks to come through. The M3 Sapphires sound glorious with them, however, so it’s not a serious concern at this point.

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #193 on: 4 Oct 2022, 05:33 pm »
 :D hummmm, so you like them ? One question though. Do you need to go mono, or is one just as good ?  I just might bite on these little gems. My 100 pound Pass is old and needs a day to warm up. And it's dedicated power plant.   :D

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #194 on: 4 Oct 2022, 05:47 pm »
Quote
Do you need to go mono, or is one just as good ?

I have no idea. I only tried to monoblocks, and only with the WBT binding posts. I can't say whether the stock Mini GaN 5 would be appreciably less capable. I would expect that the lion's share of what I like would still be there.

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #195 on: 4 Oct 2022, 05:53 pm »
 :D WBT posts ? Ya list me. Is this an option or did you mod them ?  :D

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #196 on: 4 Oct 2022, 06:17 pm »
:D WBT posts ? Ya list me. Is this an option or did you mod them ?  :D

In e-mail with Class D Audio, they offered to install WBT binding posts if I sent them. It's not an option when ordering on their website. I just go in touch with them via the e-mail on their site and asked a few questions and expressed concern about the stock binding posts. My sense was they don't share those concerns but they didn't mind accommodating them.

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #197 on: 4 Oct 2022, 06:29 pm »
 :D ok. 730.01 part # .... they are about 300 bucks. Connectivity is big with watt transfer. Wondering now ?   Looking into a price for the monos with the good posts.  Sell the big 100 pound beast.  :D

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #198 on: 4 Oct 2022, 07:08 pm »
I got the WBT-0708Cu Nextgen Economy Binding Posts. It looked to be the same copper as the more expensive versions from WBT with a smaller knob. I just wanted to be sure that they didn't have trouble fitting the big knob version. However, I have no idea if that would have been a concern.

These were $41 each plus shipping from Madisound.






newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #199 on: 4 Oct 2022, 07:20 pm »
Also, if you do go this route, you might double check that you order two red and two black binding posts.

The back panel of the amp is clearly labeled "L" and "R" so it's not a big issue if you get four black binding posts like I did, but it's nice to have them color coded so possible errors in connecting things are minimized.