AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: WillyP on 3 Jun 2019, 08:08 pm
-
Hi James / Stan / Mike,
When I tried to watch a movie my SP3 didn't lock. The HDMI LED was red and no matter what I tried, nothing did help. The LED is red and stayed red. Is there anything else I could try?
Thanks,
Willy
-
Hi Willy
I will forward for you.
james
-
Hi James,
Still waiting for support from Bryston...
-
Hi James / Stan / Mike,
When I tried to watch a movie my SP3 didn't lock. The HDMI LED was red and no matter what I tried, nothing did help. The LED is red and stayed red. Is there anything else I could try?
Thanks,
Willy
Hi James / Stan / Mike,
Yesterday I had the same problem: The SP3 doesn’t lock. It is impossible to watch a movie now.
Please help!
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Hi all,
I have checked all connections, especially those for HDMI. Not an easy task because all my gear is enclosed in a cupboard. I found out that the HDMI connection was a bit loose. After some fiddling and rearranging the HDMI LED is green now. Let’s hope it stays that way.
The HDMI connection is infamous because of these issues but I don’t quite understand why this problem occurs from time to time. All cabling is within the cupboard, normally out of reach for everyone. My HDMI cables are from a first-class manufacturer, we are not talking here about no-name cables from an anonymous manufacturer. Perhaps I should replace my cables for HDMI cables with a tighter fit.
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Hi all,
I have checked all connections, especially those for HDMI. Not an easy task because all my gear is enclosed in a cupboard. I found out that the HDMI connection was a bit loose. After some fiddling and rearranging the HDMI LED is green now. Let’s hope it stays that way.
The HDMI connection is infamous because of these issues but I don’t quite understand why this problem occurs from time to time. All cabling is within the cupboard, normally out of reach for everyone. My HDMI cables are from a first-class manufacturer, we are not talking here about no-name cables from an anonymous manufacturer. Perhaps I should replace my cables for HDMI cables with a tighter fit.
Kind regards,
WillyP
Try Pangea cables, they really grip well and are bargain priced.
-
Cable weight can do it alone.
There are a few aftermarket options on Amazon, and I'm sure elsewhere, that assist with HDMI staying put.
Perhaps fasten wires to a wall, etc so there isn't any sag on the connections?
-
Thanks for the answers, guys. Much appreciated. I think I will have to buy new HDMI cables.
I am a bit disappointed that I didn’t get any serious response from Bryston (James, Stan or Mike). And not for the first time.
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Sure, try the Pangeas, let us know if it works out. Can you ship it back to bryston under warranty if it doesn't help?
-
Hello, witchdoctor,
Pangea cables are hard to buy in the area where I live. My dealer has Audioquest and if necessary, I can swap them for other cables. This is the easiest option for me.
I do not know if it is a problem with the SP3, this time. The unit is 2 years old now so leaving 3 years of warranty. As this is my second unit already I do hope that changing the cables will solve this issue. It only shows up now and then so it would be very difficult for an engineer to track down the problem, I guess.
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
I've use AQ interconnects with good results, let us know if it solves the issue.
-
A few days ago I replaced my trusty old Transparent Audio HDMI cables with Audioquest Chocolate cables. As far as I can say, I saw no difference in picture quality. There was a small difference in sound quality: the sound was a bit more open. Not very much, but it was audible.
Until now the SP3 has locked every time, without a hitch. Let's hope the situation stays that way.
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Hi all,
I have been using the new cables for about a month now and unfortunately, the problem is still there. From time to time the SP3 doesn't lock after I have powered on my TV, SP3 and Blu ray player in that order, as recommended in the manual of the SP3; changing the order doesn’t make a difference. The HDMI LED is red and stays red. The only thing that helps is a power off/on cycle and then the SP3 will lock.
There is another problem, though, that is worse. Even when the HDMI LED is green, that does not imply that the SP3 is successfully locked. Sometimes I can hear severe distortion coming from my loudspeakers and a power off/on cycle is necessary.
What makes things difficult, is that these issues occur randomly and not very often. They are not linked to a certain CD or DVD and - coincidence or not - I can’t remember that the lock problem ever happened when playing a Blu ray.
I am afraid it is very difficult for a technician to track down the problem. Last month I played a CD or DVD almost every day and the lock issue occurred about 4 to 5 times. The problem with the distortion, when the HDMI LED is green, while the SP3 hasn’t locked, drives me mad. We all know the stories about a device that is sent to a qualified technician, who can’t find anything. The device is returned after a few weeks and back home the problem is still there. That would be a complete nightmare for me.
