[mix4fix]

We can't have an intelligent conversation if you disregard state and national laws that are firmly rooted in the Constitution. It's like talking with someone who swears unicorns are real, but when you correct them with facts and science, they demand more proof when they have no evidence whatsoever to support their claim that unicorns exist.
     

No. You can't have an intelligent conversation because you can't do so without insulting people.

[rbbert]

...Most of the vaccinated don't want to go, the un-vaccinated just want to be included, and the rest here are people who just jumped to this thread to insult people and trash this thread.

Apparently you don't understand what you read; the unvaccinated are free to go, they merely have to wear a mask (just like the vaccinated) and provide a negative COVID test.

[mix4fix]

Obviously you weren't near a Florida hospital in August or September

Then, why would you fire doctors and nurses if it is that bad?

Again: heroes last year, garbage this year.

[Tyson]

I'm still (patiently) waiting for an answer to my question.  It touches on constitutional rights, which I figured you'd be pretty comfortable answering.  I'll re-post it here, in case you forgot:

So as best I can tell you either:
a) Don't think that this is true that your rights end when they result in harm to others
or
b) You don't think staying un-vaxxed puts others in harm's way

So which is it?  Or is it both?

[mix4fix]

Apparently you don't understand what you read; the unvaccinated are free to go, they merely have to wear a mask (just like the vaccinated) and provide a negative COVID test.

We are back to square one: I will wear the mask. If I am infected, I need to stay home. If not, I should be allowed to participate.

You guy realize that you can enter the hotel with just a mask? I can go next door to Safeway, a place with food, and I will only need a mask. So what makes certain parts of the hotel special?

[rbbert]

Then, why would you fire doctors and nurses if it is that bad?

Again: heroes last year, garbage this year.

Nope, simply good medicine.  If you can't understand the reasoning that is your problem.

[rbbert]

... So what makes certain parts of the hotel special?

If you can't understand the reasoning that is your problem

[mix4fix]

I'm still (patiently) waiting for an answer to my question.  It touches on constitutional rights, which I figured you'd be pretty comfortable answering.  I'll re-post it here, in case you forgot:

So as best I can tell you either:
a) Don't think that this is true that your rights end when they result in harm to others
or
b) You don't think staying un-vaxxed puts others in harm's way

So which is it?  Or is it both?

Do you think getting the vax will protect you from spreading Covid? Natural immunity has no defense on ones health?

1. One person get's vaccinated - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF.
2. One person dosn't get vaccinated but has natural immunity - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF

Explain how the non-vaccinated is the bad guy?

[Tyson]

Do you think getting the vax will protect you from spreading Covid? Natural immunity has no defense on ones health?

1. One person get's vaccinated - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF.
2. One person dosn't get vaccinated but has natural immunity - picks up Covid and brings it to CAF

Explain how the non-vaccinated is the bad guy?

Before we get to the vax specific questions, can we at least establish (firmly) that you are free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't result in harm to others?  Do you agree with that? 

[mix4fix]

Nope, simply good medicine.  If you can't understand the reasoning that is your problem.

It is "good medicine" to reduce the amount of qualified medical personnel? it is not like you can replace these professionals like that. They are not cheap labor. What about the emergency room over-runs?

[rbbert]

..
2. One person dosn't get vaccinated but has natural immunity

implicit in this question is how does one demonstrate natural immunity?

[rbbert]

It is "good medicine" to reduce the amount of qualified medical personnel? it is not like you can replace these professionals like that. They are not cheap labor. What about the emergency room over-runs?

The answer to this complicated, but boils down to not putting patients at increased risk.  If you have education in virology, infectious disease and immunology you will understand the logical steps leading to this conclusion.

[mix4fix]

Before we get to the vax specific questions, can we at least establish (firmly) that you are free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't result in harm to others?  Do you agree with that?

Of course. I said that to the other guy. If I am sick, I will not attend CAF. I have to rest. You guys seem to think that just because people don't want to be vaccinated, our intent is intentionally harm people. It is not.

Can you answer my latest question: does being vaccinated ensure that you don't spread Covid?

[rbbert]

Of course not, that is part of the reason for the mask requirement.  However, despite what is claimed in many social media posts (and related disinformation), the risk of spread from an unvaccinated person is far greater than from a vaccinated one, beginning with the increased likelihood of infection for an unvaccinated person.

[mix4fix]

implicit in this question is how does one demonstrate natural immunity?

Let's make it simple: one does not get sick or die.

And can we keep responses together?

The answer to this complicated, but boils down to not putting patients at increased risk.  If you have education in virology, infectious disease and immunology you will understand the logical steps leading to this conclusion.

Those same medical personnel risk their lives for a year and a half. Aren't the patients the risk since they are the ones with Covid?

The medical personnel should be the ones worried.

[Tyson]

Of course. I said that to the other guy. If I am sick, I will not attend CAF. I have to rest. You guys seem to think that just because people don't want to be vaccinated, our intent is intentionally harm people. It is not.

Can you answer my latest question: does being vaccinated ensure that you don't spread Covid?

Hey, we agree on something, see that's great!  So, we agree that you are free to do what you want as long as you don't put others in harm's way. 

I will answer your question in a bit, I promise.  But I feel like we haven't established enough basic common ground yet.  We've made headway so far (and even come to an agreement!), so let's continue. 

Now, how about that vaccine.  Do you think it actually works?  If people get the shot, does it actually reduce their chance to get sick by 10x?  What's your thoughts?

[rbbert]

Let's make it simple: one does not get sick or die.

And can we keep responses together?

Those same medical personnel risk their lives for a year and a half. Aren't the patients the risk since they are the ones with Covid?

The medical personnel should be the ones worried.

Do you think you actually responded to either of these issues?

Not everyone in the hospital or ER has COVID, and those patients should not have to risk getting it from hospital workers.  "Not getting sick or dying" has no correlation with immunity to COVID19.

[mix4fix]

Hey, we agree on something, see that's great!  So, we agree that you are free to do what you want as long as you don't put others in harm's way. 

I will answer your question in a bit, I promise.  But I feel like we haven't established enough basic common ground yet.  We've made headway so far (and even come to an agreement!), so let's continue. 

Now, how about that vaccine.  Do you think it actually works?  If people get the shot, does it actually reduce their chance to get sick by 10x?  What's your thoughts?

No. I don't. There are other stuff that is better if you get sick. Should I be force to take it if I am not sick? I though the down time last year was supposed to help us?

Didn't we establish that those who are vaccinated are scared of being sick for some reason? If people are vaccinated, they should be safe, right?

[Tyson]

Again, you didn't answer my question.  I didn't ask you if getting the vaccine makes you better if you get sick.  I asked if you think that the vaccine protects you from getting sick in the first place.  Well?

[mix4fix]

Do you think you actually responded to either of these issues?

Not everyone in the hospital or ER has COVID, and those patients should not have to risk getting it from hospital workers.  "Not getting sick or dying" has no correlation with immunity to COVID19.

In a Covid discussion, you said that hospitals are slammed full of patients, but said not everybody has Covid. Then a broken bone has no bearing on this discussion.