AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Sonneteer => Topic started by: haiderSonneteer on 20 Nov 2013, 04:53 pm
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With space becoming ever more precious,especially here in Europe, we're seeing a lot of demand for our integrated amps here at Sonneteer. Is the Pre-power separates combination option now a thing of the past?
Also we'd be interested in knowing what do you classify as an integrated? Are digital inputs a must? A desire?
Or are we even potentially going the other way where we have a Phono pre-amp, a digital/line pre-amp and a power amp?
It's open season on formats on one of our other threads so let's bring equipment into the game.
looking forward to your thinking.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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FWIW I personally think that if space/component count minimization is the goal, the best way to slice the cake these days is the "line level component" + power amp (instead of DAC etc + integrated amp). So, basically, a digital/analogue preamp, ideally with hooks into everything else - so HDMI input and preferably output as well as multiples of every kind of digital input, analogue inputs, phono optional only, internet streaming/connectivity etc - plus a power amp. The advantage (to my mind) of this arrangement is that the power amp can be chosen to match the speakers. Cost mounts up with feature set / connectivity, of course...
If "fully integrated" is the goal, then all of the above! But with this one, I feel you are getting into the "lifestyle" system and we're talking about issues that transcend anything to do with high fidelity reproduction.
Anyway, I'm still not at all familiar with what your products are :) but those are my thoughts... :D
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Serious (high quality) integration, space saving, and yes lifestyle (gen X & Y) solutions are available via active speakers that have low level crossovers, matched power amps, and volume control built into the speaker. Some even have pre-amps and DACs. The Brits have done the most work along these lines: Meridian, ATC, PMC, Quad, and AVi to name some of the better vendors. These are all meant for home enjoyment, not dry studio work. Just add a digital source and possibly subwoofer(s).
Regardless of how many times the audio old guard bleats, active designs (from the product developer) offers huge advantages over typical passives. These are much more than B*se competition or audiophile entry level gear. Traditional gear (customer paired amps and passive speakers) have a very difficult time matching the performance of good actives at several times the price (and complexity).
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a digital/analogue preamp, ideally with hooks into everything else - so HDMI input and preferably output as well as multiples of every kind of digital input, analogue inputs, phono optional only, internet streaming/connectivity etc - plus a power amp. The advantage (to my mind) of this arrangement is that the power amp can be chosen to match the speakers. Cost mounts up with feature set / connectivity, of course...
If "fully integrated" is the goal, then all of the above! But with this one, I feel you are getting into the "lifestyle" system and we're talking about issues that transcend anything to do with high fidelity reproduction.
Thank you John. Yes I am with your way of thinking on the all encapsulating preamp. Be it a separate unit or part of the amp is probably a matter of user preference as per your matching comments.
Interesting comment on the Lifestyle thing. Experience tells me that the Audiophile fraternity is a little conservative when it comes to Lifestyle 'looking' products. I have always been of the mind that lifestyle and high fidelity should be able to go hand in had. In fact our very survival as an industry and as a hobby may depend on it. This may be another subject for debate.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Serious (high quality) integration, space saving, and yes lifestyle (gen X & Y) solutions are available via active speakers that have low level crossovers, matched power amps, and volume control built into the speaker. Some even have pre-amps and DACs. The Brits have done the most work along these lines: Meridian, ATC, PMC, Quad, and AVi to name some of the better vendors. These are all meant for home enjoyment, not dry studio work. Just add a digital source and possibly subwoofer(s).
Regardless of how many times the audio old guard bleats, active designs (from the product developer) offers huge advantages over typical passives. These are much more than B*se competition or audiophile entry level gear. Traditional gear (customer paired amps and passive speakers) have a very difficult time matching the performance of good actives at several times the price (and complexity).
Thanks JLM, Yes you sound like my University lecturer who was very much into active speakers. with my Pro audio hat on I have worked with Active monitors a lot and also some hifi specific ones. The two worlds have such similarities yet speak to 'aficionados' on either side and they tend to agree with each other if the language is translated, but little do they know it. I think there are myths and misunderstandings on both sides.
I think in both technical and ergonomic terms there are long lists of Pros and cons for each argument in the active/passive loudspeaker debate. striking the right balance I think depends on the specific need. Is it worth another thread? We might get too technical! ;-) Could be fun.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Refreshing to read of an audio vendor who is so open minded. The message of active designs, especially in this digital source age needs to get out there. I A/B'd Paradigm Studio 20 v. Active 20 about 12 years ago (both 2-way stand mounted, same drivers/cabinets) and there was no comparison. One of only a handful of true epiphanies in my 40+ years in audio. Unfortunately (not for vendors :wink:) most audiophiles are still hunter/gatherers and lust after endlessly swapping gear, the more pieces the better to have a bigger trophy wall. Gotta go for now.
