AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: bh46118 on 3 May 2016, 12:46 am
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I understand that many new reinvented audio wheels have come down the pike over the years with varying degrees of acceptance or usefulness, but this one looks like it's on its way if it can do anything close to what Robert Harley claims. Can the DAC in my IDA-16 be made to decode MQA with a software upgrade, or will it take a new external DAC ?
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I would doubt seriously that Jason or any other CEO is going to sign a licensing agreement with Meridian for a long time down the road for MQA. For now you have to use their products, but I would wait for a while and see if this is just another of their good ideas that never takes off. Wouldn't be the first. You need to remember that Harley will tout just about anything. Need to count the ad pages in the magazine and consider that along with his opinions.
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JackD,
I've owned a Mytek Brooklyn DAC for almost a week and I'm convinced that the 38MB MQA file I downloaded from http://www.2l.no/hires/ sounds as good as the 298MB DSD128 file of the same song. My headphones are Audeze LCD-2's and should be more than capable of resolving the difference.
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Whether there is a difference or not is not the issue, but rather licensing fees, software and hardware upgrades and the dearth of MQA material. If companies like Nuprime and others want to deal with the issue with new products is different than retrofitting existing gear without benefit to them. It appears that Meridian uses the same "demo" tracks at every show they demo it at, so where is the material going to come from. Plus are you willing to buy yet another version of music you have bought several times already for the next "big thing?"
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I understand that many new reinvented audio wheels have come down the pike over the years with varying degrees of acceptance or usefulness, but this one looks like it's on its way if it can do anything close to what Robert Harley claims. Can the DAC in my IDA-16 be made to decode MQA with a software upgrade, or will it take a new external DAC ?
I do not believe it would be possible to do so via a software upgrade.
I completely agree with Jack. By the time there is actual MQA content available outside of one niche label, if there ever is, you should be able to decode the file via software and then output the decoded signal to your DAC which will would easily accept the signal.
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Remember these are the same guys that had the "next big thing idea" about ten years ago with DVD-A and look where that ended up. Companies like Meridian, Linn and Naim, Rega don't do anything "for the good of the music", for them it is all about licensing fees and patents. Companies like Mytek, ESS(Resonance), sOTM and others make parts they use in their own gear so they get "insider" deals on these "big things." They want to make their money back on you and I plus the rest of the hardware manufacturers.
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A good gauge of industry acceptance IME will be how many titles will be available from Tidal (reportedly is ready for release any day now). If that takes off very inexpensive MQA systems will be possible using Tidal with the tiny $300 Meridian Explorer DAC that is currently MQA ready.
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That's the scenario I'm thinking of, if you can in the fairly near future listen to thousands of song choices at previously unheard of quality from an internet source, that's not a rehash it's groundbreaking. Maybe just a pipedream, I don't know.
A good gauge of industry acceptance IME will be how many titles will be available from Tidal (reportedly is ready for release any day now). If that takes off very inexpensive MQA systems will be possible using Tidal with the tiny $300 Meridian Explorer DAC that is currently MQA ready.
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I would doubt seriously that Jason or any other CEO is going to sign a licensing agreement with Meridian for a long time down the road for MQA. For now you have to use their products, but I would wait for a while and see if this is just another of their good ideas that never takes off. Wouldn't be the first. You need to remember that Harley will tout just about anything. Need to count the ad pages in the magazine and consider that along with his opinions.
With the amount of pretty much unbelievable material The Absolute Sound has published over the last few years, I don't understand why audiophiles continue to read it? Gives new meaning to the term "audiophool", I guess...
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Have you heard MQA files ?
With the amount of pretty much unbelievable material The Absolute Sound has published over the last few years, I don't understand why audiophiles continue to read it? Gives new meaning to the term "audiophool", I guess...