In the next coming weeks, I will use a good quality coax cable between the Blu ray player and the SP3. I hope to find out if there are still problems with locking (probably not) or the distortion. At the moment I am not sure if the problem is caused by the HDMI board or the DAC board. Also, it will be a possibility for me to compare the sound quality between the HDMI and the coax connection. In theory, the latter is of lower quality, but perhaps the difference is insignificant or acceptable.
Is there something else I could try? Where is Stan Bleszynski when you need him?
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
The BIG problem is that the light is green indicating lock and then you get distortion. That doesn't seem like a cable issue to me. There are workarounds but this should not be happening and will greatly depress the resale value of your SP3. I recommend shipping it to Bryston for repair. If it gets worse you might experience even bigger issues.
If you want a workaround I'll post one, let me know.
-
Witchdoctor, thanks for your reply. What are the bigger issues? And what is the workaround? The 7.1 output from the Blu ray player?
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Here is a work around but its better to get your SP3 fixed. This Essence DAC has an HDMI in and will send HD/ 4K video to your display via HDMI and has 7.1 analog outs that would send the audio to your SP3 via single ended analog inputs. This has the added benefit of making your SP3 4K ready. The DAC was reviewed in Stereophile and the reviewer preferred it the DAC in his Marantz 8805 processor (Marantz flagship). The bigger issue IMO is it may be the HDMI board needs replacing, not just the port:
https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/evolve-ii-4k-hdmi-v2-0-7-1-channel-dac/
-
^ LOL. So.... buy a new DAC. That's your "workaround"?
Typical salesperson.
-
@willyp:
Have you tried checking the physical integrity of the connectors (jacks) on your SP3 (and also on your sources -- TV etc)? There might be some solder issues inside the unit, at the connector/circuit board joint; you will know only by opening up the unit and doing a visual/manual check. Sometimes it can be nothing more than a loose connector. Did you try jiggling the cable after it is connected, to see if the distortion varies? It seems like your problem initially was solved with a new cable, and then reappeared, as you stated. Could be a mechanical issue with a loosened connection over time. Worth checking before shipping back to Bryston. Just a suggestion.
good luck.
-
^ LOL. So.... buy a new DAC. That's your "workaround"?
Typical salesperson.
You mean typical lunatic.
-
witchy pooh.
-
You mean typical lunatic.
This would not only be a work around for an SP3 that has a fried HDMI board, it would also be an upgrade to 4K . Gbaby, I realize you probably don't own a 4K display yet but the prices are now coming down and encourage you to get out to Best Buy and look around. Here is the review of the dac:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-98-trinnov-altitude-32-essence-evolve-ii-4k-page-2
-
BTW, how come someone from Bryston hasn't posted a solution? :oops:
-
BTW, how come someone from Bryston hasn't posted a solution? :oops:
Busy posting rave reviews:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164484.80#msg1786507
8)
-
Busy posting rave reviews:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164484.80#msg1786507
8)
Too busy pitching their stuff to take care of their customers?? Not exactly a good excuse.
It is a sad day when my $300 receiver has a better HDMI board than a $$$ processor and the witchdoctor needs to do "tech support" instead of a company rep. Maestro why don't you help the OP out instead of busting my chops?
-
It is a sad day when my $300 receiver has a better HDMI board than a $$$ processor and the witchdoctor needs to do "tech support" instead of a company rep.
Maestro why don't you help the OP out instead of busting my chops?
There is no evidence that your HDMI board is better than the SP3's board.
I enjoy doing both :lol:
-
Would be helpful (unless I missed it) to know what components are in the chain of connections (e.g. player, TV). Some things may be known to have issues. I have a Sony (55 inch) UHD TV in one room that drove me nuts with both momentary occasional video dropouts for a couple of seconds here and there as well as having network connectivity issues in that room and also audio dropouts when playing music over my network from an Oppo 203. After changing network switches (e.g. tested all the in-wall cables with a tester too) and a bunch of other things, I discovered that the TV requires a constant handshake so it is something related to the TV. Not really a big issue now as that room is my UHD room and back-up 3D room and probably in about 60 days or I'll be getting one of the 2020 65 inch models of TVs coming along with a Panasonic DP-UB9000 and the current TV and player will get moved to the upstairs bonus room which is basically a guest bedroom (and I go up there a couple of times/year to use that system) To listen to files via the network from the Oppo, I either have to leave the TV on or disconnect the HDMI cable. I use that bedroom more for daytime TV (as the other rooms have lots of light). I only have about 9 UHD movies and I probably only use the room to listen to music a handful of times/year. Up until last week when a small Windows 10 PC bit the dust, I had a small computer monitor connected to the PC (and to a separate DAC) and my network to play files just to avoid the handshake issue. When I get the Panasonic, I'll just do something else with the DAC since I'll use that to play files the few times/year I listen to music in there.