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I think you've opened up all of these questions with your op, which is a good thing in my way of thinking. The whole model of our component set changing from sources to preamp to power amp to passive speakers now becoming music server to multi-purpose dac/pre to powered speaker or fully integrated multi-input 7.1 all in one system to passive speakers may be the successful model for the future, bridging both hi-end and lifestyle markets. And then deciding if the harder sell is to the audiophile or the well heeled lifestyle buyer. Personally I think NAD's new 3020D line of components (for example) may hit the sweet spot for most audiophiles and lifestyle buyers. Then upsell to the master series for the higher end purchaser. They are covering all the bases with convenient, quality products. MISS
I think in both technical and ergonomic terms there are long lists of Pros and cons for each argument in the active/passive loudspeaker debate. striking the right balance I think depends on the specific need. Is it worth another thread? We might get too technical! ;-) Could be fun.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Interesting comment on the Lifestyle thing. Experience tells me that the Audiophile fraternity is a little conservative when it comes to Lifestyle 'looking' products. I have always been of the mind that lifestyle and high fidelity should be able to go hand in had. In fact our very survival as an industry and as a hobby may depend on it. This may be another subject for debate.
Thinking (briefly) on it, I have to confess that in my usage of the term, "lifestyle" does tend to denote a poor performance/price ratio, at least by traditional audiophile standards. But I would fully agree that this should not be the case! It can't be good for the industry that other members of the family won't/can't use the "stereo" because it's too difficult!
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I have often wondered why an all in one or most in one box solution is not the best. A product designer should feel that the overall synergy is completely within their control from a design standpoint as interstage signal transfer will be decided by them and not the end user. At a minimum, a preamp/amp solution of uber quality would be nice. Taking the next step on the digital signal input would be next incorporated but perhaps should be done in a modular fashion as to the changing nature of the product. Lastly could come a media storage option.
I think the high end arena, which is ruled mostly by marketing, will shoot down an amazing integrated solution due to the fact that they will be selling less boxes. More boxes mean more money. More boxes also mean additional cabling needed between equipment which is an area of elevated profit margins.
Overall box size should be relatively minimal as there are amplifiers such as the Hypex models which encompass very little space. The lack of need for large transformers and capacitors should have been the largest space consuming items. I'm in!!
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There are some excellent integrated amps out there. $$$$$
I have been using one for awhile and do not miss separates.
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An integrated is not a bad way to go. The mainstream markets have gone into all in one Audio/Video receivers with seemingly every feature you could ask for. The problem with these systems is that they have short shelf lives due to the rather brisk pace of digital audio progress. People still use analog equipment that they purchased in the 1970. Adding digital to an integrated may be fine when new, but the equipment won't hold its value. For me it would need to be an analog integrated or a DAC/preamp and separate amp combination, but what do I know, I use an A/V receiver to listen to. :)
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Adding digital to an integrated may be fine when new, but the equipment won't hold its value.
I agree with this statement completely which is why I would make the digital section modular. If this is a plug and play type of swap then you can future proof the unit to some degree.
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It is all about the power supplies. Dual mono and separate power supplies isolated from each other for each section should do the trick. Phono and digital could be in other enclosures. Less could be more.
charles
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Thank you John. Yes I am with your way of thinking on the all encapsulating preamp. Be it a separate unit or part of the amp is probably a matter of user preference as per your matching comments.
Interesting comment on the Lifestyle thing. Experience tells me that the Audiophile fraternity is a little conservative when it comes to Lifestyle 'looking' products. I have always been of the mind that lifestyle and high fidelity should be able to go hand in had. In fact our very survival as an industry and as a hobby may depend on it. This may be another subject for debate.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
With products like the Devaliet D-Premier, and perhaps a lesser extent (and less expensive extent) Peachtree Audio products walk the line quite nicely between Lifestyle and high fidelity.
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I think that although we are seeing new pieces that are well received that fit this mold (Wadia powerdac, NAD D2020, Nu Force IA100 and the Peachtree items) it is a small slice of the overall pie.
Many buyers of high end gear have many motivations - trophy wall, uniqueness, love of tech, love of music, etc.
I have simplified my system over the years from how complex it once was, but it is not quite back to the first real high end setup I owned. The advent of more users (family!) has meant that integration with AV is now a requirement.