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Again, nobody is talking about sound quality from hand picked promo titles released by Meridian or a "partner". We are talking about the "hype" surrounding every "next great new thing" Meridian is involved in and the way Harley and his minions shout it from the mountain top and why that happens. If you think it sounds better based on their sample files that is great. Buy the now $300 Explorer DAC and wait for the music to show up. I for one am still waiting for DSD to come to full fruition. When you have been around this hobby as long as an old guy like me you only have to get burnt by the new thing so many times until you learn to be patient.
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Have you heard MQA files ?
At this point I think it is irrelevant. IMHO, a good recording and mastering engineer could put together a remastered 320k MP3 and have it sound better than whatever comparison version was around. Demonstrations like that just don't mean much, as Jack says. We don't "need" a new digital format as much as we would benefit from more audiophile friendly recording and mastering techniques in our existing formats. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to make anyone enough money for it to happen very often.
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Not even interested!!!!
And that's liable the way it will go.
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Remastered MP3 files can be made to sound better than their hi resolution counterparts ?
At this point I think it is irrelevant. IMHO, a good recording and mastering engineer could put together a remastered 320k MP3 and have it sound better than whatever comparison version was around. Demonstrations like that just don't mean much, as Jack says. We don't "need" a new digital format as much as we would benefit from more audiophile friendly recording and mastering techniques in our existing formats. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to make anyone enough money for it to happen very often.
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Remastered MP3 files can be made to sound better than their hi resolution counterparts ?
Yes, absolutely.
It would obviously be better to remaster from higher quality files to begin with, but even with "lowly" mp3's you can work all sorts of magic.
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I'm interested and will keep an open mind until I hear it for myself.
Not even interested!!!!
And that's liable the way it will go.
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Not even interested!!!!
And that's liable the way it will go.
You're right, not even interested, because this isn't about offering us recordings with better sound quality; it's about making Meridian money. Lossy compression; need I say more?
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And the train keeps on rollin!
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Your saying the (unfolding) part isn't possible ?
Lossy compression; need I say more?
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Your saying the (unfolding) part isn't possible ?
I'm not sure what you mean? According to Meridian, their compression scheme is lossy. Yes, if you have an MQA decoder you get higher resolution than if you don't, but even that MQA-decoded file is lossy compared to the original. The MQA process "throws away" bits representing audio data that it considers "inaudible" or unimportant, just as MP3, AAC, etc do (although the algorithms are totally different).
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Unpack is the word I should have used.
Your saying the (unfolding) part isn't possible ?
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Unpack is the word I should have used.
Makes no difference which term you use, it's still lossy :lol:
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I am still waiting for SACD to hit big. :duh: :lol:
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For anyone attending T.H.E. Show Newport Beach, MQA is listed in room 1201. Meridian will be in rooms 1248 & 1249.
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I am still waiting for SACD to hit big. :duh: :lol:
I've got these quadraphonic LPs but nothing to play them on...
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On page 74 of the latest Absolute Sound in the MQA FAQ list, the last comment states that MQA is the antithesis of lossy compression, are they lying ?
Makes no difference which term you use, it's still lossy :lol:
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Too much smoke and mirrors!
BTW I would never give Tidal a dime no matter what just because who ownes it.
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So who owns Tidal?
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On page 74 of the latest Absolute Sound in the MQA FAQ list, the last comment states that MQA is the antithesis of lossy compression, are they lying ?
Yes. There used to be a "white paper" on Meridian's website (it has apparently been removed) describing MQA including its lossy compression scheme. In general, be very skeptical about anything in TAS; for example, their hi-res music reviews continue to propogate the myth that identical digital files sound different depending on where you buy them. Other articles insist that WAV > FLAC > WAV causes incremental losses each time it is performed.
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I really like Tidal, but despite claims of CD-quality sound it does not sounds like my CD Rips, forget about hi-rez.
I am taking all this MQA chatter with a very sizeable grain of salt. And if it really such a great codec - there should be a way to transcode it to hi-rez on the fly on PC...
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So who owns Tidal?