I formerly used expensive pre/pros and personally at this point, I'm not a fan (it's OK if it is someone elses thing). I've had integrated AV systems with 2-channel preamps with HT Bypass (and the system I noted above has that feature and gets used) and get refurb receivers at places like accessories4less.com. Surround technology changes much more rapidly than old school 2-channel and I use separate amps to drive the left and right channels and I like the results I get for both 2-channel and movies. While my main system has a preamp with HT Bypass, when I watch a movie, I just borrow the amp from the above noted secondary system (my main system speakers are difficult to drive and the main system is too diffiicult to get behind the equipment) and plug in the left and right outs from the receiver preamp outs and I'm good to go. When surround technology changes, I can always find a use for my current Onkyo 3100 in the main system by rotating it to another system (and then I can add a couple of more channels that system for fun) and get something refurb with the latest and greatest.
If possible, I'd try your current Bryston pre/pro (either in your house or somewhere else - e.g. dealer, friend) in another system with other components. That way you can narrow down whether the problem is the Bryston or it's combination with other things. Unless one has a space problem (and I understand that), one would be far better off dollar wise with a quality 2-channel preamp with HT Bypass (e.g. BP-17 if Bryston is your preference) bought either new or used and then get a good receiver with the features and channels you want.
-
Phil, I agree. My man cave has a 9 channel Onkyo receiver at less than $400 which I'll recycle in a few years. The main system has a music streamer using the analog outs to the pre/pro instead of HT bypass.
-
Thanks all for your messages, especially Phil, who took the time for such an extensive answer.
I once had a 2-channel amplifier with HT bypass and an AV receiver. It had two disadvantages: watching a movie was a bit complicated, not for me, but for my partner and the sound quality in 2-channel mode was on a far higher level than in surround mode. The AV receiver was the best receiver I could buy for reasonable money.
That is why I decided to go for a processor / amplifier combination with superior sound quality in both modes. The old combination never had the issues like I am having now. It worked like a charm, always. No problems with handshaking, distortion or whatever.
I have kept the Blu ray player: a Primare BD32 (first version). All other audio devices ware traded in for what I have now: the Bryston SP3 / 9BSST2 combination. My TV is from Loewe, made in Germany. Audioquest HDMI cables are used for the connection between the BD32 and the SP3 and between the SP3 and the Loewe TV.
The problems with locking are without exception in the audio domain. I have never encountered problems in the video domain, the picture quality is always excellent.
I also have an audio streamer, with built-in DAC and headphone amplifier. The streamer is in use for 2-channel music and for watching a movie in the late hours. When I hear distortion with the SP3 I can check with the DAC of my streamer if the distorted sound is caused by the Blu ray player or the software. Until now, every time I have checked, the sound was clean. That is why I don’t think the problem lies within the Blu ray player.
One of the DVD’s that was causing trouble in my setup was tested in a completely different setup and again, the sound was clean.
HTH
WillyP
-
Willy - just curious if you've used things like a Harmony remote for the significant other? I use them in all my systems (even though it is just me). When I use HT Bypass in that UHD system, it is programmed for that input (have a Sherbourn preamp in there). When I listen to 2-channel music, it is programmed for the CD input (obviously wouldn't work if the 2-channel preamp is not remote controlled). If you do a search, there are some posts about handshake issues on the brand of TV you have (I've seen it once in a store here many moons ago) - e.g. https://www.avforums.com/threads/loewe-hdmi-problems-help.1752469/ So it is possible that the TV is causing an issue. The other thing you may be able to do if you want to keep what you have is try an HDMI audio de-embedder (Amazon carries them and I guess they are now referred to as HDMI audio extractors). There's a long old thread in the discless circle as prior to computer/music server playback I used one to get 24/88.2 out of my old Oppo BDP-83 and into my (old Bryston BDA-1) DAC (and upsample to 176.4. Basically it would pass thru the HDMI to the TV for video and then have a coax digital connection coming into your Bryston. If you get something that is returnable (and they are not expensive) and it doesn't resolve the issue, you could always send it back.
I just like the freedom when receiver technology changes to go out and get something with the latest and then taking the main system receiver and rotating it to upgrade something. For example, I'm using an old Onkyo 1008 in the master bedroom (had lightning damage a few years back and moved it from my office). I use 2 channels for the outdoor speaker from that room. I have in-ceiling speakers (5.1 set-up) but also wouldn't mind at some point something more modern and use the rear in-ceilings as Atmos channels. I could also rotate it to that UHD system (using a Marantz 5010 and the rear in-ceilings as Atmos channels and could easily add front Atmos speakers). When I had expensive pre/pros and then got dated, there isn't as much of a market for them. I just find it easier to rotate and then give someone an old receiver. Makes me happy to get something upgraded and then be able to help someone out.
