AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?

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guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #120 on: 28 Apr 2005, 12:30 am »
Quote from: boead
Absolutely, I just hate it when people tell me I’m a moron to ‘believe’ or that what I trust (my ears and brain) are being fooled by placebo. That’s just bullshit!
And yes, I listen to an enormous amount of music. I could listen to an old Sony walkman and a cheap pair of headphones if I had to but fortunately I don’t.

Short Story:
One of my dogs (a Boxer) nearly ate my Sennheiser HD600’s, I guess she wanted a little snack! I fixed them but had to replace the cord which is thinner then kite string. I ...


Well, I think you and I are more in agreement here than not. I really did not want to say this, but I guess I will, it really astonishes me sometimes how designers of gear have there biases. Probably not exactly here, but you'd almost think they were deaf and couldn't hear the differences between two cables. lol. Yeah, I know there are differences. I haven't really been active in audio for many years,  but when I've listened to cables some were definitely better than others, and in some cases night and day. My only point was to hopefully quiet this thread, to say that Frank feels that cables are a lot of bull and in some cases I think I could even agree. But in a lot of other cases, the sound improvements are astonishing. A lot of people in this particular circle feel the same way as he does. So let 'em have their own opinions. If they can't hear the differences, well, that's their loss or gain, depending on how you look at it.

So, Frank if you just happen to be reading this piece from me, I'd go to each of the cable vendors we have here on AC and ask them to lend you a pair of each of there respective interconnect or speaker cables. As a manufacturer, you could say you were looking for the best cable that would be cennerjictly correct for your gear. Some of the vendors here know what they are talking about and again I would start with them. When there have been some of the cable shootouts here on AC your equipment was definitely in the mix.  I think you'd find out rather quickly, your gear is better than you might have possibly believed it ever could be. If I understand correctly, if you have been using typical junk cable. Rad Shack cable is for starters, then you still have some learnin to do. I have taken those double blind tests. I have even done them triple blind, ... because you see,  I am blind. .

Ray

Ray

guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #121 on: 28 Apr 2005, 12:47 am »
Quote from: orthobiz
About Frank VA: "Hell, he might think brown polyester leisure suites are hip!"

I don't think I've ever seen a picture of Frank, but I'd venture to guess he's a better dresser than James Bongiorno in the current Stereophile!

Hey Frank, post a picture of the design team on the website! How about pics inside the lab/factory? Anyone else agree?

biz


Well, as to what he wears, that's his business. We've ragged on him enough.

Ray

WEEZ

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #122 on: 28 Apr 2005, 02:39 am »
You know guys, I think that all this talk about cables and cords is like splitting hairs. Every cable or cord might have a slightly different sound- but most of the time the difference is subtle. Some cables really screw-up the sound.

We audio/music geeks sometimes get into a never ending pursuit of perfection and we're not sure when we've gotten there. We tend to listen for sounds instead of music. Sometimes we even forget what real instruments sound like.

We listen to a recording we haven't listened to in a while and wonder where the bass went. Chances are, there wasn't any bass in the recording to start with.

Or we play a recording that sounds bright and edgy and we blame the amp or the speakers or the go*d@m cables. We read somewhere that cable X tames the 'grit' and we're first to jump. Two weeks later we complain that our system is dull.

I submit that today's audio makers have created equipment that is so transparent that in some cases, what we really hear is the work of recording engineers screwing around with the 'sound' in the studio to the extent that by the time it gets played on our stereo- it no longer has a chance to sound real no matter what we do.

 :o

On another forum someone said that 'you just need to listen to better recordings'. Fine, but an excellent recording of sh*tty music is  still sh*t.

I posted earlier in this long-ass thread that the best cable is one you can't hear. I stand by that statement. If it 'colors' the music- it's wrong. The music should provide the color. Not the cable. Not the equipment.

Live music sounds warm sometimes. Sometimes it sounds bright. Sometimes music is smooth. Sometimes it's harsh. Some of us want to make everything sound the same, it seems.

Hearing differences in cables is not the same as hearing improvements. The 'best' cable in the world can't make a bad system good. I guess the 'best' cable could make a good system better. But if there was a 'best' cable- then I guess we would all be using it, now wouldn't we.

I guess we all hear a little differently, so the debate will rage on. But really, guys- a cable or cord ain't gonna make chicken salad outta chicken sh*t.

We should really be hoping for a new Transcendence "8" pre-amp.  8)

WEEZ

guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #123 on: 28 Apr 2005, 02:51 am »
Quote from: WEEZ
You know guys, I think that all this talk about cables and cords is like splitting hairs. Every cable or cord might have a slightly different sound- but most of the time the difference is subtle. Some cables really screw-up the sound.

