AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: Saturn94 on 18 Nov 2023, 04:04 am
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Every so often I take a look at the Magnepan website. This evening I noticed this
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=258723)
Is this an indication Magnepan is going to start selling direct online?
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It's hard to say, just about everything is saying Sold Out.
I know they've been fooling around with their price structure for the dealers: it went from this is the price to List versus Retail.
Maybe they're rethinking their sales model again.
They had a new speaker or two at the Capitol Audio Fest, a 2.7i and then there's a 2.7x.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-2023-capitol-audio-fest-alan-taffel/
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I imagine the brick and mortar network is collapsing on them as well. I know of only one dealer in all of Western PA. Magnapan might have had one of the most stable dealer networks in America, but I can't imagine how even that could be maintained. My guess is the sales model has been a customer calls the factory who finds the closest dealer to recommend them to and they route the sale through them. I know Butch's Sound Shack in Natrona Heights sells Maggie's, but maybe only 50 to 100 others in the area do. Great folks there btw. So direct sales is where everyone is going, or through Amazon.
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There is no doubt that they learned a lot from selling the LRS+ and the stands on line....shipping and damage issues....customer contact issues....etc., etc.....all of which would make it easier to go to a direct sales model...especially for their smaller speakers.
For their larger speakers which are obviously big and weigh a lot...where people may want to hear them before they shell out $10-20k...where people may want help with delivery and set up...this becomes an issue. As a dealer, would you only want to carry their high end models...maybe?
One good thing is that their speakers are pretty bullet proof and don't require a lot of after sale service because someone blew something up...and are dealers really qualified to do this anyway?
So, what next...I think they will be selling more direct online...which is how younger people buy things these days....so all they need is more social media presence and endorsements and they should have another good 50 years.
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They've done direct sales on the 1.7s before and then all those years with the MMGs.
I'm looking forward to seeing what the deal is with the new speakers, especially the $4000 price hike between the 2.7i and the 2.7x.
Also, is this list price or retail where you haggle?
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One thing we can say for sure....Magnepan uses mystery as a marketing tool. :icon_lol:
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What's behind the curtain?
I dunno, a Bose Wave Radio?
Perhaps we'll see a revised line up before too long.
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I see the page has been updated. No “Pre Order” button, but there is an option to pay in installments. It sure makes it look like Magnepan may be selling direct.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259350)
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They're only showing prices on the little stuff (LRS+, stands).
All will be made clear by Summer 2027...
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I dont understand how this manufacturer still in the business, since the 1980s I see they have the same product:
86dB and 4ohms (3 ohms most of the range) presence of a Crossover more 2 protection Fuses and more midrange and tweeter attenuators. This will require a monster huge amp stable at 2 ohms impedance for safe operation.
If they don't know how to improve the product should talk to someone who knows how to do like Bob Carver or Maggie could licence the great sound Carver Amazing Ribbon 48 or 60 inches tall, 88dB, 8ohms, range 200 to 40kHz as Gilmore Audio do in the past, Amazing dont needed a Crossover in 1992($2400 48inches). Too bad they are stagnant for so long.
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FullRangeMan
I have a buddy with the 3.7i....we have driven them with great success and sound with the Lyngdorf 2170 (digital class d?), Parasound A21, Orchard Audio Stereo Ultra (GanF class d), Sanders Stereo Magtech....all had no problem, all sounded great, albeit a little different from each other. Somehow, I think Magnepan likes the reputation of needing big amps....so that people won't try them with $500 receivers.
Also, I think they have been quietly updating crossovers, tuning buttons, assembly techniques....without ever mentioning it because they really don't want to help the competition.
Now that Jim Winey has retired, it seems like they have new models in the works....but in the Magnepan way, they are slow to update.
In my own case, I have the LRS+ and have had zero issue driving them with a Wells Majestic and with a Pass XA-25
At any rate, I don't think monster amps are mandatory...but those who have Magnepans and have monster amps seem happy with the combination...but so did people driving them with Cherry Amps...and now with Orchard Audio Amps.
I guess one more thought...some say there is a Magnepan sound...and if that is so, it would seem that Magnepan doesn't want to stray to far from that sound....reminds me of Ohm...another company that has lasted 50 years.
