AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: cloudbaseracer on 25 Jun 2012, 02:39 pm
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This guy says 192Khz is a waste!
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html#toc_su
What do you think?
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He's not the only one that says that. I can't remember exactly who it is but one of the pro sound dac makers (very well known) says the same.
Listen yourself and let us know what YOU think.
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Yes, we've discussed this quite a bit. Listen for yourself. Me? i obviously think it makes a difference or I wouldn't spend so much energy putting this Circle together. 24/192 makes a difference; DSD makes a difference. Listen to some native recordings (Barry Diament, Pentatone SACD rips, etc).
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After pages of him baffling you with BS, his argument all comes down to abx with an untrained group of listeners. In other words, they don't know what to listen for and can't appreciate the differences. It would be like taking a group of bozos off the street and have them abx wines, good and cheap wines. Most of them wouldn't know what comprises a good wine and how to appreciate the differences. Refined tastes are developed.
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Ted_b -- I was not aware that this had already been linked to here. Sorry about the redundancy.
FredGarvin -- Funny you should mention refined taste and wine. I just saw a special on TV in which they took a box wine and put it in an expensive looking bottle and the same wine from the box. Guess which one the people chose? It was all unanimous that the expensive bottle was "noticeably better".
I am not making a judgement here at all - just stating something that I saw.
Cheers,
James
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My statement is not intended to say that confirmation bias isn't real. But that's another subject than abx with untrained people.
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Hi cloudbaseracer,
This guy says 192Khz is a waste!
What do you think?
If the first recording medium in my experience that, when well executed, provides results I have not been able to distinguish from the direct mic feed at my recording sessions "makes no sense" or "is a waste", what can I say?
I think exactly the same thing I'd think if someone told me there are no colors in a rainbow.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here but...
I think this kind of bias is inherent to high end audio in general, not just the topic at hand. Many of my audio buddies have built air-tight logical cases as to why they (choose any of the following):
- only listen to vinyl
- only listen to 16 bit audio on NOS DACs
- only listen to Hi-rez audio on hi-rez DACs
- only listen to solid state gear
- only listen to tube gear
and on and on and on...
Unless you have a lot of free time and cash you can't explore every avenue of expression in this hobby, so I can understand folks settling into a path that fits their preferences. But there's a lot of cool high end stuff out there that's different from what you're doing. Check it out for yourself by seeking out someone who is doing it really well. Listen to their perspective and listen to their system. You may not choose to follow that path, but you've made a friend and broadened your audio horizon.
FWIW
Russ
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My statement is not intended to say that confirmation bias isn't real. But that's another subject than abx with untrained people.
If I need training to tell a difference, I'll pass.
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If I need training to tell a difference, I'll pass.
It would be weird if you understood what you were listening to, wouldn't it? I agree, it might be too hard for you.
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When my system reaches that point to where I may or may not get an improvement by switching to hirez, I will then find a new fun thing to spend money on.
However, if we ever reach a conclusive, undeniable consensus that this certain format is without a shadow of a doubt better, I'll do it. There is as of yet no consensus, and my cd player gets to stay. I might pull out my record player and try that, but otherwise I just see a money pit with hirez.
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When my system reaches that point to where I may or may not get an improvement by switching to hirez, I will then find a new fun thing to spend money on.
Remember though, it should be about the music not the quality of it.
I just see a money pit with hirez.
It can be expensive but if you listen to some of the Blue Coast stuff you might be surprised. Not only very well recorded but the music is actually great.
http://bluecoastrecords.com/store/various-artists/blue-coast-collection
I find getting music that is enjoyable is harder to find that is well recorded at the Hi Rez level. Cookie has done a superb job with both IMO. I could list more but will not. :thumb:
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Hmm, thanks JT. If you're doing it that lends a lot of cred to the subject.
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Hmm, thanks JT. If you're doing it that lends a lot of cred to the subject.
I don't think so. Just listen for yourself...download some free tracks that ted_b has kindly listed on another thread and see what YOU think. Like anything, done properly, they're hard to beat.
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Can I just listen to them on my laptop now, with headphones? I don't have an external soundcard or DAC atm, just cdp.
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Can I just listen to them on my laptop now, with headphones? I don't have an external soundcard or DAC atm, just cdp.
No.
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Ok, Sept then, unless Emotiva is lying, again.
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No.
Gud anser. :rock:
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Yesterday, I connected my laptop to my Easter Electric Minimax Dac, great sound from iTunes library.
Today, I just downloaded Jriver, and the samples from HDtracks. Right now I am listening to my first hirez music, this one:
Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov: The Snow Maiden - Dance of the Tumblers
from Exotic Dances from the Opera
Courtesy of Reference Recordings
Eiji Oue and the Minnesota Orchestra
This is what I have to say WOW !!!
:banana piano: :violin: :beer: :drums: :guitar: :rock: :thankyou: :hyper:
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What it's going to take to convince me: a high rez file of the same well recorded song against my not-a-slouch cdp. Not just hirez music by itself.
I should be able to click back and forth on the dac or preamp and be wowed by the supposed increased fidelity.