The principal owner = Jay Z
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For anyone attending T.H.E. Show Newport Beach, MQA is listed in room 1201. Meridian will be in rooms 1248 & 1249.
Hi Don, and NuPRIME will be be in ROOM 1046 with EVOKE Speakers.
Swing by and hear us.
CLICK HERE (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141827.msg1519148#msg1519148)
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Looks like the MQA tomfoolery just took a step forward with Warner Music Group. :lol:
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Why don't you just buy in then and let us know how long it takes to get a decent library and then how it sounds. Their demos are with selected cuts from small vendors on $100,000 worth of gear including a $70,000 DAC. You will certainly not get that sound on a $300 USB only DAC on your system, but if you are so confident give it a try.
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MQA may, or may not be what they say it is, I'm not sure because I haven't heard it yet. You on the other hand know ALL about it, also without having ever heard it. One thing I am absolutely sure of, you are snarky and obnoxious. As far as I'm concerned this thread can be deleted.
Why don't you just buy in then and let us know how long it takes to get a decent library and then how it sounds. Their demos are with selected cuts from small vendors on $100,000 worth of gear including a $70,000 DAC. You will certainly not get that sound on a $300 USB only DAC on your system, but if you are so confident give it a try.
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No, I am not "snarky and obnoxious' just realistic because I have been down this road before with the same people. You, on the other hand keep touting the "next big thing" regardless of what the facts are about their demo's, test equipment and source material. So like I said, buy in and let us doubters know how it works out. It is not my place to be a cheerleader. But unless I am shocked you will have to buy a separate "cheap" USB DAC from Meridian or a much more expensive one to find out.
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There is the "medium" priced Mytek Brooklyn at $2k
https://mytekdigital.com/hifi/products/brooklyn_dac_hifi/
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I'm not (touting) a damn thing, just mentioning something in the news that may or may not be of value to the audiophile community. I just spent a good deal of money, from my perspective anyway, on my IDA-16, and my OP had to do with whether or not it could be made compliant to MQA if it happens to become a reality. You had a bad experience with Meridian, we all get that, but I don't have to ignore the possibilities of MQA just cause you say so. Maybe MQA will be a big stinking turd, maybe it won't, time will tell. I would also say that the $70,000 DAC you mention is probably overpriced by about $69,000.
No, I am not "snarky and obnoxious' just realistic because I have been down this road before with the same people. You, on the other hand keep touting the "next big thing" regardless of what the facts are about their demo's, test equipment and source material. So like I said, buy in and let us doubters know how it works out. It is not my place to be a cheerleader. But unless I am shocked you will have to buy a separate "cheap" USB DAC from Meridian or a much more expensive one to find out.
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...my OP had to do with whether or not it could be made compliant to MQA if it happens to become a reality...
My feelings on MQA aside, I think this is a reasonable question, especially since at least 2 companies (dcs and Mytek) have either made or promised to make some of their DAC's MQA-capable.
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Auralic has also said they will do it too on some of their units including the Aries Mini, so it comes down to whether or not there is a mechanism in place on the IDA-16 to do firmware/software upgrades and whether Jason wants to do it or just deal with it on more recent or future releases. In another thread he seemed hesitant on Roon. I have no expectation as to that happening on my IDA-8 or DAC-10.
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Thanks fellows.
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http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/what-is-mqa-meridian-s-digital-audio-format-explained (http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/what-is-mqa-meridian-s-digital-audio-format-explained)
This is an excellent article that puts it in easy to understand terms for non engineering users. The "Should You Care" section at the end of the article sums it up nicely.
It just doesn't make sense that new hardware is required!
Specifically:
If your setup can handle those sorts of streams you should also not (in theory) need any new hardware, if you have something new enough to warrant an update by a manufacturer charitable enough to create one. MQA isn't a brand-new way of encoding audio data, it’s not a DSD-style ‘revelation’, but rather is a novel way of packing up music files we’re otherwise much more familiar with.
