Do I Need Power Conditioning?

ajzepp · « **on:** 13 Dec 2011, 04:15 am »

I saw someone mention the reduced price on some of the Belkin PureAV conditioners, so it reminded me to ask you guys about what I currently have.

A few years ago I picked up a handful of these things for a great price ($20/each)
TrippLite LS606M

I have been using these for my HT gear since that time, and have never had any sort of "hissing", or any noise coming through my speakers. I thought they were just surge protectors when I bought them, but apparently they have some conditioning properties, too?

Anyway, what level of quality are these and is there any point in upgrading? If I were to upgrade, what are some recommendations? And how do I know if I have a problem?

ajzepp · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Dec 2011, 09:24 pm »

*crickets*

neekomax · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Dec 2011, 10:22 pm »

Save your dough for speakers.

ajzepp · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Dec 2011, 11:30 pm »

Quote from: neekomax on 21 Dec 2011, 10:22 pm

Save your dough for speakers.

golfugh · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Dec 2011, 11:46 pm »

Give Dave at PI Audio Group a call, he has a circle here. He may have a demo available. Give an Uber Buss a try and see/hear if you need something. I can't speak to what you have, but Dave's stuff is very well received.

Mark

jtwrace · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Dec 2011, 12:23 am »

Quote from: ajzepp on 13 Dec 2011, 04:15 am

I saw someone mention the reduced price on some of the Belkin PureAV conditioners, so it reminded me to ask you guys about what I currently have.

A few years ago I picked up a handful of these things for a great price ($20/each)
TrippLite LS606M

I have been using these for my HT gear since that time, and have never had any sort of "hissing", or any noise coming through my speakers. I thought they were just surge protectors when I bought them, but apparently they have some conditioning properties, too?

Anyway, what level of quality are these and is there any point in upgrading? If I were to upgrade, what are some recommendations? And how do I know if I have a problem?

The only way to know is to try something else. Dave at PI Audio would be a great place to start (or end).

ajzepp · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Dec 2011, 04:54 am »

Thanks, guys...I will definitely check out PI Audio

Barry_NJ · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Dec 2011, 04:20 pm »

I picked up 2 of the Belkin PureAV PF60 units. I put one up in my living-room on the; LCD-TV, X-Box, Blu-Ray, and Stereo Receiver. My son asked what happened to the TV, he said it looks better than it used to. Down stairs I feel I'm getting a darker background, better dynamics, and more 'Air' from my system. I'm very happy with the results I've gotten from the $250 I spent on the 2 Belkin PureAV PF60 units that I bought. The prices seem to fluctuate, so if you keep an eye on them you may be able to get a better deal than is currently available as the price increased a bit a couple of days after I bought them...

Belkin PureAV PF60 on Google Shopping

Folsom · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 04:30 am »

You can't even understand what power conditioning will do for you tell you have experienced it. I know people that claim they have clean power but... give them power conditioning for a week, take it away, and watch the confusion on their face.

To me no system is worth beans without one unless it runs on batteries. It is the cornerstone of a low fatigue system you actually want to listen too.

People think they don't have a problem with noise because they "can't hear it". Often it is an improvement on the existing sound, and not a removal. As you may guess their idea about "removal" has little to do with how it all works.

Although my opinion of most power conditioners, very different story.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 04:44 am »

If you want clearer sound, a clearer picture, use a conditioner.
The conditioner will increase clarity, though the downside is by reducing the 'smear' in the lower frequencies, they may seem to be reduced. In fact the Bass is more natural, and less 'wooly, but it may bother lots of folks that the sound seems 'thinner'.
this has been my experience owning over the years:
(3) Adcom AC515, 315
Monster Cable 5000
Monster Cable 7000ss
Monster AVS2000
PS Audio PPP
PS Audio P600
Furman REF20i

I now ony use the PS Audio P600 and the Furman REF20i

TONEPUB · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 04:48 am »

If the bass sounds thinner, you have an ineffective power conditioner.

jtwrace · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 12:08 pm »

Quote from: Destroyer of Smiles. on 4 Jan 2012, 04:30 am

Although my opinion of most power conditioners, very different story.

You're allowed to give opinions in this circle too.

Mitsuman · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 12:33 pm »

This Furman unit is a good way to dip your toe in the water. It should give you an idea if it's going to help in your system. ( I think it will

)

http://www.amazon.com/Furman-M-8x2-Merit-Power-Conditioner/dp/B003BQ91Y6/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1325680325&sr=1-3

tim92gts · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Jan 2012, 02:40 pm »

It could be worth logging your power supply for a while first.
If there are significant voltage variations a high spec source could help.
Cap storage iirc is proportional to voltage squared.
Some amps give a power output for different real voltages.

When i logged my nominal 240V power supply i had some illegal dips of up to 32V
and a few highs as well.

RF is another issue which i don't have significantly any more; the Bryston amps seem to
have cured that problem.