We audio/music geeks sometimes get into a never ending pursuit of perfection and we're not sure when we've gotten there. We tend to listen for sounds instead of music. Sometimes we even forget what real instruments sound like.

We listen to a recording we haven't listened ...


Hi Weez, Well, ultimately, what I hope everyone is looking for is equipment that gets out of the way and just plays damn good music. Cables are only a tweak to hopefully no colored sound. You make some valid points. So I'll go away and go back to lurk mode, where I can learn about the products in this and other circles. When I have the thousands of dollars to buy this good stuff, I will buy. Meanwhile like you, Weez I'll be patient and wait for the Trans 8 and whatever else Frank and his team cooks up.  

Ray

avahifi_lj

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #124 on: 28 Apr 2005, 01:19 pm »

skrivis

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #125 on: 28 Apr 2005, 01:52 pm »
Quote from: Ray Bronk
Well, I think you and I are more in agreement here than not. I really did not want to say this, but I guess I will, it really astonishes me sometimes how designers of gear have there biases. Probably not exactly here, but you'd almost think they were deaf and couldn't hear the differences between two cables. lol. Yeah, I know there are differences. I haven't really been active in audio for many years,  but when I've listened to cables some were definitely better than others, and in some cases night and day. ...


Of course designers have their biases. That's why their designs are different from someone else's. :)

Quote

So, Frank if you just happen to be reading this piece from me, I'd go to each of the cable vendors we have here on AC and ask them to lend you a pair of each of there respective interconnect or speaker cables. As a manufacturer, you could say you were looking for the best cable that would be cennerjictly correct for your gear. Some of the vendors here know what they are talking about and again I would start with them.


Frank did something like this in the past. It was reported in Audio Basics.

As for the vendors knowing what they're talking about, that may be, but very few seem to be good at sharing that knowledge. I see a lot of "sounds great" and pseudo-science.

Much of the pseudo-science is at the level of homeopathic "medicine."

Latch onto something that is so subtle that it only effects transoceanic cables, then puff it up to be a "real" problem at 1 meter lengths.

That's how we got oxygen-free copper and linear-crystal or whatever they call it, and silver wire to kill vampires.

Once you're there, you wander off into speculation that the color of the insulator effects the "sound" of a cable.

It's one thing if you actually design a cable. You're seeking certain characteristics, or seeking to improve certain parameters. You can then communicate that to your customers, and even perhaps offer advice on whether the cable will be suitable for their use.

But most just listen and arrive at "sounds great." That's crap. It's just as valid for me to listen to the same cables and pronounce that they are the root cause of AIDS. (See, now you know. AIDS is due to Monster Cable. Before we had Monster Cable we didn't have AIDS, and my careful listening has determined that stereo systems using Monster Cable cause minute changes in the germ plasm, and this produces AIDS.) (I just picked Monster because it popped into my head. I'm not seriously suggesting that Monster Cable has any effects at all. This was just a joke, not fact, and not intended to be seen as libelous by any lurking attorneys.)

Would you fly in a plane that had been "modded" by some of these people? People who don't do any objective testing? I can just see it, a 767 with so many gonzo caps and gonzo wire that the access panels won't close. The SR-71 Blackbird was really fast, and it was black. Therefore, planes go faster if you paint them black. I'm going to demand that United paint all their planes black so I can arrive more quickly.

Teflon is relatively low in terms of coefficient of friction. Therefore we'll just add it to our motor oil and the engine will run smoother forever after.
Oh, it clogs up the oil filter? Oh, it doesn't actually adhere to bearing surfaces? Oh, it starts to decompose (undergo pyrolysis) at engine temperatures? My bad.

I know what the response will be. "But Cable XYZ sounds better." Wonderful. You've still been snookered because there are far better places to put your time and money.

Charles Calkins

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #126 on: 28 Apr 2005, 01:56 pm »
Yo! Frank!!

  Are you still using Kimber Kables?


                     Cheers
                       Charlie

WEEZ

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #127 on: 28 Apr 2005, 08:39 pm »
Hey Ray,

Don't go into 'lurk mode', for crying out loud  :nono: !

You know, I've read the AVA newsletters off and on when I get time and they really are a good read. While some of it is dated- the basics never change. I had read the 'cable challenge' piece before; but when I re-read it again after Larry's post- I realized I had missed the part in there where the AVA preamps can drive a 10k/1000pf load without linearity problems.

Anyway, the cable/cord discussions and debates will likely continue and that's fine with me.