Eventually, I will return to a dedicated 2 channel setup, but for now it is a mix of HT and 2 channel.
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I have often wondered why an all in one or most in one box solution is not the best. A product designer should feel that the overall synergy is completely within their control from a design standpoint as interstage signal transfer will be decided by them and not the end user. At a minimum, a preamp/amp solution of uber quality would be nice. Taking the next step on the digital signal input would be next incorporated but perhaps should be done in a modular fashion as to the changing nature of the product. Lastly could come a media storage option.
From a designers point of view you are absolutely accurate in your assumption. This is certainly how I feel and as I understand it, my designer colleague has a not too dissimilar view. I also understand the vendors desire to make more money and hence more boxes. Saying that, it is not a lie to say sometimes more boxes are better and gives you more flexibility in matching. Also, as we all know, the nature of our kind of end user does like to tweak. And why not.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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I guess it would depend upon your speakers and what you like.
If you have power hungry speakers and like the sound of tube amps an integrated would not be a viable option.
I do have a couple of integrated amps but they're used for small speakers or headphones.
Besides, trying out different preamps is fun as each manufacturer has their own idea as to how the music should sound.
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The advent of more users (family!) has meant that integration with AV is now a requirement.
Eventually, I will return to a dedicated 2 channel setup, but for now it is a mix of HT and 2 channel.
I think the reality that most music lovers are part of a greater household is something that is hopefully dawning on our industry. Hifi has been hostage to high end enthusiasts for a quite a while. For some, sharing has been difficult. If it is all about the music and that's certainly my angle, then accessibility to quality should be widened. I have had a similar experience in my home. Though we ended up with a more lifestyle looking (hifi sounding) 2 channel system. The separates are in my guitar room!
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Besides, trying out different preamps is fun as each manufacturer has their own idea as to how the music should sound.
Yes indeed. I think this is a well made point. For those who like to dabble a little, separating the system allows more time for fun. And why not. Nirvana for each of us is not the same.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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With all this lifestyle chat, I'm recalling those sleek B&O receivers from the 70's (not the later ones with the gaudy wall hung option). Good sounding (in the typical dry Scandinavian way) and well built, compact (fully intended to belong on a book shelf), and (I thought) were almost too simple use (no power on button, just go to your source selection and hit the off button when done). Today NuForce is an audio company that spans portable, desktop, wireless, and high-end spectrums with simple/compact equipment.
Frankly the DIY crowd scares most the 'straights' away in an instant with gobs of wires, exposed components, and unfathomable controls (which should all be a good lessons in what not to do if you're trying to breach the 'civilian' market). Just add warm-up time, delicate turntables, tubes that burn cats and small children with huge ugly speakers and you have a run of the mill audio system and all the reasons why the general public flee in mass hysteria.
Speakers are a particular challenge in addressing various acceptance factors with number, size, and location constraints. One of the best examples of crossing high-end with lifestyle in a passive speaker is Amphion. But this is where active designs (that can be much smaller for the same bass response, many that include wall/corner/open location adjustments or desktop versions that are so small its not needed) can really shine, with separate subwoofers as needed, and wireless controls can help win the day. The question is: Can the typical audiophile support tearing down the walls that separate our territory and embrace gear that is accessible to the masses?
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The question is: Can the typical audiophile support tearing down the walls that separate our territory and embrace gear that is accessible to the masses?
Pretty sure we're trying to. A lot of people use ipods and iphones to play lossless files on their systems. A lot of people are also using their computers as sources. I think these are both things that the masses use and audiophiles are beginning to embrace more and more.......especially with high res downloads and DSD. The disconnect, I see, are the companies still supporting mp3's, which they believe are good enough for the masses. They assume the masses are fine not knowing what they're missing. This is the problem in my mind. If Apple and Amazon would support hi res downloads and playback and stop selling mp3's, the line between the separate territories would largely melt away. Yes, I realize not all audiophiles are into digital playback, yet, but you best believe that the masses are. It is very difficult, in the minds of the masses, to understand why audiophiles are so obsessive about their playback systems, when mp3's are deemed good enough for them.
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Seems my situation might be a perfect example of this thread. My wife and I recently moved into our new downsized retirement home. I no longer have a dedicated listening room and my wife asked if I really needed all of those "boxes" and wires in the living room :duh: . . . . . well, let me think about that :scratch: . . . so, as I'm writing this I'm awaiting word that my new LSA Statement Integrated amp is being shipped . . . . if it had a built-in headphone amp it would be a perfect one box solution for my situation. :thumb:
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I believe that there is a cycle to the integrated, It started off consols with that all in one sound units.