I used a Bryston SP 1.7 for a long time in the main system (and the analog outs of an Oppo into its multi-channel inputs). I did like having just one piece. Then after I sold the Bryston (which didn't have the greatest market value), I picked up a used Integra (DTC 9.8) pre/pro. Of course it didn't touch the Bryston for music but was way better. That's how I ended up with the Onkyo 1008. Bought it for the basement system in the old house. Then for a bit it was in the main system for HT. Then for a bit in the office system for 2-channel (I like something decent when I either sample music I'm interested in buying or extracting dsf files from ISO files created from SACDs). Then after the lightning damage I moved it to the bedroom. I'm waiting for 4k ultra short throw projectors to get a little bit more flexible and cheaper and then I'll upgrade the main system (pic below) and rotate the Epson 5030 projector to the bedroom and won't have a pole hanging down in the main room). I'm hoping for next year (I'll watch CEDIA in September and probably get the room painted sometime within the next year).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177428)
-
I should add if you decide to go the router of the HDMI audio de-embedder (extractor), that way back when the thread was active (it is here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0), there may be some helpful information. For example, while many of the de-embedders are inexpensive, some may find the better ones like the Atlona mentioned in the first post may have features like EDID (Google it). Audio/video is not like the old days. Many moons back and before even stereo VCRs I had surround sound. I'd get a kick out of how amazed people would be by such simple devices with no issues (I had a Pioneer TVX-9500 like this one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-TVX-9500-TV-SOUND-TUNER-/183406127210 which would tune in TV channels in hifi or dual mono and then I'd send it to a time delay like this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/KOSS-K-4DS-DIGITAL-DELAY-SYSTEM-INTEGRATED-AMPLIFIER-Perfect-Working-Condition-/323546444972 to power rear channels and simulate larger spaces) vs. copy protection today which makes it tough.
-
Thanks again for the replies, Phil. Much appreciated. Food for thought, although I have to read more about extractors, embedders, etcetera.
A universal remote could have made things easier for my partner, but I never had one. With a pre/pro all she has to do is choose the right input. That shouldn't be too difficult.
At the moment the situation is as follows: an HDMI cable between my Blu-ray player and TV; a digital coax cable between my Blu-ray player and my SP3. I hope to find out if the issues I’m having are related to the DAC board or the HDMI board of the SP3, or that it is a problem with handshaking between the Blu-ray player and the SP3.
I have tested this only for a short time, but until now there are not any issues. The TV locks immediately and so does the SP3, without distortions, glitches or other nasties - knock on wood!
This method has its disadvantages: I can’t play the SACD layer of SACD’s (I have about 100 of them) and in theory, the sound quality of Blu-ray’s is not as good as it used to be., although opinions are divided on this. It takes about 15 minutes for me to change the cables so an A/B test is not possible. I will test the new situation for about a month, or less, to find out which method I like best.
What is the advantage of an HDMI audio extractor under the given circumstances? Can you explain that to me, Phil? My Blu-ray player has outputs for HDMI, coax and 7.1. Isn’t this is the same as what such an extractor does? I never had locking issues with the video signal so there is no need for a device for that purpose.
Here and there I have read that under given circumstances it would be possible for an extractor to send the audio signals of an SACD to the coax output. I always thought that it was forbidden, but this would be a welcome addition if it is legal.
Kind regards,
WillyP
PS Nice setup! Very nice indeed.
-
Willy - old Oppo players allowed one to convert SACDs to 24/88.2 and also allowed full 24/192 from DVD-As. As far as I know, Oppo was the only which would pass 24 bit and do this (and the later players wouldn't do that. The rest truncated the output to 16 bit and the newer players would limit what came out of the coax output. I have an old Integra (DPS 6.9 - in a spare system and only used if someone brings over a CD) which can do 176.4 but I had John Gatski of Everything Audio Network (a great review site) test it with his ADC/Sample Rate Converter and it was passing 16/176/4. The long thread I put in the prior post goes into some of that. John was instrumental in getting Benchmark to put the bit rate read out on their DACs. I'd think that the Blu-Ray player would be more limited as to what it would pass via coax digital (vs. HDMI), but it will probably do 48khz. HDMI is a one way digital connection done for copy protection purposes.