I like Cardas cable better than Kimber cable. Why? Because to me, it sounds more natural. Some say it's too warm sounding. Maybe so. I tried a power cord, or two from both. Tried real hard to hear improvements. Heard none. So there.

But, believe me- I've tried some esoteric stuff from a company that shall remain nameless to protect the guilty- and it was just plain awful.

WEEZ

guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #128 on: 29 Apr 2005, 12:13 am »
Quote from: skrivis
Frank did something like this in the past. It was reported in Audio Basics.

As for the vendors knowing what they're talking about, that may be, but very few seem to be good at sharing that knowledge. I see a lot of "sounds great" and pseudo-science.

Much of the pseudo-science is at the level of homeopathic "medicine."

Latch onto something that is so subtle that it only effects transoceanic cables, then puff it up to be a "real" problem at 1 meter lengths.
That's how we got oxygen-free copper and ...


Hi Well, I too have questioned some of the fancy 1000 dollar cable and asked my self why. There does seem to be a difference in sound between copper and silver. Why, perhaps it's a better conductor? A lot of the points you raise are valid. I'll reread Frank's stuff. One designer I'd probably go to first is Steve from Empirical Audio. I think he has really looked in to the proper design of cables. Designers of any gear including Frank are not gonna tell you exactly how the stuff works, lay out a whole schematic for you. Maybe, because of the way his stuff functions, that cables are not as crucial in how his stuff sounds. Why one cable might sound better than another is anyone's guess, ;and I am not a designer. So I'll just listen carefully, and try to buy wisely.

Ray

guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #129 on: 29 Apr 2005, 12:16 am »
Quote from: WEEZ
Hey Ray,

Don't go into 'lurk mode', for crying out loud  :nono: !

You know, I've read the AVA newsletters off and on when I get time and they really are a good read. While some of it is dated- the basics never change. I had read the 'cable challenge' piece before; but when I re-read it again after Larry's post- I realized I had missed the part in there where the AVA preamps can drive a 10k/1000pf load without linearity problems.

Anyway, the cable/cord discussions and debates will likely continue an ...


So Weez, who is the guilty party?

Ray

guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #130 on: 29 Apr 2005, 12:41 am »
Quote from: avahifi_lj
Hi:

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1990-01_cables.htm

Larry


Hi Larry, good rea, definitely good read. Now, ... I would take that same challenge and change it a bit, and repost it to a general circle. There are probably about a half a dozen manufacturers/vendors that sell or supply cable to buyers. See if you get any different results. I'd repost it for you, but I'd remove some of the obvious negative comments like well, I don't expect any results, and so on. or I'd (you should) PM these various vendors, and see what you get. If you just place out there an honest challenge, keeping all of the opinions out of it, and let's see what happens.

Ray

WEEZ

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #131 on: 29 Apr 2005, 10:43 pm »
Hey Ray,

Well, I try not to trash products on public forums- and my post regarding Kimber was not intended to trash them. I just think Cardas is more natural and less 'juiced' than Kimber. Believe me, the difference between Kimber and Cardas is subtle.

The 'guilty' party I referred to shall continue to remain nameless 'cause like I said- I don't like to trash anybody; and maybe some people actually like the stuff I tried. ( hard to imagine )

I will simply say the that cables is not their primary business but their claims of sonic bliss is not only false- but the sonics will take your system back to the days when you tried to listen to vinyl with a worn-out stylus.

They make some other accesories, however, that are quite nice indeed.

I still think that cables and cords are over-hyped. If you can't 'hear' the cables in your system- then you've got good ones.   :|

WEEZ

guest1632

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AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #132 on: 30 Apr 2005, 12:02 am »
Quote from: WEEZ
Hey Ray,

Well, I try not to trash products on public forums- and my post regarding Kimber was not intended to trash them. I just think Cardas is more natural and less 'juiced' than Kimber. Believe me, the difference between Kimber and Cardas is subtle.

The 'guilty' party I referred to shall continue to remain nameless 'cause like I said- I don't like to trash anybody; and maybe some people actually like the stuff I tried. ( hard to imagine )


OMG, now that's bad. So you got me curious, PM me with the name. I promise not to tell.  

Ray
I will simply say the that cables is not their primary bu ...

boead

AVA T7-EC - Power Cords?
« Reply #133 on: 30 Apr 2005, 03:00 am »
Quote from: WEEZ
The 'guilty' party I referred to shall continue to remain nameless 'cause like I said- I don't like to trash anybody; and maybe some people actually like the stuff I tried. ( hard to imagine )...


Yeah, I feel the same way about the band U2 and Bruce Springsteen… How the hell could anyone actually like that crap?

Well maybe my taste is different then theirs – Maybe….