As speakers and the electronics advanced we found that separating speakers meant better
sound thus the receiver was developed. With speakers constantly being developed amplification
began to improve. I took the bridge pins out of the receiver and thus had a preamp (with tuner),
amp and speakers. Further development of preamp stage had me getting a dedicated preamp.
Through major technology changes the individual pieces developed first with the integrated lagging
behind. We are at a place where the new technologies have made amps small enough again that the
integrated is now a viable product with the new class of power provided in the integrated. I personally
prefer my class A, AB sound over the newer technologies so don't see an integrated in my near future
but if things change in the different classes of amplification, I won't rule an integrated out.
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Good thread. It's a subject that audiophiles should occasionally re-visit.
For those who eschew vinyl, the integrated amp makes a lot of sense. The original purpose of the preamp was to straighten out the RIAA curve for records, and amplify the voltage to a sufficient level to drive power amps.
There are a lot of excellent sounding integrated amps on the market today. The Yamaha A-S series (especially the A-S2000 and A-S3000) have OUTSANDING performance as integrated, and in many cases, outperform many separates. This performance is verified by bench measurements, due to design and superior power supplies. It also has tome controls and MM/MC input to boot. The Pass Labs INT-30A/150 takes a different approach to the design, but works very well.
As one who has had issues with the new technology (Class D), I must admit that the most recent offerings have much improved performance, and can and do give traditional Class A A/B designs a good run for the money. The high output power from these new offerings can make the presentation sound more alive than many traditional amps. There is a lot to be said for delivering high power cleanly, regardless of how it's generated. (Still love high powered tubes, though). :lol:
So, yes, integrated amps make a lot sense. :D
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The question is: Can the typical audiophile support tearing down the walls that separate our territory and embrace gear that is accessible to the masses?
Thanks JLM,
I think you have asked the big question. However if we (hifi type people) develop the perfect audiophile quality product that lands well into the non audiophile arena then would it not be the case that Audiophiles will simply need to catch up? Or do we need to please the audiophile community first in the same way a son always want to please his father?
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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I think you have asked the big question. However if we (hifi type people) develop the perfect audiophile quality product that lands well into the non audiophile arena then would it not be the case that Audiophiles will simply need to catch up? Or do we need to please the audiophile community first in the same way a son always want to please his father?
FWIW I think the headphone arena is a good example of where things are being turned upside down.
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Yes indeed John,
Headphones are the big audio success story. While Rome was burning they built a new Rome somewhere else.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Along these lines, I recently replaced my living room system that we use only for casual listening and was made up of my leftovers with a $99 Logitech UE smart radio (wireless internet clock radio with 6 hour battery that picks up your at home music files too). It's smaller, has more functions than the old receiver/CDP/floorstanders, looks nicer in our nice living room, fills the large space nicely with decent sound, and outputs to headphones/etc. So I showed it off to my son and his wife yesterday and they were interested enough to want the name of it. That never happened with any of my older/better but bigger/clunkier gear.
Can you be an audiophile and not obsess? For instance can we accept that MP3 is better than portable cassettes and be happy for the masses while encouraging them to greater heights (versus always looking down our noses at them)? One of the bridges I see being built between audiophiles and the general public is the emergence of affordable self-powered speakers that are compact, affordable, and simple. Example: the new Audioengine A2+ ($250/pair, F3 = 65 Hz, 16/48 DAC, sub output, compact, shielded). The old A2, A5, and A5+ were all well reviewed. What an easy way to move up into something 'serious' for home audio/video.
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I am not sure what the common definition of audiophile is, but I would contend it is someone who is both in love with music, but also the pursuit of optimal playback and reproduction of that music at the highest level.
I have gone back and forth between audiophile and music lover.
It would seem that long term I may continue to battle with it, but the current phase is closer to music lover.
I own mid fi gear at the moment (well, my Paradigm Reference Studio 20's might qualify as a toe dipping into the hi end, but I doubt it) and am happy with my combined HT and 2 channel setup in the shared basement family room (pool table, and my pre teen kids are down there a lot).
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The mass mind is slow to advance, impossible to stop, and averse to sudden change. All this, I suppose, is due to its mass. With this in mind, we wonder why our ways are not adopted widely.
Well, I would say that we as a culture have been veering toward portability and compactness for a long while. Digital music and digital hardware have brought this on. Do any of us imagine that this trend will reverse in the near future?