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The products have certainly been improved over the years, it's just the basic architecture that has stayed the same.
They may look like the older models but they certainly don't sound that way.
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They're only showing prices on the little stuff (LRS+, stands).
All will be made clear by Summer 2027...
In time for the release of the new woofer system in 2030. :lol:
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FullRangeMan
I have a buddy with the 3.7i....we have driven them with great success and sound with the Lyngdorf 2170 (digital class d?), Parasound A21, Orchard Audio Stereo Ultra (GanF class d), Sanders Stereo Magtech....all had no problem, all sounded great, albeit a little different from each other. Somehow, I think Magnepan likes the reputation of needing big amps....so that people won't try them with $500 receivers.
The truth of the matter is that Maggies do sound better with a high current, high capacitance, high power amp. You can use a $500 receiver to drive them, but you will shut it down at loud volumes on dynamic passages. I have tried various receivers with my 1.6's and original MMG's. They all went into protection mode at moderately loud volumes. Even my Adcom GFR-700 AVR that cost $1500 (225wpc) 20 years ago went into protection mode at least 3 times with my MMG's.
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I know one thing, you gotta be smoking that wacky weed if you're willing to pay those "X" prices over the normal prices, even if you already own the Maggies and want to send them in for the "X" upgrades.
The same if not better performance can be had for pennies on the dollar getting one of Danny Richie's upgrade kits over at GR-Research. In fact, considering Danny's vast knowledge and experience over the many years of redesigning and tweaking crossovers for various high-end loudspeaker manufacturers, I'm willing to bet there's been a lot more engineering and tweaking that's gone into his upgrades than Magnepan's own upgrades, and thus more gains/improvements from Danny's upgrades.
If Magnepan wants to keep coming out with new updated models every few years like they always have, that's fine. But they can keep those overpriced "X" upgraded ones. I'll get my upgrades from Danny.
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I know one thing, you gotta be smoking that wacky weed if you're willing to pay those "X" prices over the normal prices, even if you already own the Maggies and want to send them in for the "X" upgrades.
The same if not better performance can be had for pennies on the dollar getting one of Danny Richie's upgrade kits over at GR-Research. In fact, considering Danny's vast knowledge and experience over the many years of redesigning and tweaking crossovers for various high-end loudspeaker manufacturers, I'm willing to bet there's been a lot more engineering and tweaking that's gone into his upgrades than Magnepan's own upgrades, and thus more gains/improvements from Danny's upgrades.
If Magnepan wants to keep coming out with new updated models every few years like they always have, that's fine. But they can keep those overpriced "X" upgraded ones. I'll get my upgrades from Danny.
“X” prices? :scratch:
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The 1.7X is $4000 more than the 1.7i exc.
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Are you talking about this new 2.7 model which made a brief appearance at the Capitol Audio Show?
Not 1.7, 2.7.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-2023-capitol-audio-fest-alan-taffel/
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Yes. 2.7. I couldn’t find the link to that article. Thanks!
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Until I find another speaker that sounds better to my ears and offers better value than Maggies, I'll stick with them.
Trying to think of successful speaker manufacturers who DON'T update their products incrementally as new engineering and manufacturing processes allow for significant improvements, and I'm having a hard time coming up with that list. (I admit that I'm not an expert on this, because once I landed with Maggies I haven't felt the need to do any speaker shopping.)
Magnepan makes models that sell from around $1,000 up to the top of the line at (I believe) around $27,000, every one of them offering great value at their respective price points according to reviewers.
As a side note, years ago I drove both my MMG's and 3.6R's with a 45wpc conrad-johnson CAV-50 with ZERO problems - nothing shut down and I didn't blow fuses (and best of all - the sound was GLORIOUS).
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The same if not better performance can be had for pennies on the dollar getting one of Danny Richie's upgrade kits over at GR-Research. In fact, considering Danny's vast knowledge and experience over the many years of redesigning and tweaking crossovers for various high-end loudspeaker manufacturers, I'm willing to bet there's been a lot more engineering and tweaking that's gone into his upgrades than Magnepan's own upgrades, and thus more gains/improvements from Danny's upgrades.