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Okay, I bought Norah Jones, Come Away with Me in HiRez, from HDTracks (25 bucks, that's expensive) so I could compare, as I have the CD.
I have been A/Bing the first three songs for the last hour. These songs are, Don't Know Why, Seven Years, Cold Cold Heart. I'm sorry to say that, in my system, differences, if any, are really minor.
I am not sure that, on a blind test, I could distinguish the Hirez from my CDp.
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There was actually a guy who posted on here recently who had the full on hirez rig, modded Mac, the whole nine yards, and his gf said the cdp sounded better. Granted it was a high end player. But this is why I'm very leery of spending any money on this.
And Andre you should be hearing a difference on those N3's with that incredibly resolving tweeter.
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Andre2,
Are you sure you bought a virgin HR version or an upsampled one from redbook?
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I am not sure JLM.
I had the distinct impression that my first download was substantially better that CD/redbook quality, but I have yet to A/B those. So I was disappointed at Norah Jones download.
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The HDTracks Norah Jones are authentic 24/192 remasters. As posted elsewhere on this Circle I found the first (Come Away With Me) album's remaster at 24 bits to be a huge improvement over the already good redbook, and the 2nd and 3rd albums to each be a slightly lesser improvement respectively.
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There was actually a guy who posted on here recently who had the full on hirez rig, modded Mac, the whole nine yards, and his gf said the cdp sounded better. Granted it was a high end player. But this is why I'm very leery of spending any money on this.
And Andre you should be hearing a difference on those N3's with that incredibly resolving tweeter.
So some guy ont the internet claims his GF says the CDP is better...now you won't spend money to try or your self?
Would it help any if i told you my GF preferes the hi-res?
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I have downloaded the samples from HD Tracks and have gone back and forth so many times to try to discern the diffeferences and its hard for me to really tell if there are any.
If I have to really stop and try to discern the differences that may indeed be there well is it really worth the extra bucks etc...
Like most of us we all want our stuff to sound the best...and to me its the quality and the music...
Alex
:D
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Russtafarian,
Absolutely agree with your conclusions
John
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What it's going to take to convince me: a high rez file of the same well recorded song against my not-a-slouch cdp. Not just hirez music by itself.
I should be able to click back and forth on the dac or preamp and be wowed by the supposed increased fidelity.
I am in my system.
George
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There's no doubt that mastering trumps format every time. Every time I've heard the same mastering in 16/44.1 vs. any 24 bit format, even 24/44.1, the 24 bit sounds better. Not necessarily "wow", but always noticeably better.
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There's no doubt that mastering trumps format every time.
Until/unless somebody does a serious study that is inconsistent with Meyer and Moran (2007) (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195) nobody can reasonably disagree with that point.
Thing is, often 'hi-rez" really just means "we mastered this to sound better on good systems. Oh, and by the way, the bitrate and sampling frequency are higher, too."
There was actually a guy who posted on here recently who had the full on hirez rig, modded Mac, the whole nine yards, and his gf said the cdp sounded better. Granted it was a high end player. But this is why I'm very leery of spending any money on this.
That sounds like level differences, not "sound quality" differences. I suspect the tester didn't properly match the two boxes' levels.
On the plus side, one needn't spend a lot of money to get hi-rez playback. An Oppo plays-everything-currently-around disk player and DAC is, what, $500ish?
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I've been an audiophile since the early 70's and if there's one thing I've noticed is that it doesn't take a marketing genius to separate an audiophile from his money. How many times are we going to replace our recording collections with the promise of better sound. I was fooled once. It ain't happening again.
Doc
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One of the demo HDtracks that I downloaded last night was:
5. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Violin Concerto in G major (KV 216) - Allegro
from Mozart Violin Concertos
Courtesy of 2L Recordings
Marianne Thorsen and the TrondheimSolistene
I have all Mozart violin sonatas from Itzhak Perlman, and based on the sound of those CDs I believe(d) the above noted hi-resolution download was far superior in detail, sound quality (compared to live violins, for example), and placement of the instruments.
But, I ordered today the CD of the above piece (Mozart: Violin Concerto in G major KV 216] so I can A/B over the weekend.
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I've been an audiophile since the early 70's and if there's one thing I've noticed is that it doesn't take a marketing genius to separate an audiophile from his money. How many times are we going to replace our recording collections with the promise of better sound. I was fooled once. It ain't happening again.
Doc
Then no reason to spend time here on this HiRez Music Circle, which is dedicated to just that, HiRez Music. You will save lots of money, and will tend to not upset folks who'd like to talk about it. :wink:
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He's not the only one that says that. I can't remember exactly who it is but one of the pro sound dac makers (very well known) says the same.
Listen yourself and let us know what YOU think.
Perhaps it was Mr. Lavry of Lavry Engineering. Here's his white paper on the optimal sample rate for quality audio:
http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-white-paper-the_optimal_sample_rate_for_quality_audio.pdf (http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-white-paper-the_optimal_sample_rate_for_quality_audio.pdf)
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Then no reason to spend time here on this HiRez Music Circle, which is dedicated to just that, HiRez Music. You will save lots of money, and will tend to not upset folks who'd like to talk about it. :wink:
Under most circumstances you'd be correct. However, I do think I have the right to voice my support for the OP's posted article. :wink:
Doc
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Under most circumstances you'd be correct. However, I do think I have the right to voice my support for the OP's posted article. :wink:
Doc
Doc
Have you heard any Hi-rez? Just asking.