Our massive hardware and insistence on ceremonial listening have drawn us ever closer to obsolescence. The curtain is coming down. The tendency toward integrated amps seems to be an effort by us dinosaurs to forestall the inevitable.
My boys are 21 and 23 years old now. They grew up playing vinyl and enjoying sit down listening to serious audio products. They both have NHT M-OO speakers with S-OO subs and Grado headphones. Yet they both listen at their desks, usually through the cans. Their listening is personal and private.
When I was their age, my peers and I gathered in groups to smoke and listen. We were more convivial than my guys. We weren't as solo in our thinking and our lifestyles as today's youth.
Music was blossoming all around us, radio stations were exposing us to a renaissance of adventurous culture. Unity of thought and magnitude of causes were reason enough to commune.
Now we aren't sitting in movie theaters and concerts or watching television in groups. We are watching out phones and tablets and monitors alone. We are listening to earbuds alone (even if with others). We are portable and compact. We are low mass. We are low dollar. We are insular and divided. We are private. We are gestating, festering, fuming.
Better not to think too much. Let's go shopping.
We audiophiles still gather in groups to listen. We find that more rewarding I guess than listening alone all the time. We still have the big rigs and the obsession with improvement. But look at how many are downsizing or at least thinking about it. And look at the attrition rate that will only accelerate as our average age increases annually. I'm sitting on a lot of equipment that I don't even try to sell. Most of us have too much gear already. Many just can't afford to continue as consumers. Some are seeing the light. Enjoy it while the embers still glow. There will be no rekindling. The dream is over.
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There will be no rekindling. The dream is over.
Oh No MacroJack, Please let it not be so!
in all seriousness I see some of your point. Clutching on straws is not good enough. I do think this insular life that you reference cannot be sustained in the long term. Though a lot of our mass-ness is now not so obvious as it is in the cloud so to speak. is it healthy? only time will tell. But as long as people are listening to music we can try produce the right products to allow them to listen to it with optimum performance can we not?
On a very positive note, we at home do listen to our music together. My 3 year old daughter compels me to switch on the hifi and play it 'loud daddy' almost daily. She then dances around the room like a jellicle cat.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Hello Haider -
I can say it's not so if you think that will help. Personally I do not see where my interpretation is likely to alter the course we've set. Social trends are massive and momentous. Best just to view all this as evolution. I can't stop it from happening but, by being prudent, careful, and informed, I may be able to lessen its impact on me. Many respond to any feeling of discord or inconvenience or deprivation by planting their head in the sand. Perhaps headphones are a corollary to that response.
Whatever the case, I'm thinking lately that I need to leave the stereo as it is and modify me instead.
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Whatever the case, I'm thinking lately that I need to leave the stereo as it is and modify me instead.
On that note I need a strong black cup of coffee.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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As technology and affluence (at least for a some percentage of the world's people) both march forward, audio has been at the fore front. Individualism is rampant in our self-sufficient culture where we don't know our neighbor but call unknown service guys to come into our house. We can solo commute versus taking the bus. Instead of browsing at others or sharing in casual conversation we stare at the TV in most restaurants, or check our e-mail versus chatting with your table mate. We have enough income and modern conveniences to not need a cook, maid, or yard keeper. Our youth barely know how to effectively relate, but instead communicate via the web and can only play in organized/supervised settings. We barely talk to mail clerk, janitor at work, or checkout people (if we use them) or hundreds of others that we casually interact with on a daily basis. The world is a scary place (it always has been) so we can now blend even more into the crowd.
100 years ago listening to music was a live event, not a pastime and required at least two people with some sort of interaction, usually drawing a crowd and it wasn't perfectly recorded from a spotless performance by a top notch musician. Now thanks to technology and affluence most listen as a pastime and completely as individuals either with buds or dedicated listening rooms with a solitary sweet spot. And we're musical voyeurs, secretly observing the performance from behind closed doors or earbuds, ever tweaking the sound to get even the most intimate details from the performer. We hide behind the mask of the internet, rarely revealing our true identities. Is all this healthy?
Are we far enough off topic now?
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Um, "listening to music" is fundamentally a solitary event. It's akin to "reading a book" - you can't really "read a book" with someone else, you have to read it yourself, it's not really a shared activity. Even if you go to a concert with other people, the "listening to music" part is still a solitary event. Suppose your friends were talking to you during the concert, or poking you in the ribs, or clapping, or dancing, or something. That isn't called "listening to music together", that's called "annoying." Or maybe "dancing," or whatever the other activity was. You might go there with your friends, you might talk about it afterwards, but actually listening is a solitary event.