As I noted the problem could be the TV. My Oppo 203 will not play audio without drop-outs if the TV isn't on due to the handshake issue. That's why I suggested seeing if the TV has firmware updates or try the same combo of things on a different TV (either in the store, another TV in your house or at a friends). Once you eliminate the TV as the potential issue, then other things can be looked at. Does the Blu-Ray player have settings for HDMI audio? I mentioned EDID (and I realize the thread is long) but some of that is noted in the specs here - https://atlona.com/pdf/manuals/AT-HD570_V4.pdf
I also remember reading (could be wrong as it was early in the product release) that the SP3 will just do 24/88.2 from SACDs via HDMI. That's why I asked about audio settings (e.g output SACDs as PCM). If the settings are not correct, you won't get sound from the SACD layer of a disc. I know Oppo has a host of them as do most players. I've been into file only playback for many years (I take the disc image from the SACDs and then extract the dsf file and these days it's few and far between as almost all of the dsf files I get via a purchase of a download - I might but a disc here or there). There's another whole long thread (which you don't need to read) about taking SACD discs and converting them to files. If the cables are a pain to change (and I understand that as I have that with my main system big time), then look at the settings and try different things.
-
btw - from the Primare manual "HDMI is a single cable that can transport both audio AND video from your player to your display. Be aware, however, that HDMI is an evolving standard, and there could be compatibility issues." The player also apparently has one HDMI output which is recommended for use of their video processing and another for other stuff. Have you tried one to the TV and the other to the SP3? That is also noted in the manual - "You can use the included HDMI cable to connect the HDMI 1 output to your HDTV and use another HDMI cable (not included) to connect the HDMI 2 output to your receiver." HDMI audio setting would appear to be on page 25 of the manual. Page 26 talks about LCPM rate limit and page 27 has charts about the set-up. There's lots of sites that offer other tips - e.g. - http://www.stereoandvideorepairco.com/Troubleshooting/HDMITroubleshooting.html
-
There are also posts which may (or may not) be helpful. For example - http://support.bryston.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=284 or https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1421006-official-bryston-sp3-thread-16.html or https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1381958-bryston-sp3.html or https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/bryston-sp3-processor-review/ ("Of course hitting the Stereo button causes the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake which further delays listening to the movie. A similar problem occurs when listening to the balanced inputs. If you press the HDMI button while on the balanced inputs, the SP3 looks for an HDMI signal and won’t play the analog signal. All of this is very obvious of course, but it can be very confusing if you aren’t clear on exactly which input and which mode selection is to be used for the desired result. If you accidentally press the wrong button, it might take a moment or two to remember why you aren’t getting the expected result and you might find yourself waiting on the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake. This is also a challenge to explain to the not so technically savvy members of the family who might be using the SP3").
I realize some of the threads are really long. Over the years, I've had or helped others with HDMI issues. It is often a hunt and peck process. That's why now with my main system being too hard to get to the back of the components, I just move an amp from a secondary systems and have longish RCAs coming out of the receiver (the preamp outs) to go into the amp. I have one back-up system that is an integrated AV system with HT Bypass, a system in the master bedroom (5.1 and that systems feeds the outdoor speakers) a 4.0 system upstairs (basically a guest room), a back-up two channel system and the office system
-
…
As I noted the problem could be the TV. My Oppo 203 will not play audio without drop-outs if the TV isn't on due to the handshake issue. That's why I suggested seeing if the TV has firmware updates or try the same combo of things on a different TV (either in the store, another TV in your house or at a friends). Once you eliminate the TV as the potential issue, then other things can be looked at. Does the Blu-Ray player have settings for HDMI audio? I mentioned EDID (and I realize the thread is long) but some of that is noted in the specs here - https://atlona.com/pdf/manuals/AT-HD570_V4.pdf
…
Thanks, Phil, for all your trouble. To be honest, I don’t think the TV is the culprit. Before the Loewe, I had a Pioneer LCD TV and I was having the same issues. The Loewe has the latest firmware. There are in the setup menu for the Blu-ray player two options for HDMI audio: LPCM and Bitstream. The latter is my preference by far: the sound quality is better and fewer issues with distortion. For the coax output, I have the same options but LPCM is only available in 2-channel stereo as you know so for movies Bitstream is the preferred choice.
btw - from the Primare manual "HDMI is a single cable that can transport both audio AND video from your player to your display. Be aware, however, that HDMI is an evolving standard, and there could be compatibility issues." The player also apparently has one HDMI output which is recommended for use of their video processing and another for other stuff. Have you tried one to the TV and the other to the SP3? That is also noted in the manual - "You can use the included HDMI cable to connect the HDMI 1 output to your HDTV and use another HDMI cable (not included) to connect the HDMI 2 output to your receiver." HDMI audio setting would appear to be on page 25 of the manual. Page 26 talks about LCPM rate limit and page 27 has charts about the set-up. There's lots of sites that offer other tips - e.g. - http://www.stereoandvideorepairco.com/Troubleshooting/HDMITroubleshooting.html
This is exactly what I did when the SP3 arrived. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. When using the HDMI connections the SP3 will only lock if it is part of a chain, with a source and a TV or projector. It is possible to send the video signal (without audio) directly to the TV with an HDMI cable and the audio signal to the SP3 with a coax cable. That is the situation now. Of course, I have read the manual of my Primare. More than once.