Mark
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Well yea. Before I was going to learn any new tricks, and at my age that ain't easy, your damn straight I was going to listen and I heard nothing that would make me spend money on music I already own in two different formats.
Doc.
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Doc
No worries, but there is something to hear in a lot of hi-rez recordings...it is all about rather you want to drop the coin to make it happen....completely understand.
Mark
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Count me as a supporter of Hi-Res format. I think the article is suspect at best, and disingenuous to say the least. If you check this guy’s background, one could make a case that he may have ulterior motives involved with pushing his viewpoint.
I have a few recordings of both CD and Hi Res of the same performance, and in each case, the Hi-Res is audibly superior. In the case of multi channel, it’s NO contest.
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Okay, I bought Norah Jones, Come Away with Me in HiRez, from HDTracks (25 bucks, that's expensive) so I could compare, as I have the CD.
I have been A/Bing the first three songs for the last hour. These songs are, Don't Know Why, Seven Years, Cold Cold Heart. I'm sorry to say that, in my system, differences, if any, are really minor.
I am not sure that, on a blind test, I could distinguish the Hirez from my CDp.
okay, I take the stuff above all back. Today I have the full album downloaded in my hard drive, and I can sure hear a difference. I believe what happen yesterday I was listening to the music through Jriver while the album was still downloading, my kbps on Jriver was around 2100, and the downloading actually froze after the fourth song.
Today, playing without simultaneous downloading, Jriver is indicating a rate above 5500 kbps, and I can perceive the characteristics that I was observing on my first (free) download. Of those, the most important to me is that the music quality, that is, the instruments are more true to the real live sound.
It is a subtle distinction - not that dramatic, but there is a distinction. For example, in the begging of Nightingale there is some arpeggios on an acoustic guitar (well, throughout the music really) and I can hear a difference. The guitar is more suave in the hi-res format compared to the CD.
In Come Away with Me, right in the beginning the drums, the bass, and the guitar are more clearly defined and, her voice as she stars singing is "more distinctive". I believe that immediacy of the music is better realized on the hires format.
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okay, I take the stuff above all back. Today I have the full album downloaded in my hard drive, and I can sure hear a difference.
Did you match levels?
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^^^ yes, I did. ^^^
So, i guess the fellow that has wrote the article, with all the ear drawings and frequency regions and all that, forgot to do one basic thing:
listen to the music with his real ears! :D
Is this improvements worth the cost? It is up for each of us to decide. I am a recent audiophile,as I built my system in September 2011, and I decided to go the digital routing, so my added cost will be the downloads. Well, unless I decide to buy my own dedicated computer, as my current (old) dell laptop that I am using for music server is not even mine, but the company that I work for.
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What it's going to take to convince me: a high rez file of the same well recorded song against my not-a-slouch cdp. Not just hirez music by itself.
I should be able to click back and forth on the dac or preamp and be wowed by the supposed increased fidelity.
How many times have you tried this?
There's no doubt that mastering trumps format every time.
Agreed and seconded. And referenced Rclark's comment, any comparison without knowing the entire recording and production chain would render any comparison moot. There are likely so many differences with the same recording that the most we could hope for is to say, "I like the way they mastered it in this format". Which is actually quite valid. What does it matter the reason if you like a recording better? Recording, post production, format, whatever, you like what you hear better. If after sample size "X" of purchase decisions you find yourself buying the Hi-Rez download more often than LP or CD, then that format is the superior one for your system and tastes. Increasingly audiophiles are picking Hi-Rez or LP, and leaving Redbook CD on the shelf.
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Hi Rclark,
What it's going to take to convince me: a high rez file of the same well recorded song against my not-a-slouch cdp. Not just hirez music by itself.
I should be able to click back and forth on the dac or preamp and be wowed by the supposed increased fidelity.
Agreed 100%.
What you're going to need is a DAC that can actually do high res. In my experience, many that have "192" on the spec sheet actually sound *worse* at the highest rates than they do at something like 96k. This, I attribute to clocking that is not up to the significantly increased demands of the higher rates (based on what I've heard, this is far from trivial for the designer - some won't even try it and simply dismiss the higher rates). The DAC must also have analog stages that can perform at the wider bandwidth of the highest rates.
With a DAC (and associated gear) that is truly up to the task, I invite you to visit the Soundkeeper Recordings Format Comparison page at:
http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.com/format.htm
What you'll find there are downloadable samples from four different albums, all at different resolutions but all from the same mastering. (This last is crucial as the page will explain.)
The first album was recorded at 24/96 so there are samples at 16/44 (CD resolution) and 24/96.
The other three were recorded at 24/192 so there are samples at 16/44, 24/96 and 24/192.
Note all samples are in raw PCM format (.wav) so no additional algorithms need be involved during playback, as there would be for the so-called "lossless" formats.
I hope you find the Format Comparison interesting.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com