In theory, existing DACs and players should be able to deal with MQA following a software update. Of course, cynical companies may not provide that upgrade and instead use this as an excuse to release new hardware claiming to offer ‘next-generation’ Hi-Res Audio support. We'll try to stay optimistic.
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This is the bit that might take a little time to get your head around. MQA isn't really a direct rival to something like the FLAC codec, because MQA streams can actually be delivered within the FLAC container. Or ALAC, the Apple lossless format, or WAV.
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This one is even more direct: http://secure.campaigner.com/Campaigner/Public/t.show?awm7g--8ggp1-fdfhnu6 (http://secure.campaigner.com/Campaigner/Public/t.show?awm7g--8ggp1-fdfhnu6)
Whether we are considering buying high res music, paying for streaming service or adopting another music file format, these statements are to be considered:
High-resolution music requires that the original source recording be up to the definition of the format (your player or DAC can do the up sampling so don't buy another version of the same CD that have been up sampled!)
XXX music catalog will be available at master quality and the MQA process will make it easy to stream - Until Meridian is willing to let independent lab examine their technology (such as what Dr. Waldrep has requested, to convert one of his master studio quality record into MQA) and demonstrate that this is not just "a better way to stream master quality music" (i.e. another compression that is more efficient), there is no need for audiophiles to buy MQA music. Well, if MQA is being streamed by Tidal or Sportify (I don't think streaming services will be bothered to do that), that will work just fine with any high-end DAC.
"The audiophile press has essentially rolled over when it comes to extolling the dramatic improvement in fidelity offered by the new MQA process. And I've stated in this blog, the demonstrations that I've heard (several different times) have been impressive. I wasn't blown away like writers at TAS and Stereophile. In fact, in my conversations with its inventor, the idea is not to improve the fidelity of the original tracks but instead to minimize degradation caused by converters and other intervening digital production steps. Does anyone really think that playing an original master tape is going sound worse than an MQA digitally processed copy? If MQA is "enhancing the fidelity" of the original source, then I want no part of it."
I think performance of DAC, WiFi network and devices have made MQA less relevant now. Perhaps it was useful when it was first conceived many years ago.
As hardware manufacturer, we are here to serve the customers. We serve you by questioning MQA (or any other new standard). If a new format becomes a highly desirable feature that must be implemented in hardware (like DSD which is still subjective it doesn't hurt to be implemented), we will just do it.
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Thanks Jason
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I wish people would stop posting that MQA is "lossless"; it isn't and has never claimed to be (some people have apparently inferred that from the name).
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You are right, I have removed "lossless" from my post.
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So who needs MQA anyway?
Well, maybe I do.
I will be eighty in July and although I have asked God for a long extension of life in perfect health, I'm not sure I'm going to get one. OTOH, I have not heard a thunderous "NO" from somewhere high on the earth's Z axis, so maybe He's thinking about it.
But the actuarial tables suggest that my wife and I (if we're still around) will be moving into much smaller quarters in the next five years or so, with no room for my turntable and my 2,000-plus classical records. So if there's a truly high-res, on-demand source of great music that is fully contained within something the size of a Kleenex box, that would be very appealing. If . . ., if . . . ! So I'll be watching this development with considerable interest.
Of course, then there's the problem of what to do with my amazing 7'-high GR Research LS-9 speakers, two large GR Research subs, my 7' Steinway grand (sob!), etc. But that's a problem for another day.
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Since we apparently can't trust Robert Harley, Meridian, or the new MQA entity to tell us the exact truth about how the format works, why don't you tell us in more detail how it really works, or doesn't work.
I wish people would stop posting that MQA is "lossless"; it isn't and has never claimed to be (some people have apparently inferred that from the name).