And you know this how? I am just playing devils advocate. Magnepan designs their own speakers and I assume have done a lot of R&D for these upgrades. And besides, not everyone is willing to take apart a Magnepan and do the upgrades themselves. I considered doing the GR upgrade for my 1.6's and I am handy with a soldering iron but I am not willing to take the chance that I break something.
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From speaking to them, Magnepan has tried just about everything.
If they can hear the benefits and the cost isn't too outrageous, that's what comes out next.
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The 1.7X is $4000 more than the 1.7i exc.
I found this.
https://www.audioexcellence.ca/blogs/audio-excellence/unveiling-the-magnepan-x-upgrade-program-elevate-your-sonic-journey-with-the-mg2-7i
The price of the X upgrades does seem very steep. :icon_surprised: I can’t see the upgrades listed being anywhere worth the premium charged. :dunno:
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Nothing on their website.
Perhaps by the Spring thaw...
If this X treatment is going to be $4000 (shipping not included), I don't think they'll have too many takers.
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A lot of people have done similar mods themselves, often with outboard crossovers. I can't see anything done in that area being worth $4k. The other question might be why hasn't Magnapan put better components in their speakers all along? Other speaker companies do it without massive retail price increases. My Meadowlark hot rod speakers did the exact same mod for an additional $300, albeit at the time of manufacturer.
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And you know this how? I am just playing devils advocate. Magnepan designs their own speakers and I assume have done a lot of R&D for these upgrades. And besides, not everyone is willing to take apart a Magnepan and do the upgrades themselves. I considered doing the GR upgrade for my 1.6's and I am handy with a soldering iron but I am not willing to take the chance that I break something.
I don't know this, but am pretty sure "this" would be the case. It's what Danny is known for. For years, Danny's had loudspeaker manufacturers come to him for either helping them in the crossover design or leaving it completely up to him to come up with the design... Or to do tweaks to the design to make them better.
Magnepan's crossovers are very basic. I don't believe there's any correction circuits in their "stock" designs to take care of certain dips or peaks, etc, etc. They are just a simple dividing network for bass, midrange and treble (or bass panel, tweeter & super tweeter) as they call it.
Who knows though?... I could be totally wrong and Magnepan addresses the same exact issues that Danny did. Maybe they bought one of his kits and called it their own. I have no idea. But one thing I do know is that you get a heck of a lot more bang for the buck giving Danny $409 for his 1.7/1.7i kit vs giving Magnepan $4000 for their 1.7/1.7i kit to pretty much reach the same result.
I know that Danny's design puts a 2nd order slope on the tweeter as well as run the speaker as a true 2-way (running both "voice coils" in the tweeter in series). I've read elsewhere that Magnepan did the same for one customer's upgrade. I don't know if they do that automatically or just upon request.
Either way, if you don't feel comfortable digging into your loudspeakers, I'm sure you can find a family member, a nearby forum member, a friend or some local shop to perform the upgrades for you for a whole lot less than $4k.
And that's the point of my entire argument really. It's the absurd prices Magnepan is charging for these upgrades. Maybe $1k at best plus shipping both ways, but NOT $4k.
Anywho...
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According to this, they're not exactly quoting a price:
https://www.audioexcellence.ca/products/magnepan-x-upgrade-options
I just ordered some new motorcycle tires and an indoor air purifier so I'm out.
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I'm happy they don't have an upgrade available for the LRS+....I don't have anything to stress over :lol:
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I'm happy they don't have an upgrade available for the LRS+....I don't have anything to stress over :lol:
I bet they'll come out with an upgrade for the LRS+ way before they ever come out with that "woofer-not-subwoofer" thing they keep blabbering about.
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Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..."
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260204)
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Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..."
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260204)
They seriously need someone who knows how to set up a proper website. Their website has been a mess for a long time.
BTW, isn’t that Latin? Is that the webpage for the Vatican? :lol:
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Isn't 12/31 when they hold the Blessing Of The Planars?
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Isn't 12/31 when they hold the Blessing Of The Planars?
:thumb:
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BTW, isn’t that Latin? Is that the webpage for the Vatican? :lol:
It's Lorem Ipsum, dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. https://www.lipsum.com/ (https://www.lipsum.com/)
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It's Lorem Ipsum, dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. https://www.lipsum.com/ (https://www.lipsum.com/)
Ah! I learned something new today. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260216)
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So did I but the Vatican tie in was more entertaining.