There are also posts which may (or may not) be helpful. For example - http://support.bryston.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=284 or https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1421006-official-bryston-sp3-thread-16.html or https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1381958-bryston-sp3.html or https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/bryston-sp3-processor-review/ ("Of course hitting the Stereo button causes the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake which further delays listening to the movie. A similar problem occurs when listening to the balanced inputs. If you press the HDMI button while on the balanced inputs, the SP3 looks for an HDMI signal and won’t play the analog signal. All of this is very obvious of course, but it can be very confusing if you aren’t clear on exactly which input and which mode selection is to be used for the desired result. If you accidentally press the wrong button, it might take a moment or two to remember why you aren’t getting the expected result and you might find yourself waiting on the SP3 to renegotiate an HDMI handshake. This is also a challenge to explain to the not so technically savvy members of the family who might be using the SP3").
…
I have also read the manual of the SP3 and the corresponding documents, so I am well aware of its contents. It is time for a new, structured manual for the SP3 with all options explained. It is a mishmash now and there are several menu options that I don’t understand.
Thanks again for your help,
WillyP
-
Hello Phil,
how are you? just curious if you hear any difference in sound quality between the original SACD against the dsf extracted from it
thanks
-
...
This is exactly what I did when the SP3 arrived. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. When using the HDMI connections the SP3 will only lock if it is part of a chain, with a source and a TV or projector. It is possible to send the video signal (without audio) directly to the TV with an HDMI cable and the audio signal to the SP3 with a coax cable. That is the situation now. Of course, I have read the manual of my Primare. More than once.
...
Would it be possible to fool the SP3 with an HDMI dummy plug, so it looks like a display is connected? Or can I expect handshake issues?
WillyP
-
Hello Phil,
how are you? just curious if you hear any difference in sound quality between the original SACD against the dsf extracted from it
thanks
That would of course be dependent on a number of factors. For example, what is one using for SACD playback. I've owned things like an old (Modwright tube) modded Sony XA-777ES, Marantz DV9600, a (solid state modded Modwright) BDP-83, etc. So I can't speak to every SACD player out there. Also, it is dependent on what one is playing back the file with and what DAC they are using. I can tell you from what I've owned the sound quality is better from the dsf file. I've used Windows 10 music servers with JRiver (playing back the decoded file from memory) and I currently use a Lumin U1 with an EMM Labs DAC 2X in the main system. I still use a Windows 10 music music server (with a Hegel Integrated amp/DAC) in a secondary system. I also have Oppo players (a couple of 103Ds and a 203) and prefer the file playback (which is currently from an NAS unit in my office). So I can't make a blanket statement that it is going to be that way for every SACD player (e.g. PS Audio made a Perfectwave Transport that played discs, including SACDs, from memory like a PS).
-
yes, that makes sense.
Thanks for sharing your experience
-
Would it be possible to fool the SP3 with an HDMI dummy plug, so it looks like a display is connected? Or can I expect handshake issues?
WillyP
I guess the question is how sound would be getting to the SP3 (coax?). The player you have has a secondary HDMI connection. Have you tried using that (unless I missed it) to get sound? I also mentioned EDID. I don't know tons about it and I know some of the threads I posted are really long. I know that some have benefited from an HDMI de-embbeder with EDID built in (the thread is old here on Audio Circle and long so you would have to read through it). There are also devices like - https://www.black-box.de/en-de/i/13491/HDMI-EDID-Emulator(EDID-Ghost)/ I'm certainly not a video expert (I just read too many audio forums and have owned too many things in the past). I guess with all the things I've owned (the Sony XA-777ES was $3k retail and I bought it barely used for $1.7k and then the tubed mod was $2.6k) and had experience with (had a friend who worked at a hifi shop and for about 6 years I did virtually every delivery and install with him so I've seen lots of stuff audio and video), while I do recognize that my preferences aren't necessarily good for everyone, I've just come to the conclusion for me expensive pre/pros and disc spinners are things to avoid. I've literally seen $20k (or more) disc spinners that are door stops at this point (once the drive is no longer made the manufacturer isn't going to take that old technology and write new software for a new drive and drives are typically only supported for several years) and processors (e.g SP2) that sell for 10-15% of retail, which is insane as something like the SP2 is basically the functional equipment of the BP25 preamp in 2-channel. I personally find it very easy with my Onkyo TX-RZ3100 when I decide to upgrade the main system (no plans in the immediate future) at some point to rotate it to a secondary system (e.g. like the system below where I'll be getting a 65 inch UHD in a couple of month and then adding front Atmos speakers and having extra channels to power the garage speakers on the other side of the wall) and then whatever is left over from the end of rotating things to other systems to give to someone who needs it. I realize that doesn't work for everyone. I've seen some nice expensive things at the recent Florida Audio Expo and of course I'd love to own them but some of the prices on higher end stuff is just too rich for my blood.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205561)
-
This is a thread with many, extensive replies, so I think it is time for a recapitulation. We are talking about handshake issues with my SP3, which are very irritating.