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Another review of MQA, this time from SoundStage at the recent High End Munich audio show:
"The uninspiring MQA demo we heard in the Brinkmann Audio room overshadowed the introduction of Brinkmann’s new DAC, which was far more interesting."
http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/shows-events/high-end-2016-munich-germany/197-high-end-2016-photos/629-high-end-2016-product-coverage-gallery-4
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Interesting. At first glance, a test making direct comparisons between with-MQ and without-MQ would be easy and straightforward. What am I missing here?
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Schitt Audio is asking other companies to boycott MQA.
http://schiit.com/news/news/why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa
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The folks at Meridian are smart. They're rehashing the "lost opportunity" that was the MP3 download. Think of how much money Apple or Microsoft would've made if they owned the rights to the wretched MP3 format. Meridian knows that once they get a foothold in the industry, it'll be hard for them to get pushed out. Most people still listen to MP3's despite technological progress! Meridian just needs one or two major services to drink the Kool Aid and from there it's $$$ all day every day. I don't like it. I don't like the idea of an unnecessary new standard, let alone one owned and controlled by a single body.
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Warner has signed up.
http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/news/post/warner-mqa-deal
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Schitt Audio is asking other companies to boycott MQA.
http://schiit.com/news/news/why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa
They have expressed their stance on MQA, but that's putting words in their mouth to say they're asking other companies to outright boycott it.
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Ah well, the presumption of Schiit to recommend a boycott MQA is wrong.
The subject of MQA is contentious right now.
You do best to get opinions on the subject if you are to incorporate MQA in your products.
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Hey, lets not make this topic into for or against MQA. This is after all, NuPrime forum. We always emphasise that we are an engineering company. Convince us with the science, and if it benefits our customers, we will support it. Otherwise, we just watch the show on the sideline.
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Would be possible to update the DAC-9 to be abel to decode MQA from Tidal?
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Hey, lets not make this topic into for or against MQA. This is after all, NuPrime forum. We always emphasise that we are an engineering company. Convince us with the science, and if it benefits our customers, we will support it. Otherwise, we just watch the show on the sideline.
I don't think I am going to convince an engineer of anything, engineers generally convince themselves. There are 3 types of engineers in the world, those that make it happen, those that watch it happen, and those that asked"what happened?". In the last few years as you have been watching Tidal has been dropping more and more MQA content. The choices in the MQA streamer/dac offerings range from $100 to about $7000. I think your engineering guys should take the back seat to your marketing guys and bean counters and make a BUSINESS decision, not an engineering decision. Personally I have a fantastic MQA friendly DAP that I can use as a portable or as a front end through a processor. It has analog out, balanced out and USB out. I am very interested in an MQA friendly DAC with a USB in as I'm sure others are.
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We have Evolution DAC with MQA. We don't make DAP, and yes, this is a business decision.
I should have made my earlier point clearer.
Nuprime has always been making decision base on business. BUT, I have to emphasize that we can only do well for things that are within our core competency, production capability and financial ability.
Core competency - we can compete with ANY amplifier company in the world, and go head to head with the best amp regardless of price. That's what we are good at. So our investment in R&D and production is in amplifier and power supply. Factory production line and supply chain is cater to these type of products. DAC/Preamp is an extension of the product family. Unlike most of the high-end brands out there, we are vertically integrated.
DAP has very different supply chain and production where I would say nearly all are located in China with some in Korea.
So our position is to come up with Hi-mDAC as small and as power efficient as possible to turn your smartphone into a better DAP.
Jason
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Thanks for the reply, and I would really be interested in checking out your DAC, I'll check your website. I am looking at a lot of choices and am curious to what kind of sound I'll get. :thumb:
I am using an Onkyo XP-1 DAP which continues to surprise at how analog it sounds.
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Rustydoglim that dac looks like a lamborghini of audio, wow! Where is it manufactured? What country/city? Thanks
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Evolution DAC ? Made in Taiwan. NuPrime is majority family owned with a small factory near Taipei.
As a small but vertically integrated company, we can control our R&D and production. We were not affected by the "trade war" or practically no disruption from the pandemic.
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That's good to hear, taiwan makes great electronics.