Folsom · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Jan 2012, 02:12 am »

Quote from: jtwrace on 4 Jan 2012, 12:08 pm

You're allowed to give opinions in this circle too.

The only power conditioner I believe in is the style I make. Long ago on the board the ideas where rejected for poor reasons (biases). The other members went on to build their own, later one began to sell them (feels like LOTR tail or something). People tried them, they helped. However the two of the three people that have bought one from me didn't purchase to "try", - they tried my prototype - they bought them because they couldn't go on being an audiophile without them. The third bought one on blind faith because he was my late grandfather. However one of the original two purchasers has since entirely stopped buying audio equipment. Now he buys music.

Audience Adept AR series are like a cute toy version of what I like.

If bass sounds thin you either have a too restrictive power conditioner, or more likely you have exposed a flaw in your system. Companies rely on bad sound qualities to make up for other qualities. Sooo you know... you control the bloat of the bass when you accept a non-power conditioned situation, and refine your speaker/source/amp to counter-act this inherit bloat. You are artificially creating what in theory should of already been according to measurements.

I think companies do this with most of their goofy power/interconnect/speaker cables too. The industry seems nearly based off of it since many engineers feel most eccentric audio ideas are not going to benefit the listener; yet people choose them for some reason. A sort of careful balancing of correction, over correction, and under correction. It seems clear when you hear some really high end stuff that sounds more refined than your personal experience recording in a studio of equal quality, or of experiencing the musician or another playing the same acoustic instrument right in front of you. Now it might be a subjective matter, maybe you want to hear more than ever intended in a skewed way. Personally I get off on tonality, dynamic range, and separation; all of which are pretty natural compared to nuances. I think power conditioners provide the most of what I like in a quality but no over corrected system.

The only way to know if your power conditioner is really doing something serious, is if you can sit in front of your stereo so long that fatigue is so far away even with some decent volume (maybe more than your use to now), that you will find other reasons to get up hours later; like bathroom break, food, job, whatever has nothing to do with being "done listening to music" or "tired of listening to music". You can easily fall asleep even with moderate volume, if you are tired. What you hear is just beautiful because its music; even when its not your cup of tea. Otherwise it is like sex without an orgasm; you love to do it, but you are always looking for ways to improve the experience because you are looking for more right afterward (but may of tired out) instead of feeling fulfillment.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Jan 2012, 04:04 am »

I guess I have it right by "Destroyerofsmiles".
Since I listen to music every day for at least 10 hours a day.

I retired a few years ago, spent a bundle on new stuff instead of a new car (to the chagrin of my friends)
So with the stuff I have now i am please to listen all this time, zero regrets.

JDUBS · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Jan 2012, 05:51 am »

Quote from: Destroyer of Smiles. on 5 Jan 2012, 02:12 am

The only power conditioner I believe in is the style I make. Long ago on the board the ideas where rejected for poor reasons (biases).

Can you detail the construction of one of your power conditioners? Pics would be great, if possible, too.

Thanks,
Jim

Folsom · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Jan 2012, 08:00 pm »

I don't have any pictures at the moment of a more current one. I use a certain amount of noise suppression capacitors, CMC's, and very importantly earth to ground capacitors. I think Mapleshade use to have an article about power conditioning with the use of capacitors from neutral to ground. I am having trouble finding it. It was certainly many years ago.

The real discrepancies are between the amount of capacitance to use (if you asked Audience they would say the type so they could charge you for Teflon), and when to use or not use a CMC and of what size. I just use Vishay noise suppression capacitors. The amount of capacitance is more important than the quality of it. This is why Audience Adept AR series are only cute. Also the isolation idea is not as worthwhile as they make it out to be, between sockets. It does less than filtration for the whole unit to a higher degree. Although I suppose I could build a unit that had individual capacitance for each socket; it would be enormous though, like the size of two or three conditioners.

It sounds odd but the more of a load you put on your conditioner, the less power it will consume (it becomes more efficient).

In one build I used a ton of Bybee's. The refinement that came with that was perhaps more a matter of taste, not a matter of conditioning. Although on a more clutsy system it made bass articulate in new ways.

jtwrace · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 Jan 2012, 08:11 pm »

Do you make them for resale or just personal use?

Folsom · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Jan 2012, 10:40 pm »

I have not made it into a retail business, but I do build upon request. Retail business requires a few things, some laws on shipping electronics, etc.

If I lived somewhere that had more people, more interest, I would try to demo more. I gave an attempt at a local venue one time but the sound guy was an idiot. (he even said, "well I am using way less compression on the guitars" - and that was just having one on the stage)

They are not cheap to sell, but to make they are not bad. Still pricing with mark up to make money instead of at cost, comes out way below competition. If you make one yourself you can do things like fore-go X1/2 rated capacitors and things like that. (I use them for insurance reasons, couldn't care less about a capacitor tripping a breaker or failing inside a metal box, but if anything ever happened to a house with unrated equipment, well, they will find a way to not pay out.)