If sharing music with other people during the event itself is important, I think "playing music" is much more likely to be rewarding than "listening to music."
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Um, "listening to music" is fundamentally a solitary event.
"
Tonight I unpack my guitars (we just moved house) and I will play for at least 30mins. When I was( a lot) younger I used to go round to some friends house and we jammed till the early hours. Annoying their neighbours I am sure.
Saying that we also went to gigs and enjoyed that too, not sitting and observing in a solitary manor but dancing, jumping up and down and being all out hysterical and interacting. Actually come to think of it I did just that at a Radiohead gig just a couple of months ago.
We put the music up load (and clear) at home and we interact, get on with our chores, or just read the paper. We live.
So what inputs and outputs do we actually need on the perfect integrated then?
8)
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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So what inputs and outputs do we actually need on the perfect integrated then?
Perfect? Hm... well FWIW I'd say USB, Toslink, HDMI, SPDIF (RCA) x 2, and say 2 analog inputs. The digital ins need to be pretty good to be competitive these days, say up to 192kHz PCM. It would need a (mono) sub out and variable/switchable crossover including highpass on the internal amps. Also pre out / amp in connectors (switchable).
Assuming a multiline display and/or HDMI video out, I'd also add a USB port for sticks or drives, an Ethernet connection for remote file access, and an MHL HDMI port for streamers.
Two pre outs would be good so you can connect an external headphone amp, with switching to turn off the main amp. Inbuilt headphone sockets or amps seem a bit of a losing game these days. Having said that tho, a separate version of the product specifically targeted for desktops (which does include a top-shelf headphone amp) would be interesting.
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Um, "listening to music" is fundamentally a solitary event. It's akin to "reading a book" - you can't really "read a book" with someone else, you have to read it yourself, it's not really a shared activity. Even if you go to a concert with other people, the "listening to music" part is still a solitary event. Suppose your friends were talking to you during the concert, or poking you in the ribs, or clapping, or dancing, or something. That isn't called "listening to music together", that's called "annoying." Or maybe "dancing," or whatever the other activity was. You might go there with your friends, you might talk about it afterwards, but actually listening is a solitary event.
If sharing music with other people during the event itself is important, I think "playing music" is much more likely to be rewarding than "listening to music."
On one level I agree, only I live in my head (so far as I know). And I agree that performing is normally much more rewarding than listening. But on the concert experience I disagree. Going to a rock concert is often highly interactive with those you might of come with or those nearby. Certainly not everyone considers all interactions during a concert to be annoying. Even a more sedate concert can still involve a shared experience (hand holding, a smile, joined celebration post-performance, and yes memories afterwards). There must be more to life than just self (or the internet).
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Even a more sedate concert can still involve a shared experience (hand holding, a smile, joined celebration post-performance, and yes memories afterwards).
Yes, but that isn't the experience of listening.
There must be more to life than just self (or the internet).
Of course, but that doesn't mean that everything has to be non-self either. I guess I don't really even see why there's a dichotomy being proposed/promoted here.
The anti-Internet thing is odd, though. Surely that is sharing experience? It might not include someone who happens to be watching someone typing, but just because you're excluded from that particular interaction it doesn't mean that everybody else is. While I'm not young so can merely observe/comment, frankly it seems to me that the younger crowd are far more sociable than those of our age ever were.
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Perfect? Hm... well FWIW I'd say USB, Toslink, HDMI, SPDIF (RCA) x 2, and say 2 analog inputs. The digital ins need to be pretty good to be competitive these days, say up to 192kHz PCM. It would need a (mono) sub out and variable/switchable crossover including highpass on the internal amps. Also pre out / amp in connectors (switchable).
Assuming a multiline display and/or HDMI video out, I'd also add a USB port for sticks or drives, an Ethernet connection for remote file access, and an MHL HDMI port for streamers.
Two pre outs would be good so you can connect an external headphone amp, with switching to turn off the main amp. Inbuilt headphone sockets or amps seem a bit of a losing game these days. Having said that tho, a separate version of the product specifically targeted for desktops (which does include a top-shelf headphone amp) would be interesting.
JohnR - This piece checks a lot of your boxes: http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m903/m903.htm
With remote, it sells for about $2K. I've thought long and hard about buying one. It is a parallel to my Jeff Rowland Design Group Capri preamplifier. Even uses the same remote with different command assignments. Capri has onboard phono which Grace does not offer.
All things considered, I think NAD is showing everyone else the way presently. That D3020 has most bases covered for only $500.