We have an AV cabinet, that was specially made for us and which we like very much. It has room for six devices and has six power outlets. It is for this reason that I am looking for an easy solution, without too many complications.
Old situation:
Blu-ray player -> HDMI -> Bryston SP3 -> HDMI-> TV
+ best audio quality
+ plays SACD layer of SACD’s
- issues with handshake
New situation
Blu-ray player -> HDMI -> TV
Blu-ray player -> coax -> Bryston SP3
+ no handshake issues so far
- in theory, not the best audio quality
- only plays CD layer of SACD’s
Optional
Blu-ray player -> HDMI -> TV
Blu-ray player -> HDMI -> Bryston SP3 -> HDMI dummy plug
This is possible because my Blu ray-player has two HDMI ports for output.
In all cases (HDMI and coax) audio is sent in Bitstream format.
I will try the new situation for about a month, to see what I like best. At this moment, I would say that having no handshake issues is more important for me than a slight loss in audio quality.
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Makes sense to run the HDMI to the TV and coax to the BDP3.
WillyP if I were in your shoes I would ditch surround and upgrade to immersive audio. The SP4 is $$$$ but there are plenty of threads here to discuss less expensive alternatives. Technology has come a loooong way since the SP3 was introduced and it may be time for a refresh. Make sure you get all 3 codecs, Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro 3D.
-
Witchdoctor, my wife will kill me for that! No doubt about it. Don't get me wrong, she allowed me to have a very nice setup, but more than 5.1 is a no-no, also because our living room is not very big. That is why I opted for the best 5.1 configuration I could afford and - apart from the issues we are talking about - I am very pleased about it. The SP3 is two years old and I would lose a lot of money when I had to sell it now.
Another thing to consider is that the prices for Bryston are in Europe much higher. An SP4, for example, will cost you about 22.5000 USD.
Most of the time I am listening to 2-channel music and the Bryston is perfect for that and I have no intention to buy another pre-pro. I was well aware of its limitations when I bought it, so I am not complaining.
WillyP
-
Willy, if the Blu-Ray player has analog outs, you can just run a set of cables to another input on the SP3 to hear the SACD layer (of course you'll be using the DACs from the player). If the player set-up menu allows one to toggle on and off (the manual would imply that you can toggle the primary HDMI output to either 1 or 2) things you probably can also run an HDMI cable from the second HDMI out of the player to another HDMI input on the SP3 to listen to SACDs. With the Oppo players, one can convert DSD to 24/88.2 so you can try to see if there are setting for PCM conversion. Also, if you can get an HDMI de-embedder that is returnable, you can give that a try.
-
Also, don't forget to follow the instructions for HDMI on page 26 of the SP3 manual. It's probably also possible to play media (e.g. hi-rez files) via the USB input. Yes, it means getting those SACDs converted to files but it can be done.
-
...
Also, if you can get an HDMI de-embedder that is returnable, you can give that a try.
What is the main function of the HDMI audio de-embedder? Improve handshake between the source and the pre/pro? Or better sound quality via the audio output of the de-embedder?
WillyP
-
I already recommended the Essence DAC which will extract the audio via HDMI:
I powered up the Essence Evolve II-4K HDMI DAC with its only control set to LPCM 7.1 CH and confirmed that the video was passing through to the pre-pro via HDMI. To hear the output of this little DAC, all I had to do was switch the pre-pro to the analog 7.1 input. Even more amazing is that Qobuz, Roon, and JRiver all recognized its presence as Extractor, capable of exclusive mode (WASAPI) audio in multichannel at up to 24/192
I was skeptical enough to be surprised that the Extractor worked so well—but I was stunned that it sounded so good. How good? I liked it better than sending the audio via HDMI through the Marantz and its DACs. It seemed just noticeably cleaner and more open. Perhaps a little bright, but not to any great detriment. Compared to HDMI or network input to the Altitude 32, though, it didn't quite make the grade.