Guess we'll see what the new FAQ page looks like sometime next year.
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They've done direct sales on the 1.7s before and then all those years with the MMGs.
I'm looking forward to seeing what the deal is with the new speakers, especially the $4000 price hike between the 2.7i and the 2.7x.
Also, is this list price or retail where you haggle?
Haggle, which as you know is a departure from Magnepan's traditional philosophy. The thing is, the dealers wanted more margin because customers like to haggle. So now you get to pay the same as you did before, but you have to haggle with a dealer before you do. Thank you, dealers. </sarcasm mode>
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I dont understand how this manufacturer still in the business, since the 1980s I see they have the same product:
86dB and 4ohms (3 ohms most of the range) presence of a Crossover more 2 protection Fuses and more midrange and tweeter attenuators. This will require a monster huge amp stable at 2 ohms impedance for safe operation.
If they don't know how to improve the product should talk to someone who knows how to do like Bob Carver or Maggie could licence the great sound Carver Amazing Ribbon 48 or 60 inches tall, 88dB, 8ohms, range 200 to 40kHz as Gilmore Audio do in the past, Amazing dont needed a Crossover in 1992($2400 48inches). Too bad they are stagnant for so long.
Maggies may look the same on the outside, but over the years there have been major changes under the hood, probably the most dramatic being the replacement of the original wire conductors with foil. Most recently, the mysterious "+" technology that dramatically improved the tweeter performance of the LRS.
They're big on mystery. :-) This one has leaked a bit, but since I'm not allowed to discuss it I can only give a wink and a nod.
They will also have the most significant product introductions in -- well, decades -- soon: The CSS, which packs the performance of the gigantic 30.7 into a panel only 12" wide and a small woofer. There will also be an economical dipole sub.
And if Wendell Diller, their head of product development, gets his way, there will be major cosmetic changes on the horizon, too -- the challenge there is that when a company changes the appearance of its product, older customers aren't always happy! These will be accompanied by major changes in the internal construction of the loudspeaker -- basically, a trickle-down from the top-of-the-line CSS -- and they'll be working in the opposite direction, up from the LRS+, with another new type of internal construction. You can expect all speakers in their line to slim down by a few inches, news that will be welcome to long-suffering spouses.
By the way, Jim Croft, one of the designers of the Carver Amazings, now works for Magnepan, and was Wendell's and my partner in crime when we designed the CSS. He was also involved with the development of the BG drivers that are used in the Carvers and some other loudspeakers. If there's anyone in the world who knows more about planar design than Jim, I haven't met him. (I guess I should add that while I was one of the designers of the CSS, I don't actually work for Magnepan -- I'm just a retired audio engineer/audiophile with time on his hands, LOL.)
Finally -- yes, they could increase the efficiency of their speakers, but that would mean using neodynium magnets and those are expensive. Wendell's feeling on that is that it's less expensive to buy a high power amplifier than it would be to buy a more efficient Maggie with neodynium magnets. There are planar speakers from other manufacturers that are efficient, but they cost an arm and a leg.
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I don't know this, but am pretty sure "this" would be the case. It's what Danny is known for. For years, Danny's had loudspeaker manufacturers come to him for either helping them in the crossover design or leaving it completely up to him to come up with the design... Or to do tweaks to the design to make them better.
Magnepan's crossovers are very basic. I don't believe there's any correction circuits in their "stock" designs to take care of certain dips or peaks, etc, etc. They are just a simple dividing network for bass, midrange and treble (or bass panel, tweeter & super tweeter) as they call it.
Who knows though?... I could be totally wrong and Magnepan addresses the same exact issues that Danny did. Maybe they bought one of his kits and called it their own. I have no idea. But one thing I do know is that you get a heck of a lot more bang for the buck giving Danny $409 for his 1.7/1.7i kit vs giving Magnepan $4000 for their 1.7/1.7i kit to pretty much reach the same result.
I know that Danny's design puts a 2nd order slope on the tweeter as well as run the speaker as a true 2-way (running both "voice coils" in the tweeter in series). I've read elsewhere that Magnepan did the same for one customer's upgrade. I don't know if they do that automatically or just upon request.