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While I'm not young so can merely observe/comment, frankly it seems to me that the younger crowd are far more sociable than those of our age ever were.
I'm even more "not young" and I agree. They have their own ways and do not use the same "base line" as we do or did have at that time in our life. It's different now, and it was different before everyone had a hi-fi and TV too.
FWIW, in '74 my first set was an integrated with a separate tuner. Separate boxes ever since.
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Yes, but that isn't the experience of listening.
Of course, but that doesn't mean that everything has to be non-self either. I guess I don't really even see why there's a dichotomy being proposed/promoted here.
The anti-Internet thing is odd, though. Surely that is sharing experience? It might not include someone who happens to be watching someone typing, but just because you're excluded from that particular interaction it doesn't mean that everybody else is. While I'm not young so can merely observe/comment, frankly it seems to me that the younger crowd are far more sociable than those of our age ever were.
We're entering an age where our self-image is more defined as an individual rather than being part of a community. More and more of our interactions are with via A/V gear or with machines. We're losing intimacy. What depth of the 'human experience' do you share posting or texting back and forth? We can't see, hear, smell, or touch each other in this media. Empathy, devotion, and loyalty have become intellectual concepts versus shared feelings. Service to self trumps developing rich relationships. Emotionally we are becoming more passive (we watch, normally dysfunctional, relationships on TV while sitting alone). Our youth now only play sports under supervision and within an organization. Any wonder why sadly some youth have committed suicide based primarily on hurtful posts.
How many audiophiles would rather 'listen' alone to a 'sterilized performance' (practiced and planned to death, scrubbed of any imperfections or live foibles) in a dedicated room versus getting 'real' and going into a crowd to witness the total experience live? Would the audiophile relate to how your friend(s) or the crowd reacts/appreciates the performance? Is that not what the concert experience is all about (and why you attend)? Can you really or should you separate the audible inputs from the rest? I certainly think there should be room for private space on our lives, but I fear the loss of society (shared identity).
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How many audiophiles would rather 'listen' alone to a 'sterilized performance' (practiced and planned to death, scrubbed of any imperfections or live foibles) in a dedicated room versus getting 'real' and going into a crowd to witness the total experience live?
Overall, I sort of fail to appreciate or perhaps really agree with your point. But this quote is an example of what I mean when I said why does it have to be either/or. "High fidelity" refers to a reproduction or a recording. That's the whole point - enjoyable reproduction of a recording. Making it something contra some purported "live event" is counter-productive. If one had the money and time to go and see a live concert every time music was desired, then of course, do it! But most don't; and furthermore, recordings enable us to have access to a vast number of performances that we simply wouldn't otherwise have.
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Seems my situation might be a perfect example of this thread. My wife and I recently moved into our new downsized retirement home. I no longer have a dedicated listening room and my wife asked if I really needed all of those "boxes" and wires in the living room :duh: . . . . . well, let me think about that :scratch: . . . so, as I'm writing this I'm awaiting word that my new LSA Statement Integrated amp is being shipped . . . . if it had a built-in headphone amp it would be a perfect one box solution for my situation. :thumb:
Yes. If I am honest, I didn't have to retire or downsize to be in your situation. Music room turned to playroom and living room...well, as above. So the perfect integrated needs a headphone amp? So doe that mean you need to be near the amp when listening or do you have headphones on a really long lead? Would a high resolution wireless system solve this issue?
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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If one had the money and time to go and see a live concert every time music was desired, then of course, do it! But most don't; and furthermore, recordings enable us to have access to a vast number of performances that we simply wouldn't otherwise have.
Yes I have to agree. I think this argument takes us into a different area completely as the availability of more and more sophisticated recording tools and instruments have truly secured recording as an art form in itself. I would also argue that live recording is also an art separate from the live event. I have some, if small, experience in this area and it is a subject that can entertain through much prose on its own.
our job as developers and manufacturers of the instruments of playback of this recorded material is to convey as honestly as possible the essence of these recordings.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Personally, I think IA's make a lot of sense. See reviews of IA's from Mystere and Prima Luna. Speakers should be on the more efficient side and there shouldn't be a penalty there. In a moderate size room, that's the road I would take. Ones with a phono section are rare if at all these days, but good separates are out there. How about that wee giant killer Vista? Other good ones can be had new for 600-700 bucks.
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Personally, I think IA's make a lot of sense. See reviews of IA's from Mystere and Prima Luna. Speakers should be on the more efficient side and there shouldn't be a penalty there. In a moderate size room, that's the road I would take. Ones with a phono section are rare if at all these days, but good separates are out there. How about that wee giant killer Vista? Other good ones can be had new for 600-700 bucks.