You say you want more for your money? (Cue the carnival barkers!) Well, step right up: You don't even need a fancy 4K display, or any display at all, to use the Essence Evolve II-4K HDMI DAC . . . er, Extractor. I took it back to my New York apartment and hooked it up to the second HDMI port on my Baetis Prodigy-X server. Since the main HDMI out is connected to the 27" system monitor, I didn't want to mess with it, even though that meant the Extractor would not have anything connected to its HDMI output. Now, in the weird and wonderful world of HDMI, there is handshaking between devices that allows them to function compatibly. This handshaking is an EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) code informing the source of the target device's capabilities. This smart little processor actually has the ability to generate an EDID6 that tells the source that a hi-rez display with multichannel audio is connected. To fool the source, just keep the switch to the far right.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-98-trinnov-altitude-32-essence-evolve-ii-4k-page-2
-
What is the main function of the HDMI audio de-embedder? Improve handshake between the source and the pre/pro? Or better sound quality via the audio output of the de-embedder?
WillyP
The thread I posted previously is super long and old. Basically, it was designed for people who had players for SACD for instance which could take 24/88.2 or PCM up to 192 out of a player designed more for video and pass it on to DAC via coax (and they have 5.1 pass thrus for HT). There's a review here that sort of sums it up - http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2013/01/audiophile-review-oppo-bdp-105.html There's also info on the Essence noted in the post above here - https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/hdacc-ii-4k/ On my 4k set-up my mini PC just bit the dust (for the 2nd time and I'm leaving it) and for now I have the coax coming out of my Oppo 203 into my Teac UD-501 DAC and I also have HDMI going out to the receiver and then from the receiver to the TV. Due to the fact the TV needs a handshake I could either disconnect the HDMI cable from the back of the Oppo (it's not horrible to get to) but I usually just turn the TV volume all the way down and the analog left and right channel of the DAC goes into a 2-channel preamp (that has HT Bypass for movies) on a different input from the Bypass one. As I noted earlier you probably can get 24/88.2 (?) from an SACD out of the player and then just go into the player setting (since it is difficult to get to the back of your equipment) and turn off HDMI audio (from the player menu) when you listen to an SACD.
-
After some fiddling with the cables, I have made a combination of the old and the new situation. It is now possible to compare the video and the audio quality of the different options. My Primare BD32 Blu-ray player has two HDMI outputs: HDMI 1 can be configured for video only and HDMI 2 is for audio and video.
Option 1:
BD32 -> HDMI 2 -> Bryston SP3 -> HDMI-> TV
Option 2:
BD32 -> HDMI 1 -> TV
BD32 -> coax -> Bryston SP3
Until now I have made the following observations.
The audio quality (when the SP3 has locked successfully!) with option 1 is better than with option 2. This means that my old ears can hear the differences between DTS-Core and DTSHD-MA of a Blu-ray. Not very big, but they can easily be heard.
The video quality with option 2 is better than with option 1. It could be because I am using the better HDMI cable in option 2 (at the moment I don’t have enough HDMI cables of the same quality, I need three of them and they are not cheap). It is also possible that there is a difference in video quality between the HDMI 1 and 2 ports of the BD32. In the manual HDMI 1 is recommended for video. Perhaps changing the cables gives more info on this, but as have told before, this is not an easy task.
The question is, of course, what do I prefer? Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so I decided to give both options a try. I have watched The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey with both options and I asked myself, what did I enjoy most? Without doubt, that was the option with the better video quality and the audio quality that was slightly less.
It may be possible to improve the audio quality in option 2 but then another round of fiddling with the cables is necessary and I can’t say I am looking forward to doing that. I am now using a coax cable between the BD32 and the SP3 but I also have an AES/EBU cable with even better quality. In this situation, an A/B comparison is not possible so I am a bit undecided if it is worth the trouble.
I also have a dedicated CD player and of course, I made another comparison. What will give the better sound quality of an SACD, the 2-channel layer when played with my BD32, which can play the 2-channel and multichannel layers of an SACD, or the CD layer of my CD player. I have tested a few SACD’s only, but the BD32 won. With CD’s the outcome is the opposite, the CD player won. That is why I bought the CD player in the first place.
WillyP
-
What inputs/outputs (1-7 / 1-2) are you using on the SP-3?
-
The Blu-ray player is connected to the HDMI-1 input (also to the D1 input); the TV is connected to the HDMI-1 output of the SP3.
WillyP
-
If you're using the upgraded 4K HDMI board, use HDMI inputs 5-7 and see if that makes a difference in picture quality.
Even if it is the original board, give it a go and try HDMI 7 or 8
-
Hello, Grit, thanks for the answer. My SP3 has the 4K HDMI board. I have waited for almost a year for the new board to arrive. What makes you think that HDMI ports 5-7 can make a difference?
It would have been more comfortable for me if the inputs of the SP3 were numbered - instead of labelled - with the option to give the names in software.
WillyP