Either way, if you don't feel comfortable digging into your loudspeakers, I'm sure you can find a family member, a nearby forum member, a friend or some local shop to perform the upgrades for you for a whole lot less than $4k.
And that's the point of my entire argument really. It's the absurd prices Magnepan is charging for these upgrades. Maybe $1k at best plus shipping both ways, but NOT $4k.
Anywho...
The main limitation on the sophistication of Magnepan's crossovers is that you can only fit so much in a narrow panel! Older models actually had more complex crossovers, but they required an external crossover box that as those who remember them know was PITA. The "X" models get around this by putting a box on the back.
Honestly, speaking from experience, the way to go isn't with any of this, but with bi-amping and an electronic crossover. Maggies just love to be bi-amped. Here's the paradox -- the current x.7 models, the ones with the first over crossover entirely within the panel, can't be bi-amped, not without opening them up and rewiring them, anyway. Unfortunately, only a handful of customers bi-amped, and they decided that the benefits of a series crossover outweighed the ability to bi-amp.
Magnepan will make pretty much any mod you want to the speakers. Needless to say, they charge for the privilege!
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I bet they'll come out with an upgrade for the LRS+ way before they ever come out with that "woofer-not-subwoofer" thing they keep blabbering about.
Nah, I know what they're discussing and a new LRS+ ain't on the list. There will certainly be .8's, but it's still at the stage of deciding what the changes will be, so I wouldn't look for them soon. The big thing that will affect the LRS+ is a low-cost dipole woofer. The combination of the dipole woofer from the CSS with the LRS+ is apparently amazing, but that woofer will be too expensive, so they're developing a less expensive one.
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Haggle, which as you know is a departure from Magnepan's traditional philosophy. The thing is, the dealers wanted more margin because customers like to haggle. So now you get to pay the same as you did before, but you have to haggle with a dealer before you do. Thank you, dealers. </sarcasm mode>
Sorry to see Magnepan go this route. I hate the haggling game. Why should the price be based on one’s haggling skills? :thumbdown:
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Seriously. But what can they do? They were successful as an outlier for many years -- low margins, no nonsense. But things have changed. Old-line stores have closed, and many of the stores that remain open survive by selling what Wendell calls "audio jewelry" to the rich. They aren't run by audiophiles anymore, the kind of person who would be excited by a piece of gear and promote it to his customers because of that.
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Selling direct online is a way of remaining competitive on the international market, smart companies want to sell to every countrie. National sales are not enough to keep companies making a high profit.
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They do have international distribution. But I know they have been talking about direct sales. Their problem is that what sells Maggies to people who haven't heard them is the sound. As Wendell put it, no one is going to put a huge panel in their living room if they haven't heard it. And shipping them so people can try -- not really practical. Which is what the LRS program is about.
Personally, I think they should consider a direct sales program in which they give compensation to a local audiophile for demoing their speakers.
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They do have international distribution. But I know they have been talking about direct sales. Their problem is that what sells Maggies to people who haven't heard them is the sound. As Wendell put it, no one is going to put a huge panel in their living room if they haven't heard it. And shipping them so people can try -- not really practical. Which is what the LRS program is about.
Personally, I think they should consider a direct sales program in which they give compensation to a local audiophile for demoing their speakers.
I fear if they continue to cling solely to the audio dealer model (there are so few left, and not a single one in my state anymore) they will eventually disappear.
Using local owners to offer auditions is something Salk use to do (though Salk didn’t offer compensation). I agree it’s a good idea.👍
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They do have international distribution. But I know they have been talking about direct sales. Their problem is that what sells Maggies to people who haven't heard them is the sound. As Wendell put it, no one is going to put a huge panel in their living room if they haven't heard it. And shipping them so people can try -- not really practical. Which is what the LRS program is about.
Personally, I think they should consider a direct sales program in which they give compensation to a local audiophile for demoing their speakers.
no one is going to put a huge panel in their living room if they haven't heard it.
I dont see it as a prob, the Magnepan real prob is mouch worse than it, namely very low impedance of 3Ω and low sensitivity of 86dB.
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Well, it won't work with a receiver. The MMG was originally designed to work with receivers, but that required a sonic compromise. The thing that made the transition to the LRS possible was the Schiit Vidar! A cheap amp that can drive Maggies just fine.