Thanks, and yes indeed. I am far from a speaker design expert but I do think solutions should fit the problems and inefficient loudspeakers always strike me as failed solution. Of course I can understand the problems with current over efficient speakers that are a little trigger happy. These have other flaws which I am sure can be designed out by clever and innovative engineering.
Price of a good product? Well I would say value is in the heart of the buyer. My Timex watch I bought for $20 tells the time more accurately than an IWC and is full of features but I did not aspire to own it and it is but a utility. i have my eye on a couple of time pieces which would need bank and family consultation to buy and I don;t care how accurate it tells the time. BUT I will rationalise every positive aspect of it to justify the purchase for sure. I am, however, already convinced.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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With space becoming ever more precious,especially here in Europe, we're seeing a lot of demand for our integrated amps here at Sonneteer. Is the Pre-power separates combination option now a thing of the past?
Also we'd be interested in knowing what do you classify as an integrated? Are digital inputs a must? A desire?
Or are we even potentially going the other way where we have a Phono pre-amp, a digital/line pre-amp and a power amp?
It's open season on formats on one of our other threads so let's bring equipment into the game.
looking forward to your thinking.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
Hi just thought I'd wake this thread up. It has been a wee while since posted and things may have moved on a little with some.
We'd love to know how.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Didn't come across it in its original form then, so, it makes for interesting reading now.
I've always been a fan of the fewer parts the better. Personally, I think most problems for hi-fi listeners have been driven by a mismatch between how many sources/formats folks want to run into a system, and whatever the norm is for that time.
I seem to have hit my maximum evolutionary density some time ago: Not less than a Two Box Solution (number of components, not including speakers). However, the roles and responsibilities seem to be changing:
/ For a long time, I had some kind of then-universal player (typically a Pioneer) plugged straight into a SS amp w/trim pots.
/ Then I got somewhat civilized: A Peachtree Audio Nova, with an Oppo BDP-93. I had the Peachtree doing as much of the DAC work as possible.
/ When I changed my speakers to Klipsch Cornwalls, the Nova got replaced with an SET that has two sets of inputs, and a stepped attenuator. So...
/ The TV remote handles volume control for OTA and Roku stuff, and I use the attenuator when I am playing the Oppo. When I replace my current Oppo with a newer one, I will have remote volume control for it, and the ability to feed it other digital sources (computer/whatever pushing out FLAC/DSD, etc.).
/ In the current setup, the DAC in the Oppo doesn't sound as good as what I had in the Peachtree. However, the improvements I got when going to an SET more than make up for it. And I have only just started messing around with rolling the input tube...
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Thanks, yes, the fewer bits to make it all sing the better, certainly from my perspective. Filling holes and flattening bumps is still patch up work. Clean and simple form the start is ideal if one can get it.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Another Update on this topic.
As we had a great deal of wonderful feedback on this thread and a couple of others, including some polls on some sites, we are actually in teh latter stages of product development on a product that was truly inspired by all the comments here.
Project Heartbeat promises to be the ultimate customisable and upgradable, integrated product.
More soon. Oh and by all means continue with comments.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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We are nearly there and much is thanks to your help. Would love any more thoughts on this topic before we get to the finish line. Even after we do, we are always evolving and responding to thoughts, ideas and critics.
Haider
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Any possibility for a more powerful (@100w) Alabaster priced (or a bit lower) basic integrated?
Thanks,
Lin
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Hi Thanks for your question.
The Alabaster price point is just about the best we can do for Made in the UK as things stand and for the quality we can deliver for you. As we develop new products and ideas 'trickle' down the range we do our best to maintain quality and pricing at this entry level.
So basically, we will do our best, but no promises. Alabaster, by the way, does deliver 105 Watts into 4 ohms. So technically we are there already.
Haider
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.....but my ATCs are 8 ohms. :green:
Thanks for your reply.
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haha, yes point taken. It will give you the full 55 watts into your ATCs regardless of efficiency. Alabaster likes hungry speakers.
Haider
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Hi Haider!
Do you have any dealer/representative near/close to Latvia, except Russia?
Thank you,
Janis
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Hi Janis,
We currently do not have anyone in Latvia. Finland or Russia are the two closest. If you know of anyone who would be looking to represent us then we are looking.
What are you interested in. Maybe we can find a way to help.
Haider
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151178)
Part of the solution maybe?
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk